Angry puppy?
First of all, I want to say that I am thrilled to be part of the OES community and look forward to getting to know you all 
Harvey has been with me now for 2 weeks, and is 3 months old. He is such a joy to have around.....so cheeky, playful and very intelligent. Within a few days he was more or less housetrained. I have the odd puddle here and there but thats to be expected. And over the last couple of days has learnt to play "fetch" which is very exciting
I have just one teeny concern about Harvey, and really hope that you can help me with this. Every evening, between about 7 - 8pm is when he goes through his mad toddler phase...runs around like a looney chewing everything in sight. However, over the last week, during this time he suddenly becomes aggressive, bareing his teeth, growls and takes pot shots at my face. Honestly, this is not normal puppy play; he growls, and snarls and will take chunks out of me given half a chance! Now as soon as I start to see him lose control I take him to the kitchen and leave him there for a few minutes until he has calmed down. Usually, after this everything returns to being great. I want to make sure that I am doing the right thing. I don't get angry with him or smack him....I really want to be a calm mummy, and bring him up to not be fearful of me. However, I am not sure that he is actually learning that this behaviour is not acceptable, and I really need to correct it as he will be around small children quite frequently (not my own). Please can you offer me some advice as to where I am going wrong
sorry about the long post. |
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| Sounds like the internal spring inside puppy has gotten wound a bit too tight by the evening. Highly suggest a good long walk and play time to wear the little fellow out, before that Tasmanian Devil appears.
Ron has a term for this wild behavior......FRAP, or something like that. Appears in all ages, sudden crazed runabout. Problem with puppies is they haven't yet learned mouths are not part of the operation. You have to get on him quickly to stop his mouthing. Whether during this wild time or any other time during the day. It's a sheepdog trait that can be diverted. If not caught and corrected, you'll have a nipper or biter on your hands. Catch the guy, lay him down and hold him down firmly but not hard. Keep him down until his mind and body quit spinning and he relaxes. Don't get angry, think about something calming while holding him down. |
| Welcome to the forum!
FRAP wasn't my term, I think it started on this forum with Floofdog(Jil), and she may have gotten it from the book: Good Owners, Great Dogs, by Brian Kilcommons It's a great term! We've used the term "Sheepie 500" to describe the same frenetic activity. The growling and snapping I'd guess is just part of the being out of control. Sounds to me like you're handling it perfectly, but I'm sure others will offer their opinions too! Again, welcome! |
| Welcome! Sounds like by being calm you've won half of the "battle" so to speak. Your pup will soon realize that you will play and encourage him only so far when he gets excited, which is great. I remember just praising Bingley like CRAZY every time I caught him "being good" and if I thought he got too rough in play I would be instantly stop the roughhousing and try to create a calm environment again. If a little time out in the kitchen is working, thats good. |
| Walks--on a leash, are excellent. If you insist on your dog heeling for at least part of the walk (and good behavior during all of the walk) you will give him both physical and mental exercise. This will help tremendously. In fact, about 630-7:30 (depending on our dinner time that day) is walk time for our horde of dogs.
I admit that sometimes I rough house a bit too much with my Archie. We have some mock growling games--our family thinks he sounds like a demented Wookie. Yet it's all in fun. Once in a whilem, we get too carried away and his tooth colides with some part of me---I respond with a sharp "OW!!!!" at which Archie always looks both shocked and very contrite. I would try that: a sharp, loud, disapproving sound: OW! would work, and then immediate disengagement from whatever contact. If he tries to re-initiate, even if it's to cuddle up, turn him away--until you decide he's calm enough. It's calm affection when YOU decide. It's play when YOU decide. It's quiet when YOU decide. I know this can be hard, but once you figure out it's really your job to decide, it becomes much easier. Sophie is an attention pest--she absolutely craves not just being next to or on top of us, but being scratched or petted or rubbed in some way. She will head butt us, or paw at us to get us to pet her--and it's hard to ignore the impulse to give her the attention she craves. But she's a pest, so I have to force myself to ignore her until she's lying quietly and not pestering. She knows---she's just learning to fight her impulse, too. Training really is a two way street. |
| This is normal for a sheepie, it's just that it needs to be diffused as soon as possible. Our puppy used to do the same, before he had his jabs so we were not walking him yet. We would take turns playing with him, about half hour each until he settled down a bit in the evenings. If he got out of control we just quickly but calmly put him in the room next door where there is not too much he can destroy and IGNORE his barking. He would settle down after about 5 or 10 mins, we would let him back in and praise him lots for being calm.
It will be over soon, don't worry!  |
| Welcome!!!! I have 7 month old Heart and she has a "witching" hour too!! She barrels around the house aggrevating the other 2...Sounds like you (and me too) are getting some excellent advice!!!!
