Advice on Caring for a Dog with over 50 bites
So here's the story - We were going on vacation tomorrow (which is today now). My dog has gone to boarders that do playtime during the day with the other dogs visiting. This is very popular now in Portland and Eugene, oregon now. Anyway, he's done this before - no issues. I dropped him off this morning to get him tired out for the night. He had a few trial visits to get him warmed up to the other dogs before we went today - everything was great. So 3 hours after he was there - I get a call. I guess he was being playful (he's boisterous and only a little over a year old) with another dog that didn't want to reciprocate. So Jasper got nipped and ran away yelping. Wrong thing to do in the company of 13 other dogs. The other dogs were all super nice and balanced, but I guess there is some instinct all dogs have, no matter how tame, to attack any dog who runs away yelping. There was one employee (don't know when exactly he showed up - they are supposed to be under constant supervision). The owner was out so he didn't not witness. So what happened is obvious - he was attacked by the majority of them on his back. He has over 50 deep puncture wounds and multiple deep lacerations. His ears were shredded. He was covered in blood from head to toe. They got him EVERYWhere top, bottom, nose, neck, legs, eyes, belly. They emergency vet place shaved him down and found more and more. HE's been there 12 hours and they still did not do stitches as his blood pressure kept going down. They want to stabilize him before they do the stitches. They said they are superficial enough to wait. Right now he's sort of in shock. So - my dilemma is - has anyone ever had a dog get attacked like this of any variety and has it effected the pups long term personality? Also has anyone cared for a dog with wounds like this. I am so grateful to be a grad student right now (as much as I complain about it). I don't go back to my part-time job and school untill Jan. 7th so I'm going to be sleeping next to him every second of the night and be with him every second of the day. He has been the absolute love of my life. Also, not sure this is appropriate to mention, but has anyone had dealings with this sort of thing legally. So far, it's all been nice discussions between me and the owner. His employee who was very young and part-time with no health insurance tried to break up the fight and broke his fist and got multiple bites and stitches. So that is the card they are playing (jasper got into a fight, his employee got hurt, it's my fault so-to-speak). Also 3 or 4 other dogs were bit too but in a super minor way. They did not say who bit him though. No ideas, no witnesses except for the boy himself. But anyway, I'm concerned he is not going to want to pay any of the vet bill or else threaten for the boy to sue me since Jasper was involved. We're well over the $2K mark now...and climbing if he needs another day. I don't care how much it costs as long as he makes it, but I just wonder about liabilities and ethics in this situation. I'm never one to point fingers, I just don't want anyone else to go through what me and my dog did and that usually means having him take responsibility for what happened even in part. Obviously if this is a costly mistake for him, he will try to change the way he deals with fights among the dogs. Having some kid run in and punch and pull the dogs apart does not seem like he most professional way to deal with things. I talked to a friend of the family who is an attorney - he says just to simply send the bill to the boarder, don't threaten or be emotional. Give him this chance to respond. I think that's wise. He's a new boarder in town too, but he had excellent references and the facility looks and seemed to function in an awesome way. I met the dogs, got the whole tour, witnessed Jasper playing peacefully. Anyway, this is the guys livelihood and I don't like ruining people's reputation. Thanks for any kind of advice. Sorry this got so long. I have no one to talk to at this hour. |
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| Poor Jasper.....I am so sorry that Jasper got attacked! I am no attorney and it sounds like you did get some great legal advice.
When you signed Jasper up for this day care did you have to sign any aggreement about "in the event your dog is involved in a "fight"" what is the procedure? I don't have any legal advice for you..just one "mom" to another..I would be so worried about my baby...... Is this place an actual day care or is it someone's home...If it is an actual company...............I would think that they would have workmens comp insurance coverage for all their employees in case of injury on the job. Also, I would think that they would have property insurance coverage for just this purpose. I am surprised the owner did not immediately contact his insurance company and put in an accident report claim. Good Luck...sheepie hugs and healing thoughts for Jasper...Please keep us posted..... |
OMG 
I am so sorry. The attorney's advice makes a lot of sense... I'd follow it. Just a personal observation from someone with 6 dogs... though I am in NO way a dog professional, I believe this is an example of pack behavior. One dog can set a pack off... sometimes just by a sound... sometimes by motion or commotion. I think many of us with multiple dogs have seen it happen. It's happened in my pack and there is an order in which dogs are removed from the situation all the while commanding the others to stay "leave it" and stay back. Thank goodness it seldom happens now. 
Quote: Wrong thing to do in the company of 13 other dogs.
Only one person was supervising this many dogs? Though hindsight is said to be 20/20, and again this is just my opinion, but it appears there was inadequate supervision if a dog has been bitten 50 times. In all fairness though, fights/attacks happen quickly and 12 dogs can do a lot of damage. You get 13 dogs together away from home, they don't have nor respect a pack leader and you're going to have problems. When you're dealing with a pack of dogs that only comes together occasionally, it's probably accurate to say that the human(s) present are not looked to as the leader or boss by most of them. It seems it would have been wise to have at least two humans supervising this number of dogs (that have been properly trained how to break up dog fights). Allow your boy to heal... it was a terrifying experience. You might consider bringing in a professional dog behaviorist to help him heal emotionally. Just a thought but it seems a dog would be fearful of other dogs after such a severe attack and fearful dogs will rely on an inherent fight/flight response. So he may avoid other dogs by trying to get away from them and avoiding all contact or he may decide to fight rather than wait to see what the other dog is going to do. You might try to match him with one dog proven to be mellow on a one-on-one basis to start. Eventually, maybe another can be added but the idea is to build on positive experiences and help him get past this. It seems a good behaviorist would know the right approach. Please keep us posted on how he's doing. Hopefully this awful incident will eventually fade from his memory. Hugs to you both. |
| Oh holy cow. I am so sorry! Poor Jasper!
I don't know what to tell you as far as long-term effects. I'll be interested to hear what the vet says and how he copes. From the legal perspective, I agree you have good advice so far. Were there cameras in the area? I wonder how they were able to tell you the details of the nip and yelping if the PT employee wasn't right there at the time? If there is video, I'd say you need to get your hands on that now and go from there. While it's definitely pack behavior, the facility was understaffed and therefore unable to control the environment. Video and a copy of the release you signed...those are going to be key. But for now - get everything that has transpired in conversations with the owner and anybody else involved written down so you don't forget one thing. Please keep us posted. My thoughts and prayers are with you and Jasper. |
| Oh how terrible, terrible, terrible.
My sympathies to you and to Jasper. 
HEAL Jasper! HEAL! |
| Oh I'm sooo sorry. I know sheepies are woosies especially with more dominate dogs, so I'm not surprised this happened.
1. Sit down and begin recording everything you remember hearing or saying. 2. Contact an attorney. It may seem extreme, but they can guide you through the legal hurdles you will be facing. I'm guessing either the day care will try to get out of paying or try to pay you off early. Don't!!! There can be lasting damages to Jasper such as neurological damage. Even if you signed something that says "we are not responsible for injuries to your dog....." baloney! A good attorney will blow that right out of the water. It's just a fake screen to scare off timid folks. 3. Plus you will most definately need professional dog counsel. Why does the name Cesar Milan come into mind? It may be worth at least contacting his company.....they may take a special interest in a mauling case like this. If not, ask locally, your vet for example, of dog behaviorists who can begin working with Jasper ASAP. Yes, dogs mauled in this way suffer severe psychological damage. Emphasis on severe! Both of you now need behavior enforcement. 4. Finally the medical. One bite or two heal well by draining. Rarely stitches are needed. This many you will see infection and quite a bit of pain. You'll be putting compresses on him, keeping him on antiobiotics for awhile to keep infection at bay. As said above, this many wounds, surely something important got nipped, you may see a permanent limp or pain. Right now you want to mother him, but as he improves, you need to be pack leader again encouraging his self confidence to redevelop. |
| I am so sorry this happened to Jasper. I hope he stabilizes today and can start to heal.
I only have a much milder dog attack example for you - in regard to Jasper and other dogs in the future. I had Chewie at a weight pull last month, held in conjunction with races - bikejoring, carts, scooters and canicross. The first night there I met a fellow dog trainer who was competing with her 2 dogs in the races. Chewie really liked her female bulldog and they played for awhile. The next day, her bulldog was attacked from the rear during her race by another dog. She and her dog both crashed and rolled, her dog was bit up and had her ear lacerated. She found me at the weight pull and explained what had happened, and asked if I would bring Chewie over to see her dog, seeing they had liked each other so much. Chewie sniffed her over and was very gentle - and her dog was nervous at first - acted afraid of him approaching. Then she settled down and became relaxed. Her dog was OK after that, and was able to run the next day. I feel that the quick acting by the bulldog's owner to get her "back in the saddle" with a dog who was safe was a very good thing. It sounds like Jasper's injuries are going to prevent this from happening for you in a timely fashion, but I think something similar would be good. Please keep us posted on his progress. |
| What a nightmare!! I sure hope Jasper heals quickly. I look forward to hearing how this plays out. |
| OMG! I don't have anything to say except that we are thinking of you. |
| I am so sorry this has happened to Jasper. Positive prayers and thoughts going his way. Plz keep us updated with his progress. |
| Just want to say how sorry to hear what happened, thinking of you and jasper and please do keep us all updated on how he is going.
