Raising OES to be an outside/outdoors dog
This is my first post here. I am getting an OES puppy next month, and wanted to raise it as a outside of the house dog. Not that he wouldn't be allowed inside ever, but only when there people are around, and perhaps only as something of a "treat" (being inside, that is). What's the best way of accomplishing that? Some pointers would be appreciated. I do have a large yard with trees for a young dog to explore but of course, as a puppy he will be probably mostly indoors, specially during the rest of winter. I am very fortunate that for the next year I'll have plenty of time to devote to the pup, as I am working on contract, and only have to go into the office a couple times a week, plus the circumstances are such that I can take him to work. But the following year (after the pup reaches 12-16 months), I'll probably have another 9-5 job downtown again, in which case he'll probably be alone in the yard during the day most of the time. Not ideal, I know, but someone needs to put food in the bowl. Thanks! |
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| Honestly, why do you want a dog that will be kept outdoors? Especially one with the temperament and grooming demands of an OES. They are velcro dogs that live for the companionship of their people. To take on the responsibility of a puppy and banish him to the outdoors is cruel as well as being unsafe.
Even though you have a fenced yard, no dog should be left alone outside for any length of time. If you aren't willing to keep your dog indoors, whether in a crate or gated room while you're away, perhaps you should rethink getting this puppy. I have never seen an OES kept as an outdoor dog that has had a properly maintained coat. Several of them HAVE ended up in our rescue because people are unwilling or unable to keep them in proper conditions. Until you have more "ideal" situation, please do yourself and the dog a favor and wait until you've researched this breed and can properly care for him. |
| Don't do it! If you can't have an OES with you all the time as part of the family, then you would be doing it a great disservice. They are not "outside" dogs. They NEED to be with their family, in their homes, at their feet, in their laps and sometimes even in the bed. If you are not willing to live with a dog this way, then you do not want an OES!! |
| Well...don't mean to pile on by any means but I have to agree 100% with Maggie McGee.
I think there are some dogs that do better outside - bird dogs, for example. Brittany Spaniels are one I can think of that I'd judge as a better outside dog than inside dog. I don't know why anybody would choose an OES for an outside dog, though. |
| I really agree with the MaggieMcGee. This breed is not a breed that does well away from its people. Keeping a dog outside all the time is not a great life for a dog not only in terms of quality, but also in terms of its own safety. No matter what the age of the dog, it really isn't safe to leave a dog outdoors unattended. The dog can out and get hurt or killed, other things can get in and injure your dog or they can hurt on something in the yard (even by tripping or getting caught on something) and suffer until you get home.
It is also true about the coat. It's hard enough to keep a dog without mats and in good condition when it lives inside let alone outside! I'm also wondering, why do you want a dog that you aren't going to keep inside with you? Do you live on a farm and it's your intention to keep the dog with the other animals? I saw that you mentioned a yard but I wasn't sure if that meant it was just a yard or part of a larger parcel of land. There really are some dogs better suited for outdoor life, like livestock guardian dogs that are bred to live outside with the animals that they guard. Both their temperaments and coats are more appropriate for a lot of outdoor exposure. |
| I guess I must add my vote to the DON'T DO IT colum. I don't understand why anyone wants a dog to leave outside. A large part of the companionship and joy of having an animal in your life is the sharing of your day to day life and activities. You would miss so much of the wonderfulness of having a sheepie in your life by sticking him in the yard, plus I thinkhe would be very sad. |
| Why put the dog outside when you get a 9-5 job? Many people with 9-5 jobs make it work by simply training the dog properly from the very beginning. Maybe you could install a doggie door so he/she can come and go as needed?