(BTW....we LOVE pictures!!!!! and I love the name...Harvey!!!!)  |
| Thank you all so much for the fantastic advice.
I had quite a bad evening with Harvey yesterday. We went through most of the evening with him being rather snappy and resulting each time in being taken to his time-out area (the kitchen  ). The last time he was there for about 30 minutes before he eventually calmed down. It was so distressing listening to him obviously in an upset state. So, today I have had two moments where he has needed calming down and I have tried the method mentioned by SheepieBoss. I held him down firmly whilst talking to him in a calm voice and within seconds he was perfectly calm!! Amazing! Thank you so much!
He really is the most beautiful and fun dog and this probably sounds stupid but I actually feel that these moments are bringing us closer! I will post some pics later - you might regret asking |
| We never regret asking for pictures - how ever many - I promise! Welcome from another UK member. My 14 week old puppy Poppy does the same. She chooses to race around the lounge, up on one sofa, accross the back of the sofa - down, round the room and then the same accross the other sofa! Quite funny to watch but not so funny when she did this the other evening just as hubby had settled on the sofa with a (rather large!) glass of red wine. I had no idea one glass of red wine could actually go so far! |
| Ditto the red wine! We had to scrub the carpets & re-paint the fireplace (it's white) after Ru's antics. Why does it stain blue?? |
| Oh yeah, red wine can fly!!!
Glad the hold down worked, you don't need to talk to him during this (he would do better with no sound, we are the ones who need the sound, ). Also no rubbing....just hold. Mommy dogs do this too......hold the puppies down until the wild child's brain returns to normal. In time you'll find a simple quick touch will work. |
| I'm glad you are finding some things that work! Now that Tucker is getting big (65lbs) we can no longer hold him down with our hands, so we gently crouch down on top of him so that our body is covering his and he is laying down. We say nothing until he relaxes, then we speak gently to him and when we're sure he's calm we get up, and voila! Works almost every time, even if he's just extra-playful or barky.
Some people refer to this as the "alpha roll" and I have read that some people also have an opposition to this, however I personally think that it is all in how it is done. If you are gentle but firm, I don't see the harm. If you are ever able to watch The Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan he does this a lot. As someone mentioned, it is what mother dogs do to their young, which is what Millan emulates. It looks harsh the way he does it, but remember that he is a professional and usually working with very dominant, aggressive, or rambunctious dogs. |
| I had always done something like this before Cesar appeared, but he helped me refine my technique. (removed my anger or frustration)
A friend had a wild Rottie and pulled an Alpha Takedown and Roll when the dog was hinting at being aggressive towards the vet. Friend was tiny, barely 90 lbs, dog was heavier. All done in a split second, no sound........vet ended up plastered against the wall, eyes wide, "Remind me never to pi** you off." |
| The "Alpha roll" has been disputed as being effective. It was used years ago, then found to be a bad idea. It is dangerous and does nothing to help the dog calm down "by himself."
What is does is put the dog into a sense of "helplessness". If you want to have your dog fear you and potentially become defensive, just continue using force on him. CM is not a professional as he has no credentials at all. He uses out-dated methods that work because they are forced onto the dog. Just like duct-tape will stop a dog from barking... Does't change the way the dog feels, but will make him fearful of duck-tape...and is cruel. Holding a puppy down until he has stopped squirming will help make him fear your hands and not trust you. He will run away or maybe even bite you, afraid that he will get pinned. I would never do it to a dog...never.. There are much better ways to calm a puppy down that do not involved frightening him or making him distrustful of the person who is supposed to be his protector. If you choose to use methods that are forceful and the dogs do not understand, just like CM does, do not be surprised when they backfire. Good luck. |
| I completely respect your opinion, Nicole, and it is one that has come up several times in the research I have done. Many people also share your opinions of Cesar Millan, and again, I do understand those opinions although I do not share them. CM claims that his techniques are based completely upon how wolves treat each other in the wild, and his philosophy is that since all dogs share ancestry with the wolves, this is a "language" that they understand.
That said, I would not try most of his techniques on my own, because of the very fear that I would do them wrong and subsequently end up as you suggested, with a dog that would fear my touch - obviously no one wants that. I do, however, really like the mentality of making sure that you really believe you are the dog's leader (whether you want to call it alpha, pack leader, master, whatever) and that you try to communicate this through the way you interact with your dog, the way you carry yourself, talk to him, etc. Whether a person does this with his techniques or anyone else's doesn't matter much to me. As long as they build a strong, healthy relationship with each other. As for the alpha roll itself, the way CM does it is certainly more aggressive than I ever am. The way I do it, I kneel behind Tucker and ask him to lay down, which he does. Then I simply cover his body with mine - all of my weight is on my own hands and knees, I'm just leaning over him, petting him gently. Then I get up and he gets up and he is calmer. I really believe Tucker loves me just as much and has not developed any sort of fear or anything of that nature because of this. |
SheepieBoss wrote: "Remind me never to pi** you off."
