Does size matter in the show ring?
|
|
| I would like to know as well. |
DandAbi wrote: I would like to know, from the veterans in the ring and/or any that have judged, how much emphasis in on size? I know the breakdown for the scale of points in judging the standard and wondered if the points assigned for "body and loins" include size? If two bitches were showing and they were identical in all other aspects (not probable I know) would size matter if one is 21 at the withers and the other ...23 or so? Does it vary much among the judges?
EVERYTHING varies one judge to another and in some cases same judge from day to day! Unfortunately you need to get experience under a number of judges to start learning what they like/dislike and eventually you can "tailor" your entry schedule to judges who "like" your dogs' features. Hopefully you can find a show mentor who can give you an honest "heads-up" about this so you get a head start. The main thing is of course the overall adherance to the breed standard (the dog's blueprint so to speak) and it is natural for each judge, breeder and enthusiast to have varying biases as to what is more important and more prefered. For example two dogs are very similar but one has a slightly pointed muzzle and the other has distinctly softer coat. Both conditions, to one degree or another, violate the breed standard. Which dog gets the higher placement? In my opinion the softer coated dog because to me any pointing of the muzzle really detracts from the overal head shape and a soft coat is less difficult to "correct" in the next generation. Undoubtedly there will be other exhibitors (and possibly judges) here who disagree with me. As to size, if the proportions and soundness of structure are maintained and other features are otherwise "equal" I always prefer the larger dog. Remember the breed's original role - droving cattle and sheep to market - required a substantial dog with strength and endurance. Well bred larger dogs can do this better than well bred smaller and lighter (hence less strong) dogs. Certainly not a definitive answer but it is the way that it is. Thanks and Cheers Carl |
| thank you. What would you say is a good size for a bitch (at the withers, I'm not sure how to tell by weight when they are all poofed up.) I've looked at the entries at Westminster '07 and there was quite a variance in size. Since I wasn't there I can't really tell. Mandy you were there (and did quite well I might add), can you guess as to their average sizes? I'm trying to decide if I'll be able to show Abi. |
| Well as for Westminster last year, and most shows I've been to, Suzi was the smallest thing there. The problem with a small bitch as a Special is that they aren't nearly as flashy and exciting. It's very hard to catch a judge's eye when you are little so a bigger dog is preferred for a Special.
As a class dog or bitch, adherence to the standard is what is most important. A good dog will win. That being said, there is a minimum height standard that you'll need to meet. That is measured from the ground to the top of the shoulder. |
Carl Lindon wrote: As to size, if the proportions and soundness of structure are maintained and other features are otherwise "equal" I always prefer the larger dog. Remember the breed's original role - droving cattle and sheep to market - required a substantial dog with strength and endurance. Well bred larger dogs can do this better than well bred smaller and lighter (hence less strong) dogs.
Certainly not a definitive answer but it is the way that it is. Thanks and Cheers Carl But recall that the original size of the working dogs the OES comes from (drover's dogs) was something like 17"-2? and in the 40 lb range (see Mandeville) Nothing like what we have today. Size, like hair, has crept up and become exaggerated the further we've gotten from a true working OES - if there ever was such an animal 
To me, bigger means more cumbersome and more likely to tire. They tend to wear out earlier in life too (orthopedically). But since OES are bred for the showring and not for working, that's pretty much a moot point and bigger (not so much height necessarily, though there is some of that, as well as bone) tends to catch a judge's eye. Since we typically have so many more nice bitches than dogs out there at any given time (personal bias? I don't think so - check out any national, any year, bitches are always more competitive in the classes and the quality among the specials tends to be better over all, perhaps because few bother to special a bitch unless she truly is exceptional), the real regret is that the small, typey bitches do, as Mandy says (and she should know - her bitch is lovely) have a harder time competing with the big boys. Oh, well, it's just a game. Some of it can be a bit regional. Where I show, bitches are frequently at the minimum of just under 22" and up to maybe 24". In other parts of the country bitches can be huge. As long as they are within the standard - all else being equal - it comes down to personal preference and there's room for a variety of sizes. Kristine |
| Kristine, you've got the right attitude. "It's just a game". This is all going to be a lot of fun and a learning experience. When it no longer is, Abi and I will stop and move on to our next journey. I'm learning, making new friends, and spending a lot more time with my adorable little Abigail. Sounds like she'll be able to give it a go. Thank you all for the input. Dee[/url] |
Mad Dog wrote: the real regret is that the small, typey bitches do, as Mandy says (and she should know - her bitch is lovely) have a harder time competing with the big boys.
Suzi says Thanks Kristine!  |
| Another thing is that the females should look feminine, the males should look masculine.
Besides having a dog background, I also have a livestock background. I did livestock judging competitively in both 4-H and FFA. In nearly every species, this is true. The females need to be strong, well boned and all that - they are the ones doing all the reproductive work, and they need to be able to do the job. But they still need to look like a girl! My personal choice with the OES is not for the big massive dogs - they would have too hard of a time doing the work. And, they wouldn't hold up as well physically over time. We raise sheep, and I know firsthand what the dog needs to be able to do. Historically, I believe the OES was on the smaller side of the current spectrum. The farmers who had the OES and used them for work were not the rich farmers, and it would have been to expensive to feed the bigger dogs. Most of these were practical, frugal people. If they had 2 dogs who both were otherwise equal in ability, they would have chosen the one that was cheaper to have around. |
| This post has answered so many questions I didn't even know how to ask. But here I go with another question... Do markings like pigment around the eyes or lips matter in the show ring? Should the lips and eyes be completely outlined with black pigment or is some pink skin acceptable? Are any other color marking more acceptable than others (like with splash and flash)? |
| Other than the nose, pigment isn't a big deal. The nose has to be completely black.
