questions about the breed
We've always had Golden Retrievers, but we've fallen in love the the OES, and think one would be a great member of our family! I've got a few questions about the breed. Are the males significantly larger then the females, or are they around the same. Are all the puppies black and white, and then the black turns more grey as they get older? Is it true that they don't shed, if kept regularly groomed? We have two young kids, and I've heard that OES' are generally mellow and gentle, although also playful, is this true for the most part? Any suggestions on what to look for in a puppy? Thanks so much! Kari |
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| Welcome to the community!
While there are exceptions, males tend to be much larger than females. I think females run around 65-70 pounds and males around 85 or 90. I had a male at 106 (he could have lost 5 or 6 pounds), my current is about 83-85 and no fat at all. I have heard of small boys around 60 or 65 and large fairly fit females around 90. All of this is pure non-scientific observation.
Yes, pups are black and white and the VAST majority turn grey very young. Yes, adult OES do not have a shedding season. They have a lot of hair and just like you (and especially me) it falls out and can be found around the house, on clothes and in the car on the fabric seats. Puppies go through 1 (or 2?) sheddings as they transition from their puppy coats to their adult coats. Grooming takes an incredible amount of time; the hair grows everywhere and MUST be attended to: In the ears, between the pads in their armpits, around their private parts. If you want a fluffy dog in long hair, you need to understand that each inch of hair length adds approximately 1 hour of grooming per week. A big fluffy show dog has 12 inches of hair, so you're looking at 8 or 10 hours per week just brushing, brushing, brushing. I keep my guy in a puppy cut year round. Gentle? We need to be on the same definition. Yes, most adults will be sweet dogs and wouldn't intentionally hurt anyone, but they are generally a very large boisterous clumsy puppy-like dog for many years! If your children are small they will be knocked down, knocked over, scratched, head butted, dragged and whatever else you can think of. "Children in the house" is the number 1 reason why sheepdogs are turned into rescue programs. All that said, many small children do just fine with their sheepdog. I guess it will depend on your children's temperament and to some extent your dog's temperament, as long as you understand you're NOT getting a lapdog, and it's not a hound that will lie at your feet and sleep all the time. They have HUGE energy and need to be exercised all the time. |
| Wow - that was really helpful - thank you!!! |
| Kari--
Welcome to the forum!!! You will get excellent advice and suggestions here.... (as well as some great friends.) I am a relative newbie to this site. My "Heart" arrived in August and is now 7 months old. I don't know what I would have done without this site! So many things come up especially in the first 6 months that are of concern, from teething to sleepless nights to potty training etc... and it is great that I can send a thread out to the forum and get so much advice and support--even at 2 in the morning!!!! On to your questions.....Ron is so right on with his responses...He is one of the persons to count on for advice about any situation. I find dust-bunnies all around my house from the sheepie hair and most times if they rub on me(I have 2 sheepies and a beardie) I have no shedding on my clothes. Heart is 7 months old and is graying from her tusch to her head.....she is rapidly losing her puppy coat which is soft and velvety and it is being replaced with the adult coat--wavy, a little coarser-- I have read that the OES is the "nanny" of the dog breed. This may not be true, but it did endear me to the breed when I read it. They are also known as the clowns. If Pearl, my other OES does something and I laugh, she will do it again, and again...They love to hear laughter. They are people dogs so they must be with their pack all the time or they will not be happy ( and neither will you...their bark is very obnoxious at times) and since they are herding dogs, they will try to herd you as you run through the house... 
The down side to this breed---grooming and brushing ....Alot of the forum will keep the pup in a shorter cut with is very accepted and cuts down on the brushing alot. There is much much more and you can search for a specific subject at the top of the page and go through past posts and thread to some expert advice!!! Good Luck...and please post pictures when you get your furbaby...... we all love to see pictures!!!! |
| Hello and welcome from Petawawa, ON!
