"Calling all OES breeders"
What is a resonable price for a quality OES? One that comes from champion lines, thyroid, hips, eyes and elbows tested.... all the trimmings. What factors determine the final price? Of course the health tests, some show expenses, vet care but what about Contrats of different variations such as spay/nuet or breeders as part owners? I was just thinking about our dog world this morning and this was a subject I need more clarification on. I understand the benifits of buying from a reputable breeder but the amout of people I come across that don't, is crazy. Cost is always the bottom line. I want to be able to present to them all the facts so they can see that buying from a reputable breeder is a win win situation. I appreciate any helpful tips in regaurds to bettering my knowledge in this matter. |
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| I think you'll get a little variance depending on what part of the country that you're in but the number should range from about $1300- $1500 and up, especially depending on the breeder and the success of that kennel. I know others will chime in but I believe that number incorporates all the genetic testing, prenatal and vet visits for mom, vet visits for the pups, including health checks, deworming, tail docking, etc., and the breeder's time invested in the litter, including the research into the pedigree, finding the right stud and heck, just the time raising the puppies. I know there's probably even more things that I'm not even thinking about. |
| That's about what I was thinking to. 1,500 to 2,000...
A local Petland is/was selling an OES pup for 1,699!! That was for a Hunt corp pup! Outragious! You can't put a price on quality. |
gromingodess wrote: My question is simply this:
What is a resonable price for a quality OES? One that comes from champion lines, thyroid, hips, eyes and elbows tested.... all the trimmings. What factors determine the final price? Of course the health tests, some show expenses, vet care but what about Contrats of different variations such as spay/nuet or breeders as part owners? I was just thinking about our dog world this morning and this was a subject I need more clarification on. I understand the benifits of buying from a reputable breeder but the amout of people I come across that don't, is crazy. Cost is always the bottom line. I want to be able to present to them all the facts so they can see that buying from a reputable breeder is a win win situation. I appreciate any helpful tips in regaurds to bettering my knowledge in this matter. In reply to your question, the lines have a lot to do with the breeding aspect, as a first time breeder we took advice from a well respected breeder who breed our bitch, although I picked the dog (actually he was second choice) I asked her opinion regarding the stud dog and received her approval as a very good choice. Both Sire and Dam from our first litter are Multi Champions and come from Champion lines, this way I could research to see what has been breed and how I can improve my future line where and if possible. If I was to try and regain the money I spend on going to shows I would never be able to sell the puppies as they would be so expensive, I have shown my bitch in Germany, Denmark, Holland, Spain, France, Luxenburg, Italy & Gibraltar gaining titles in nearly all of these countries. Showing is for me as for all of the breeders I know is a hobby which we enjoy, nearly all breeders do not breed for the money like the puppy farms, there is a big difference if you raise the puppies in the family or in an outhouse in your yard. In Germany we have rules which we must follow and this is watched closely by the respective clubs, we receive two visits from a representative of the club to inspect the litters and that they are in a healthy condition at the time of the inspection, when the puppy buyer collects their much loved pup they will have been entwormed (more than once), injected for all necessary illnesses, the vet will have given the pup a health test, the pup may have been chipped or tattooed and finally you will receive a pedigree from the respective club which should be a member of the FCI, all this costs money. As far as a contract is concerned, yes all breeders have a contract differing in one way or the other, I do not agree that a breeder has the right to demand that a puppy be speyed or neutered, a breeder who demands this is hiding something in my opinion, neither do they have the right to determine if a puppy is shown or not, of coarse if the puppy is not show quality it is not in their interest to see it being shown but you cannot forbid this. Part ownership varies from breeder to breeder and is for the puppy buyer not a bad thing as it usually means a vast reduction in the price, also varies from breeder to breeder. My priorities were that both dogs be hip scored and free from HD (HD A in Germany) of coarse they must be eye tested and passed as clear, as there are no stipulations about testing for the elbows neither dog has been tested regarding any further illnesses, in my opinion these other illnesses such as thyriod and ED do happen but not to an extent that we have too test all the dogs for these illnesses we are only making ourselves and of coarse the puppy buyers insecure. Lastly there are not many breeders who will make the price of their puppies public as this is a private thing between them and the puppy buyer, sorry regarding this part. Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo |
gromingodess wrote: A local Petland is/was selling an OES pup for 1,699!! That was for a Hunt corp pup! Outragious!