Splash and flash don't technically matter but a short shawl or a dark leg on the show sid can make a dog look like they have a shorter neck or leg. Check out the tolkien oes site for a pictorial on it. |
Yes, Tolkien does a great job of explaining the standard. http://www.tolkienoes.com/Old_English_S ... _Index.htm  |
What about a mostly all white OES? like this one. her other side has more black. |
| There's a dog that I might be showing that is almost all white and an almost all white dog has gone Winner's Dog at the National so why not?
Good luck on keeping her white. That gives me chest pain just thinking about it! |
WCLARKE wrote: What about a mostly all white OES?
It's OK. At least in the US. There has been, I'm told, at least one almost completely white breed CH. For me personally? I'd want to get away from that. True, I have a preference for a darker dog and I prefer no splashes/flashes - and that is nothing but a personal preference. But i think most longtime breeders will also tell you it's not something they strive for. They wouldn't walk away from an exceptional dog who is that white, but they'd probably ideally want more pigmentation. You see a greater percentage of deafness in highly white-factored dogs, and, also, I think, more skin problems. The ideal, also, is for that nice black rimming around the eyes. The bitch I'm (supposed to be, if her coat ever gets past puppydom  ) showing does not have the much in the way of rimming, it's slowly filling in a little, but...it will never be great, frankly. It doesn't seem to bother American judges as much, but it bothers me! And when a judge from England went over her last fall that was what he liked the least about her as well. Mind you, dogs with no rimming finish all the time. So from a show perspective... But, ideally, in my mind, the elusive perfect OES has rimming, along with all of the other attributes. So it's something to keep in mind from a breeding (towards the ideal) perspective. Does that make sense?
Kristine |
Maxmm wrote: There's a dog that I might be showing that is almost all white
SPILL!!! |
WCLARKE wrote: What about a mostly all white OES?
like this one. her other side has more black. I had to look twice!!!
 |
| This is all so helpful. Thanks everyone for all the wisdom and input. I thought Daisy was different and maybe not worthy. I know she rules but does everybody else know it!!! It's good to know we still have hope for her. I have so many questions. Daisy's twin!!!! with a tail? |
WCLARKE wrote: I thought Daisy was different and maybe not worthy.
I know she rules but does everybody else know it!!! Oh, kiddo - why would you think that? There isn't a dog on this forum that isn't worthy! They are worthy because we love them. That doesn't mean they're all going to become breed champions or herding champions or...or that they should all be bred. But, honestly, is that the true measure of a dog's worth? No. If you think her white sets her apart - obviously not. There is so much more to the breed standard than color and size, so much of it in my opinion of much greater importance. And I can tell you're learning. But even if you some day with what you're learning say to yourself: "Oh, I really don't like her...[fill in the blank]" that doesn't make her any less a great DOG. You know? I bred a dog who has the worst earset I have ever seen in the breed. The worst! He looks ridiculous! (Fear not, he's neutered ) I expect him to take off at any minute and fear walking him in a stiff breeze. But he is a great dog. The fact that he looks like a gray and white hairy Dumbo doesn't change that for me.
Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Oh, kiddo - why would you think that? There isn't a dog on this forum that isn't worthy! They are worthy because we love them. That doesn't mean they're all going to become breed champions or herding champions or...or that they should all be bred. But, honestly, is that the true measure of a dog's worth? No. The fact that he looks like a gray and white hairy Dumbo doesn't change that for me. Kristine I do understand. I have 2 others that I know are not show quality, but I am very bonded with both of them. Frankie is my personal favorite buddy. He understands everything! And I couldn't live without Daphne. But not so perfect. I don't mean to discount 'less than show quality oes' but I am extemely interested in learning everything I can about 'show quality oes'. I am probably getting way ahead of myself with the questions. I didn't always go about things the way I should as far as getting enough information, now I undersand their is so much more to learn. I really look forward to your posts because they are so full of information, written in words that I understand. |
WCLARKE wrote: I undersand their is so much more to learn. I really look forward to your posts because they are so full of information, written in words that I understand.
Well, that's very sweet, but if that's the way you feel I need to shut up on this topic because my priorities tend to be very different than most strictly show breeders. For instance, I can't forgive a dog who can't move. Who isn't balanced. Who doesn't have at least adequate reach and drive. Oh, I own one. I even bred her. I love her to death because she makes me laugh. But in the grand scheme of things, to me, a working dog who can't move is worthless (oops - OK, from a working point of view - not as a dog ).
A breeder/mentor/friend of mine once had me go over a bitch of hers. She was massive. She had beautiful bone (hey, I like it too if I don't have to do anything with the dog) A gorgeous head worthy of a dog (male). (Feminine she was not, but there is room in a breeding program for a doggie bitch) I put my hands on her and she had no shoulder layback to speak of. So-so in the neck department as many dogs who don't have a great front seem to be. Decent angulation in the rear. Reasonably shortbacked (square). Nice topline. In my infinite lack of tact (where's Sunny when you need her to kick you in the ankles 'cause she knows you're going to open your big mouth and say something stupid?) instead of pointing out her nice qualities first, I couldn't get past the lack of shoulder layback. And the fact that I thought all she needed to complete the ensemble was a saddle. Breeder wanted to slap me upside the head (hey! who can blame her? ) Her point, and it is a valid one! is that there is more to what makes an OES and OES ("type") than the structure that makes for good movement and you have to breed for the entire picture.
Short version: we need to make a point of introducing you to a bunch of showbreeders who will let you go over their dogs, explain what you are seeing and feeling, and be honest about their dogs' strengths and weaknesses. That's the way you learn. Not listening to my biases. And remember to never ask me an opinion without Sunny nearbye to act as my "filter". I'll still give you my version of the truth. I'll just phrase it better with her there to police me.