As Ron mentioned, it depends on a large degree to the temperaments of your children and your dog. Tucker (9 1/2 months old) adores children, and although he used to jump up at them to see their faces, he is now big enough that he rarely ever does this. We actually had a 9 month old little girl visiting here the other day. She sat with Tucker on the floor and pulled at him, smacked his back, and hooked her finger into his lip and gently yanked it. What did he do this whole time? Just lie there! If we had done those things to him he would have been trying to lick our hands, but he just laid there and let her do it. We were beyond impressed and proud, especially since children will be coming into our lives in the next few years. Good luck with all your research. They are absolutely amazing dogs, as you can tell but the fanatics on this website (myself included)! |
Mel & Tucker wrote: We actually had a 9 month old little girl visiting here the other day. She sat with Tucker on the floor and pulled at him, smacked his back, and hooked her finger into his lip and gently yanked it. What did he do this whole time? Just lie there! If we had done those things to him he would have been trying to lick our hands, but he just laid there and let her do it. We were beyond impressed and proud, especially since children will be coming into our lives in the next few years.
I can't help but comment on this. A child should NEVER be allowed to taunt a dog in this way! What you think is "cute" can be very annoying and even painful for the dog. Hair pulling, poking, sitting on, riding, etc., You're setting the dog up for failure and possible injury. They're not stuffed animals and not built to give pony rides. As soon as the dog lets out a growl or in extreme cases, a bite, who gets blamed??? The dog ends up in a shelter if he's lucky and many times is euthanized. I'm not saying that what you did in this instance actually mistreated the dog but I'd be very concerned with such a small child given this kind of freedom with a very large animal. It really gives people who are unfamiliar with the breed a distorted sense of what is acceptable treatment. When something goes wrong, it's always the dog's fault. |
| Oh no - I think I miscommunicated! I re-read my post and it did sound awfully violent. There were 4 adults all right beside this child, and she wasn't hurting him at all. She was simply holding on to his fur, and tapping him with the same amount of pressure you would use to pat the dog on the head. I would never permit anyone, infant or other, to be harsh with him or put him in any situation where he may react in a less than desired way. Please forgive me for making it sound like something other than what it was, and trust that I am a very careful and responsible dog owner and lover. |
| Due to young sheepdog's physical nature, many sheepdog rescues will not adopt a dog to households with small children. Also this is not a first time dog for someone. Previous dog knowledge and training is a must. All the energy must be channeled correctly. Young dogs are "mouthy" that is they will use that big opening for grabbing, mouthing, nibbling, etc. It takes a knowledgeable owner to redirect that energy.
That said, sheepies are like goldies in that they want to please, they live to please.......but don't have the super drive to please as say retrievers. They don't learn quickly so training is challenging (and often funny). Still they amaze me with their creativity and clownish nature. As for grooming, I repeat, they don't shed like a goldie. The hair is lost, but often stays in the coat and must be brushed and combed out often. Grooming isn't a slap dab job. It's a detailed section by section to the skin type grooming. One hour? On a small dog. Otherwise, regular trips to the groomer for a nice fuzzy puppy cut does nicely. |
| My children were 13, 9, 6 and 4 when we acquired our first OES. We currently have 3 OES, as well as grown up children (the 4 year old is now 20).
Our OES have been wonderful with children, even as puppies. That said, it cannot be stressed enough that the very best OES will knock children (and sometimes adults) down in regular play. They grow very quickly in the physical sense, but as far as sense/mental maturity--that doesn't really start until 18-24 months, by which time the dog is anywhere from 60 lbs to 110--or more (my first was very svlete at 100 lbs but not bad at 110). Puppies of any breed will chew--anything and everything, including fingers and toes, clothing, shoes, favorite toys, etc. OES are herding dogs, so they will want to herd by nipping at running people, including children. This can be trained out of them, but it is an instinct that is strong in the breed, although it does vary by individual. We took great care to make sure all of our dogs got to spend a lot of time with children of all ages. They've all been especially good at gearing their activity level to their judgement of what the childen around can tolerate. They also form expectations of what behavior they should get from children of various ages: mine will tolerate anything from a small child but by the time the child is 6 or so, they expect him or her to know some decent manners and will back away from bad treatment. 3 things are mandatory before acquiring any dog: 1. Select for excellent temperment--and physical health, but honestly, temperment. You want a stable, calm dog. 2. You must commit to a lot of exercise for the dog--several walks of more than 15 minutes a day, minimum. On a leash. 3. Obedience classes. You and your dog will need to learn and to have the motiviation of a class to practice basic obedience. Come, stop, stay, down, drop it are all invaluable commands. You need to know your children will be knocked down sometimes. You might be, as well. All dogs must be supervised with children, no matter the age of child or dog. This is not negotiable, but basic safety. |
| Welcom to the forum
Ron wrote: as long as you understand you're NOT getting a lapdog, and it's not a hound that will lie at your feet and sleep all the time. They have HUGE energy and need to be exercised all the time. The above is correct the only thing I would like to add is the bobtail has forgotten he is not a lap dog because most of the time they do try to sit on your lap. |
| My children have learned at an earlier age...no running...the dog will knock you down. They are 12 and 14 now, and will get chased if they run in the house!!! |
SheepieBoss wrote: They don't learn quickly so training is challenging (and often funny). Still they amaze me with their creativity and clownish nature.