I hope the bites clear up well, just keep a close eye on them as they heal to make sure no infection happens as they are healing. Compresses for swollen really sore areas to help soothe and take the pain/swelling down, I am sure the vet will be loading you up with plenty of anti-biotics when he comes home. Don't wash him till the bites have scabbed up and fallen off. When you do later use a soothing medicated shampoo to help the bite areas. Do seek legal advice for what has happened. I am so sorry for you both, just terrible We will be thinking of you both. |
| Wow, that is terrible. I am so sorry that happened to Jasper.
Did you sign a release form releasing them from liability if anything were to happen? If not, you have every right to go after them for Vet bills. Will Jasper be staying at the Vet while you are on vacation? Hope he heals quickly!!! |
| OMG. All I can do is cry for Jasper. Poor Baby..... Hope he recovers completely and is himself soon. |
| Thanks everyone for the support, even just a prayer. I have contacted an attorney.
My worst fear now is his health and what I do when I get home. He is a weeping mess right now. All bright red blood and it seeps when he walks. It's horrific. He walked with me today - he's so sore though. He's on Fentanyl which is stronger than morphine and he still wimpers in pain when he lays down. When I brought him back into the vet office he wanted to go right back into his kennel. He's a funny pup in that he's always loved going to the vet to see all the pretty ladies and to get cookies. He's still got that in him and wanted to go right back into his polar fleece chamber with warm bottles. They said he's been super tolerant of everything. They plan to wean him off the IV and try to feed him tonight. As for the boarding place, they now changed their story to Jasper being the one that bit the employee when the employee tried to drag Jasper out from under all the dogs biting him. He has a broken hand and bites that required stitches to his 3 fingers (I think I mentioned that already). So no use of two hands. The story gets bigger every time it's told. Still no offer of help with the vet bill which I'm sure will be sky high by tomorrow morning. And no guaranty Jasper will make it. He's just now stabilizing with his blood pressure. They are not stitching up anything on him and he has in some places 2 inch gashes and open ripped wounds. I do not know how I am going to get through this mentally. My heart goes into my throat every time I see him. I've never had a dog get so much as a wasp sting so this is beyond comprehension. I will feel truly blessed if he makes it. I'm posting pics on my photo album account (don't look if you have a weak stomach). My purpose in posting pics - please think twice before you take your dog to a 'pack' oriented facility and please think twice about letting your dog socialize with pitbulls (they had a few in daycare there). I don't know anything about pits, but I sure do now. I'm sorry if this offends anyone. The ones I met were super sweet, calm, mature, but things can trigger them and the owner of the facility said one was one of the main attackers in the incident. Again thanks for all advice - I agree this probably happened quick. Hug your sheepies for me. Jane |
| We just pray Jasper is going to pull through all this
Of course the story will keep changing they don't want to admit liability.  The employee that got bitten any wonder, pulling a pack of dogs apart that are ripping into another in a frenzy is always dangerous and you do get mauled. If the employee was at all dog savy he would of known that danger and who really knows in a pack attack which dog bit him while the frenzied attack was happening, of course they will blame Jasper as there is a possibility that they have to pay compensation for what happened so pin the blame on Jasper they will try to do for the bite the employee received . Sounds like very inexperienced people running that facility. Pit bulls are so unpredictable in there behaviour, there a banned breed in Australia now due to unprovocked attacks on other dogs and people.
Jasper you can do it, get well and back home to your family. Prayers are happening big time for you sweetie  |
| The owner also admits to the employee trying to break up the fight by punching the dogs, this is how the broken hand happened. Interesting. |
OMG, my heart goes out to poor Jasper!!  And to Mom, of course.
I'm glad to hear you've contacted an attorney. It sounds like the boarding place will fight any responsibility.  I feel very badly for the kid that got bit and broke his hand, but as was stated previously, if he had known what he was doing, he wouldn't have tried to get in the middle of a pack of dogs fighting - a sure recipe for disaster.
I'll keep Jasper in my prayers that he continues to heal, both physically and mentally. |
| My heart goes out to you and Jasper. This is just an awful thing to have happened--- just awful. You are in our prayers.
Lori |
| Hmmm, Jasper bit the employee? Next thing you know they'll be saying that Jasper also bit himself. I think the owner is trying to protect some other dogs at this point - depending on your local laws, the dog that bit his employee could be put to sleep.
You and Jasper are in my prayers! I hope he gets well soon. |
| I've just had a look at the photos of Jasper at the vets and I can't stop crying for you and Jasper.
So horrific, that would just arm me for going after the boarding facility big time with legal help, I would not give a stuff if it meant they loose their business, it just should not of happened in the first place, they did not give jasper a duty of care when he was in their care
My heart is breaking for you both, just should of never happened in the first place while in the care of the facility. 
Jasper my heart is aching & breaking for you |
| Hugs and Prayers to you and jasper from me and my gang.
I hope the owner of the doggie day care takes full responcibility for both jasper and the employee that got bit. All it would take to get negative publicity to end his business. |
| I was thinking about him deeply tonight. I was going to suffice with a call for an update, but couldn't take it. When I called, they luckily needed me to walk him. He won't urinate for anyone else.
I took so much for granted until I saw my lovable, boisterous, fluffball in such pain. I totally personify him, I know I'm a nutball, telling him I love him everyday. I took all those crazy things for granted - stealing from the counter, chewing a shoe, bouncing off the couch, licking any stranger like he's in love - you get overwhelmed at what clowns they can be at just over a year old ( and at times impatient when they think they are toy poodles but are 80 lb. wooly mammoths flying into the walls, furniture, children, LOL). But tonight I felt like the luckiest person alive to see my dog pee without having to sit down, to sit up without falling onto the blankets in exhaustion and to see him try to lick his lips and do a 'rolling' shake (like after a bath). He is only a teeny bit better, but he's coming back. He still will not eat though although he's getting IV nutrition. I'm very very doubtful he's coming home tomorrow as they said. He's still in so much horrid pain. I can't blame him. All I can do is thank god he's progressing even if slowly. I just looked at my own pics and then popped up his "healthy" pics...what a day and night difference..It will be the happiest day of my life when I can post a handsome healthy pic of him.....Well, thanks again for the prayers and support. I was worried about a 'report' of a dog attack towards my dog so I also called animal control. Ironically, despite the horrid bites to his employee, no reports were made of any kind which leaves more ???'s in my mind about what happened. And yes, that could be next "he injured himself" - never thought of that one. Jane |
| OMG Jane, I just looked at the pics of your poor Jasper...I am speechless. Your poor boy. I am so glad that you went to the Vet's and saw him and walked him. We parents never feel good until we can lay our own eyes on our babies to see their progress for ourselves. I am happy to hear that he was able to get up and walk out to do his business. Thank you so much for the update. to Jasper and You. We're pulling for you Jasper...get better soon. |
| We hope that Jasper heals soon and gets over this with no after effects, with so many dogs there should have been more and especially experienced supervision, I can't understand why he tried pulling Jasper out from under the other dogs this was foolish. Get good legal advice and forget about the persons business or reputation after this I would not recommend them to anyone. Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo |
| Those pictures just made me cry. I am at work tonight, and I am working with another nurse who loves sheepdogs too (she had one growing up). We both were so devastated by what happened to Jasper. The pictures are worse than I thought - he really did get ripped up. Ashley and I both hope he feels better soon. We both work again tonight, so we will check in to see how he (and you) are doing.
hugs to you and Jasper |
| I was just thinking what kind of care center this is and what they have for employees, I think anyone doing this work should know not to punch a dog who is involved in an attack as this will ónly make the dog even more aggressive. When a group of dogs play together they need to be supervised all the time and intervention is necessary by the least sign of trouble, this was not the case here.
Get well soon Jasper |
| Oh Jane.... I just looked at the pictures. My heart is breaking for you and your sweet Jasper.
There are so many angles and questions about this attack. Like everyone else, I agree that good legal advice is the best way to handle it. How could someone leave 1 person to supervise so many dogs??? When you leave your animal in the care of a place like this, they have a responsibilty to make sure the animals are safe and watched after. Do the owners of the other dogs know their animals were involved in such a horrific attack??? Were there bites beyond poor Jasper and the boy that was "in charge". The owner should have notified Animal Control immediatly. I am suprised the Vet didn't do that when Jasper was brought into the emergency facility. At the end of the day, all we want is for poor Jasper to be well. Here are lots of hugs for both of you!
Lori |
| You and Jasper are in my prayers too, Jane. |
| I was just going to post to take lots of pictures of the damage done to Jasper but I see you have some. If your camera allows for videos, please record his suffering. You don't know where this situation is going to take you.
Quote: As for the boarding place, they now changed their story to Jasper being the one that bit the employee when the employee tried to drag Jasper out from under all the dogs biting him.
When there's a dog fight and someone goes in to break it up, dogs will bite what ever is going after them... they don't know the intentions or often times even WHO is coming into contact. So even IF Jasper did indeed bite this person, he was fighting for his life. It's a bunch of BS if they think he is at fault for the employees wounds... they're trying to place blame away from themselves and have most likely talked with an attorney already. Keep good notes along with dates. Personally, I'd gather up several cotton sheets and wash them in bleach, soap and hot water. Use them as a barrier where ever Jasper lies down and change them several times a day. Kind of like a big bandage. You can get hospital-type absorbent pads to place under the sheets to protect any bedding. It breaks my heart to hear about and see his condition Gentle hugs to your boy. |
| Oh, Jane. I don't know what to say......
