I need some HELP. My dogs are fighting!
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| I went through a similar thing here with both China/Violet. Violet was 15mts when China came into our lives at 8mts. About a year and a half ago, all of a sudden, Violet would attack China, for what I thought no apparent reason. I mean biting on the back or neck and really ugley. Of course yelling NO!! STOP VIOLET!!! Would eventually work. So I then started to keep a REALLY close eye on them to see what was starting this off. I soon learned, that in Violet's case, it was food related. When China received her treat last, Violet would come and try to take it away...so now China always gets hers first and Violet last. I also keep an eye on Violet and watch her body language. If China is under the table, and Violet starts "the walk" I put my leg between the two to give Violet the message to settle down and leave China alone. We have not had any of those incidences in a long, long time, but rest assure, they are frightening when they happen.
I also started to take the advise I had read on the forum about walking the dogs together to form a pack. I truely believe that doing that was ALSO a turning point with them. Before that, I would walk them seperatly because they are two very strong dogs and I am not a very large person. They can be quite a handful. Now they are great dogs walking together and everything has turned out well. However, I am still vigulant. |
| I am not a professional trainer... others have more experience and will give you more advice...
Quote: The problem now is that Garfunkel is still grabbing Simon by the neck but now Simon yelps.
I'd put a leash on Garfunkel and every time he went for Simon's collar I'd pull him back, relax the leash and give a no-nonsense "leave it!"... then let him go back to playing. He has to repeat the unacceptable behavior so he can learn why he's being corrected. I'd get dressed before they went out (:lol: sorry, couldn't pass that up  ) and supervise them outdoors every time until a simple verbal command will make him stop this behavior. You have to be the one to set the rules... Simon doesn't like what Garfunkel is doing so you need to stop to the behavior or Simon may eventually do it. If there is any chance of human aggression, call in a professional trainer.
IMPORTANT: Make sure collars can't become entangled together (had that happen once). And with leashes, make sure the loop-end won't accidentally get hooked on something while the dog is running. I use a short length of plastic coated clothes line so there's no "handle" to get hooked up. I'm afraid that loop might hook on something while the dog is running and will injure or break the dogs neck. (I'm a notorious worrywart.) |
we have some episodes like this with Marley and Morgan. NUmber one - don't get between them (learned that the hard way one day when I put my hand up) 
They have to respond to a voice command to stop and I always put they in a down stay after an episode until I feel they have both relaxed. All of that said in every case our incidents have been resource related. It can occur over food and it can occur when one fo them gets too close to me at the wrong time. We had no episodes when Marley was on Prosac, but she is off now for other training reasons and I have had two episodes in the last month. This is not a dominance issue. SHe strikes out out for other reasons. I am a new convert but a big believer in control unleashed - read the type blurbs about the type of dog it works with and if it fits your situation I would try it - on your own or with a behaviourist. Mine have never hert each other more than a scratch, but you have to be on them and wathc them all the time - not bad advice for anyone I guess. |
| We have had some pretty serious fights and we went through a really rough time when Bear turned around 1 and Clyde was 2 so I know how you're feeing and how scary it can be. We've had blood, hair (and cords) pulled out, and we've gotten bitten, too getting involved in the wrong ways.
I think one of the most important things for you to do during this time is to really get to know their behavior so you can recognize the signs and diffuse it before it even starts. Keep resources separate and watch them all the time-- and I mean all the time. Once they start stiffening up and go quiet, it's too late, you're going to have a fight no matter what you do. We had a couple of months in our house where I don't think I sat down for longer than 5 minutes at a time because I'd jump up at the first sign of anything, even just a look. I agree with Jaci about keeping leashes on them in the house but, in our case, we kept a leash on both because in the case something erupts, it's easier to get control of both dogs. If you can avoid separating them physically, definitely do that but if you do have to pull them apart, make sure you and your husband both are there and you pull them from the back, by the hind legs away from the other and, even then, be careful. I still do a lot of luring if it becomes necessary. If one dog gets upset and I can tell they're going to have words, I yell "Who wants a treat?" and if I run and grab treats, they'll follow, grab their treats and relax to eat it. Sometimes just one gets one and he'll leave the room to eat it (the boys both have their own treat eating spots) and I keep the other one with me or in the area with whatever was causing the ruckus in the first place. Sometimes instead of a treat, I make them sit like they're going to get one and I just pet and praise so they aren't always getting a food reward. One way or another, it's an excellent distraction and beats the heck out of fighting. A lot of it's trial and error, which unfortunately sucks until you find the method that will work best for Simon and Garfunkel. Young dogs can be tough together sometimes but with some work, you can get through it. |
| The job title "referee" comes to mind for people with multiple dogs.
