My Dog's first time at a groomer
So today it was on to groomer no 2 . he shaved him !  So this leaves me thinking, do they want to shave him because they don't want to bother with the brushing? and another question, he told me this breed are very aggressive ? that I was lucky he wasn't. I tought I did my research quite well before getting an oes?
Sorry this is soo long to read  |
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| Have you been doing a thorough line brushing on Zeus? It's very important to make sure the hair is brushed out completely down to the skin. Many people make the mistake of just brushing out the ends so it looks good but you can't even feel the skin because of matting.
At Zeus's age, he's probably starting to blow his puppy coat so it is a difficult time to try to keep him mat-free. With all due respect to the professional groomers on this board, many are unwilling to do a full brush-out on a dog the size of an OES. Most do a great business on small dogs that are professionally groomed on a regular basis. Figure grooming about a dozen Yorkies to one OES and see which brings in the most money. Now that Zeus is shaved down, it's a great time to get him accustomed to being groomed without the need to restrain him. Most OES actually enjoy their grooming sessions if they're rewarded for their cooperation. IMO, Old English Sheepdogs do have a bad reputation for being aggressive for groomers. They're big and intimidating and usually matted when their owners give up and let someone else deal with the hair. Even the most even-tempered of dogs will grumble and sometimes snap when they have to endure long periods of hair pulling, nail clipping and brushing. It only takes one surly OES to make groomers and even vets believe the breed is aggressive. My Winston was like that and to this day (about 25 years later) my vet still remembers him as an aggressive dog. |
| Since you got an OES with a nice temperament, you probably did your homework just fine. We do, however, have a long-standing temperament problem in this breed (I think it's getting better?) and the reputation that goes with it, especially among a number of groomers and vets, who tend to see the worst of the worst at their worst, sooner or later.
If you were a groomer, you would just want to shave every OES you saw too. They are in business to make a living and they can probably do about 2-4 dogs in the time it takes to do one OES, but can't really charge you accordingly. Plus, they don't know you yet and don't trust that you can indeed hand them over, mat-free. At, at his age, you've got some coat-changing nightmare to go through, so as aggravating as it is, the shave was probably a blessing.. NOW, if you find one who can be persuaded otherwise, be prepared to pay handsomely for it and possibly have to train her yourself. But once he is past the puppycoat stage and you have more brushing ecperience under your belt, it's definitely doable. Do you have any friends with coated breeds who swear by their groomer...? That might be your next best bet in the quest to find the perfect groomer. Kristine |
I just had my Sami shaved down also I was hoping to leave it longer in the legs but with the weather, we shaved her. I do not like it but she (Sami) thinks she is the cats meow. I think she is happy because I do not have to brush her for a bit.  My groomer said she was very good and let her do whatever to her bath and all which we were not going to do because it was -42 yesterday. but she works through her house so she let me leave Sami there to play with her dog in the afternoon to make sure she was real dry and they had a play date. |
| All the groomers that we've taken Barney to have told us that if he had mats then he would be shaved. So we always make sure he's mat free when we take him in (kind of like cleaning before the maid gets there, don't you think?!). And so far he's been left hairy. It might depend on the groomer as to what they consider matted, too, like if they find one mat, shave the sucker! Since it really is much easier to shave than to brush out. |
I have to say my groomer will remove mats although she said he only had little ones. I have used her 2 X she is a mobile groomer so I can watch and listen to my boy  She said he is the nicest well tempered OES she has ever worked on (well of course) but the first time she worked on him 4 hours (120 bucks) and the second time 3 hours (100 bucks) but she bathed brushed sissor trimmed him all over, plucked his ears and dremmeled(I know I mispelled this) his toenails. I was pleased with the results and he had a great puppy cut and did not look like a poodle!! (not that there is anything wrong with a poodle) |
| It's been a long time since I didn't groom my dogs myself, but as I recall it really helps to establish a relationship with a groomer and that takes some time. And when they are puppies and going through the worst of the coat change...good grief, you can brush through one side, start on the next and I swear by the time you stand them up the first side is starting to mat!! At that point, if you don't need to "keep them in coat", oh, it is so much better just to shave.
And look around the forum for short trims you really like, ask to borrow the picture and take it to your groomer and ask "would it be possible...?" I know my old groomer did a very nice job in every way that mattered, but I don't think she ever saw another OES, certainly not a nicely shaved one, so I never knew what Heidi would resemble next. Some times a poodle, some times a schnauzer...Good grief! I just let her experiment, but... 