I'm glad you mentioned this. I think some of the misnomers about buying from a breeder is that one thinks that they could never afford to buy from a reputable breeder. When in fact they are about the same price as buying from a pet store, if not cheaper. |
| Dairymaid,
Just curious. If you do not require spey or neuter do you have a contract against breeding without your authorization? Zach |
dairymaid wrote: As far as a contract is concerned, yes all breeders have a contract differing in one way or the other, I do not agree that a breeder has the right to demand that a puppy be speyed or neutered, a breeder who demands this is hiding something in my opinion, neither do they have the right to determine if a puppy is shown or not, of coarse if the puppy is not show quality it is not in their interest to see it being shown but you cannot forbid this.
Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo In the US, the spay/neuter contract has nothing to do with hiding anything, and everything to do with a certain OESCA code of ethics. We are not only responsible for every puppy we produce for life, woe to the breeder whose puppy ends up churning out BYB/puppymill puppies that in turn end up in rescue and... I would question the assumption that routine thyroid testing is not necessary - exhibit A: the mess the North American OES population is in in this regard; back-yard bred and show lines alike. Not testing catches up with you eventually and even if by chance the European lines were somehow luckier in this regard, there are a lot of American lines being brought in, along with some well-established thyroid/other immune mediated issues. It would be foolhardy to ignore this. I preach the same thing to any Australian breeder who will listen. (Yes, I'm endlessly annoying that way). But I've spent too much of this past year too deep in pedigrees to not see the trend. I'll refrain from launching into a rousing chorus of "It's a small world after all". My singing voice has been known to frighten young children and certainly makes my poor dogs howl. 
By the way, just to sneak that in there, here's another way to share more OES health data - the OESCA Open health registry: http://www.oescahealthregistry.org/ A partial list of CA affected dogs is up. More to follow as more dogs are released. After CA, cancer and then hopefully some of the immune-mediated diseases. Thyroid status can already be checked at www.offa.org and http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=SD Kristine |
| Hi Zach, in Europe we have puppy mills but not to the extent you seen to have in the States, I will have a clause in my contract that will cover the part regarding breeding but certainly not expecting my puppy buyers to have any operations carried out on the dog. Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo  |
| Thanks, for the reply Dairymaid. I was curious to how things are done over there. I don't like the surgeries either. I have it in my contracts but don't enforce it unless something with the new owners throw me a red flag. Also, incase a family down the road decides to show or the pups turns out nice and they decide to breed with my approval and help. I want it in the contract to be able back up on if necessary to stop something I don't want. It also helps me protect the kennel names of the wonderful folks that have allowed me to breed with their dogs. They have worked so hard and long to produce quality OES, I wouldn't want to damage their reputation in any way. Also, if my girls are unable to produce and I want to continue with the lines I have, it's not a bad idea to have some of your offspring available as back up if the owners are kind enough to work with you.
Just my thoughts. Zach |
| Hi Zach I like your way of thinking, it would be nice if more breeders thought this way. Respect from all at Tikki-ti-boo |
| Hi Kristine, I respect your remarks and I think very similarly to yourself, I am very aprehensive about using a stud dog from America for a few reasons, you have a slightly different standard, in the states flashes as far as I believe flashes are allowed, not so in Europe, and lastly it is extreamly difficult getting information over the offspring from a stud dog. Regarding Spey/Neuter, I do not know of any breeder in Europe who puts this in their contract, I am not saying it is not done, I just do not know anyone. Your comment about puppy farms is correct but if you sell a pup to someone and they breed with it although it is in the contract to have the dog/bitch spey/neutered, what can be done legally ? In Germany you could not enforce this unless you had the operation done on the pup before you hand it over to the buyer. Regarding the dogs who end up in rescue due to the puppy mills, I think the goverment is called upon here to bring in laws to prevent this sort of thing, e.g. by making the puppy mills responsible for the dogs they produce and sell. Thyroid testing as far as I know is not done anywhere in Europe and I have read various articles regarding this problem in the states in various newspapers, this does worry me somewhat as we are seeing more and more breeders using American stock, I am not saying all American stock is bad but you do have to be sure what is behind the lines and this is extreamly difficult. I would like some more information regarding this from you if you would be so kind. Your remark about a small world is true and in my opinion we are using to much energy on the docking ban and not enough on the major health issues which are becoming a problem. Thanks for the various links I will take a look at them in the next couple of days. At the moment the war cry is we have no good stud dogs available in Europe, to a certain extent this is true, in my opinion part of the reason is the shows, here we see judges placing dogs/bitches without making the slightest comment. When someone new starts showing the can never understand why another dog keeps winning and they never become a reason why their much beloved sheepie was not placed, after a short show period they disappear never to be seen again and we are losing respectable stud dogs and breed bitches. This is purely my opinion. I hope to hear your opinion soon and maybe Lisa or Zach will add something to this article, I am always willing to listen to other opinions, this way you become a broader spectrum to a thema. Long live the healthy Old English Sheepdog. |
I'll end up doing this in spurts or I won't get any sleep  And, as usual, I end up "hi-jacking" a perfectly respectable topic by going off-topic - sorry about that.