Hopefully see you this summer at some of the specialties. An excellent place to meet a variety of breeders. Kristine |
| Thank you Kristine you always have the most informative, and balanced posts! |
Mad Dog wrote: WCLARKE wrote: I undersand their is so much more to learn. I really look forward to your posts because they are so full of information, written in words that I understand. Mad Dog wrote: [Well, that's very sweet, but if that's the way you feel I need to shut up on this topic because my priorities tend to be very different than most strictly show breeders. For instance, I can't forgive a dog who can't move. Who isn't balanced. Who doesn't have at least adequate reach and drive. Oh, I own one. I even bred her. I love her to death because she makes me laugh. But in the grand scheme of things, to me, a working dog who can't move is worthless (oops - OK, from a working point of view - not as a dog ). Can't agree more Kristine, you are spot on. Mad Dog wrote: A breeder/mentor/friend of mine once had me go over a bitch of hers. She was massive. She had beautiful bone (hey, I like it too if I don't have to do anything with the dog) A gorgeous head worthy of a dog (male). (Feminine she was not, but there is room in a breeding program for a doggie bitch) I put my hands on her and she had no shoulder layback to speak of. So-so in the neck department as many dogs who don't have a great front seem to be. Decent angulation in the rear. Reasonably shortbacked (square). Nice topline. Sometimes happens that way, a ugly bitch can have really beautiful puppies. Mad Dog wrote: In my infinite lack of tact (where's Sunny when you need her to kick you in the ankles 'cause she knows you're going to open your big mouth and say something stupid?) instead of pointing out her nice qualities first, I couldn't get past the lack of shoulder layback. And the fact that I thought all she needed to complete the ensemble was a saddle. Breeder wanted to slap me upside the head (hey! who can blame her? ) Her point, and it is a valid one! is that there is more to what makes an OES and OES ("type") than the structure that makes for good movement and you have to breed for the entire picture. I think we must be sole mates Kristine then I have the same problem I say what I think, but I'll bet what you are saying is not stupid, the trouble is some breeders are blended by their own attempts to breed the perfect dog they do not want to see the faults. Mad Dog wrote: Short version: we need to make a point of introducing you to a bunch of showbreeders who will let you go over their dogs, explain what you are seeing and feeling, and be honest about their dogs' strengths and weaknesses. That's the way you learn. Not listening to my biases. And remember to never ask me an opinion without Sunny nearbye to act as my "filter". I'll still give you my version of the truth. I'll just phrase it better with her there to police me. Just go to a couple of good specialist judges and see what they say about your OEs and ask them to point out the good and bad points, Ray Owen, Gwen Mogford would certainly be glad to help. Hopefully see you this summer at some of the specialties. An excellent place to meet a variety of breeders. Kristine |
| >> I put my hands on her and she had no shoulder layback to speak of. >> So-so in the neck department as many dogs who don't have a great >> front seem to be. Decent angulation in the rear. Reasonably >> shortbacked (square). Nice topline. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you have time, please explain: shoulder layback, shortbacked, and topline. Or please let me know how to find out about these areas. I've looked at Stein's pictures but I don't really understand it all. I am learning much from this thread. Thank you all that is contributing. |
DandAbi wrote: If you have time, please explain: shoulder layback, shortbacked, and topline. Or please let me know how to find out about these areas. I've looked at Stein's pictures but I don't really understand it all.
I am learning much from this thread. Thank you all that is contributing. I feel the same way. Also, I am learning so much please don't stop your biased opinions I will collect all opinions in my search for knowledge about breeding and showing and OES in general. Tact, who is that? I don't know either. |
| Yup - you both hit the nail on the head: the problem with understanding the breed standard (see http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... mation.htm) or explanations etc thereof ( http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... efault.htm ) is that you have to first understand the basic terminology.
If Larry's illustrations didn't make sense to you, there's nothing I can try to explain on the forum that will make any more sense. If I could, I would. But you either need someone to show you hands on, or a background in horses (most dog breed standards must have been written by the horsey set - the terminology is definitely borrowed from one to the other) or... I asked OESCA's head of Judge's Education not too long ago how to explain to someone where to start when they're basically starting from scratch and with little hands-on help. She simply said; I'll tell you how I started. And recommended the following (Wendy knows this already ):
"Dog in Action: A Study of Anatomy and Locomotion As Applying to All Breeds" McDowell Lyon (Amazon has it and at a decent price) "K-9 Structure & Terminology" Edward M. Gilbert Jr. (Amazon and Dogwise both have it, but if you're an avid Ebayer, you can get it for less there) And, of course, Rachel Elliot's Dog Steps books and DVD are great as well. I know, I know, you want to know RIGHT NOW. But you need the foundation to understand what the terms mean. Once you do you'll be going, oh, yeah, that makes sense. None of it is mystical or hard to grasp - you just have to know what the darn words mean and the first two books, especially (I'm sure there are others as well) give you the foundation to understand people when they start talking about things like "the bitch has a short upper arm" or "the dog is a bit long in the loin" and you want to smack them and say "English, please!"
Not much immediate help, I know - sorry. Rushing. More later? Kristine |
To show your sheepie and to become successful with your dog takes a lot of time and even more patience, a lot of the people who visit shows have been doing this for years and know what the judge on that day is looking for. The path to success can be long and full of disapointments, believe me I know what I am talking about. 