When we used to go to dog parks and scuffles would happen between dogs I would always keep my Bosley away from them, as he would want to run right over and get involved. The pack mentality that kicks in is very strong, and scares me so much....Now evern more as I imagine my sweet boy in Jasper's place... That is a horrendous beating that he has taken....Very hard to look at pictures, much less you and Jasper having to deal with that in real life.
I would suggest you start to stock-pile some large T-shirts, and some light shirts with long sleeves, also, like pyjama tops, so he can wear them when he gets home. The healing scabs will be itchy and he may want to scratch. Your poor sweet boy needs extra loving and kisses to help get him through this....Come on Jasper, we are all pulling for you!!!!!!! Hugs to you and your family, Jane... |
| I had to take a deep breath to open the pictures...they're horrid. My heart just aches for Jasper.
Do not worry about the kid's medical bills - that is Worker's Comp and not your responsibility in the least. You won't be involved in that at all. Also, the owner has to have liability insurance and this should be filed as a claim on that. It was 100% their responsibility to keep the dogs in a control-able environment and he (as the owner) did not by making one kid who was clearly not trained or even capable of controlling a situation in charge. In the end, it really should just cost the owner his deductible and it's over, unless you sue for additional damages (which I would leave open as an option for now). Hang in there. I know you must be exhausted. Please keep the updates coming. |
| OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a terrible terrible thing to happen. I am so sorry and am sending lots of healing energy your way. I hope Jasper has a fast (well as fast as it can be) recovery.
I started to cry the moment I saw your pictures. In fact I saw the pictures while posting a picture of my own and had to come looking for this post. I have no idea what the legalities of this are but, it this is a commercial boarding facility they MUST have some kind of liability insurance. When accepting the care of your dog for money they are accepting liability for what ever happens. This sort of thing is most certainly in their control. WHO would leave that many dogs without constant supervision. OF COURSE your dog bit the worker, she was terrified and being attacked. I agree with sending the bill to the owner of the business and waiting to see what happens. If you run into a problem get an attorney. Thank you for posting this. My boarding faciolity also has a day care program and a playroom where the dogs play together. I believe they seperate big and little dogs and know that it is closely supervised. But I am going to ask next time we go what their understanding of their liability is and MAKE sure they animals are never left unattended. I'm thinking about the video cam of the place that Val leaves Maggie and Chumly. There are ALWAYS numberous people in the play area. I don't think I have ever seen it unattended. Best wishes. |
| I was afraid to look..and it was well warranted. Poor baby. Knowing sheepies like we do, they are not fighters but lovers. I wouldn't even be talking to the daycare facility. Just hire a lawyer and do whatever they say. At minimum you should get your medical back. I don't think they will give you pain and suffering for your baby...dogs are still property in most states. I have my name on a class action suit because of the dog food poisoning my dog in March, so I know how the law looks at them.
There is no reason you should be blamed for the bites the employee suffered either. How can anyone say whose dog bit them in the middle of that? Even if they could, your dog was being attacked, and not aware of anyone trying to help, only trying to defend himself. We are praying for your baby's recovery...Sheepie hugs from Bella and Nigel. |
| I haven't looked at the pictures and still am totally shaken by your story. Please know you are in all out thoughts for a best case recovery.
I would also suggest that you research what laws and accredidations apply to the facility. if they have an accredidation or are applying for one there should be rules about the number of employees to dogs - as a grad student I am sure you know how to find out what you need. you can provide anything pertinent to the attorney and keep your bill there down. I am sure having 14 dogs and one human can't be within any ones guidelines. Best wishes - also make sure you see to your own health right now this is such a stressful situation. |
| It seems totally unreasonable that only 1 employee was supervising that many animals. Even if you signed a waiver, that does not allow them to be negligent.
Poor Jasper, I couldn't look at the photos, I hope he gets better soon |
| I haven't posted here in a long time but when I saw your post I want to express my sincere and heartfelt sympathy for you and for poor Jasper. I did look at you pics and I wish I had not. I am sending him all the healing vibs and energy that I can muster up. And also sending you all the strength you need to get through this ordeal. I think Tasker's Mom is correct in her post. As an former owner of a dog day care it was my responsibility to make sure that all my canine guest were safe and that all of my employees were safe. I would breakdown the dogs into groups depending on their likes and dislikes and at no time was any group to be left unattended no matter for what reason. I always had two people monitoring each group and the facility was the size so that if their was a problem in one group there would be others to help out. Even though my acceptance policy was strict, I did see at times where certain dogs just disliked others for whatever reason and became hostile to another. I do not even let my own dogs, 4 in total, alone at home without my supervision. If the daycare does not step up to the plate and take care of your medical expenses they are foolish. As a business owner I would never want this to be known because as you can well imagine it is very very very bad for business. I also had liability insurance to cover me in the event anything happened. I also would go with the advice of your lawyer, but if the daycare who was negilent does not step up to the plate I would contact newspapers, tv stations anyone to get the story out. NO DOG OR OWNER SHOULD EVER HAVE TO SUFFER SUCH HEARTACHE AND NO RESPECTABLE BUSINESS WOULD EVER ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN. In this scenario if I was the business owner I would be quite receptive to your wishes and needs as well as Jasper's and I would start reviewing my whole facility policy and procedures and questioning Do I really know what I am doing? Should I really be in this business? Please give Jasper an extra hug from myself and my canine crew. We are routing for his speedy recovery both physically and mentally. Take good care. Jack |
| I have looked at the pictures 3 times now and each time I burst out in tears, and I feel his fear and dread in my heart. Poooooor Jasper. |
| Where do I start? OMG the photos of his injuries were horrific and I can see how the mother bear instinct kicked in for you viewing poor Jasper. I'm shocked at the kennels response to you and from your description it appears as if they are trying to place the blame on you. No doubt as the liabilities involved and their responsiblity is at question.
A few years ago, I was steward of the offleash park in my city, no pay, just a regular visitor there and I would tell all the newcomers of the rules and regulations. One time one of my neighbors tried to break up a fight and had his thumb and hand badly damaged from doing so. Even the animal control officers wouldn't press charges against the other dogs owner (he owned the other) and NO ONE should ever try to break up a fight by charging in between fighting dogs. A blast of water from a fireman type hose may have worked. Follow the advice from your lawyer and I know exactly what you mean when you say you don't want to cause problems and feel badly about stirring up trouble. I had to remind myself of that recently, when I got hit twice within a short period of time by other drivers. Sorta the same thing I didn't pursue it the first time , but the second time , I realized the pain I had gone through and sought legal advice. I realized that the people involved had hoped I would just go away and forget about it as they did but in the meantime I was the one that had to deal with the pain of recovering. It's the same thing with Jasper..your lawyer was correct..no emotions involved but they need to do the right thing. In some ways even with signing an agreement that they are not going to be held liable if the dog is injured may not hold up in court. As with insurance companies regarding car accidents it's to my knowlege the same as using undue care and attention when driving. Reasonable precautions must have been in place for them to be found not liable, and this is not one or two bites we are talking about..but 50! That is totally unacceptable and care and caution were not in place for that many to have happened. The fact the employee was injured even if the bite was caused by Jasper (probably not) but if that's what they are claiming , it is the employees fault (although I understand his panic) for rushing amongst fighting dogs. The doggie place is no doubt in jeopardy regarding their insurance and their liability so of course they are going to deny any fault. Should you feel quilty..NO! Just one look at the pain and agony that yourself and Jasper are going through is enough to tell you - you are doing the right thing. When you return to school in January you will probably have Jasper still at the vets or may need a sitter to come and spend the day with him - this too should be included in your cost. Be strong and fight for your boy..he deserves it. I'm sending lots of positive thoughts to you both and please keep us posted. You have the power of all of us behind you on this forum. Marianne |
| I could barely see the photos of Jaspers injurys thru the tears. We are sooo sorry he has had to endure this. Stay Strong Mom, he will need you. I'm sure your tlc will help him get thru the pain. We will continue to pray for him and you. Keep us informed. |
| I'm so sorry about what happened to poor Jasper. He will need your love and gentle touch now more than ever to help him through this. Please know we are all sending you and Jasper tons of prayers, strength and healing thoughts!!
tdelanoit |
| I also had to brace myself to look at the pictures of your poor baby...horrible...horrendous.. I am typing through tears..remembering the look of pain in Jasper's eyes...
how dare they-----how dare the owner of that (so called) "daycare' try to put the blame on Jasper...or you!!!! For the sake of all dog owners I hope you get a good attorney and sue everyone concerned.... The daycare has a responsiblity to make sure ALL the dogs in their care are supervised... and not with just one parttime highschool boy-----This is a case of gross negligence on the part of that owner...He was trying to save some money ---- Jane---I know you can feel all of our love, concern and anger at what happened to Jasper.... Sheepie hugs, kisses...and love to him....... PLEASE keep us posted--- |
| I keep reading this post, and looking at the pictures, and I cannot find anything to say, but I am so sorry. I can't imagine having to see my little guy go through the pain and suffering that Jasper is going through. Jasper is so lucky to have such a wonderful, loving, and caring mom. Good luck and speedy recovery to Jasper. My thoughts and prayers are with you. |
Quote: This is a case of gross negligence on the part of that owner...He was trying to save some money ----
I agree 100%!!!!! |
| ...and didn't have properly trained people in place to stop the fight before it became a fight, or at least before it became a mob fight.