I've seen some very nice pics on here. Always love Jaci's girls as an example of a really nice, short cut that leaves enough hair on the head to maintain character, but there are many others too. I am so bad at heads my VET finally had to show me how to do a half-way decent job. I'm still experiementing. No more poodles or schnauzers, but....not really a nice OES trim/shave yet either 
Kristine |
| I get that aggressive word alot. Since she was a puppy...from petsmart "trainers", some vets, groomers. I am really getting ticked off about it. I can ALWAYS tell when they are not thrilled to see an OES there. So I now ask if they are "ok" with this breed before anything is done. If they are as unprofessional as I have come across, to flat out tell me they are "aggressive" or "my sister had two that were mean." etc... I thank them and walk out without their services.
I am thankful I have found a wonderful groomer that loves these guys and does a wonderful job. (who I found through this forum.) |
| I don't have many options around here for groomers. I think in a twenty mile radius there are three groomers maybe. One of them stopped doing large dogs because she was attacked by a rottweiler. I have only gone to one so far, and she is very fair. She is a military wife, too. I don't ask her to brush him out, because I don't think she has any experience with the breed. But she bathes him, attempts to dry him and clips his nails. She hasn't attempted to shave anything, yet, and I don't think she will unless I expressly ask her to. She does brush him some, but I usually do a good brushing once we get home. She told me that last time he just laid there and let her clip his nails without wiggling a bit, I'm jealous, lol. But she only charges me $35 because she's never been able to get him completely dry before I have to pick him up. I know this isn't proper technique in grooming, but it works for us. The main reason I take him to the groomer is he doesn't really fit in my tub anymore. As long as he is clean I'm happy!! He is everyone's favorite dog now, the other shop owners come over to visit him whenever he is there, lol. |
AddieLuv wrote: I get that aggressive word alot.
I really hate how much that word gets used. Most people don't even know what it means and will use it to describe normal dog behavior. "Did you hear that dog growl at my dog while he was playing? He's aggressive." No, he's not! He's playing and he made a noise. "That kid pulled on that dog's ears really hard and he got aggressive." Um, no, your kid pulled the dogs ears, causing him discomfort and he growled to warn him. "That dog kept barking in my dog's face and he scared my dog. He's really aggressive." No, he's just trying to play. *sigh* That's the short list from my last trip to the local dog park and one of the main reasons we don't go back. (And none of those lines were used on my dogs, just for the record, lol.) That word gets tossed around way too much and confuses people and ends up giving good dogs a bad name-- not all the time, but more often than it should. I know that wasn't really appropriate for the grooming part of the forum but I had to get that out! |
Quote: I am thankful I have found a wonderful groomer that loves these guys and does a wonderful job. (who I found through this forum.)
I love you too Julie!! |
ButtersStotch wrote: AddieLuv wrote: I get that aggressive word alot. I really hate how much that word gets used. Most people don't even know what it means and will use it to describe normal dog behavior. Yes, that's very true. A friend of mine locally insists her rescue dog is borderline Cujo because she barks at other dogs and was apologizing up and down when "Cujo" warned a very rude OES puppy to get his nose out of her behind, he didn't listen and she told him off. No harm, no foul. That was just normal dog behavior but we have conditioned people to believe any woof is aggression and I think many times they create more problems by getting alll tense expecting the worst. "Cujo", for the record, is downstairs right now hanging out with my six plus my foster and having the time of her life. And yet there are also people who have aggressive dogs who give it a different name and try to excuse it. "My dog isn't aggressive, she's reactive" "Uh, well, your "reactive" dog just left several chunks of my sheepdog's hair floating around the agility ring when she came charging out of nowhere as my dog was running the course and, frankly, my dog thinks that's an act of aggression" (true story). Of course, there are lots of reasons for bad behavior and some of it *is* just dog behavior (bad behavior, nonetheless) - the dog barking at another to get it to play - rude, probably not aggressive. Herding breed? Vets and groomers probably judge a dog's stability of temperament, to put it in nicer terms, by the number of times a dog has tried to remove various body parts. Theirs. My aunt was a groomer for a vet a zillion years ago and the only time she ever got seriously bitten was by an OES. Two different dogs. She still loves mine, but... As I was leaving my chiropractic vet's office today the other vet at the clinic had just finished spaying a springer spaniel and we were chatting about that and he made the comment that she was very laidback and easy going which had surprised him because most of the ones he sees are borderline hysterical - bred that way for hunting, he said - well, I dunno, maybe the field spaniels, but many showline ESS are a bit over the top for other reasons - and a springer friend of mine - a breeder - says the same thing. So is he wrong? He goes by the population he sees. He also cooed to Sybil that SHE didn't have that problem, which was clearly also a breed bias and not based on the actual dog, because she is the busiest darn OES I've ever known
Hypothyroidism may play a role in some of bad temperaments we see in the breed. Also, there are lines that have more or less strong streaks of dominance to them - show lines too. And a dominant dog that is not well handled can easily display aggressive behavior. As can an insecure/shy dog. And we have lots of excessively shy OES. Not all display fear aggression -we have two pathologically fearful dogs in rescue right now that are sweet as the day is long. These dogs, even when pushed, do not display aggressive behavior, even though it would be understandable if they did under the circumstances. What makes one dog's bite threshhold exceeedingly low, while another's is exceedingly high? And if groomers and vets are singling out our breed as unstabile, the question is why? Kristine |
| Thank you, everyone is so helpfull ! as soon as I find a groomer that we have a good connection with, I will let you know. It will be a while for the hair to grow back .