I agree with the others... this is not a breed to be left outside in the yard year-round. The coat requirements for one... if you shave the dog down for easy maintenance, you can't leave him/her outdoors in cold weather. If you don't shave the dog down, you may have a grooming nightmare each week (the rain, snow, dirt, bird poop they roll in, etc.) along with making sure the dog doesn't get heat stroke in hot weather depending on where you live. I'd be concerned that the dog might either scale the fence or dig under in order to get attention if left outdoors unattended. The backyard neighbor's dogs scaled a 6' kennel to get away from their boring lives. Not that it necessarily would happen but what will you do if it does? Or if Animal Control shows up at the door because the dog is being a nuisance by barking all day long? Then there's the possibility of someone simply stealing the purebred dog left in the backyard everyday. Just some things to consider before making this lifetime commitment. OESs, when bred right, are a very people oriented dogs... I've found them to be a clingy breed that adores people and is dependent on human interaction. Maybe this is why many of us here find this breed so captivating. They need to be with their humans in order to thrive... they aren't a breed that takes well to being put up on a shelf and taken down only when it's convenient. Good luck with your decision. |
| You say that while he is a pup he will mostly be indoors.....and then after about 12-16 months he will be put outdoors? How could you banish him to the outside after 12-16 months of living "mostly" indoors? I am jumping on the bandwagon asking you to PLEASE reconsider getting an OES. Listen to everyone here when they say an OES has to be with their family....all the time!! |
Our first guy stayed home alone for 10-12 hours every day. He slept. Well, he slept after he did his perimeter search for food, starting with the kitchen counters. Then he slept. 
My sister had a Siberian Husky in cold cold Vermont that seemed to prefer being outdoors to being inside with the family. Or at least was resigned to it, not sure which. |
| These are people dogs for sure. They love to be with their family. |
| Couldn't agree more with the others...at 12-16 months old they are still puppies, they should mature at 18 months old but if you ask most of us we have never seen a mature OES.
This also means they want to explore and a fence won't stop them. It's okay to let them stay outside but you should always know what they are doing. |
| My first OES was an outdoor dog.......I mean REAL outdoor dog! She lived in an extremely harsh climate, romped thru the forest, etc. She started outside, whe was never a house dog and then banished. As an outside dog, her coat was a horrid mess to maintain...and often wasn't maintained. How much easier to maintain were the Siberian and St. Bernard.
Later when we became more civilized and moved into cities, she was still a backyard dog, having two other companion dogs. She still was a horrid mess. She hated her coat, hated her life and eventually ended up killing herself by eating gravel out of boredom. Her only joy was when she was with her humans or throwing her St. Bernard buddy around the yard....yes, she'd judo throw him, it was hysterical. I had noooo business having such a dog. But she was so wonderful that I promised the next dogs would be my constant companion. All the sheepies since have been inside-and-outside dogs......yes, they go outside when I'm away but our property is secure and we've never had less than 3 dogs at a time. When I'm home, the dogs have their choice, inside or out. Outside they can bark and not bother neighbors........too much. City dogs get in trouble when they bark out of boredom. My guys live in a pack and have much to keep them occupied. This is a breed that needs human companionship. They are not individual thinkers say, my other breed, Great Pyrs. By having their leaders close by, these dogs' wonderful personality, clownish nature comes through. You'd miss the wonderful nature of these dogs by having them outside too much. That said, if you have a secure, sheltered area outside with access to shade, warmth, water, entertainment, a comfortable sleeping area, etc there's no reason why they can't be outside while you are gone. Realize though they will get dirtier faster....a major concern. When you are home, they should be inside with you. Otherwise, why even have a dog? As for parties, yes, it might be better to have the dog outside so as not to spook the dog, but a well tempered dog enjoys the party as much as you do. (I was visiting a family member and had one bitch with me. The first night was a cocktail party--I'm not social so stayed in the kitchen, but the dog made the rounds all by herself, never offending a soul.) This group wouldn't allow me to have parties without them being in the middle of it. Anyway, to get back........since you start the pup inside, keep it inside. They do fine inside during the day. When home give it access to outside if it wishes and of course, plan on daily walks and weekend hikes. This breed is a working breed and needs to stretch out. If you need a low key dog, get a lap dog type dog. |
| Why do you want an outside dog? For working a farm? Guard dog? Sheepdogs are't the best guard dog, they will lick intruders and show them to the silver. I got my dogs for companionship and OES are my dream dog. I love hanging out with them. They make me laugh all the time. I just love looking at them, it makes me happy. They are definatley clowns. This IS the OES forum. People here (me included) are extemly in love with their OES. To even imagine making their very beloved family member sleep outside without a blanket and pillow is atrocious. I am partial to OES but truthfully all dogs rule. I hope you find the right dog for you. |
| I have to agree with the rest of the people. Don't get a dog if you are not going to make him/her part of the family. These dogs are very affectionate and love to play. They need companionship. |
| Thanks to all for the feedback and considerations, it is very useful as I am making these decisions prior to the arrival of my OES. I'm not getting another dog, this is a done deal, he is coming and I want to make sure that I have the best chance to make this work.