But I'm more worried about Jasper right now. |
| i too like everyone here crys when we look at the pics.. sending you good vibes for you and your boy.. |
| I am like everyone else, in tears while looking at the pics of poor Jasper. To me this is no different than if your child was unsupervised at daycare and was severly injured due to neglect. I feel so bad for you and Jasper. I too hope for a speedy recovery. |
| I just wanted to add my prayers and sympathy to this post
You have a lot of self control...I think that if one of my pups looked like Jasper does right now, the owner of that facility would be taking their OWN horrific injury photos to a lawyer!  |
| I can only echo what everyone else has said already. Poor dear Jasper. It is horrific, outrageous and heartbreaking. I cannot imagine how the place let the situation get so clearly out of control. Please believe that your sweetie will recover from this physically and emotionally. Dogs are amazingly resilient but it will surely take lots of love and patience. I just cannot imagine your fear and sadness. Much much sympathy. . . |
| I'm speechless. Gentle hugs and quick recovery for Jasper. |
| I too opened the pictures......tears! The poor baby! Hugs and prayers to all of you! |
| I haven't looked at the pictures and probably won't. I don't think I could bear it right now.
As was mentioned before, if (and that's a big if) Jasper did bite the employee, it could hardly have been his fault--he was fighting for his life, literally. Secondly, the employee does not seem to have been adequately trained, but I'm not sure what adequate training is to break up a 13 dog fight. Having more staff on hand, and breaking the dogs down into smaller groups of course seems like a good place to start. Water hose was my first thought, but perhaps one wasn't available. But physically stepping into a dog fight, no matter the dogs involved, is an automatic invitation to serious multiple dog bites. Do as your attorney friend advised: send the bill without any fan fare. But do consult a professional attorney. Unless Jasper has a record of biting other people or animals, I think you have a very clear case where the facility should take care of all of Jasper's medical bills resulting from this attack, now and later down the road, if more come. I would also talk with the vet and consult a behaviorist as soon as possible. A therapy dog for Jasper sounds like an excellent idea. Hugs to you both. |
| There are no words that can adequately describe what I'm feeling after seeing those pictures. That poor, sweet baby boy.
Jane, my heart goes out to you. I know you will do everything humanly possible for Jasper and you will need all your strength to get you through this. We are ALL here for you, whenever you need us. Keep the faith - justice will prevail. |
| OMG....I have never seen or heard anything like this in my life.
Poor baby Jasper....and you. This is horrible. I really hope he is getting better soon and I am glad they tell you that he is tolerant to all this at the vet. It makes me mad and sad that the proffesional daycare can let a one year old dog run with 13 others.
I really do not understand this.? They have been irresponsible and should pay for the damage on your dog. Kisses and hugs from us. He is already in our prayers! |
| Also wanted to say how sorry I am to hear about what happened to Jasper. I agree with everyone else, that it sure seems to me that there was not any control of this situation before it got so out of hand. The very least this place should do is to pay all of your vet bills. How horrific. |
| Oh my goodness! My heart is aching so much for Jasper. It is such a sad sight to see him that way. You and Jasper will be in my prayers. My heart goes out to you Jane. |
| How terrible.
Prayers, and  for you Jasper, hoping you feel better soon |
| Thanks for the tears and thoughts and wishes - Now every time I see a super cute pic of a healthy sheepdog I get teary eyed. I feel now like before I had a sheepie and was waiting over the years for that day to come and get a puppy. I feel like they are now these intangible frolicking fluffy fairy dogs - a mythical beast called the Old English Sheepdog. And you are very lucky in life to get one. I feel like getting my Jasper back as he was will be a miracle.
Tomorrow will bring more information. I had some initial attorney advice from my boyfriend's brother who is a lawyer, but he's in Arizona, so was just helping me with ideas. I found a specialty lawyer regarding dog bites in Portland, so I'm hoping to get more specific information tomorrow. I'm hoping someone is open tomorrow if I can't contact him. Some new year it will be. Springfield (home of Homer Simpson) is so small his business would be devastated if I went public. If I were him I would gladly kiss a few grand goodbye to hush me up. I would be offering even more than that actually. Oregon is also a state that favors animal's rights. And I think I'm in good shoes for trying to get some justice done. For us both. There isn't much crime here, so the news stations would take this story in a heartbeat I know. But I'm really biting my tongue as hard as I can for now. I did not get to see Jasper today. The vets were in surgery all day today, so when that happens, no one is allowed to visit in the back. I waited 12 hours to hear from the vet tonight. They did say his swelling is going down, and so is his oozing. He is up more too. But he refuses to eat. They are switching his pain meds to hopefully increase his appetite. I want him home desperately, but on the other hand I'm scared to death of having him in really shaky condition. He's a horse and my boyfriend is out of town. And of course being a student here so are all my other friends because we're all out of state transplants and get out of Eugene every second we can. I have one week left til school starts. I'm supposed to be heavily into working on my thesis AND teaching a class solo this upcoming term. If need be, I would sneak him into my studio and supervise him. I'd have to make a robe for him and go in early though. I'm an art student and I have a huge private and locked studio and they allow us to have dogs around. Either that or I'd have to rig up a nanny cam from home to check on him while I'm not there. Honestly I think he's gonna be a sleeping bear for a while, but it's just that you worry about him crashing when you're not there (blood pressure bombing or something). Well my imagination running here. Will post a hopefully very colorful photo of him tomorrow if he comes home. Will try to make him look more cozy this time. He's got one radical haircut now and I'm dying to even it out..the remaining fur is crusted with mud, blood, saline and poop I believe. I'm also thinking that since he's gonna be losing warmth that I should get a dog heating pad too. And a sterile whirlpool for water therapy. Think I could get that in the lawyer's request? Jane |
| A heating pad is a great idea, I know I have seen them in the Pet edge catalog. Don't know how quickly you could get one. ALthough if you called and explained the situatuion perhaps they could Fed Ex it. Do you have anice soft fleece bed with a washable clover? If not I'd pic up some white sheets as someone else suggested so that you could make sure Jasper has clean bedding.
Do you have a dog acupuncturist in your area? When my maltese had surgery on his knees we used one and it greatly reduced the amount of drugs needed. I swear by them even if they are a bit New Age. GOOD LUCK and keep us posted. |
| Jane-- You must be comforted to know that Jasper is improving. How agonizing it must be to have to wait for a progress call from the vet.
I am no medical (or legal) expert but--I think you are right in assuming that Jasper will need some extra protection against the cold since he is "bare" and I'm sure his resistence is low and his body temp is unstable due to the trauma. Your vet should give you instructions on how to keep him warm and comfortable. Whether you take him with you to your studio or leave him home is a decision only you can make. I am sure you would rather have him with you--is he used to going with you? Would he be relaxed at the studio? (You sound like you have a full schedule in the coming months, you poor thing). As far as the legal aspect.....I was thinking that same thing....your local TV news station AND newspaper will be very interested in this human interest story.... Knowing Jasper is improving and will be coming home soon, I am hoping you have a Happy New Year.............. |
| How about just throwing a nice soft sweatshirt on him? |
| Thanks for the update, I am so happy to hear that Jasper is slowly, but surely improving.
There is a whirlpool for dogs where Oliver does his underwater treadmill. It would probably help sooth his muscles, but with all the open wounds, infection might be a threat, even if it is "sterile". I don't really know, it would just be a thought on my mind. |
We are happy to hear that Jasper is improving, even if slowly. Mony and Laci are still thinking of him and looking forward to him coming home. I used a regular people heating pad when Laci's back end was sore and she had trouble getting up. Best wishes coming your way.  Waiting for an update today. |
| Wow. I just saw this thread now. I'm SO sorry for what has happened to Jasper. I'm glad that he seems to be on the mend. The poor boy! And you too! |
| I read this post right away when you posted and I was speechless after I saw the pictures. I'm so sorry this happened to Jasper and you. It's beyond sickening and heartbreaking. I thought about you guys a lot in the last day or so and the more I thought about it, the more angry that I got that it happened. Though I know that you need to think of Jasper's health and vet bills first, I think this whole situation needs to be addressed with the owner and changes need to be made so that it never happens again-- not to save his business, but to make sure no other poor dog has to go through what Jasper has to go through.
After I read your story a few times through, I think that you aren't getting the whole truth from the day care and I wonder if that boy was even anywhere near the room when that fight broke out. 50 bites happens fast but it doesn't happen that fast that some of it couldn't have been minimized. That's about 4 deep bites per dog if you average it out. One yelping dog shouldn't upset a pack so severely and so quickly that some of the dogs couldn't have been diffused immediately and some of the others dispersed before things escalated. At worst, there should have been enough time, and the facilities set up properly so that Jasper could have been removed from the situation. I feel like that boy walked into the fight and, by that time, it was too late and poor Jasper paid dearly for his negligence. By the sounds of it, he had no training or experience in breaking up a dog fight either but, then again, I'm not sure how one boy could possibly be ever trained enough to break up a heated 13 dog brawl-- I don't think anyone could. It sounds to me like the owner doesn't have the experience or know how in properly running a day care if he isn't staffing enough people or setting up the facility well enough so that things like this don't happen. He shouldn't even flinch about paying your bills-- that should be a given! It's his own responsibility to pay for his staff's injuries and if he's even suggesting that it's yours, again, that's another reason why he shouldn't be running a day care. Jasper's health and care should come first and I wish him a full and speedy recovery but, please use this incident as a springboard to make sure that it doesn't happen to any other dogs there in the future, too. If it ruins his business, so be it. I know you don't want to feel like you're ruining someone's life but think about how someone's life would be ruined if their dog was killed there in the future. This shouldn't have happened and should never happen again. Hugs to you and Jasper.