BTW Zeus found a new toy ! his little stub of tail he never noticed it before with all the fur I guess ..
Thanks again |
| I took one of my pups back for boarding....and as soon as he walked in the door I could only say "WOW"! He looked as though he could walk into a showring. His owners have him groomed at Petsmart. He is in full coat and it only costs $47 for a bath, brush and trim(round the paws, shave between the pads and trim the bum) They also clean and pluck the ears.
So keeping that in mind when I had pneumonia and was sick for well over a month I decided to take two of my dogs there who were in coat. It was only $47/dog and they did a beautiful job! |
| Finding a good groomer is heavenly. They should be rewarded often above and beyond normal fees. You can help them by learning how to brush. Here's a shameless promotion for two grooming videos put out by New England rescue: http://neoesr.org/videos.htm Look at # 5 and #6 (I believe). One is on shaving the other on grooming to a show cut. While neither may be exactly what you want, you can learn a great deal from both. |
| Oh thanks sheepie boss! Great!
Hi Erica!! I wanted to add my dog is not aggressive (so far.) Just blown away by some professionals who just HAVE to make that comment before knowing the individual dog. (I would never comment on my feelings at my job. To remain curteous and to just do your job goes a long way when you come to the "tough ones.") But the ones that really love them and think they are great, make up for it! |
| While we do the bulk of all grooming ourselves, we do have a groomer who loves our (mine and Leanne's) boys. And, she lives a block from LeAnne's house.
It is so nice knowing that if we need her, she will make a spot for our dogs in a heartbeat! Her prices are probably midrange - but she needs to make a living too! One thing she will do is ask what we our max $ we plan to spend, and she will stop at that point. And, she works on the dog in spurts, so they aren't on the table for hours. They get time out in her fenced yard, potty breaks, snacks and fun stuff like that. |
| I personally think that some people find most "large" dogs intimidating. They automatically assume that they will be aggressive. Most of the time they act just like the "little" dogs which go unnoticed because they are not as intimidating size-wise. I have become quite used to this since Abi's sister is an Akita...talk about fear! The difference is when a 4 lb dog jumps on you...oh isn't he cute...when a 60-100 lb dog jumps on you...well you CAN get hurt...when a 4 lb dog growls...oh he wants attention...when a large dog growls...oh my he's going to attack me. It's all about the size. The biggest difference is in humans...that's right... women- with a lot of attitude. |
Mad Dog wrote: Since you got an OES with a nice temperament, you probably did your homework just fine. We do, however, have a long-standing temperament problem in this breed (I think it's getting better?) and the reputation that goes with it, especially among a number of groomers and vets, who tend to see the worst of the worst at their worst, sooner or later.
Kristine Really? I wasn't aware there were temperment issues. My OES (and I have only had three) have all been the sweetest people dogs ever. Everyone who has ever met them has been won over by their personalities - even if they were intimidated by their size and grooming. Is the temperment line specific or general across the breed? Thanks |
kerry wrote: Really? I wasn't aware there were temperment issues. My OES (and I have only had three) have all been the sweetest people dogs ever. Everyone who has ever met them has been won over by their personalities - even if they were intimidated by their size and grooming. Is the temperment line specific or general across the breed?