I break judges into three catagories: 1) Breed specialist: someone who is very familiar with the breed and knows what they are looking for in a good OES, 2) Group Judge: someone who can judge the complete group 1 and has a reasonable idea what they are looking for. 3) All-rounder: this is something I think is impossible and danderous for our breed as very few of these judges know anything about our breed, they look mostly for coat and sometimes movement, but the movement part depends sometimes on their preference or opinion as to how a sheepie should move.  If you are going to show you will need help to groom, trim and present the sheepie to the best of your ability, this can only be got from well established show people. Allways go well dressed in the ring, then there is nothing worse than someone grooming a sheepie that looks fantastic and they look like a tramp. Be prepared accept some setbacks as this will occur often, not all show people welcome new comers with open arms and some of them will not be pleasent company if you should win, people become envious of a winning dog, well we have a lot of this in Europe. If you are going to show your sheepie please take the show's seriously, you can enjoy yourself but in my opinion show's are definately not for fun, remember you pay a lot of money to enter, for gas and accomodation and although it is nice to receive the credit for winning it is even nicer when other breeders start taking an interest in you dog and may even use him for stud purposes. This will only happen if you present the dog well and you become respected.  The above text is not meant to put you off showing only a word of warning what awaits you at most events, I wish you all the best of luck and hope to hear from your first shows and hopefully successes. |
dairymaid wrote: If you are going to show your sheepie please take the show's seriously, you can enjoy yourself but in my opinion show's are definately not for fun, remember you pay a lot of money to enter, for gas and accomodation and although it is nice to receive the credit for winning it is even nicer when other breeders start taking an interest in you dog and may even use him for stud purposes. This will only happen if you present the dog well and you become respected.
Oh, no! The soul mates diverge!!
Actually, I agree with 99% of what you wrote. But let me add this caveat: our dogs are for fun. The time spent with them should be fun. They are not an ends to a mean. They are our companions. In the grand scheme of things, a Best In Show Dog is no better than the mutt sprung from a shelter. Different, maybe. But no better and no more worthy. Certainly it should never detract from our relationship with our dog. Our dogs don't care about ribbons or acclaim - for any event. They just want to be with us. I've never hidden the fact that I find the breed ring the least satisfying of any thing I've ever done with my dogs - and ironically by some measures I've probably had more success there (no thanks to me), with the limited showing I've done, than I've had with the things I actually enjoy doing - and in come cases love more than life. Why? Because in conformation you are the most likely to encounter the people who take themselves, their dogs, and their reputation much too seriously. Stewart's right - you have to have, or quickly develop, a thick skin to want to show. Win or lose, you have to be able to do so with grace, even if your competitors can't manage the same. To me it is the single most unpleasant environment in dogdom. Watching the dogs is a great learning experience. But beyond that you absolutely have to do whatever it takes to make it fun for you and your dog on some level - and that can't be contingent upon winning or losing, because in the beginning, especially, you will definitely do more of the latter - or you will either sour on it or quickly lose perspective. And be careful about the holy grail of "reputation" because it can become a double-edged sword. That single quest has done more damage to this breed than any other. Always, always, remember to be honest about your dogs and yourself. There is no shame in honesty. No dog is perfect. The coverups that have gone on in the name of preserving reputation could make your hair stand on end. Certainly it is not in the best interest of the breed. Maybe that's just the nature of the game, but we can do better. We can be better. If you decide to pursue showing, work hard, study hard, always present yourself and your dog to the very best of your ability, be prepared to keep learning and seize every opportunity to do so that you can, and if you fall in love with it, try to make a difference and aim high. Aim for integrity. And, Stewart, none of that was in any way intended as a slam towards you or what you wrote. You have a fresh enough perspective on this that I suspect you know what I'm taking about. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Oh, no! The soul mates diverge!!
And, Stewart, none of that was in any way intended as a slam towards you or what you wrote. You have a fresh enough perspective on this that I suspect you know what I'm taking about. Kristine No we don't diverge, I agree with you opinion 100%, but if you are going to show your dog then you have to decide am I doing this for fun or am I doing this for a reason. The show ring is not the ideal place for someone who is shy, easily insulted or easily disappointed and as you point out you need a THICK SKIN, then someone who think is a friend can turn out to be your worst enemy. I go to shows to enjoy myself and if my sheepie is not placed that day my attitude is I come with the best dog and I go home with the best dog and like I thought in the first place that bl**dy judge has no idea what they are looking for. Shows are very important for the breed then you can see and evaluate the various stud dogs on there movement, you have a chance to go over them to form an opinion of what is under the coat, I think it is very important to form your own opinion and believe me not every breeder does this. After every show it doesn't matter win or lose we drive to the nearest Mc Donalds and we get chicken mcnuggets for the sheepies, then they have done their best and deserve a reward for their good (bad) behavior. Furthermore you should be honest with yourself, if your sheepie has faults then accept the fact the perfect OES has not been born yet, but never be afraid to question a judge about their decision, (never in the ring during judging, wait until they are finished and ask them what they found wrong with your dog, or ask them what they are looking for in our breed). Remember you are up against some of the best breeders in the states and possibly from Europe and they go to win, they are not satisfied with just being placed. Kristine I still think we are soul mates who differ slightly in our opinions but at least we accept the fact without being insulted with each other. |
| I'm listening to every word spoken on this post. You still haven't scared me away yet!!!! I know that is not the intention, you only want to give an honest opinion about the "show ring" attitude. I get it. I am bracing myself as we speak. I am determined to learn and experince this aspect of "dogdom". My copy of "Dog in Action" is bought and paid for and is on it's way. So much information here ...it's making my head spin! Thanks Kristine and Stewart. |
WCLARKE wrote: I'm listening to every word spoken on this post. You still haven't scared me away yet!!!!
I know that is not the intention, you only want to give an honest opinion about the "show ring" attitude. I get it. I am bracing myself as we speak. I am determined to learn and experince this aspect of "dogdom". My copy of "Dog in Action" is bought and paid for and is on it's way. So much information here ...it's making my head spin! Thanks Kristine and Stewart. No it definately not my intention of frightening anyone away from showing thier sheepie, then the newcomers are very important to the show circus and to the breed, in Europe the entries are going down and down because of the situation Kristine and I have been commenting on in this thread, we need a large selection off good stock to stop us closing ourselves in with our breeding and we need to keep an open mind regarding stud dogs. Wendy I hope to hear from your success in the near future and I wish you all the luck with your forthcoming ambitions. |
WCLARKE wrote: My copy of "Dog in Action" is bought and paid for and is on it's way.