Well, though I never had a puppy, I am not a complete novice to OES. I had one growing up as a teen, which was kept largely as an outdoors dog (he slept in the garage, which was always open), and was never let into the house when everybody was away. He was a wonderful companion indeed, we got him as an adult and he eventually passed at a ripe old age, and in the many years that he spent with use the only incident I remember sadly is that once during play he accidentally killed a kitten he was friends with. I have no problem with my new dog being indoors while I'm around. The reason why I think I'd want to keep the OES outside when I'm away is that there really isn't a lot of space indoors, and if I were a dog, between being locked indoors the whole day or outdoors the whole day I'd think I'd be much happier outside, hands down. And I am considering getting him a companion buddy dog as well (we'll see how it goes) when he gets older. My yard is large and safe, the fence is high and people won't see him from the street. And of course, if it rains (we don't get snow in my part of Calif.), there are sheltered portions of the house and yard he can be at. And of course, he'll have plenty of toys around. |
Quote: I have no problem with my new dog being indoors while I'm around. But that wasn't what you originally said. Quote: perhaps only as something of a "treat" (being inside, that is).
I hope you plan to spend a lot of time outdoors with him in his yard otherwise it can be neglectful. I just think of a dog that is so used to being a close companion with their human suddenly being isolated in a backyard and only allowed in the house "as a treat". I have a dog that arrived from rescue with separation anxiety... you'd be amazed at what they're capable of doing in that state of mind (we had 5 other dogs but SA is about being separated from their human... the other dogs were no comfort to Panda). One last thing... be careful of his collar so he doesn't strangle. There have been people on occasion who have come home to find their dog has hung himself when the tags or collar have gotten hooked on the fence or something else. Best wishes to your new pup. |
| Does the breeder you are purchasing him from know he will be an outdoor dog?? Personally, I would never sell a pup to someone who would have the dog live outside at any age. It's just not fair to this particular breed. I know they would not be happy.I am telling you right now, the Old English is not the breed that will be happy as an outdoor dog. They need to be with their family.
I have to agree that there are other breeds that would be very happy given the lifestyle you have chosen for him. When I was first married, my husband, who had never owned a dog in his life, wanted an Alaskan Malamute. So we purchased one as an indoor pet. Well, I cant tell you how many screens we went through because the dog WANTED to be outdoors all the time...and we wanted him in with us!! So for our situation it was pointless to have a dog that would live outside...we wanted a companion who was with us ALL the time. Honestly, to be fair to the dog, you should strongly consider another breed. |
| I think it's great that you are asking for advice on your new puppy! And just remember, when reading all these comments from everyone, they mean well and love OES greatly, so although some responses might sound harsh, they are said out of passion, rather than anger or trying to be mean. (I apologize to anyone if this isn't your intent!)
If the main reason you want to keep the dog outside while you are away is because you think he'll be happier that way, I'd have to disagree. My dog is home alone every work day from 8-6 and is perfectly happy that way. I don't think he moves much in those hours. He doesn't need a lot of space if you give him exercise. And I also agree with the others who said it would be cruel to keep the dog mostly indoors as a puppy and then only keep him outside at a certain point. A lot of people use baby gates in their houses to keep the dog in a secure location so he doesn't hurt himself by getting into trouble while they're away. That way the dog has some space to move around, but isn't free to roam everywhere. |
This OES had access to the house as a "treat", too. I have never seen a coat matted worse. Not to mention that he had to be euthanized due to aggression. Limited interaction with people = a dog with problems.