Hypothyroidism and other autoimmune/immune-mediated aren't nice and "tidy", like CA, which has a known mode of inheritance and clear diagnosis. And by that I mean we know CA is inevitably inherited. Whereas you can get 17 different opinions on all of the presumed immune mediated diseases and probably twice as many excuses - I have this discussion with my vet (OES breeder, as it happens) regularly. When do we presume it's genetic? Only if the dog is young? What is the cut-off age then? Only if multiple dogs in a litter suffer the same affliction? It can get very dicey. What we do know is that OES have a higher than average rate for most of these IM afflictions than most other breeds, save a handful, do. So there must be a genetic component. What then is the mode of inheritance? Which you need to know to make useful relative risk assessments. Some can be guessed at. Hypothyroidism is quite likely polygenic. I'm developing a small suspiscion that immune-mediated hemolyic anemia (IMHA) on the other hand may actually be autosomal recessive. I could be very wrong. I have too little information. It's all very hush-hush. Bottom line, we need research. The OESCA HRC just convened a subcommittee for Autoimmune diseases and they are, last I heard, looking for research efforts the breed can participate in. They are also coming out with a new breed-wide health survey this year. Perhaps that will shed some more light on the population at large. Frankly, even if I wanted to, I couldn't responsibly say "this" or "that" American line has a problem with X. Some times this dog, maybe. But what exactly does it mean? What I do know is (a) we've been too casual about breeding hypothyroid dogs in this country - many breeders are still reluctant to test, some feeling it's an annoyance disease (afterall, it can be controlled with a simple pill) and we have bigger things to worry about, and (b) there appears to be a rise in (presumed) immune-mediated hemolytic anemia especially. Though, frankly, unlike CA which I know intimately, pretty much all of what I know so far is second-hand to me. I started thinking about the European situation in reverse because I bred to a European import. Yes, I know his thyroid status. But since testing is not customary in Europe, and he has no American lines, I know nothing of what is behind him. That's not a good feeling. You're not alone in feeling there is a dearth of available health information, but especially once you start crossing borders or oceans. I'm not sure what the answer is, except to never take anything for granted and test when you can. More to follow on the splash and s/n issue. Have to get up in a few hours. Horrors!
Kristine |
gromingodess wrote: That's about what I was thinking to. 1,500 to 2,000...
A local Petland is/was selling an OES pup for 1,699!! That was for a Hunt corp pup! Outragious! You can't put a price on quality. Barney was $1500 from a pet store and he CERTAINLY is not a prime specimen of OES. I think when people are willing to spend that much $$ at a pet store, it's the instant satisfaction of seeing the dog, getting the dog, rather than wondering if they spent too much $$ or if they could find a better or cheaper, etc. dog elsewhere. |
| i paid around 350 pound then it was about $600 when hubby went to pick him up he knew he should have walked away but the sight of an underwieght (12 lb and 14 weeks) patchy hair puppy in a plastic storage box was just to much to look at he handed over he cash with out many words took the dog and walked away
einy is small 60lb maybe less, has a lots of grey on him cost me nearly $200 that first weekend in vets fees alone and two vets can't decide whether he has a heart mermor or not (it so slight my uk vet said he has my US vet didn't notice it) i would not trade him for the world and would not move to the states with out him so in an airplane he went. florida agrees with him hes not been ill since we have been here not ear trouble or anything, i was always at the vets in the UK. i had einy nuetered as soon as the vet said he was well and old enough. he is not registered so there was no loss to the breed here 
next time we will get a pup from a proper breeder and i will gladly pay the $1500 + forr one unless the perfect rescue come our way. hubby calls einy our expensive rescue dog - coz heaven know what would have happen to him if we had not taken him home. zoe and einy |
barney1 wrote: Barney was $1500 from a pet store and he CERTAINLY is not a prime specimen of OES. I think when people are willing to spend that much $$ at a pet store, it's the instant satisfaction of seeing the dog, getting the dog, rather than wondering if they spent too much $$ or if they could find a better or cheaper, etc. dog elsewhere.