Jill |
| Warm some towels in the dryer, then lay a sheet over them. It will work until you can get the warming pad.
Instead of a sweatshirt right now, what about a sweater made out of fleece? Turn it backwards, so the snaps/buttons are across the back. I'm thinking ease of getting it off and on. When there is more skin healing, a regular sweatshirt would be fine. I just can't believe the injuries to poor Jasper. My thoughts and prayers continue for you both. Jasper probably isn't eating due to several reasons. It probably hurts to move, the pain meds slow down the movements in the intestines (which decreases appetite because he feels full) and the stress of being in the hospital. A low residue diet will be tolrated better - and mine love their boiled chicken breasts and rice. |
| I'm all about the polar fleece. I was thinking about offering real meat. That's way more tempting than crunchy hard food.
Well now a bad post. Jasper has a flap wound that has tissue dying - the debridment didn't go well. They want him to stay another 3 days. Then they want to transfer him to a wound specialist. It could be in the range of $10,000. It's not the money I do wonder if he will be mobile even if he recovered. I'm not making a decision until Wednesday. I will give everyone an update though. I just can't stop crying. Jane |
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| I know I haven't posted much lately, but when I saw the pictures of your baby - my heart breaks. I can't even imagine the pain you are going through let alone what Jasper is going through. Knowing how I feel about my three and especially London - I would be devastated.
Please follow the advice of everyone here and get an attorney. I am hoping for your sake that the owner of the facility has a liability policy in place. Big hugs to both you and to Jasper. You both are in my heart and my prayers. |
| Oh Jane...
I'm so sorry. Make a list of questions you want to ask... realistically, it must include the cost of treatment along with the expected prognosis for his recovery and if rehab will be required, the expected duration. If Jasper can survive these wounds I do believe he can heal emotionally with time, love and patience. But only you who can decide what's best for him... none of us can see how he's suffering. And speak with an attorney before Wednesday... see about the financial part of this. It just seems the owner of the facility should have to cover even this possible $10,000 expense if an injury occurred due to negligence. I REALLY hope this facility has taken steps to protect the dogs in it's care. |
6Girls wrote: I REALLY hope this facility has taken steps to protect the dogs in it's care. Unlikely unless this becomes public. |
Quote: I was thinking about offering real meat. That's way more tempting than crunchy hard food.
Real cooked meat might be easier for him to swallow. There's also a canned food made by Hill's Prescription Diet... it's their a/d formula. It comes in a small can and it's for both dogs and cats recovering from serious illness, injury or surgery. I gave it to Kaytee when she was an underweight pup and also to Panda after her emergency surgery in February because her bladder sutures failed. http://www.hillspet.com/hillspet/produc ... 4441760567 a/d® Canine/Feline For the Nutritional Management of Pets Recovering From Serious Illness, Accidents and Surgery Both dogs and cats can undergo significant changes when faced with a serious illness, injury or surgery. They may have trouble maintaining natural defenses and sparing lean body mass (in other words, they may be losing body weight from muscle or organ tissue), which can affect recovery. Prescription Diet® a/d® Canine/Feline pet food has been specifically formulated by veterinarians to be fed to dogs or cats in these situations. These conditions can be helped by adding the key nutrients and digestible energy found in Prescription Diet a/d. The nutritional formulation of Prescription Diet® a/d® may also be useful for pets with a variety of conditions. It may be a product the vets there keep in stock... you might ask if you could try a can with him. Give it to him on your finger or a spoon to see if you can entice him to eat. |
| Poor Jasper. I'm thinking of him and hoping for a quick recovery. |
| I actually witnessed an incident similar to this once It was at (of all things) a petting zoo at a fair.
The petting zoo had a large run full of sled dogs outside their larger multi-animal area, and noone from the facility was supervising them at all
. The attack happened fairly fast, but all of us watching could see that it was brewing for several minutes before a single bite happened. One dog was being "picked on" by several others, as the pack played...and the picking-on escalated to an attack. Many of us who were there started looking for an employee and a few people went looking for a security guard, but the fight began before we could get anyone out there. Finally, the screaming (and yelping) brought an employee Parents were covering kids eyes, customers had actually tried to get in and break it up, but the gate was locked. The woman (who turned out to be the owner of the exhibit) went in to break it up, and was bitten quite badly herself. Thankfully, the targeted dog was not hurt nearly as bad as poor Jasper was.
I had to go sit in back of my own booth and sob. The whole petting zoo vanished from the fair by the next morning. My point, I guess, is that there were very visible warning signs.  |
| I feel so bad for you both. I want to go to the news myself. I guess you have to find out what his chances for a decent recovery are. I pray with all my heart he will be ok, but you don't want a long road of pain for him either. You are both on my mind constantly...and I hope for good news. |
| I couldn't bring myself to look at the pictures. My heart is breaking for you and poor Jasper.
I am not a litigious person by nature, but I agree with everyone who said to get an attorney. Were any other dogs hurt at all? Do the owners of the dogs involved even know what their pets did? If the kennel owner didn't report the incident, I wonder if he notified the owners of the dogs that bit Jasper. It should have been fairly easy to tell who was involved. We are praying for you and Jasper. Laurie and Oscar |
| I just saw this and I am absolutely heartbroken for you. Please pursue this - your boy deserves nothing less. I hope he heals quickly and can be the happy-go-lucky boy he was before. I'm sooo sorry for you but I'm happy you're able to watch him improve and take pleasure as he heals. . .
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ravenmoonart wrote: Thankfully, the targeted dog was not hurt nearly as bad as poor Jasper was. There was probably no pitbull involved. |
| Jasper looks pretty bad. I'm really sorry for him and you.
I work for a vet, so I see this pretty often. He looks bad on the outside, and the real problem is the tissue damage done on the inside. You said they have already had to debride tissue, and I'm sure there will be alot more. The reason I'm writing is because we have what is called a Class 4 Laser. We use it on all dog fights, snake bites, hit by cars etc... It increases the blood circulation to the area and promotes healing. The swelling goes away faster and the dog really does heal up alot faster. Your vet may not have it, but it's worth asking about. You may even want to ask the specialist. I'll be praying for Jasper!! |
| My heart is just aching for poor dear Jasper. I really hope he pulls through. I just can't stop thinking about him. |
Valerie wrote: My heart is just aching for poor dear Jasper. I really hope he pulls through. I just can't stop thinking about him.
Ditto
Prayers still flowing for your darling Man. |
| There are a lot of people pulling for Jasper and praying for his recovery.
The laser therapy that Lisa (Hannah's mom) mentions sounds promising. I don't know much about it but our holistic vet has given Panda laser therapy on her hips because it was said to help increase blood flow and reduce inflammation. She was more rambunctious and boisterous after treatments. Maybe this would give Jasper the edge he needs to survive. Below is some information I found. I know this may sound foolish but I did try to write to Cesar Millan yesterday to see if he might give you advice about Jasper's emotional recovery but the auto reply indicates he doesn't answer inquiries personally. It's totally understandable... there are just too many people seeking his advice but I thought I'd try. Please let us know if we can do anything from afar. I just feel so bad for Jasper.
Hang in there, Jane.
K Laser Therapy http://www.thespaw.ca/thespaw/rehab.html Laser therapy has been used in humans for many years. The K Laser is a class 4 laser which s the most powerful therapy laser available. Previous classes of lasers were effective for superficial problems but class 4 lasers can penetrate deep in to tissue to allow treatment of large joints like hips, backs and shoulders. Laser therapy works by applying light energy at the cellular level to stimulate the cells and promote healing, increased blood flow and reduced pain. It is non painful and is applied 6 times over a 3 weeks period. Many patients show almost immediate results. Monthly maintenance treatments can often reduce the need for medication. This is especially useful in arthritic cats that do not want to swim or do exercises and are sensitive to many medications. Known biological effects of the K laser Class IV laser therapy Clinical studies and trials of laser therapy technology indicate the following beneficial effects of laser light therapy on tissues and cells: * Accelerated Tissue Repair And Cell Growth. Photons of light from lasers penetrate deeply into tissue and accelerate cellular reproduction and growth. The laser light increases the energy available to the cell so that the cell can take on nutrients faster and get rid of waste products. As a result of exposure to laser light, the cells of tendons, ligaments and muscles are repaired faster. * Faster Wound Healing. Laser light stimulates fibroblast development [fibroblasts are the building blocks of collagen, which is predominant in wound healing] in damaged tissue. Collagen is the essential protein required to replace old tissue or to repair tissue injuries. As a result, LT is effective on open wounds and burns. * Reduced Fibrous Tissue Formation. LT reduces the formation of scar tissue following tissue damage from cuts, scratches, burns or surgery. * Anti-Inflammation. Laser light therapy has an anti-edemic effect as it causes vasodilation, but also because it activates the lymphatic drainage system [drains swollen areas]. As a result, there is a reduction in swelling caused by bruising or inflammation. * Anti-Pain [Analgesic]. Laser therapy has a high beneficial effect on nerve cells which block pain transmitted by these cells to the brain and which decreases nerve sensitivity. Also, due to less inflammation, there is less edema and less pain. Another pain blocking mechanism involves the production of high levels of pain killing chemicals such as endorphins and enkephlins from the brain and adrenal gland. * Improved Vascular Activity. Laser light will significantly increase the formation of new capillaries in damaged tissue that speeds up the healing process, closes wounds quickly and reduces scar tissue. Additional benefits include acceleration of angiogenesis, which causes temporary vasodilatation, an increase in the diameter of blood vessels. * Increased Metabolic Activity. Laser therapy creates higher outputs of specific enzymes, greater oxygen and food particle loads for blood cells. * Improved Nerve Function. Slow recovery of nerve functions in damaged tissue can result in numbness and impaired limbs. Laser light will speed up the process of nerve cell reconnection and increase the amplitude of action potentials to optimize muscle action. * Immunoregulation. Laser light has a direct effect on immunity status by stimulation of immunoglobines and lymphocytes. LT is absorbed by chromophones [molecule enzymes] that react to laser light. The enzyme flavomono-nucleotide is activated and starts the production of ATP [adenosine-tri-phosphate], which is the major carrier of cell energy and the energy source for all chemical reactions in the cells. * Trigger Points and Acupuncture Points. Laser therapy stimulates muscle trigger points and acupuncture points on a non-invasive basis providing musculoskeletal pain relief. Applications K LaserMusculoskeletal disorders * Pain * Mobility * Old Age Post-surgical treatment * Orthopedic * Soft-Tissue Trauma Wound healing For more information: www.spot-check.com |
| Max had a totally different issue- however- I do believe laser is what got him up and moving again. If we wouldn't have tried it, he would not have walked again. This is a very good suggestion to help Jasper.