I am home with my two OES all day and they sleep most of the time. Some dogs are very comfortable (and safe) all day in a crate but do need exercise in the morning and/or evening. |
| I have to laugh, when I come home, there's no question, the sheepdogs are coming inside! They are first through the door....I keep asking them to at least carry a grocery bag. When I'm home, they are with me or outside with my husband.
My husband's fear is if there is a house fire while we were gone, the dogs would be inside. Also remember I've had up to 7 dogs at a time, no way I'd want 7 in the house with no access to go pee. So I have no concern about leaving the kids outside when I'm gone. They have access to the garage where there is a giant crate. Also carpet pads are about if the crate is already occupied. The covered porch has 4 dog beds on it. They are happy to be outside, barking at the neighbors' dogs......they have their own special bark-mate.....one dog will wait at the fence for it's companion and then they start the ruckus...it is funny. They like to race the UPS trucks down the road.......inside the fence of course. My guys enjoy being outside and will even let themselves out during the day if I'm not paying them enough attention. If I lived in the city with limited space, I might think differently. |
| panda LOVES LOVES LOVES to be outside...she knows how to open the screen door and now also the framed door!
I just let panda decide if she wants in or out....i end up closing the door after her a lot 
it always amazes me that she would rather sleep outside in 40 degrees than inside with me snuggling...... i guess i raised my girl to be too independant!  |
Now that the weather has cooled down here in Florida, my two girls spend most of their time outside day and night. They do this by choice, because we have doggy doors. Violet loves to nap under the Chinese Palm Tree or under the Banana Tree so she can peek through the privacy fence to see the neighbor when they come out back.  China lays under the Chinese Palm or in my flower garden...China also loves to lay out in the sun. The two come in and check on me periodically during the day when they feel the need. During the summer, they spend most of their time in the house with the a/c on. They enjoy listening to the noices in the neighborhood and have other dogs bark to them periodically.
Of course weather is a big issue, but you will be surprised how much time they will want to spend outside on their own. Sometimes, at night, China will lay up on the bed with me...Violet likes to lay on the floor next to her Daddy. Dogs do like to be with their people, you must keep that in mind. Good luck! |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: This OES had access to the house as a "treat", too. I have never seen a coat matted worse. Not to mention that he had to be euthanized due to aggression. Limited interaction with people = a dog with problems.
======= Maggie, Even dirty, it's still a beautiful dog! I would have loved him all the same; dirty dogs deserve love as well! I would think socialization has nothing to do with keeping him indoors/outdoors. Other than the time that I'm away at work, he'll have lots of socialization. I am planning to take him everywhere with me: shopping, hiking, backyard parties with friends. I'm also an amateur musician, and am planning to get him used to people and live music, so that he can follow me to rehearsals, concerts, etc. I am planning to take him to obedience class as well. I am confident that I can make him a socially well adjusted dog, it's the puppy aspect that I'm lacking in experience. After reading the advice on forums, maybe I'll try crating him as a puppy at night, and carry the crate in an out of the house throughout the day before letting him out to play & poo. During the day, he'll only be allowed to play freely inside following a pee or poo episode outside. Would this strategy work? |
| Why are you so afraid of accidents I have to ask? Carrying a 6 month old in a crate is a job. Just take him straight out after the crate and you should be fine. My 7 month old is crated all night, but has only once pooped in the house during all his training time. He came to us at 8 weeks. He is very unlikely to have an accident even now, but I don't trust him with chewing yet. We have dog doors and he always goes out to do his business, but if I leave them alone, he has an older adopted sheepie sister, he gets crated. She is loose in the house...locked in I might add, until we get back.
No problems!!! |
| Crate training is a great thing. I don't think you need to worry about 'carrying him" in and out in the crate. They learn very quickly that as soon as you open the crate door it is time to head outside for potty time.