Kaytee got bit on the ear a couple of weeks ago... we were getting ready to leave and I rolled the dehumidifier into the corner. The noise, excitement and commotion set Kaytee off... she jumped on Emma in a the hallway and Meesha came in and bit her on the ear. Meesha wouldn't let go until I swatted her on the muzzle. (You'd better know a dog's limits before doing that though or you might get bit.) So you've got to remember that sometimes the instigator of a fight is now the poor doggie with a boo-boo. Kaytee had a puncture wound on the ear but it healed quickly (I love Neo-Predef powder!). http://oesusa.com/KayteeBabushkaMookie2.jpg Thankfully this behavior seldom happens anymore. Quote: I think one of the most important things for you to do during this time is to really get to know their behavior so you can recognize the signs and diffuse it before it even starts. So true... and it requires constant supervision. You MUST learn to recognize the behavior that leads up to a confrontation and stay ahead of it. There comes a point of no return so any situation needs to be quickly diffused before it can becomes a fight. And they can escalate quickly. With most dogs it seems to be over a coveted object... sometimes it's even over an object the dog really doesn't even want at the moment. They just don't want the other dog to have it. A bone, toy, dirty sock... sigh.  Quote: I yell "Who wants a treat?"  Yup... and it usually works too.Quote: A lot of it's trial and error, which unfortunately sucks until you find the method that will work best for Simon and Garfunkel.
It's true... you have to learn the dog and this takes close observation and time. |
| Oh, I know how difficult this is for you. Over time the true personalities are coming out. Having two sheepies is so much different than one. We definitely feel like referees on a regular basis. Teeth activity happens frequently around here. They play well and the next thing I know Annie's jaws are flapping due to some "scent" in the air or on the ground or on Mommy...After a few bites on the snout, Fozzie learned quickly how to maneuver out of the way of Annie jaws. We've learned when to jump in and when to butt out and let them work it out. I still hate it though.
One very scary time (the only time I saw this), Annie pinned Fozzie on his back and was really nasty. Thinking they'd work it out, I let it go on for a second or two...then I saw BLOOD all over Fozzie. Annie immediately responded to her name, realized what she was doing and stepped off. I was so upset in the moment afterwards and freaking out over what injury she caused Fozzie. Well, ding dong Annie had bit her own tongue |
| I'm glad I read this today. My dogs occasionally will fight mostly over food, but sometimes a toy. It really does't happen very often, but when it does OH BOY!!! It sounds and looks so bad. I love the "who wants a treat" when it looks like something might be going down. I do use that technique, but I was worried they might relate starting a fight with getting a treat, but no, the treat just distracts them from the fight so there is peace once again in our house. |
| These types of violent confrontations are certainly dominance related, sometimes induced by a subordinate dog that is overly excited or anxious whose behavior is mistakenly interpreted by the dominant dog as a challenge. This can happen over food, toys or nothing. If a dog protects food from YOU by growling, then that is a challenge to YOUR position of dominance and needs to be worked on until the dog will submit to you as the dominant one. In order to deal with a fight when they happen, you need to be firmly in a position of pack dominance.
The distraction suggestions are a good idea, but once one of these fights starts I think they are VERY difficult to stop with only a voice command. When this has happened I try to do the following: 1. Grab the more aggressive dog by the skin on the back of the neck and try to separate them. I think there is an instinctual relaxation from being gripped by the back of the neck like a mother dog will do with a young pup. 2. Establish eye contact. Firmly and immediately put the dog on the ground into a submissive (to you) position, on their back if necessary. If there are two of you do this with both dogs. Hold them there until he/she relaxes, maintain firm eye contact. 3. Do not, under any circumstance try to comfort either dog, especially the one you think is the injured party. This is interpreted as rewarding the behavior. Make them stay that way longer than you feel is necessary, until normal behavior is completely restored in both dogs. The idea is to get across that internal pack conflict is NOT going to be allowed by the dominant leader, you. When proper behavior is completely restored you can reward or comfort the dogs. I should add that this should not be tried with a strange dog involved that does not already accept you as dominant. In that case, separating them with a leash or an object like a broom may be the only way to avoid getting bitten yourself. |
| Control unleashed...Now that is my kind of training and communication. No force involved.