I cry each time I read this. It is heartbreaking, and the vison of poor,poor Jasper is never far from my mind. Prayers are coming in droves for this sweet boys recovery. And yours too! |
Oscar's Mom wrote: I am not a litigious person by nature, but I agree with everyone who said to get an attorney. Were any other dogs hurt at all? Do the owners of the dogs involved even know what their pets did? If the kennel owner didn't report the incident, I wonder if he notified the owners of the dogs that bit Jasper. It should have been fairly easy to tell who was involved.
Yes indeed other dogs were hurt. 2-3 is what the owner stated. He said their injuries were minor, maybe 1-3 puncture wounds each. He stated the owners were notified, but were not upset all ALL but very understanding. Hard to believe. I'd be in shock even after ONE puncture wound to be honest. He did NOT report it to animal regulations. I plan to do so on Wednesday. Of course, everything is closed for the holiday so I wait, wait, wait. Also, good news is that I found an in-town attorney that plans to give me a free hour. I really think that's all I need - outside this it's a civil case. At this point it's not about the money - I just want him out of business if he plans to do this to other people. he was very cocky to me no the phone today and flat out said he plans to continue with 1 employee for up to 20 dogs, and that his employee handled it very well by punching the dogs. He was proud of his courage. He said flat out, "it's jasper's fault". I've given up home I will see a penny. But I will tell Jasper's story to the world if I have to. |
| That was my post by the way - the one about the other dogs being hurt.
OK, so a breather. I can for an hour or so feel high as a kite. I'm sure the roller coaster will be plummeting tomorrow. I can't expect too much. I visited Jasper. I will post a pic. I had to wait over 24 hours to see him. They had so many surgeries yesterday that I couldn't get in. Well, low and behold my 'stink bomb' (his nickname which is now a super reality) was a bouncing pup when he came into the private room I was in for a visit. I was astounded. I have to remain grounded and not get too hopeful, but he was a different species tonight, hands down. His gait was strong and bouncy - he snoofed me - he showed emotion - he licked his lips - he did a few rolling shakes and he stood for quite a while. HIS EARS PERKED WHEN I SAID 'turkey lurkey!!'. We have wild turkeys in our hood (rural area) and you can imagine his response when he sees them out the window. He waits all day for their appearance actually and has had some close encounters - of course never even getting close though to catching one. So we had our 10 min. of love. So much of him is OK. The mass majority of the wounds are seriously scabbing with pale pink skin that is not warm or swollen. It's just 5 of the monster wounds that he's really gonna need help on. I palpated his whole body. He really did not flinch to touch - he was much more calm tonight with touch. He did start moaning a bit at the end but they said with him being off the IV, his pain med is really short acting and will literally wear off in 20 min, so this was at the end of our 10 min... His eye lid on one eye looks awful too. But so much good skin - so many gorgeous healing scabs - never thought I'd say that .... Anyway, the 2nd part to the story. I emailed two news stations. One replied within a half hour. Tomorrow morning we are going to film a story at the emergency hospital. I will post a link when I get it. It'll be on the 11 o'clock news the same day. I'm posting a video of Jasper on You tube.. I videotaped our visit or rather him totally......STAY TUNED. |
| Also Thanks Jaci for the advice about the special food. I'm going to look into it for when and if he comes home. I'm thinking about making a concoction in the blender of pupparonies - his favorite. If I leave real meat (cooked or not), it's probably not going to be a good idea if they can't get it to him fast. I also got some different meat flavored baby food. I don't know what else to try.
And thanks Lisa for the laser information. I'm DEFINITELY going to look into that. I would've never known about that. He has an appointment for Wed. with a super specialist for wound care. I laid out the funds for 3 more days. I'm into it now - might as well go all the way. God help me when my student loans come due. |
| Way to go Jasper. Keep healing and good luck Jane |
| Thank God he is doing better. I am really glad you have contacted the news stations...I was ready to do it myself if I knew who they were. Take it all the way Jane. One kid for 20 dogs is ridiculous!!!!!! |
| Whew!!! I have been holding my breath for some good news about Jasper. I'm sure he was so excited to get to see you and get some TLC that only a mom can give. I hope he continues to improve with every passing day. Were sending all the prayers we can your way!!
Good for you for calling the news stations!! It sure doesn't sound like the "business owner" gives a hoot about any of this. How can he be so cold hearted?? Something must be done to put this guy out of business so that this doesn't happen in this facility again.....ever!!! Good Luck and thanks for the update!! |
| Thanks for the update Jane!
I hope the news coverage is enough of a wake up call for the owner of the daycare to pay for Jasper's injuries. Who knows, it may be enough to put him out of business or at least hurt his business. Good Luck! |
| So now I feel like it's the night before I'm going to perform in a play. Yuck. Last time I was on TV I had sweaty hair stuck to my head and a goofy headband on. I am going to rehearse my facts and stress what I think is important and hopefully Jasper will be up to this. He loves people so I think he'll be up to this.
here is his youtube vid - Ok, you're gonna have to bear going through a lot of goofy baby pics first and they are already posted here, so bear with them and you'll see the moving video footage. He's moving - keep that in mind. Before he wasn't at all. And the same 1st day pics are there but I wanted to make a video with progression. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5ogTFWstX0 Let me know if it doesn't work. Thanks Jane |
| You'll be fine, just state the facts.... it will all be good!
I'm glad Jasper will be seen by the public. The video is so sad.
I hope your story reaches a lot of people. |
| Jane--Soooo happy Jasper is getting better even though he has a ways to go...he sounds like he has his spirit back...
Just another thought ...while your making your phone calls...maybe make one to your local Humane Society and the ASPCA...since there is definite neglect here...they may want to inspect, investigate his "business"... Still sending healing thoughts and sheepie kisses.... |
| Jane--
I just saw your video...such sweet pictures of Jasper...and heartwrenching pictures at the end. Your narration brought me to tears, hearing the agony in your voice as I was watching this ..... just thinking of you and of course, Jasper. |
Quote: he was very cocky to me no the phone today and flat out said he plans to continue with 1 employee for up to 20 dogs, and that his employee handled it very well by punching the dogs. He was proud of his courage. He said flat out, "it's jasper's fault". Quote: OH MY GAWD.
I would definitely call my lawyer. Immediately. Call the reporters asap and get that place shut down NOW!! Grannie Annie- New England OES Rescue This is a tragic eye-opener for many people who entrust their dogs with businesses touted to be dog professionals. You had a right to your dog's safety when leaving your dog in their custody and control... they were being paid for a service. You may wish to have an attorney handle any further contact with the business owner... it's got to be so upsetting for you to have to deal with his out right stupidity. I have to agree... close him down or force him to bring his facility to a reasonable standard so other dogs aren't mamed or killed due to his ignorance and unprofessional approach to handling dogs. I watched Jasper's video... it's so hard to see his goofy and beautiful before pictures knowing what pictures are coming next. Get well soon Jasper.  |
| JUST SAW THE VIDEO YOU DID GREAT , HOPE JESPER IS DOING BETTER TODAY |
| The video looks good. -Well, as good as it can with poor Jasper all ripped up.
The wound healing looks like it has a good start.
to you and Jasper! |
|
I am happy to see him standing and moving after all the horror he has been through! Does he eat now? It was a very interesting to read about the laser treatment! I wonder if we have that in my country. My very best wishes to Japer! May he heal well! |
| You need to send ups a link afetr the fliming do we know where we can see the news!!!
Staill thinking and praying for you both!!!!! |
| Good video hope Jasper getting better |
| Sending you and Jasper good wishes along your way!!! |
| I'm going to see Jasper again in an hour. He's still not eating. They are now suggesting a feeding tube. Ugh. Heart sinking again. Wish me luck offering him something- I'm very doubtful he'll eat. I guess there is no other options at this point. I am not going to sleep tonight. The specialist sees him tomorrow - I pray to god he does not need his wounds re-repaired.
And for various reasons I won't discuss here, I've also made a decision NOT to pursue this legally in any respect. That is my stance for now. I'm a bit fearful of this guy taking some sort of revenge on me - he has my home address. I'm paying this bill myself and accepting the loss. I'm just shattered about this. The news reporter did say she took a statement from the boarding place owner. It made it all very REAL for me now when she said that. I don't want to go out after dark now. I don't know why, but now that he knows, I feel horrible for everyone and that it happened at all. I just want Jasper better at any price. People spend money on dumb things like giant tvs or cars and jewelry that sits in a drawer...this is NOT a big deal. I will post the link of the news and update you on whether he eats tonight...thanks for the well wishes again and HAPPPY new YEAR! |
| Just put all of your time and energy into helping your Jasper boy heal.