This discussion reminds me of a conversation I had with a semi-local (well-known, at least among other OESCA breeders, a history of top-winning dogs etc etc etc) breeder this summer. I can't remember what she said she charged, but I think it was $1,500. I'm guessing maybe 1,200-1.500 is pretty typical in this area, but I've never asked anyone specifically and never purchased a dog myself. Anyway, she said she had talked to one potential puppy buyer who gave her an earful about her "exorbitant price". Not long thereafter she spoke with another who informed her that so-and-so charges $2,500 and at $1,500 her puppies must be no good. She just shrugged, rolled her eyes and said "you can't win". I don't know if you'll get a good range of what a typical price is. But if someone is asking about the difference between the $600 OES in the newspaper vrs the $1,500 one from a reputable breeder, the simple distinction, do you care whether or not your puppy's parents were tested to be healthy to the best of the breeder's ability? I tend to just tune out the price discussions. If someone views price as the deciding factor - one way or another - they're already missing so much of the information that makes for sound decision-making that you could spend weeks if not months explaining these things to them and they're usually just going to tune you out anyway. Now, when they go to get their second dog down the road, they may feel very differently. Kristine |
barney1 wrote: gromingodess wrote: That's about what I was thinking to. 1,500 to 2,000... A local Petland is/was selling an OES pup for 1,699!! That was for a Hunt corp pup! Outragious! You can't put a price on quality. Barney was $1500 from a pet store and he CERTAINLY is not a prime specimen of OES. I think when people are willing to spend that much $$ at a pet store, it's the instant satisfaction of seeing the dog, getting the dog, rather than wondering if they spent too much $$ or if they could find a better or cheaper, etc. dog elsewhere. Oh, and I just wanted to mention that I wasn't the one who bought Barney at a pet store. His original owner did. I got him for free  by rescuing him from her... |
Mad Dog wrote: This discussion reminds me of a conversation I had with a semi-local (well-known, at least among other OESCA breeders, a history of top-winning dogs etc etc etc) breeder this summer. I can't remember what she said she charged, but I think it was $1,500. I'm guessing maybe 1,200-1.500 is pretty typical in this area, but I've never asked anyone specifically and never purchased a dog myself. Anyway, she said she had talked to one potential puppy buyer who gave her an earful about her "exorbitant price". Not long thereafter she spoke with another who informed her that so-and-so charges $2,500 and at $1,500 her puppies must be no good.
She just shrugged, rolled her eyes and said "you can't win".Kristine This reminds me of a recent situation with a family who initially was interested in a rescue dog but decided to buy from a breeder. The wife wanted a puppy to be trained as a therapy dog and having an excellent temperament was a priority. The family had done their homework and were looking in the right places but the first puppy that caught their eye was $2.200. Unfortunately, before they decided on this pup, the breeder sold it to someone else so they were back to square one. Ended up that they found a puppy from a highly-respected OESCA member's kennel for about half the price. The family didn't care so much about the price but wanted a healthy pup with a great disposition. There are various reason for the price breeders put on their pups. Whether they think their chances in the show ring are good or if they'd just make a great pet. In this case, the family's desire to certify this pup as a therapy dog may even have gotten them a "discount". Some breeders even have older dogs returned and will sell for a reduced price. Others have retired show dogs that people are willing to place in a good home for little or no fee. Great dogs but unlike most rescues or internet dogs, you know their pedigrees and health history. Bottom line: Look beyond the price tag and do your homework. The family I mentioned above got a great dog who will be doing wonderful service work AND a fabulous breeder who will always be there to assist them with any problems or questions they may have. Try getting that from the Hunte Corporation.  |