Yes, well, when I went to check availability of Nancy's recommended reading list I realized I didn't have it either, so my copy is also on its way. Maybe we can compare notes?
Kristine |
dairymaid wrote: No it definately not my intention of frightening anyone away from showing thier sheepie, then the newcomers are very important to the show circus and to the breed, in Europe the entries are going down and down because of the situation Kristine and I have been commenting on in this thread, we need a large selection off good stock to stop us closing ourselves in with our breeding and we need to keep an open mind regarding stud dogs.
Yup - what he said. We definitely need new blood (of the human variety, for starters) on this side of the Atlantic as well. Nobody wants to scare you off. But the more you know, the better prepared and more likely to stick it out you'll be. Now, as for Stewart and his McNuggets post-show ritual, we do vanilla icecream in a cup, but you'll have to figure out what works best for you and your dogs
Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: dairymaid wrote: No it definately not my intention of frightening anyone away from showing thier sheepie, then the newcomers are very important to the show circus and to the breed, in Europe the entries are going down and down because of the situation Kristine and I have been commenting on in this thread, we need a large selection off good stock to stop us closing ourselves in with our breeding and we need to keep an open mind regarding stud dogs. Yup - what he said. We definitely need new blood (of the human variety, for starters) on this side of the Atlantic as well. Nobody wants to scare you off. But the more you know, the better prepared and more likely to stick it out you'll be. Now, as for Stewart and his McNuggets post-show ritual, we do vanilla icecream in a cup, but you'll have to figure out what works best for you and your dogs Kristine We do french fries. You should definitely get a good attitude and a mentor. I walked into showing thinking, I've got a dog from one of the top breeders in the country we'll just do amazingly! Yeah right! I didn't start doing any real winning with Toby until I had people to show me what to do. You really need people close to you that can guide you and trim your dog for you!
This whole thing about new people is huge!! 3 years ago, at the National, John Mandeville was giving a talk to the club and he asked who in the room was under 30. I was the only one!!! (I wouldn't even raise my hand because I thought it was some sort of weird initation trick!!) Looking around the OESCA club meeting at this year's National, I figured that there would be about 5 of us left once we reached the average age of the current membership. That's very scary for the breed! |
Maxmm wrote: We do french fries.
This whole thing about new people is huge!! 3 years ago, at the National, John Mandeville was giving a talk to the club and he asked who in the room was under 30. I was the only one!!! (I wouldn't even raise my hand because I thought it was some sort of weird initation trick!!) Looking around the OESCA club meeting at this year's National, I figured that there would be about 5 of us left once we reached the average age of the current membership. That's very scary for the breed! I CAN do french fries , but I CAN'T do under 30!!!! I'm 41.  My blood is previously used, not new. |
Maxmm wrote: This whole thing about new people is huge!! 3 years ago, at the National, John Mandeville was giving a talk to the club and he asked who in the room was under 30. I was the only one!!! (I wouldn't even raise my hand because I thought it was some sort of weird initation trick!!)
Looking around the OESCA club meeting at this year's National, I figured that there would be about 5 of us left once we reached the average age of the current membership. That's very scary for the breed! Locally, we have one show person under 30. I met her first. She was training her mom's OES in agility and her instructor, who knew I had a similar affliction, introduced us. She expressed an interest in getting an OES of her own. I invited her to a local show. She showed up and found me by the obedience rings with a good friend of mine who was waiting to go into the Open ring with Belle's cousin. Sunny then proceded to inform Gale and I that she was going to introduce herself to our dogs' breeder and ask her to mentor her. Gale and I both turned pale and pleaded with her to reconsider. Just then, Gale's number was called, so she had to go in the ring and I had to stay to watch. So as Sunny marched off, Gale and I both did the only thing we could do and wailed "Noooooooo! You don't know what you're getting yourself into!!!' She ignored us, found our breeder, introduced herself (shy, she ain't) and informed her that she wanted her to teach her how to show. Marnie was so taken aback (grown women - and most men - who have known her for decades don't march up the her at shows while she's getting a dog ready and voluntarily speak to her <snicker>) all she could think of to say was: "Do you have your parents' permission?" (Sunny was in her early-mid 20s, but looked about 14, according to later reports from Marnie ) Sunny told her age (I'm not sure if Marnie demanded ID or not) and came to the house to meet her dogs a few days later. She fell in love with one of Mad Dog's brothers, and showed him a couple of times - ask her about her flinging bait story...- before he went BOB over specials, seven months old, and breeder thought - hm - I think I have something here, and "demoted" Sunny to showing one of his sisters instead (after Sunny finished her, the bitch later went to Gale as her next obedience dog, the story is very intertwined).
So she bathed dogs non-stop and learned how to brush and trim and to load and unload vehicles for shows, and set up at shows and Gale and I kept telling her she was nuts, but you know, when she sets her mind to something... She finished another Mad Dog sister (ask her about her tribulations with Annie who had never heard the word "No!" before she came back to be shown...) Eventually she got so good at trimming, I started asking her to trim Mad for me (so I didn't have to listen to breeder piss and moan about my pathetic ability to grow and maintain hair.... ) Sunny drove me to the Western Reserve specialty - pissing and moaning and complaining nonstop at having to waste precious time with my agility dog on this annoying fluffy stuff - where I nonetheless finished Mad. Trimmed by Sunny, as it happens (she's "owned" me ever since then - I owe her so much, anything she wants, she gets).