We'll keep the and healing prayers headed your way!! |
| A feeding tube may be just the thing he needs to keep him strong during the recovery. I can totally understand not having the willpower to eat, especially while on pain meds and/or in pain. My heart aches for you and your dear boy but we all have to stay optimistic that he will recover. What you are doing for Jasper is amazing and I am certain he knows how beloved he is. |
| I hear that you're frightened...stay strong. Keep your options open for later. Just get through the recovery and then think about what to do later.
Remember, there is safety in public knowledge - now that we and others know this situation and the name of the business....well if anything were to happen to you or your property...you get the picture. All the better reason to keep your appointment with the attorney. Let the attorney know specifically the reasons you're afraid. DO NOT let this person turn you into a victim as well. Remember you have friends all over the world who are pulling for you and Jasper. You have to stay strong and we'll help you along the way. |
| The news story is up at: http://www.kval.com/news/12961832.html |
| OMG. That video from the news just made me cry even more...poor baby. I hope he gets better and I will babysit for you any time...my guys would love him.
You were great on TV too Jane!!!! You are my hero!!! |
rdf wrote: I hear that you're frightened...stay strong. Keep your options open for later. Just get through the recovery and then think about what to do later.
Remember, there is safety in public knowledge - now that we and others know this situation and the name of the business....well if anything were to happen to you or your property...you get the picture. All the better reason to keep your appointment with the attorney. Let the attorney know specifically the reasons you're afraid. DO NOT let this person turn you into a victim as well. Remember you have friends all over the world who are pulling for you and Jasper. You have to stay strong and we'll help you along the way. Very well said. |
| You and Jasper have our prayers and support! I am so sorry! I was just devastated to see the pictures and the news report.
I'm not surprised he's not eating. Something that worked for us before with a dog at the vets not eating. We went there personally and took some Spot's stew (You can get this very nutritious wet food at Petco or online, or call what Pet stores you have there) Our dog ate this Spots Stew when she got it from us. They want to please you so it might work. You could also try chicken or turkey baby food another really good choice. Or a chicken breast fed piece by piece from your hand. Another thing, I'm sure you've already done is talk to him like a person and tell him he has to fight and how much you love him, that's worked too for us from personal experience. Another thing to remember is you've been traumatized. You don't have to make any decisions right now only just the immediate ones in front of you. You will get stronger as this gets behind you and then you will probably have a little bit of anger to boost you along. Usually a business is at fault when anyone is hurt on their premises and have insurance accordingly. You can maybe take them to small claims court when this is all said and done. Something important to remember is you are not harming his business. His business practices harmed his business. The main thing is just get through this as best you can and be there for Jasper. The rest can be dealt with later. You will get through this! Just remember, loving sheepdogs are very very strong and he will fight with all he's got! No matter how bad it may seem he's a strong boy! |
| I just saw the pictures,HOLY JESUS!!!! I'm sitting here crying for you and for Jasper!! I can't imagine the pain and suffering you and your dog are going through. From the sound of things he is improving but you must get some food into him even if that means a feeding tube. It will help his body heal. I hear your fear about retaliation, can you get a friend or family member to stay with you for a few days, or longer if possible? I do agree with everyone about the lawyer. The owner of that daycare is a total waste of a human body and should be held accountable for the charges in his care. For his pompas(SP) disregard for your suffering and Jaspers I would sue his ass for everything I could get!!! Hit him where it hurts! Now I will step down off my soapbox and let you know that you and Jasper are in my thoughts and I prayers and I hope things continue to improve. |
| Thanks for posting the link. I am so exhausted to have to extract video and convert it.
I'm Ok with the report. I think Jasper's video footage says it all. I'm not too thrilled at all of what they edited out and put in for focus, but I'm trying to be grateful. The biggest part of the neglect was in 1:14 dog ratio. I guess it's tough for them, but it was pretty neutral - I suppose it should be, but hmmmm I still felt a little weird about it. I felt I was portrayed as a bitter consumer over a property dispute in some respects. There were so many questions they asked. I guess they can't get in the middle too much. I wasn't too thrilled with the double mention of "this is normal for dogs" as if that justifies it.- no kidding packs can act as packs but is that the issue here? No, the negligence and damage was. And also -- No one is blaming the dogs so why focus on it so much. The pitbull issue was left out as was any contact info. I'm too depressed now to be excited about it now. I was glad they showed the business a ton, and put in his stupid quote, and showed such huge close ups of Jasper. I spent a ton of time tonight with him which might have not been too good - he got stressed at the end when the vet tech took the damn collar off - she was really trying to help I know but unhooking the iv and the collar set him off into "are they going to hurt me"...I just wanted to walk him and the vet said it'd be good for him. Also, I was trying to envision what I'd be Ok with if I were sick food-wise. So I was thinking soothing, cool, sweet and made him a homemade apple sauce concoction and just plain bowtie noodles. I did ham and lasagna baby food last night. He hates any kind of dog food soft or hard. He refused everything even the vet food. He's not into his pupparonis anymore either. I just can't blame him for feeling crappy. Any human would be the same. It just sucks that humans get months to heal and dogs get less time in some senses. We expect them to snap back quicker in general. I think about what it would be like to go through this with a child. I've never lost an animal or friend or relative this close to me before so it's so devastating. And it feels so out of control like I can't be pragmatic and hold it together. I figure it's the nighttime that has me down and hopeless. I hope tomorrow will bring better things like a hungry dog. I don't think I can go through with more surgery like a feeding tube. I know it's effective, but he has an IV, so many wounds, staples, a urinary catheter - he's on so many medications I can't keep track - and all this stuff can get infected. It just seems so complicated. But I know everyone is right for saying "one step at a time and one decision at a time". It's so overwhelming. Also, he hates the soft cone collar and growls at the techs when they try to put it on him. He's picking up on body language and nuances that mean, "we're taking you into the room to hurt you"...I can't blame him again. But I worry that he could be a guarded dog with humans - maybe not me, but others. Or unpredictable if he has flashbacks. I know this is ridiculous, but your mind wanders....people can lash out just like this when sick. I was a nurse over 10 years ago and we were always the middle man that got the backlash because we usually spent the most time with people - patients lashed out because of waiting, pain, frustration, boredom, lack of communication with the doctor, not understanding things, foreign environment. It was so natural for a patient to be grumpy and project onto the nurse, blame, even physically or verbally attack - but you KNEW this was not "them" or their "true self" but a defense mechanism. And so many times after they felt better the apologies came or they became softened when feeling better. You always knew they would. I hope Jasper can forgive and forget and not see the helpers in his life as bad people. He's still walking about and perky. His neck looks so beyond comprehension though. I spent the most time with him tonight and looked at everything. So much looks good and healing - but there is just this patch or two that look so horrendous you think "this is impossible"....His neck and two front arms are the worst.... So anyway - thanks for the support...these comments are all going to come back to me when I'm more in a better state of mind and help me get through. Jane |
| Your being so strong for Jasper, and such a good Mom. Once the physical stuff is dealt with, I know you'll be able to help him with the emotional stuff. Remember that, much more than us, dogs live in the "now".
Hang in there...it really sounds like, in spite of his not wanting to eat, that he's doing better. |
| I have a friend who's black lab Berta had a horrible injury and recovered.
******Warning - it gets gross****** She cut herself on some old farm equipment in their grove. It sliced her from behind her elbow, and up over her back. Then her skin was still caught, and it peeled the hide back over her back. It literally skinned her. (Called a degloving injury) She went through tons of stuff, but is now fully recovered - just has a big scar you can see if you part her hair. She too had repeated procedures and didn't like all the stuff people were doing to her. Berta got her trust back, and is her normal happy self after she healed. Please keep the hope up - Jasper can do this! |
| Still sending loads of positive vibes and love for Jasper.
Jane you are so special, whatever happens as far as compensation goes, I am just in awe at your courage, strength and love and devotion for your special boy. He has to make it, such a special mommy and family he has.
Please keep us up to date with how Jasper is progressing. Love to you all from the other side of the world. |
| I haven't been able to view the photos yet.
Words cannot express how sorry I am that this happened to Jasper. My dogs have a fights in the past just the few wounds they got were very bad, but nothing like poor Jasper. I am squeamish about dog parks etc. I know they can work, but I am so afraid to try. I am sending very positive thought to poor Jasper. I can't stop thinking about him. He is young & sounds like he has a strong will to live. I have a feeling that he will pull through this I wish I had more to offer. sue |
| I just looked at the pictures. That poor, poor baby, his poor, poor head & legs. I am so sorry, sigh. Was he sedated in the photos?
We here are all pulling for Jasper! |
| I hate confrontation too
Though when Jasper is finally released to come home I would strongly reconsider presenting the bills to the owner of the facility. He's a business owner who charges a fee to care for other people's dogs and should have liability insurance to cover this. THAT'S what business insurance is for. Hugs to Jasper... we're all pulling for you. |
| You should ask the clinic to cap his cathertor, wrap his arm up and let you take him home for the afternoon. He may eat once he gets home.