Thanks Ouch! I've been thinking about how to answer this. Temperament is a tough one. How do you define it? What is the degree of inheritability vrs environmental factors (a puppy taken from it's dam/siblings much too early will miss out on important things like learning bite inhibition and may very well grow up to be a crocodile, regardless of how sweet its parents were etc.) And the big question: what is our breed's temperament supposed to be like? From the American breed standard: An adaptable, intelligent dog of even disposition, with no sign of aggression, shyness or nervousness In other words a very stable dog who is confident without being obnoxious about it. We have relatively few breed specific studies aimed at "temperament"; we're beginning to see some related to behavior. And we do know that, just like one of the things that bonds us together is that our dogs all - more or less - look a certain way, they also share behavioral traits (or why else would we be reading 40 "mine-too"s in the behavior/antics sections? ) True, much of it is just generic dog behavior - some times with a decidedly Old English flavor. So there's something in the gene pool that tips the average OES towards X behavior. (They tend to be velcro, stubborn, etc) Could there be something similar for "temperament" or...?
At its most basic, when people talk about bad temperaments, they talk about dogs who readily and with minimal (or much less than average) "provocation" try to take a chunk out of somebody - and they mean business. Usually directed at a person, whether fear or dominance etc related. In lieu of a study, all I have to go by is the assessment of vets, groomers, dog trainers, shelters, and, in our breed, certain key rescue people who should know - plus a certain behavioralist who lives with OES and who made an interesting observational comparison across two major OES sub-populations. If you start to hear a lot of "OES = bad temperament", you ask yourself why? Other breeds are big. Other breeds are intimidating. Why is our breed being singled out? In the US, at least, some of the reputation (and boy is it hard to live down) lingers post-Shaggy Dog movie; the spike in popularity, the indiscriminant breeding that followed to fill the newfound demand. In every breed there will be individuals with undesirable temperament. If you breed without concern for temperament, you can easily end up selecting for bad temperaments by virtue of not selecting against them. Maybe it starts in little ways. A dog that a reputable breeder feels is just a little too far on the edge of appropriate temperament so neuters would not cause a less discriminating breeder much concern. And it snowballs that way. Me? I judge it much more simply: Is this a dog I would want to live with? I've lived with bad temperament. My first OES was from a backyard breeder and though, of course, I loved her to distraction, she was a management project her entire life. She was quite simply not trustworthy. She was fearful of strangers. Could not be trusted with children on any level. Tried to attack most dogs. Once charged a horse I was riding (and she had lots of exposure prior to this) That's not an OES to me. That's not what this breed is about. Had I known then what I know now, I would have at least have had her thyroid tested. As for lines, you hear a little of this, a little of that, but it's hard to say and I wouldn't point a finger even if I could. I think you find pockets of problems here and there even in the showlines but hopefully they are quickly weeded out. Certainly there are differences among lines, most I would not consider outright bad temperament - though there are individuals here and there - or perhaps a line here or there that tends towards sharper dogs than I personally like, things like that. That's a different issue, though, as long as they fall within the range of what would be considered appropriate OES temperament. Funny story: I fell in love with Belle because of her temperament. I waited more than two years to call her mine, because of her temperament. She's gone everywhere with me; we've played with sheep, we've done agility, obedience, she's been to demos were she was literally swarmed by a couple of dozen children, she's been a therapy dog at an ahlzheimer's facility. Her temperament is beyond rapproach. SO, one day after a chiro visit, the vet, who teaches VOM in the US and abroad, and lectures all over the world, asked if he could take a picture of her - he wanted something to spice up and lighten the otherwise heavy topic of neurology. Sure! Why not? He grabs his digital camera, I leave her in a sit-stay, he takes picture, end of story. By the time of our next visit, he's given his Belle-enhanced presentation twice. Now, she was groomed when we went, but he had mussed up her 'do pretty extensively - she looked like a haystack in the picture. Also, instead of one topknot, I use two - even agility judges have commented on the resemblance to horns...Finally, he didn't discover until later that the picture had red-eye. OK, so here is this horned, red-eyed pictorial monster who looks like she's been through a wind-tunnel. Picture a gray & white Tasmanian Devil if you will. he told me later that the Hawaiian audience gasped when she hit the screen, but recovered enough that he heard some chuckles here and there. His German audience went dead quiet until finally one person asked him increduously if he actually worked on that dog and whether or not he has to muzzle her. When he told me I was laughing so hard I almost hit the floor. So can looks be deceiving? Sure they can.
Kristine |
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