Quote: Thyroid testing as far as I know is not done anywhere in Europe If low thyroid is not regularly tested for I do wonder if there are dogs that might be affected but just aren't showing obvious symptoms.  5 of my 6 are hypothyroid and on Soloxine... but we test annually and most pet-quality dog owners don't do this. After we lost an OES-mix to undiagnosed kidney tumors, we decided to take a proactive approach to health rather than just waiting for symptoms to appear. 3 of the 5 with low thyroid are Old English Sheepdogs... two are from a BYB and one from a rescue. Interestingly, the only OES in my pack that doesn't have low thyroid is my blind, cleft palate, harelip sheepie that also came from a BYB... she was retested for low thyroid a few weeks ago. Only one of my dogs showed text book symptoms of weight gain, heat seeking, slowing down... it was my OES named Darby and her symptoms appeared at round 1 1/2 years of age which is pretty young. All of the others were picked up during this blood work we religiously have done on our pack once a year. The other OESs were diagnosed at around 2 and 3 1/2. I think annual testing helps us to make sure they're as healthy as they can possibly be even with the conditions they may have. Testing for hypothyroidism has not been terribly expensive. I'd recommend adding this one additional test to the annual blood work done on all breeding stock. According to Dr. Dodds, hypothyroidism can cause a lot of different problems but there are specific reproductive problems so it seems it would be an important test to at least consider before bringing two dogs together to procreate- Quote: Reproductive Disorders
infertility of either sex / lack of libido / testicular atrophy / hypospermia aspermia / prolonged interestrus interval / absence of heat cycles / silent heats / pseudopregnancy / weak, dying or stillborn pups But... it's just my opinion. All of mine are spayed and we don't breed. Though we have tossed around the idea of purchasing a well-bred OES for the past year... or maybe simply getting another pup that no one wants. (Completely different ends of the spectrum ) |
dairymaid wrote: I am very aprehensive about using a stud dog from America for a few reasons, you have a slightly different standard, in the states flashes as far as I believe flashes are allowed, not so in Europe, and lastly it is extreamly difficult getting information over the offspring from a stud dog.
I've wondered about the splash/flash issue. Yes, they are accepted here. And there seems to be some genetic drift in that direction -- it's getting harder, though certainly by no means impossible, to find a truly nicely pigmented dog. It seems to me that selecting against excessive white/white factor lends itself to better pigmented dogs overall and to me, better pigmentation appears to go with better health - certainly, but not exclusively when it comes to hearing; I suspect there may also be at least a loose correlation when it comes to allergies. Of course, having said that, my girls' breeder bought a wonderfully dark puppy bitch some years ago from another breeder thinking she might work well in her breeding program, but the little girl turned out to have allergies and was therefore spayed (ouch! there's that again ). Her sire (a prolific one at that, and the son of an even more prolific sire) was also wonderfully dark - he turned out to be hypothyroid. He also turned out to be a CA carrier. Not that there is any connection between the two, just that it's the kind of compounding effect that can make you very apprehensive about breeding - period. 
I think, in addition to the thyroid issue, that we also accept low level allergies too readily and write them off as something to be expected in the breed. At least in the US. I've always figured there must have been a reason for the change in the standard and wondered if it was health related and, if so, specifically what health issues the no-flash rule was intended to address. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: I'll end up doing this in spurts or I won't get any sleep
And, as usual, I end up "hi-jacking" a perfectly respectable topic by going off-topic - sorry about that.I'm enjoying it, please continue. |
| Just wanted to say this was a very good thread for a nubie to the OES world. Still searching for our first OES puppy and this site has been very help. The people have been very helpful and the search and research have all been very encouraging as we are on the look out.
This thread confirmed what is common in all areas of business. Price is determined by the cost of producing goods and then what the market will bear on top of that. In this case, vet and breeding fees plus profit. Thanks everyone. Gregg |
icthuse1 wrote: This thread confirmed what is common in all areas of business. Price is determined by the cost of producing goods and then what the market will bear on top of that. In this case, vet and breeding fees plus profit.
Thanks everyone. Gregg Hi, Gregg. While you're principally correct, in reality, only with a larger litter will you typically even break even. And that doesn't include the cost of finishing the parents' championships and so on. But that's fine, because most reputable breeders are breeding for themselves first and foremost. It's a hobby. They expect to be in the red. But this isn't their livelihood, so that's not their main concern. Now, with some of the higher pricing, that equation may change. But is there an element of what the market will bear? Absolutely. Kristine |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: Some breeders even have older dogs returned and will sell for a reduced price. Others have retired show dogs that people are willing to place in a good home for little or no fee. Great dogs but unlike most rescues or internet dogs, you know their pedigrees and health history.