Get him fed and then return him to continue on iv. They could even show you how to manage his iv at home if needed. |
| I know how hard it is when they won't eat. After Max's surgery, it seemed that he would never eat again. At the hospital he refused to eat anything. Once we got him home, we tried everything. Finally, we found out that if I got down on the floor and put the food in my hands, he would eat a bit. Of course, he wasn't able to stand, so that was a big part of his problem. He refused water, because he wanted to stand over his bowl. I decided to try to give him snow out of my hand, and low and behold, he would take that. So we brought snow in and put it in the freezer, in case there was a big thaw! For weeks, he ate snow out of my hand for his hydration. Tons of it!! We worried that it wasn't enough, but, the vet said to do whatever worked-- to follow Max's lead and things would be ok. I guess what I am trying to say is-- you will find a way to help this sweet, sweet boy. As long as he knows you love him, and are doing what is best for him, the rest will follow. It may take a few attempts to find what does work- but - it will be ok! Sometimes you may have to be creative, and think outside the box. Love will get both of you through this. Your love for him, and his love for you!!!
|
| Poor Jasper puppy. Poor you. Hang in, we are here for moral support.
I know it's hard to focus on now but leave your options open. This business should not be allowed to get off without any responsibility in this. You may not have the strength to deal with it now, that is why you need legal representation. A lawyer can take care of the "business" end while you concentrate on your puppy. I am just horrified that this man could in anyway not feel an obligation and responsibility to be helping you. |
| Things to tempt a tummy, provided your vet agrees: cooked chicken liver, cooked hamburger or chicken. Dogs are drawn by smell, which is why I'm suggesting home made. Or broth from any of these.
My thoughts are with you. Please do not be intimidated by the owner. I've seen people like that and you cannot let him win. |
violet wrote: OMG Jane, I just looked at the pics of your poor Jasper...I am speechless. Your poor boy. I am so glad that you went to the Vet's and saw him and walked him. We parents never feel good until we can lay our own eyes on our babies to see their progress for ourselves. I am happy to hear that he was able to get up and walk out to do his business. Thank you so much for the update.
to Jasper and You. We're pulling for you Jasper...get better soon. Oh My I just seen this post! Sending Jasper sheepie hugs! and
Sending you all |
| Lisa, that's a great idea about bringing him home to feed him if Jane lives close enough to the vet. She can also get him back quickly if she should have any problems. It sounds like she's got a good setup there.
After that incident with Panda last year, I get panicked if something serious happens after hours... but our town doesn't have an 24 hour emergency vet hospital and not all the vets on call here are good. Quote: Things to tempt a tummy, provided your vet agrees: cooked chicken liver, cooked hamburger or chicken
Good ideas.
I remember when Kaytee first arrived she was sick. She was naturally underweight due to the cleft palate but she had some kind of infection with swollen salivary glands in her neck. She had thrown up the night before and the day she flew to us so she wasn't much interested in food. The vet opened up a can of Vienna sausage and she gobbled it up. 
Sardines are real smelly too but can be appealing to a dog uninterested in food. Sometimes you can just find a food to get the dog primed, they'll start eating again. |
| Oh, Jane Again, I'm so sorry for what has happened. This is just horrible horrible horrible. I wish I could do something.
I think you did an amazing and brave thing by going to the news station and on tv. I'm happy to see they showed the facility and video of Jasper. I hope something good will come from this and your baby gets better soon. My heart is aching for you guys, I can only imagine the pain and suffering. |
| Jasper at home..after the worst night of my life..
We went to a fantastic vet - she was like the dog whisperer and put the nasty gravy pedigreed beef on her bare hands and 1st try and he licked it all up. I was in awe. He got a partial bath - he let her do that too and I was in awe. I have to give him these twice a day. I did ask about laser and she said it was for debridment only - hmm I don't know about that...I have to look it up and read it..I know I got an article someone sent, but I'm overwhelmed now. And yes a whirlpool would be best as someone mentioned, it doesn't need to be sterile, BUT unfortunately it would be too scary for most dogs...we'll stick with a light sprinkle as tolerated. The owner of the boarding place called me this AM and said he'd pay past, present and future bills IF I sign something saying i won't sue him. This is AFTER we talked for an hour though and it was a very moving conversation. He cried. I truly feel bad for the guy and I don't believe any of this was his intention..of course it wasn't...it was a fluke and a mistake, but so much needs to change at his place and he so badly needed to admit to some responsibility...he finally admitted this after he saw the news story...I feel bad for everyone now....as I said before I'm on no law trip of any kind yet - focused on Jasper and said many many prayers..I feel like all the prayers of folks here too got him through as mystic as that sounds. We shall see what transpires financially. Jasper's not out of the dark, but he was a new dog today. I had him in the truck and had to finish signing a paper - they wanted him to rest outside the waiting room and I had an entire bed set up for him in my honda element (took out the back seats) and was literally parked in front of the vets window - anyway I could see him as I was signing stuff - Jasper is Jasper again - him and his big rump and sore paws got into the front seat as if to say, "ok MOM I'm ready to go now, could you hurry up or I'm gonna drive for you"...He's getting spunky so I really have to watch him. I have many thankyou letters to write...but this is a preliminary THANK YOU to everyone.... Ironically as I was getting ready to speed off into the sunset - low and behold I had left my hazard lights on while in the vet's office - and it drained my battery - so we sat there steaming up the windows for a half hour until triple A road service showed up and gave us a boost. Then he laughed at me because it said on the card I was a "40" year member (my aunt's card, bless her soul) so that was pretty amazing that I was 60 years old...well the good hearted man left it go...LOL...and it made my day. I was up til 2 and up at 5...am so exhausted..my boyfriend gets home tonight......I'm getting some ZZZZZZZ's ...Make sure you check out Jasper's new look...a potential new pedigree model? |
| kind of infection with swollen salivary glands in her neck.
Jaci - interesting you mention this...Jasper does hae this issue too..and I wonder about the prognosis..the other vets did not catch this but the surgical vet zoned in on it in a second - he's got swollen salivary glands and she's hoping they are no damaged...long term will only tell..i wish I knew what to do for that other than the sprinkle of water over the skin. |
| Oh My Gosh........I'm so relieved Jasper got to come home with you today. Just being in his own surroundings will help the healing process. Glad he took some food too. I wish I were closer....I would come and sit with Jasper while you got some rest. I'm also glad the owner finally owned up and offered to pay your expenses. I hope this has been a learning experience for him. Again.....we will still keep our paws crossed for a speedy recovery for Jasper....and you!! Just take one day at a time. |
| Hang in there Jane!!
Go Jasper Go!!! I am so glad his sheepie personality is shining through despite the outrageously awful trauma. The new pictures show worlds of improvement. It is crazy because under any other circumstances, they would be simply horrific. Keeping my fingers crossed. . . |
| YIPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
GO JASPER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YIPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! GO OWNER of daycare!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't think you'd get any more than vet bills from any trial, and this won't cost more than a little bit for the lawyer(s). I'd take the owner up on his offer before he changes his mind. Have that lawyer of yours draft the agreement, including that you release each other ... so he doesn't try to sue you for anything.  |
|
| Wow, seeing Jasper's wounds on video was really heart wrenching. I think it did a good of conveying the message.
Glad to hear that he's improving.
Glad to hear that the owner has had a change of heart and is offering to pay the vet bills. I guess he didn't realize how injured Jasper really was until he saw the video. I truly hope that some good comes out of all of this. I did chuckle a little at the end of the video when they said they consulted another doggie day care, and they suggested using a spray water bottle to break up a dog fight. More like a fire hose might have broken Jasper's fight up. Geez. |
| Jasper really does look like he's improved quite a bit since the pics from a few days ago. I'm so happy to see that! You guys have been on my mind nonstop, every day since you posted. I really do wish you all the best. I can't even imagine what you guys are going through right now. |
| Excellent news all around. I am so thrilled he's perking up and that the owner is being a stand up guy. What a relief! |
| This is all great news! Good wishes for lots of recuperative sleep for you and Jasper. |
| OMG....just catching up with the forum after the holidays and was so upset to see this.
Jane and Jasper.....we are sending you lots of sheepie hugs and prayers. |
| YEA!!!!!! Jasper.....you keep being spunky......you sweetie boy!!!!!
So happy everything is working out..............you went through alot, kept strong and focused. You (and Jasper) are amazing.... Still sending sheepie hugs..... |
Oh Jane...He DOES look so much better! 
Im so glad to hear about the Dog care owner's change of heart...get it all in writing though!
Gentle, gentle hugs to Jasper, and rib creaking ones to you! |
| I am so glad that Jasper is home. Indeed, he does look much better. Eating is good, too.
Also glad that you were able to talk with the owner who seems willing to pay the medical bills. It would be hard to see how he could not, to tell the truth. If I were his attorney, I'd be advising him to step up to that plate, pdq. |
| God bless Jasper, I am so happy he is home sweet home. Keep getting stronger special man.
Thank goodness the owner has had a turnaround too. Jane well done. |
| I'm so glad he is home! And that you can laugh about the drained car battery.
I wish we could treat Jasper's salivary glands like we do for people - in addition to oral antibiotics, we have people suck on sour hard candy. It increases the saliva and helps clean out the salivary glands. I'm afraid Jasper would just eat the hard candy instead of suck on them. It sounds like the daycare owner is going to do the right thing for Jasper. That gives me hope that the level of care there will improve. |
| I bet he's happier than we are that he's home
He really looks good! Such a resilient boy!!!! |
| This is getting really long. Let's continue here:
http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=17662 |
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