Show dogs can't see
 What's the dill, pickle?  |
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WCLARKE wrote: What's up with this. The "show dogs" are so fluffed up with all their hair covering their eyes. Nobody could see through all that hair, to herd sheep or keep from walking into a wall.
What's the dill, pickle? Oh, one of my pet peeves 
OK, first of all - the illegal substances part? Even if you adhere strictly to it (and with a good coat, you can and should - well, you should anyway, but...), you need to tease the hair right above their eyes back to within an inch of their lives and then spray it with hair spray until it sticks (or maybe you're better at teasing than I am - says she who has had the same hairdoo for going on 40 years...all of it one length, never teased or sprayed once) That's part one. Here comes the stupider part: You need to take them to conformation class (preferably) and teach them to trust you to gait them almost blindly...They won't like it at first. They're not stupid...That means train them as you will show them... I neglected this with Mad who spent her entire first go-around as a puppy (indoor show) leaping over imaginary jumps because all she could see were where the mats had been taped together. (She got the point anyway. What can I say? Not much competition. Not a proud moment) Mind you, when you show them for real, when you take them down and back or the judge asks you to go around, you take a brief moment to smooth the hair back out of their eyes and hope their momentum keeps it that way. I will tell you that a true working dog finds this terribly annoying and quite possibly embarrassing 
Kristine |
| It's very sad that their beautiful eyes aren't visible. |
| I always do a hard tease right above each eye in hopes that there are 2 little portholes for the eyes. Doesn't always work but it's the best solution I've come up with. |
Would it be neat if they could have top knots. Maybe with a pretty bow or clip. Maybe not, it would lead to painted nails to match.  |
liz rodes wrote: Would it be neat if they could have top knots. Maybe with a pretty bow or clip.
Maybe not, it would lead to painted nails to match. ROTFLMAO
Poor Blind Doggies.  |
| This is a part of the presentation and is meant to complete a perfect picture and when we are honest about it show people are proud when the vitors to the shows give you compliments regarding how nice the sheepie looks. When I have to walk or run with her I put a small clip in their hair to keep the eyes free, this done in Europe and most Judges have accepted it, although "Misty" will walk fine without the clip. As Kristine points out just a matter of training. |
| I do the hard tease to hold the hair up above the eyes, mine really don't care if they can see or not. Others sometimes use a little slide clip if they have ones that like to see when on the move around the ring.
It's about the overall balance of the dog, big round butt, big round head.
Here she is with the boofed up head, she has tease just above the eyes and can see, still has her beard toggles in till we are ready to go into the ring. 
 |
Both Lisa and Stewart are right - it's part of the presentation and a topknot ruins the pictorial balance of the dog. (Big head, big butt). Besides, I not sure which would be worse: working dog who can't see or working dog wearing pretty pink bows. How humiliating!!! Part of me wishes we were permitted to slip a clip on for the purpose of moving them here in the US, but in my case that would just mean one more thing to fumble with. 
The whole hair in eyes issue WAS a real issue for OES obedience competitors (it's hard for a dog to jump when he can't see the jump, you know?) In 1975 OESCA established its first obedience committee (of one, I suspect ) The first chair was Yvette Neary. Her first order of business was to work for OES to be allowed to show in obed with their hair tied back.