I'd argue that the problem is that they learn too quickly and are often easily bored, which is when the creativity kicks in.... 
A Golden typically aims to please and can take repetitious training in stride. An OES also aims to please - herself; well, you too, as long as it also pleases herself  And, in training, mindless repetition and drilling can bore them senseless. (On avg, male OES are more like Goldens)
I had a private agility lesson with one of my girls yesterday and we set her up to let her reason something out for herself. She tried fourteen different ways of performing the same exercise, some of them varieties even the instructor had not seen before! We were impressed
They really are a fun breed to train, but some of them are too smart for their own (and your) good
Kristine |
| Hi,
I'd have to agree with Kristine, do something once that an oes likes and it becomes tradition. These are very smart dogs and usually learn very quickly. However, a person explained the difference to me between say a golden and an oes once and I do agree. "Ask a golden to sit and they will. Ask a OES to sit and they'll ask you why?" Zach |
| I cannot give any other advice that has not already been given. Just do lots of research when looking for your dog. Get a good breeder OESCA registered. No back yard breeders! Zack, you said it correct about asking the oes to sit and them asking "why"? So true!!!! |
| My first sheepie died very young and I was able to get another one fairly quickly, he was a wonderful dog and very intelligent although he was a boss, when the second one came to take over our lives I decided to train him in English as the first one had been trained also in English, the problem was when I gave them a command the younger one would ignore it, I thought time to change so I taught him commands in German, when out with the two of them it wasn't a problem with the two commands the problem was it didn't matter which command I gave the older dog done it and the younger dog would look at me as if to say didn't he do well. I have never had a breed of dog like the OES and I do not think there is another one to match perfect companions, comedians, better than any doctor then they know what is wrong and in their special way try to help. |
| I welcome you to the forum. I would not attempt to add to the wonderful advise that there is here all ready in responce to your question. The first sheepie I ever got to know was my wife's dog. I am now pleased to say that I have been owned by two sheep dogs. In the right situations they are the best dogs ever but they do require a lot of care and attention and training. If that is what you are willing to commit to sheepies will return your investment ten times over. If it is not maybe you should consider another dog.
But Welcome and good luck. |
| A word of warning to anyone who is thinking of buying an Old English Sheepdog puppy !. This bonny little soul that you become at about eight weeks old, arrives with feet that are at least three sizes to big. They chew anything they get their teeth into. They are so playful that they don't know when to stop. They have'nt been house trained so therefore accidents will happen. They grow very quickly and are very nosey, so you must not leave anything of value within their reach. They now come with a brush that sweeps everything of the coffee table when they get excited while visiters have come. They bring dustbins full of dirt into the house. They need a lot of regular grooming. And last but not least they can make you mad with their antics. Believe me I know what I'm talking about ! As reward you will get a companion, who when fully grown will give so much in return when given the chance. They will share your sorrow and comfort you when you are sad. They will share your happiness in times of joy. And they can help you relax after a hard days work by just being there. There are pro's and contra's with everything, although here the contra's come before the pro's, I can only advise anyone with doubts, don't give up then I promise you will be rewarded in the end, at least ten times over. |
| In many cases, having an OES puppy is not a lot different than having any other large breed puppy.
Am I wrong? Obviously the grooming is a major exception... |
| Well said Stewart. So true.
Zach |
Mel & Tucker wrote: In many cases, having an OES puppy is not a lot different than having any other large breed puppy.