Having gotten this far, she had decided she wanted a dog out of that breeding of her own. So breeder promised her first pick from a repeat breeding. I drove the dam for x-rays and returned home to tease Sunny: "I saw your dog". "What do you mean?" Well, there was only one, so it was a no-brainer. Breeding a bitch isn't inexpensive, so I jokingly suggested then and there they name him (or her?) Megabucks, because that's what it cost to produce him (also breeder was using a monetary theme - Mad Dog is Mad Money). He was born. Sunny lived in the whelping box. Puppy was ANNOYING. (Still is ) Breeder, who rarely lets a dog go before ten weeks old, handed him to Sunny without a fight when she showed up at the house as he turned 8 weeks and ten seconds old...Marnie and I both celebrated his departure Ask her also about the fact that one testicle hadn't dropped by eight weeks. She fondled that dog unmercifully for a month and we got daily yo-yo-ing "ball" reports (too much information!!!) Breeder had told her upfront that no second testicle and he was going to a pet home in Florida. But I think we both knew he'd have to be wrestled away from her and breathed a huge sigh of relief when the other testicle relented and made its permanent appearance.
Fast forward. Reports were non-stop and puppy was the most wonderful thing going. Lots of eye-rolling on my and Marnie's behalf  Fast forward some more. Puppy grows up to have lovely reach and drive and really covers ground. Sunny is vertically challenged. I badger her relentlessly: you have to learn how to move! You're detracting from your dog. Nag, nag, nag. The more I beat up on her, the more determined she became. Until I watched her in the Best in Show ring this fall. She had it. She'd done it. She moved him the way he should be moved and they were a team. Somehow she took her short legs and made them work for her. She came out of the ring with "no more" than her Group 1 (she'd had a number of them before, mind you - but, no a terrier went Best), but to me she was the best thing going. I've never been so proud of anyone in my life 
Mandy's is, I suspect, another story very much like that. You can do it. But you have to be willing to take your lumps, work your butt off, and never let anyone tell you it can't be done. Go for it. But start with the best dog you possibly can, because you'll need it. Kristine |
| My only contribution to this story is taking pictures.
I hope you don't mind, Sunny, but I love this one! Winning BOB this summer -  |
| My story is similar to Sunny's except I did most of my poking and prodding of a big name breeder through the internet and phone calls! She ended up throwing a dog at me and saying go and I did all the lugging and washing on my own. I got more "why aren't you winning" than here's how you do it.
Then I got introduced to Toby's grandma and Suzi's dad's owner and Suzi's breeder and it's been nonstop since. I keep getting this fear that if us kids keep winning they're going to take away our club membership. Actually, they give you more jobs within the club the more you win!!! Stay low on the radar and you won't get noticed for work. P.S. who else over here wants to help with the next East Coast National?
You know, if we were smart, Sunny and I would have switched dogs. The proportions were more correct! |
Maxmm wrote: You know, if we were smart, Sunny and I would have switched dogs. The proportions were more correct! That is so true!
I'm over 30, but LeAnne isn't. The count is up to 3. |
Maxmm wrote: You know, if we were smart, Sunny and I would have switched dogs. The proportions were more correct!
Eh, while you are technically correct, you'd have to fight me for the boy dog. He is the only dog I have ever enjoyed showing in breed. I would have killed (anyone other than Sunny) to show him at Westmin last year (Pistols at dawn? Sabers at midnight? Never mind.  )
Flying low under the radar - good luck with that!
Let the performance community know if you need any help with that part of the national, though. East Coast has a pretty good performance representation, but we're all willing to help out as needed. Sunny too
(Oops! Volunteered her again! Well, what she doesn't know.... )
Kristine |
Hey Kristine, I'll switch you Toby for anybody else in agility!! He didn't get to go to agility class this semester because Suzi needed to go to obedience class. The really funny  part is that Toby ended up going to the obedience class because Suzi had "girl time" and wasn't allowed to go anyway. Those girl dogs are so crafty, anything to get out of what they don't want to do. What is it that they call them again? It is so fitting!!!! |
Mad Dog wrote: Kristine recommended
"K-9 Structure & Terminology" Edward M. Gilbert Jr. (Amazon and Dogwise both have it, but if you're an avid Ebayer, you can get it for less there) I have found the author's (Gilbert) site which might be worth looking into. http://www.gilbertk9.com/Index.html |
| I just wanted to be sure you looked at the link abridged newsletter from the site listed above. Many, many, articles that might interest someone or spark a new post. |
Maxmm wrote: Hey Kristine, I'll switch you Toby for anybody else in agility!! He didn't get to go to agility class this semester because Suzi needed to go to obedience class. The really funny
part is that Toby ended up going to the obedience class because Suzi had "girl time" and wasn't allowed to go anyway. Those girl dogs are so crafty, anything to get out of what they don't want to do. What is it that they call them again? It is so fitting!!!!Oh, no you don't!!! Toby's adorable, but I don't "do" boy dogs. You can send me Suzi for agility, but I think you'd be better off working her yourself. The first time I saw her - '06 when she went BOW at the national - I reported to the performance list (yes, we discuss these things!!) that it would be CRIMINAL not to do agility with that bitch. I have my first ever boy dog and he may be my last. (I thought neutering would remove the testosterone pressure on his brain cells, but I'm not so sure...?) The only reason he is still here is his altheticism. Oh, he's all lovey-dovey, like a good boy dog should be. But I wish he would love me a little LESS and work a little MORE
In this household, Bitches rule, and we use the term proudly. |
DandAbi wrote: I just wanted to be sure you looked at the link abridged newsletter from the site listed above. Many, many, articles that might interest someone or spark a new post.
You're right. Fabulous articles. It would take a while to get through all of them but I picked a couple-three at semi-random and it may be a coincidence, but I'm still laughing
This is good. You need a sense of humor to show dogs. KB |
got sheep wrote: I'm over 30, but LeAnne isn't. The count is up to 3.
LeAnne just needs a few more battlescars a la Mandy and Sunny in order to join that "club"
When is the due date for the newest junior handler in the making? KB |
Mad Dog wrote: When is the due date for the newest junior handler in the making? KB March 13th, but I don't know if she will make it. She was in the hospital Wednesday evening with a super high blood pressure. No protein in the urine, so they let her go home. She is on BP meds twice a day and antibiotics. No bed rest yet, but her Dr said she will be if the BP goes up and the meds don't work. Maybe the trials of Mandy and Sunny haven't been met, but at least she can say she showed (bad pun) through her pregnancy! |
got sheep wrote: Maybe the trials of Mandy and Sunny haven't been met, but at least she can say she showed (bad pun) through her pregnancy!