I can agree 100% on that statement. Claiborne (who I currently have) and Martha (Chewie's sister who I am getting when she finishes in the breed ring) are both finished breed ring dogs. They were the best option for us because of our growing family (human-wise). It would have been impractical to have a puppy and newborn all at once 
Claiborne needed an experienced dog home and Martha will just need structure! I am so excited for my mature dogs. Who needs a puppy, I've done the puppy thing before. |
| I want to start off saying that I am not a breeder. However, I do have a degree in biology, and some background in genetics although not specifically in canine genetics.
What does concern me about the hard line reputable breeders take about showing dogs before breeding them is that it seems to me that this limitation of the genetic pool of acceptable breeding animals is that eventually, weaknesses that are not apparent now or in the past will inevitably begin to show in individuals, limiting the breeding pool even further. This is not partiuclar to dogs or to OES, but to any living organism: diversity in the genetic pool adds strength and resilience. Please do not misunderstand: I absolutely believe that dogs with known genetic disease or disorders should not be bred. I believe that any reputable breeder should do any appropriate testing of all breeding animals and know the health background of the lines from which their animals are bred to the extent possible. I think it would be wise for breeders to discuss this possibility and to find ways to encourage the introduction of fresh bloodlines into the general world of reputable breeders. I don't mean to imply that this is a problem now, although more than on person has mentioned dogs coming from excellent lines with medical issues that removed them from the breeding program. Certainly some of this is that we have changed the way we look at things, and also more tests are available and more widely available. But at some point, it will be a problem and certain diseases and disorders will become closely associated with the OES breed. |
tgir wrote: I think it would be wise for breeders to discuss this possibility and to find ways to encourage the introduction of fresh bloodlines into the general world of reputable breeders.
What you write is so on target, but the time is NOW. The problems are here NOW. And there are no genuinely fresh bloodlines within the breed. What should we do? Go to the backyard breeders and use their often generations of untested dogs that in any case go back to the very same dogs (follow some BYB pedigrees back, it gets very interesting - this breed is not old and the founders are few, plus throw in some genetic bottlenecks here and there), except that they are from the parts of those litters which the reputable breeders had already decided should not be bred for health or structural or temperament question marks to begin with...? Yeah - believe me, I know. Tough one. We have to go forward with what we have - only smarter. As for genetic diversity, we can start by not breeding generations of dogs to the same 5-10 at any given time popular stud dogs
I don't mean to suggest that we're at the point of no return, healthwise. But we've had some real wake-up calls and we need to pay close attention to what we're doing and be thinking at least 3-5 generations down the line. Your points are well taken (and eloquently written ) though.
Kristine |
| Hi tgir and Kristin, We are now going deep, yes we have problems although none of the reputable breeders want to accept the fact, when you visit shows you see the same dogs winning again and again, it has gotton to a stage you do not know whether to trust a judge or not. Young people who buy a nice puppy go to shows receive moderate success and leave again shortly after. When you see their dog a couple of years later all you can do is astound at such a lovely speciman of an OES which you cannot use because the dog is no longer tested or registered in any club and the owners no longer have interest in showing, so we are closing ourselves in by not accepting the competition and with judges who are very political or do not know the breed enough to judge it properly, people follow each other to the same stud dogs as though they were the last ones left just because of a kennel name and if you dare think of an unknown affix you are crazy, dogs shows are importent for breeders although the things I have seen in the past year make me think some people are trying to obliterate this wonderful breed of dog. Unfortunately there are plenty of people think like myself but they are just to scared to speak outloud. Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo |
Quote: As far as a contract is concerned, yes all breeders have a contract differing in one way or the other, I do not agree that a breeder has the right to demand that a puppy be speyed or neutered, a breeder who demands this is hiding something in my opinion, neither do they have the right to determine if a puppy is shown or not, of coarse if the puppy is not show quality it is not in their interest to see it being shown but you cannot forbid this.