I quote from Companions, Competitors & Clowns (by Barbara Foster, 1983; pp38-39) The [OESCA obedience] committee tried to convince the AKC to allow the OES to be shown in obedience with the hair tied up out of the eyes. The American Kennel Club stated its position firmly. The Bobtail could not be exhibited in obedience with any foreign substance in the hair or coat. If exhibitors wanted to tie the hair back, the Old English Sheepdog Club of America should change its breed standard specifically to allow showing this way. And that wasn't going to happen. Some time in the 80s the AKC did change their stance about this for all breeds affected, thank god. And thankfully they did so before agility. Imagine what a nightmare that would have been... Before that, you could show with bangs or thin the fall, but that cut into the dog's ability to show in breed. People tried all kinds of tricks. Braided. Wet and slicked it. Let it chord if they could. Silly. Nancy Smith, head of OESCA judge's education, and a former OES breeder, showed her OES in obedience as well and she has some gutsplitting funny stories about how people coped before the days of rubberbands... In her material for teaching judge's how to judge our breed I notice she even makes reference to the issue of the dog being able to see and how it can affect some dogs even in the breed ring. Smart lady with an incredible wealth of breed history. Kristine |
WCLARKE wrote: What's up with this. The "show dogs" are so fluffed up with all their hair covering their eyes. Nobody could see through all that hair, to herd sheep or keep from walking into a wall.
What's the dill, pickle? Quite frankly this is probably the biggest myth, old wives tale and misplaced/errant "logic" in this breed. No Bobtails are not sight hounds and will never be able to pick out that chipmunk in the fall leaf ground cover at 300 yards like my Afghand Hounds can and do. However a clean, properly groomed fall is not a shroud of darkness, it does not prevent them from seeing and it certainly doesn't make conformation showing a "blind trust" activity. In fact when prepared for the show OES generally have less hair falling across their eyes than when they are just "slumming around" in their day to day "doo", at least for those who don't wear bows or other hair restraints on a daily basis. Kristine, I don't know what was happenig with Mad Dog when she was "jumping" over the matts in the ring but I would suspect she found the varying textures between single and double layers of matting odd causing her to jump on the "uncomfortable or strange" surfacing. Was there matting at your handling classes (your own train them as you show them creed) or was the ring her first exposure to rubber matts? And given that you are discussing her first show there are a whole host of other new experiences that could have had her behaving atypically. Virgil learned his show ring patterns almost immediately the first time he went into the ring with a "professional handler" because I was just coming of surgery that weekend. When I handled him thereafter he knew that the black matts were where he was supposed to trot. Indeed he would trot right down the middle of the matts forcing me off to the right side where I had to watch my footing on the arena's smooth concrete floors. In fact during our first group showing they removed the barrier between two adjacent rings to make more room and give a chance for better movement but didn't remove what were the orignal rings' side matts. When we got to the middle of the "extended" ring Virgil started the left turn to go down the middle matts and I had to correct him to go straight - oh yes he could see the matts perfectly well and knew what to do. This topic just came up in the grooming forum again, please check my post there that refrences an extended "debate" on this topic from a couple of years ago. That thread is http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=17907 Both Martin and Virgil can see very well through their falls whereas Dawnie is less capable but still perfactly safe to go around without having bows etc to hold her hair up. She is better with a bow but no she's not going to hurt herself without one. Finally I have to ask WCCLARKE why parenthesize the term show dogs? It appears to show some disdain or bias against them as though they are somehow different. My "show dogs" are essentially the same as any other Bobtail, Afghan Hound etc. Sure their conformation is above average and they receive different or addition training that "pet" dogs don't get and perhaps hey ar gromed more and have a few less freedoms because of that coat care. That is nothing intrinsic to them, rather that is by my choice but they in themsleves are the same vital, loving, inquisitive active dogs as are any others. They just participate in a different sport than many others do. Just a few of my experiences and thoughts on the subject. Carl |
| No, she went to class on mats. Two differences may have been the visibility of the tape at the show site and the fact that I never thought to take her topknot down and teach her to gait semi-blind in class before the show. Plus I was already working her in obedience and agility and she was used to being asked to do things that actually required the ability to see. I practiced gaiting her basically blind before the next show and she was fine.
Yes, they can see some, depending on the density of the fall. But well? No. That's an old wive's tale unless you strip their fall. I have one bitch who does fine without being tied up, but she never could grow much head coat. I've seen OES in showcoat with really dense headcoat run into trees with their hair covering their eyes. However pretty it looks in the ring, it does nothing to help the breed's reputation as the dumb blonde (with pardons to all blondes ) of the herding group. So you can kind of pardon the average OES owner's dislike of the practice. The early OES didn't have the excessive hair we have today.