LOL! When Bailey was a puppy I would roll him when he got too wired up - not daily, but every now and again. It doesn't appear to have caused any problems. In fact, he has a habit of rolling on his back in the hopes of getting a nice tummy rub, so in his case he may have considered it a reward
I agree that the best approach is exercise. Even as a 3 year old Bailey is a much calmer dog all day when he gets a nice long walk in the morning. Good luck! |
| Frustration and aggression towards to the dog elevates the dog's frustration and aggression back. A takedown, sudden and rapid is aggression. (In my friend's case, the situation was going Red Zone quickly and this solution was the tool she chose....but then it was her Rottie, not a strange dog. She did not use it often. Yes, this was back in the 1980s when this was a bit more acceptable)
OTOH, a gentle but firm lay down and hold should not be aggressive. If you were to talk (which is not recommended) you'd be saying, "Calm yourself, no need to be hyper, rellaaaaxxxx." When the dog surrenders, sighs and relaxes, then they can be released or if you want to rub gently, OK. I suspect Baily was rubbed and stroked after he settled hence you now have a "tummy rub boy." I've had dog launch themselves to the floor in hopes of a tummy rub........always the boy dogs.......hmmmm 
As for the grab and hold, fine. But not with a strange dog!!! or if your own dog still has "grumbles" as does my Jack. Three years later he still growl-grumbles when he disagrees with me. He gets a quick verbal zzzzzttt and it stops. CMs ways are as much about people training as dog training. How often have you seen commands given and then countered by the human giving them through their body action or voice. How many people are totally clueless the reason their dog has problems is the upright is at fault? Or they believe (like my DH) a dog can be verbally reasoned with? 
Rewards and distration techniques are additional tools. (If I wasn't so spastic I'd probably use clicker training as well.) |
SheepieBoss wrote: I had always done something like this before Cesar appeared, but he helped me refine my technique. (removed my anger or frustration)
A friend had a wild Rottie and pulled an Alpha Takedown and Roll when the dog was hinting at being aggressive towards the vet. Friend was tiny, barely 90 lbs, dog was heavier. All done in a split second, no sound........vet ended up plastered against the wall, eyes wide, "Remind me never to pi** you off." Actually, I did this, split second thing, with Sophie and Sheman, simultaneously when they simultaneously jumped and overwhelmed a much beloved guest in our house. There was no thought involved on my part--just an absolute intent of : No! My guest had her arms full of packages and really wasn't able to fend for herself. Also both Sophie and Sherman know very well that jumping is not allowed--although sometimes, their impulses get the better of them. After all, they are less than 2 years old. Is either dog afraid of me now? Not at all--and weren't when I put them down or when they were let up again. Was that the ideal thing to do? Probably not. However, my dogs do absolutely know that "no" means "no" and not "hey, maybe could you think about stopping that because jumping on people is a little obnoxious?" Sophie, in particular, struggles with obedience to her alphas and obedience to her own desires: you can watch the struggle on her face. She absolutely requires a stronger stance than her brothers who are much more laid back and easy going. Is putting a dog down something that I go to, first off? Not at all. But I won't exclude it from my repertoire, fashion or no fashion. Interestingly enough, Archie, who was always the family goof ball until the puppies came, has taken on the job of 'enforcer'. He is quick to remind Sophie or Sherman if either is being obnoxious. It was simply a matter of luck in the situation above that I was closer to the action than he was. |
The "witching hour" in Bella's case I think it should start with a "B" not a "w". She will decide that she is not getting enough attention and will start the "bullet" routine and barking at one or both of us. This usually happens about 7:30 – 8:00 PM. What we’ve done is calmly put her on the long leash. She’ll walk around for a bit and just lay down . After a while she’ll want to go out side and we let her off the leash and she’s fine for the rest of the night. By the way this is after a 3 to 4 mile walk before dinner and playing fetch in the house. It’s almost like she is saying “I need to calm down and I need your help.” One problem solved. Now if I could just get her to walk at a heel and stop taking the rugs out into the snow!  |
| I remember when our last sheepie was a puppy she was really aggressive. Hubby lost his temper with her once after she snapped at him, and ended up with a bleeding thumb. We used to take her away from the situation in the kitchen and let her back when she calmed. some nights we did this about 10 times (taking it in turns) until she go the message.
Summer has her mad 5 minutes. We pick the yorkie up and stand back. She goes from the kitchen door through the house front room and back again. Where she does it in the garden she has worn a track round the fish pond down the garden through the bushes and back again...like a little racing track. Yorkie gets on the garden bench and just watches disapprovingly. |
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