Let me jump in here too, as I have lived in Holland and Germany, also bred litters in each country and showed all over, in MY days , nobody used contracts, it is a matter of trust, that is what I learned to do here in the US but I never force people to spay or neuter unless there are issues, that dogs and bitches should not be bred.There are breeders thinking that every puppy they whelp is show quality, wonder why, just to get more champions to their name, and this sometimes backfires. I often hold back puppies as I would like to have them shown and if I don't find a suitable showhome than they are staying. Every breeder needs people to show their dogs because you cannot keep them all, the house would get too full too quick and your kennel dies for lacking of room, right Zack? Dairymaid you were saying that there are not enough good studdogs in Europe??? I don't agree, there are many very nice dogs overthere, as I have found, judging in Germany and Holland and recently in Russia, I have seen very nice dogs sired by a variety of dogs. |
| Lols Edy, Yep, very True! |
bizboots wrote: Dairymaid you were saying that there are not enough good studdogs in Europe??? I don't agree, there are many very nice dogs overthere, as I have found, judging in Germany and Holland and recently in Russia, I have seen very nice dogs sired by a variety of dogs.
You seem to have mis-understood my meaning; I am the same opinion as yourself, we have plenty of excellent dogs in Europe but very few are used because of one thing or another, I ask myself often why certain dogs are ingnored and have no answer to this question. Furthermore my concern is we see new owners coming to shows and being disappointed because their dog/bitch did not win, they receive a wonderful critique that would make a BOB owner proud but no explanation as to why their much loved sheepie was not placed first. These new show people become irritated and lose interest in showing, hence a possible good breed dog/bitch is lost in the pool of breeding stock available. Very little help is offered especially if you have a dog from another country and a lot of back stabbing is commen today. If you pick a stud dog that does not come from a reputable breeder you will be cruzified by these breeders. I have shown my bitch and together with a Danish friend made her up to be a Multi-champion, although she is from a top breeder in Europe I feel proud that we have achieved this without her help, you will no doubt see that I have used a Stud dog that has been used many times, the reason for this is I like this type of dog and I am trying to better the small faults my bitch has. I know that I will not improve the breed but I would like to try and breed healthy OES's to the best of my ability. Edy thanks for the comments you have made and your opinion is very welcome, I hope one day to have the honour of showing under you. Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo |
Quote: You seem to have mis-understood my meaning; I am the same opinion as yourself, we have plenty of excellent dogs in Europe but very few are used because of one thing or another, I ask myself often why certain dogs are ingnored and have no answer to this question. Furthermore my concern is we see new owners coming to shows and being disappointed because their dog/bitch did not win, they receive a wonderful critique that would make a BOB owner proud but no explanation as to why their much loved sheepie was not placed first.
I once ,when I was a newbie/novice, wanted to breed my bitch to a dog but never did as I did not like the owner, how foolish was I, I bred to his son, what for me was 2nd choice but worked out real well in the end. Those things never happened again, I think if you want to breed to a certain dog you should ,no matter what anybody tells you or if you like the owner or not, is totally irrelevant. The big problem is that many breeders are not educated in what to breed to what and this way creating a very small genepool, which can have devestating effects in the end. Many are runninng to that new import or the one that wins most, but might not fit the pedigree and genotype of the bitch and it is also up to studdog owners to refuse certain breedings because the pair does not suit. Breeders who sell their dogs and those dogs are being shown by new people, should assist their owners in any way or form and make sure they do not quit, that is what we do here( I am running after 6 novices to make sure they get it right and calm them down when they do not win) It also could be a handler /grooming issue which I myself don't care about when I wear my judges hat. Conformation, movement and coat structure is of most importance As for judges , well they do write critiques and I am sure if you have questions, the judge is normally willing to explain . Those new people can tell a judge that they are new and want to learn. Also the breeder of the dog can explain why the dog did not win. You need to devellop a tough skin at dogshows and consider it as a day out with your beloved pet. BTW I know where Your dog comes from |
| Hi Edy, I hope you are not offended if I call you that, I agree with every word you have written and I would love to see this practiced here in Germany, I remember when I started to show my first dog some judges used to make statement at the end of the class regarding the placed dogs. This did not go down well with everybody but as I have nithing to hide it never bothered me, unfortunately this takes place seldom today. The grooming and handling is a problem and I know someone who stopped showing because a judge wrote quote "the handling of this dog was disgraceful, and the owner should learn to brush it properly" unquote. I have never breed but the stud dog I have chosen I think passes to my bitch, from the breed lines and structure. BTW it does not suprise me one little bit that you know where my bitch comes from, I am very proud of her she has done really well gained more than I could ever have hoped for, now we are hoping we have nice puppies. Best regards Stewart Ayre |
| I hope you are not offended if I call you that Quote: Stewart I am not offended, there is nothing you wrote to offend anyone |
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