Garfunkal has been in his new home for around a month. Prior to that he had a very sheltered life, and is believed to have had little or no socialization. It takes months for a dog to settle into a new home, new routines and new relationships..He also is still learning how to behave with another dog. This takes a long time. I think he is doing very well, for what he has been through. I suspect he is still quite stressed, as the barking is indicative of stress. Getting him to stop barking by spraying him with water does not relieve the stress. It makes him stop barking, but internalizes the stress, and he cannot relieve it which makes him more stressful. Then other behaviors start to prop up. Dogs have thier scuffles and often blood results from a bitten tongue, and in this case I would suspect there was a critter being devoured that wasn't shared. If they fight and there is no blood or broken bones, then what they are doing is yelling at each other.....And some dogs are more vocal than others. If noone is harmed then both dogs are doing a very good job of controlling thier bites..This is very good news, and until someone gets bitten, it is less to worry about. I would not get physically involved unless you absolutely know someone is getting hurt. If it is all noise, and you cannot destract them, it sometimes is better for one to give up, and then the winner will let him go. Then you can deal with manageing it from there on in. I never have leashes and collors on my dogs, as that is only a mangement tool which may cause, again, more stress to the dog. The problem needs to be removed, not just managed by restraints. You absolutely need to have control over them, so that they listen when you need them to. This is very hard, though, because if one looks at you in the middle of a fight, and the other one doesn't, then he gets blind-sided. And often when stress levels are extremely high they just cannot hear you. I have once knocked over a chair which sent both dogs scrambling. It surely didn't train them at all, but it was a last resort to stop a fight over food that someone left out. I suspect both dogs might be spending too much time together, and need more one-on-one time with thier humans folks...Not totally, but more. That will help with the individual training. And excerice, individually, like chaisng a ball, or goign on a long wlak..A tired dog is s agood dog..Then they might not feel the need to go so crazy when the are together. When my dogs are in a scuffle, I say "off" and it stops. I have trained them that "off" means back away..It is very clear...But the dog needs to be trained to respond. Good luck. |
rfloch wrote: These types of violent confrontations are certainly dominance related, sometimes induced by a subordinate dog that is overly excited or anxious whose behavior is mistakenly interpreted by the dominant dog as a challenge. This can happen over food, toys or nothing. If a dog protects food from YOU by growling, then that is a challenge to YOUR position of dominance and needs to be worked on until the dog will submit to you as the dominant one. In order to deal with a fight when they happen, you need to be firmly in a position of pack dominance.
The distraction suggestions are a good idea, but once one of these fights starts I think they are VERY difficult to stop with only a voice command. It is not as difficult as you think - to get them to stop if you yell loudly enough - funny I actually do yell "ENOUGH" which slows them down a bit. I then give them a verbal and visual cue to go down and they down immediately - although it isn't usually an immediate response other wise. However, fighting over food or other resources is not necessarilly a dominance issue. Resource guarding is not a dominance issue. neither is reactive behavior in dogs. My dog has been labled aggressive before and I know she is a wimp. the proper trainer has pointed out she is not aggressive but reacitve - these are different things, although the reactive behavior can be aggressive. |
kerry wrote: rfloch wrote: These types of violent confrontations are certainly dominance related, sometimes induced by a subordinate dog that is overly excited or anxious whose behavior is mistakenly interpreted by the dominant dog as a challenge. This can happen over food, toys or nothing. If a dog protects food from YOU by growling, then that is a challenge to YOUR position of dominance and needs to be worked on until the dog will submit to you as the dominant one. In order to deal with a fight when they happen, you need to be firmly in a position of pack dominance. The distraction suggestions are a good idea, but once one of these fights starts I think they are VERY difficult to stop with only a voice command. It is not as difficult as you think - to get them to stop if you yell loudly enough - funny I actually do yell "ENOUGH" which slows them down a bit. I then give them a verbal and visual cue to go down and they down immediately - although it isn't usually an immediate response other wise. I agree it can help, but I think you definitely have to be at a certain point not only in your training with your dogs, but even your relationship with them to get to the verbal cue success stage. You've got to have some pretty reliable dogs in terms of training because, you figure, you're really giving two commands-- first to stop fighting, then to go lie down. Add in that they're all super excited and focused on fighting, it's a pretty tough request! We're at the point now with Bear and Clyde that a verbal cue will diffuse them if someone starts getting ornery in most mild situations but when they go at it, a bomb wouldn't slow them down until they were done fighting. We're dealing with two vastly different dog temperaments in our house though, too, which I think makes a difference in some ways. I have one that is willing to back down and stop and the other who gets enraged and will keep going and going. Guess which one is which, lol. |
Wow. Lots of good advice. Having lived with Garfunkel  I suspect his biggest issue is he never had any real structure - i.e. he never understood what it was like to live like a real dog in a real household and whomever clued into his stress - kudos. That kind of stress does come, I suspect, from a dog who doesn't yet understand the rules and it will take time to get it through his dumb boy skull what those rules are. Even at my house, and my dogs are pretty good at relaying the rules, he constantly bumped up against the boundaries and kept pushing. He's not easy in that regard and really needs consistency, a supreme sense of calm and, on occasion, possibly a stiff drink...(no, not for him! )
The obedience classes will help (it's more than just the obedience; it's also the stucture, the expectations, and him being challenged to use his brain a bit), more one on one and more house rules and just firm and consistent enforcement of same. All great things. I have ten OES at the house right now, different ages, different backgrounds - 6 are related - mothers/daughters/son/siblings/aunts/counsins - three are rescues/fosters - two of them seized from a puppymill - and one is a former rescue dog I'm babysitting for a friend. Nine bitches. Some intact (mine, not the rescues!) One neutered male. The youngest is a year old, the oldest is ten. They all get along and mingle just fine. Any grumbling gets met with a short "hey!" and that's the end of that. Why? I wish I knew. Maybe more is actually easy than just two or three and they just fold into the pack and keep each other in line. Kristine |
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