Am I wrong? Obviously the grooming is a major exception... Different breeds have huge personality differences even in the puppy stage, especially depending on what type of dog they (herding, working, non-sporting, sporting, etc.). I think it probably isn't as obvious unless you've had two young large puppies of different breeds together and then the big differences really come out. OES are troublemakers, velcro dogs and huge doofuses (well, forever, not just as puppies!) . My Komondor, even as a pup, was much more independent, more stoic, much lower energy level. He doesn't play unless played with first. Clyde rallies him up every time and always has. Their temperaments are like night and day. I never noticed breed differences as much as having these two! |
| Herding is a big personality trait---OES are much more inclined to nip at the heels of people running by. Another big trait is the 'intense need for affection' --OES are not as independent, as a breed, as many other breeds are. But being accustomed to a large breed would be a big help: OES grow physically at a much quicker rate than they do mentally, so you have a giant 80 lb puppy bouncing all over everywhere.
On the other hand, labs are extremely common in my neck of the woods. My vet has commented on how calm (relatively speaking) Sophie and Sherman (and Archie and Merlin before them) were compared with other puppies--specifically labs, who came in for their check ups. We brought Sherman and Sophie in at the same time, and they shared an exam room . Apparently this doesn't always work well with other breeds. Reading about other OES families, I think that I have dogs who are perhaps calmer in nature that what I read about with other OES. Mine sure do love to romp and play, but they mostly are very calm--a notable exception being still excited when interesting people come to the door (my oldest son's girl friend is widely regarded by OES as a giant human toy), or at certain times of the day (walk, treat) if certain people (hubby vs me) are in charge. I am a stricter parent and they are quieter when I collect leashes and poop bags vs my husband. Mine tend not to wander much, and really do like to have their people together. They don't much like it if we split off into separate groups when walking, or if someone is left behind for any reason at all. |
| I've had my pair of OES puppies now for 4 weeks; They will be 12 weeks old on Wednesday.
To be honest; its been a challenge. However its also been the most amazing experience, and I wouldn't trade it for the world. When I was young we had sheepdogs; and while its true that your females are often smaller than your males, we had three 100 pound females when I was a kid, and these weren't fat dogs, just BIG. However, in contrast, the dam to my puppies was only 65 pounds. My puppies are a joy and, as I mentioned earlier, a challenge. They DO want to be around you all the time; which is good because I work from home. Or I would work from home if I could get much work done! Either they want to play, and want your attention, or they are being SO cute you just have to go and cuddle with them. OR they are being so funny you can't help but put down what you are doing to go get your camera. OR they are being so mischeivious that you have to watch them like a hawk. OR.... You get the picture. Since getting my two girls a month ago they have doubled in size. Walks are interesting, as the two of them together weigh 50+ pounds, and I'm only a bit more than twice that. We've started training, and what everyone is saying is true, to a certain degree. One of my pups is REALLY smart; she picks up all her commands the first time around. The other gets it, but isn't always interested in participating. I mean, chasing leaves in the yard is WAY more fun than "sitting"! Good luck with your choice of a companion. For me; there never was a choice. My family had Sheepies growing up, and its the only dog for me. |
| How many of you knew Bobtail is an abrieviation for
B = Boisterous O = Obedient B = Beautiful T = Talented A = Arduous I = Intelligent L = Loyal |
I like it!  |
| Perfect! |
| My husband grew up with Goldens and didn't really know what to expect when we got Bingley. One of the differences in breed (I don't think this was mentioned above) is the face. OES have beards - depending on how long you keep the coat - and Goldens don't. Obviously. What might not be so obvious is what stays attached to that hair. Your lap and legs get a little bit of whatever your sheepie is drinking or eating at the moment - lol. If you're not a big slobber person you may not appreciate the wet beard . . . I have found that Bingley doesn't slobber any more than another breed would, but he still carries his water dish around in his beard. SOoo - that is one difference.
Bingley was less jumpy as a puppy than the Golden pups my husband was used to but WAY more mouthy/nippy. We had to teach the "stuff it" trick early and enforce it!
Really, it is a wonderful breed and if you're prepared for the work of the coat and the difference in personality, you'll love it. My husband - Golden lover extraordinaire - can't imagine life without our Bing so I imagine you could go the same way! |
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