Well, this kind of brings things back very nice to does size matter in the breed ring? Yes, if you look like you could pop any minute, some male judges especially appear to not be able to get you out of their ring fast enough!
And then there's the issue of double-handling! But best to start training those juniors early... Give her my best and tell her to hang in there. 
KB |
Maxmm wrote: My story is similar to Sunny's except I did most of my poking and prodding of a big name breeder through the internet and phone calls! She ended up throwing a dog at me and saying go and I did all the lugging and washing on my own. I got more "why aren't you winning" than here's how you do it.
You forgot to say how none of the East Coast breeders would help you, or talk to you, because you didn't get a show dog locally! Until, I forced you onto our breeder... |
VerveUp wrote: You forgot to say how none of the East Coast breeders would help you, or talk to you, because you didn't get a show dog locally!
Until, I forced you onto our breeder... Well, there can be a number of reasons for that, that all of them nefarious, and one of them is being careful not to step in unless asked. A longtime breeder much closer to a certain MN puppy of mine once e-mailed me to check to see if it was OK to mention something or other to puppy's owners. Let's see - I've been in the breed roughly 12 minutes in comparison. Heck, yeah, mention! But people can be proprietory about their "puppy people". If I'm not mistaken, I first met Mandy when she foolishly volunteered (or someone did it for her ) to work the agility trial in '05. She mentioned who she got her dog from, where she lives, I did some quick map related math and thought, uh-oh, you sure don't take the easy route, do you?
Though you shouldn't limit yourself to a mentor/breeder close to home just because that person is convenient, for your first show dog, closer is definitely easier. Usually. Me, I went the other way. Breeder was too close for comfort. Always ring side telling me everything I did wrong (which was, pretty much, everything ) I got to the point I where I couldn't even move in the ring. By the time I started hearing her voice when she wasn't even on the premises, I hit the road. I drove 800 miles for our first major, but only traveled half that for the second one. I can show when we're in the same state now, but it took me years...
I'm sure no breed is easy to get in to, but the grooming requirements of ours sure sets the barrier even higher. (Still not permitted to own scissors). KB |
Mad Dog wrote: (Still not permitted to own scissors).
Dude, tell me about it! I get 'granted' tools only to have them taken away. They once gave me a stripper and told me to take "all of this out" and pointed to the neck. Well, by the time I was done, Toby had all of 5 guard hairs left on his ENTIRE neck. Whole way around everything white between the backskull and his grey was gone. Oh he looked like he had a neck alright and they confiscated my stripper. (I have gotten it back since!! WooHoo!!)
But you are right about my intro into sheepdog trials, Kristine. Somebody could have told me that jeans and a black shirt were innappropriate for agility course setting outside!! I wasn't sure you remembered that! I have heard from the breeders that I've gotten to know that they didn't want to help me because of who I got my dog from. They thought that there must have been some reason that I went where I went and they were scared that I had been brainwashed with that person's mentality. So sometimes you have to make the first move and be bold about it. Or just let someone else drag you into a bad circle, Thanks Deb. |
Maxmm wrote: Mad Dog wrote: (Still not permitted to own scissors). Dude, tell me about it! I get 'granted' tools only to have them taken away. They once gave me a stripper and told me to take "all of this out" and pointed to the neck. Well, by the time I was done, Toby had all of 5 guard hairs left on his ENTIRE neck. Whole way around everything white between the backskull and his grey was gone. Oh he looked like he had a neck alright and they confiscated my stripper. (I have gotten it back since!! WooHoo!!):lol: At least you're considered "redeemable". Locally we have a "one strike, you're out!" policy. I am permitted to own strippers because I'm deemed incapable of doing any damage with them. Breeder points and says, "you need to strip that out". I do. She looks again. "I thought I told you to strip that out?" "I did!!" Evidently not. Isn't that what other dogs are for?? (Hey, Sybil - chew here!!) I keep Belle in some semblance of coat so I have someone innocuous to practice on. Sunny knows I secretely own scissors because she'll periodically see Belle in class. The last time she saw her post butt-trim, I received her highest praise to date ("Well, that isn't hideous". -- smart ass!! )But you are right about my intro into sheepdog trials, Kristine. Somebody could have told me that jeans and a black shirt were innappropriate for agility course setting outside!! I wasn't sure you remembered that! You know, I didn't recognize you the following year in boots and a skirt. I pieced it together later. Mostly I remembered Suzi in any event. Had I remembered in time and realized I had met you before and knew you were already working a dog in agility, you would have been shang-haied and given a lecture on "I hope you plan to do agility with that bitch!" Bitches like her don't come along every day. Not that I remembered what you were wearing for the trial. Organizing these events tests your sanity. I do remember it was an almost unseaonably warm day. Point to remember to warn future volunteers. Expect anything! The only event you are better off, even as an exhibitor, not dressing up for (Tux doesn't look so great after you've taken a nosedive in the mud and muck ) I have heard from the breeders that I've gotten to know that they didn't want to help me because of who I got my dog from. They thought that there must have been some reason that I went where I went and they were scared that I had been brainwashed with that person's mentality. She also has a very strict hands-off policy. Double-whammy for a newbie. KB So sometimes you have to make the first move and be bold about it. Or just let someone else drag you into a bad circle, Thanks Deb. [/quote][color=darkblue] |
Maxmm wrote: P.S. who else over here wants to help with the next East Coast National?
I never know when to say no. |
| You've been sucked in and now it's in writing for the world to see!! |
| Kristine - said breeder has definitely mellowed. LeAnne (and I by default) got TOLD to get the "approved" stripper and gifted with a scissors each.