Kristine |
| I parenthesize the words "show dog" only to differentiate dogs who do not show from dogs that do. This is my ignorance showing. I have no disdain or bias against showing dogs, in fact I am interested in learning all I can to hopefully show dogs someday myself. My doggies slum around all the time with bows in their hair because I think they can't see (because of them running into walls and the general look of confusion on their face.) I wouldn't change a thing about OES, I love them, big round head and big round butt. I was just curious. |
WCLARKE wrote: I parenthesize the words "show dog" only to differentiate dogs who do not show from dogs that do. This is my ignorance showing. I love them, big round head and big round butt. I was just curious.
I know, Wendy. But after every well-publized dog show this topic does come up anyway. It is a legitimate question. I had my litters' eyes checked as puppies (and have them repeatedly checked as adults). But Mad's daughter whom I have in show coat constantly gets her topknot out and runs into things - walls, doors, you name it. I almost dragged her back to the doggie opthamologist - they're all going in March anyway - a few months ago before my vet (OES breeder) said, ehm, "fool, fix her hair first and see if that helps, eh?" It did. Carl - I mean no disrespect, and I show as is required, but a lot of OES cannot see through their fall. If I had all Belles, I would believe as you perhaps do that the rest of us are a little nuts, or at the very least disrespectful. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Carl - I mean no disrespect, and I show as is required, but a lot of OES cannot see through their fall.
When Chap's hair was up in pigtails or a top knot he was fine. But when they'd come down and I didn't get his hair up out of his face, he ran into everything - the coffee table, the fireplace surround, the door jams...I was afraid he was going to concuss or do damage to one of his eyes! I don't have show dogs, so fortunately I can just cut their hair and not worry about it! But I am positive that although they might technically be able to see movement, they sure do better when their eyes are not blocked at all. |
| In our experience, I think it's the distraction of the hair in the eyes much more than a problem of actually obscuring sight. I compare it to when you have a couple of stray hairs in your peripheral vision, maybe you're driving, and you keep glancing that way because something is moving. If you keep glancing at it, and you're not paying attention, you're bound to run into a few things! I keep Clyde's hair up all the time just so he does have clear vision because he bounces around so much, sight or no sight, he runs into stuff. I just like to increase our chances of it not happening!
Bear, on the other hand, nearly always has his eyes covered in hair-- picture a corded fall-- and he NEVER runs into things. Ever. He hates having his hair up so I keep it in a couple of loose ponytails more so I can make eye contact with him but it's not so tight that it does much. Most of the time when he moves, it sweeps out of the way anyway. |
| My two OES's are used to having a topknot in all the time except when in the ring and they are perfectly happy and can see very good, the young boy I have just picked up is not used to wearing a topknot and has a very thick coat, he could not see anything and uses his nose to "see with" since we have put a knot in his hair he is now learning to use his eyes. As said by Lisa, Kristine and myself this is part of the presentation in the show ring and is part of a complete picture, of coarse you will never see a working dog brushed up like this, although saying that you will rarely see a working OES with so much coat because it just gets in the way. Now a days in Europe we could stop brushing up to the same extent because of the tail we have lost the rolling movement of the old fashioned OES's that have been docked, on one side I feel this was the correct decision to ban docking but my show heart still yearns for the docked OES with his bear like gait, "sigh" |
| I was going to make the point about tails, "big head, big butt" how does that balance out now?
Rufus has very thick hair in my limited opinion. Quote: he could not see anything and uses his nose to "see with" since we have put a knot in his hair he is now learning to use his eyes. I think he eats things to see. "Hmmm whats that?" GULP "Oh, its a sock/ spoon/ ..." fill in the blank. I think he sees better with his topknot, games of fetch are certainly faster. |
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