In fear of getting the wrong stripper (as it has no brand or identifying marks) I took a picture of it with my trusty camera and compared all strippers until I found a match!! As LeAnne got the direct tutorial, she still does all stripping for the month before shows. (I missed it bathing Mad the 1st time, have ended up in the ring with Simon the rest of the time). I get the "Gee Mom - it's easy!", so I just let her do it.
I am curious about Sunny's take on Chewie's butt job though... |
got sheep wrote: Kristine - said breeder has definitely mellowed. LeAnne (and I by default) got TOLD to get the "approved" stripper and gifted with a scissors each.
I am curious about Sunny's take on Chewie's butt job though... |
got sheep wrote: Kristine - said breeder has definitely mellowed. LeAnne (and I by default) got TOLD to get the "approved" stripper and gifted with a scissors each.
Said breeder, I'm told, mellows with each successive "generation". When I complained to Gale, she enjoyed regaling me with stories of - "shoot, what's 800 miles? I drove 400 miles through an ICE STORM to get far enough away to finish Meghan in peace!" (her first bitch from said breeder ). <Subsequent recounts of the story have her and the bitch trotting the last 20 miles on foot. Gale carrying the grooming equipment on her back. The story just gets better and better every time> Bottomline, Gale remains insistent to this day that no more breedring except the occasional veteran and solved the issue by waiting until all subsequent bitches were finished before she got them. We'll cover "Said Breeder - The Early Years" during Waukesha this summer over some Mojitos. Sometimes I think you become the kind of mentor your mentor was. Her mentor deemed her too incompetent to show her own first 2-3 dogs. When I got Mad, she in turn declared me incompetent. Considering Mad wasn't even 6 mos old yet so had never seen the inside of a ring, I felt that was a bit premature. Thus began the Epic Battle of: "You're incompetent, you need to let me show your bitch!" vrs "Touch my bitch and die!" It has never been to either of our advantage that we're both pigheaded to a fault. <hums a few choruses of "My Way".> I am curious about Sunny's take on Chewie's butt job though...
Despite Sunny's previous training by two the most loudly opinionated, least tactful people in the breed -apart from her potshots at me; and recall, she's earned the right  - she will be remarkably kind, encouraging and diplomatic no matter what. Also, and you can thank me later , she has much experience in how to fix mistakes as needed. And I'm not just saying this because I need her to turn Mace from a haystack into an OES again (ahem ) I trimmed her butt and as many pigbristles as I dared this past weekend and, amazingly, no lightening bolts from the sky.Yet. KB |
| [quote="Mad Dog"]
"K-9 Structure & Terminology" Edward M. Gilbert Jr. (Amazon and Dogwise both have it, but if you're an avid Ebayer, you can get it for less there) I justed got it and appreciate your recommending the book. Thank you, Dee |
DandAbi wrote: I justed got it and appreciate your recommending the book. Thank you, Dee
Hi, Dee. I was going to say "phewey! I don't have mine yet!" Then I realized it may have something to do with the fact that the mailbox is buried in a snowdrift...
Maybe you and Wendy and I need to start a book group?
Kristine |
| sounds good to me...I'm still waiting for mine. |
| I actually ordered it from the library. I work at a library so I can just keep renewing for as long as I want. |
| kristine and Mandy et al, you all know those of us not in the know are going crazy trying to figure out which breeders are which in your tales |
ButtersStotch wrote: I actually ordered it from the library. I work at a library so I can just keep renewing for as long as I want.
OH! So YOU'RE the one!!!
Kristine |
kerry wrote: kristine and Mandy et al, you all know those of us not in the know are going crazy trying to figure out which breeders are which in your tales
The actual who's are less important. There are a lot of characters in this breed and if you happen to be around when a bunch of longtime breeders start reminiscing about THEIR early days in the breed - the goofy things THEY did, and the people who influenced them, for better and worse - often times at a dinner or a during a lunch following a specialty - oh, good grief, be prepared to laugh till you cry. Last summer after a specialty I was talking to two breeders who between them must have at least 60 plus years in the breed and I was laughing so hard I had to beg them to stop. That's when you realize that every one of them were "newbies" once too, and their experiences shaped who they are today, much the way that ours will for us. That and the fact that anyone who owns an OES has got to be a bit peculiar by definition, and those who aspire to breed and/or show them are the most peculiar of all. There are enough funny stories to go around. Kristine |
| This is done a lot in Europe as well Kristine, the older breeders start reminiscing about years gone bye and I honestly believe the atmosphere was better then, today most breeders are there to win and the "we stick together" part is nearly non-existent. Our breed is a very special one and we need to be careful not to lose all these distinctive trademarks that the sheepie has, furthermore we should be looking for young people to train as they are the future of the breed and the breed clubs and not the old people who are ruling things at the moment, we have to make the younger people welcome instead of making them feel they are intruders that are not really welcome and would be better off staying at home then thats what happens a lot of the time these youngsters just stop involving themselves in the show circus and the club activities because of the attitude of some of todays heirarchy. |
dairymaid wrote: Our breed is a very special one and we need to be careful not to lose all these distinctive trademarks that the sheepie has, furthermore we should be looking for young people to train as they are the future of the breed and the breed clubs and not the old people who are ruling things at the moment, we have to make the younger people welcome instead of making them feel they are intruders that are not really welcome and would be better off staying at home then thats what happens a lot of the time these youngsters just stop involving themselves in the show circus and the club activities because of the attitude of some of todays heirarchy.[/color]
Bingo, Stewart! Even if some of the "old time" breeders may have lost their perspectives and sense of humor and can't let go of their real or imagined grudges, the rest of us have the power not to fall into those traps, keep an open mind, be supportive regardless and not fall into what Mandy in one thread or another refers to as "camps".
Honestly, the future of the breed depends on it. Kristine |
Didn't find exactly what you're looking for? Search again here:
Custom Search
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|