Sounds like you plan to be very involved with your pup, that is a good thing. I would just plan on making him a house dog and spending as much time outside with him as you can. I think you will be pleasantly suprised at how quickly they adapt to life in a house, They are "big" dogs but they really don't require "big" space. When Taske was just a few months old I found myself unexpectedly living in less than 800 square feet with a yard he was not allowed to be tied out in or to run lose. He adapted very well, we did alot of walks and I took him to my local park every day. Just this weekend I was watching a dog show on TVt remember whihc one it was. The announcer was talking about how adaptable OES are, whether they live in the country on lots of land or in the city in a small apartment. Your sheepie will do just find in a proper sized crate when you aren't home. When you are home he'll be at your side giving you love and affection. There just won't be time to "leave him out"  |
| I strongly suggest a doggie door. Works for us. Girls come and go as they please. I would never keep a dog, any dog outside alone. What a sad life. I don't think this breed is for you. Try to get out of it. I think you will both be unhappy with each other. |
| A doggie door to a small fenced area might be just the perfect option for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Great idea |
Quote: I would think socialization has nothing to do with keeping him indoors/outdoors.
Socialization is the act of getting a dog used to things so that they become the norm. A dog left outside will really embarass you at rehearsals when he lifts his leg on the side of the stage..There is no way you can keep him outside, and then expect him to behave normally when inside. A dog who lives outside gets very excited when he sees people. Outside means away from you, and again, that means not learning how to behave with people. Training is an ongoing activity that needs to be reinforced over and over again...Throughtout the day. You are setting yourself and your pup up for failure with your plan, I'm afraid. What you should be doing is looking at him as an indoor dog, that gets a lot of outside time... |
| I have to agree with the majority. I worked full time when I got Barney as a pup. He stayed indoors in a crate until he was house broken, then had the run of two rooms in the house. Now with two OES, they have the run of the same two rooms when I'm out, but spend most of their time in the kitchen.
A WORD TO THE WISE; OES ARE HERDING DOGS. WHEN HERDING DOGS GET BORED THE BECOME INCESSANT BARKERS. THEN THE NEIGHBORS COMPLAIN AND EITHER THEY THEN BECOME INDOOR DOGS, OR THE POLICE WILL BE AT YOUR DOOR. I speak from experience with a collie I had before I got my present OES' |
| Amazing, no yard is large and safe. Oes when bored dig and eat anything. They'll chew your porch, window sils, siding, concrete, dirt rocks, plants and possibly choke on that stuff or toys. Toys for them are only fun when they interact with people. A second dog will only create more reason to keep them outside because of their interaction with each other. When they are inside they only stay excited when you get up or come home, except for treats. And, they only stay excited for a short period of time. When outside or in a garage they get wound up and then the problems inside arise on trying to settle them down. It's obvious too that you have zero idea of the problems in trying to take care of their coat which they will need intact if they are staying outside. The desease, infection, flees, ticks, smell. You think you know better but I promise you that you don't. We rescue many from folks with this exact same attitude. The real problem is when they are to stubborn to give them up after they screw them up and the dog suffers for life.
I honestly believe that having this pup for a while you'll hopefully realize how different they are than some other types of dogs and understand why they are a inside, family member type of dog. zach |
Quote: Even dirty, it's still a beautiful dog! I would have loved him all the same; dirty dogs deserve love as well!
He was a beautiful dog... Maggie McGee IV tried very hard to save him. His coat wasn't just dirty... she had to sedate him to shave off that horribly matted and painful pelt. After unprovoked biting incidents, she came to the sad understanding that Bear was un-placeable and had to be euthanized. Too many people failed him along the way. http://thesheepiestore.com/Bear.htm I guess some of us have seen wonderful dogs ruined. You sound like your willing to make some compromises for him which is good. Maybe with some adjustments in your approach to housing him he'll be able to thrive. Along with possibly installing a doggie door (we don't have one but I've heard from people they can be great), maybe he could spend once a week at a good doggie daycare. A couple of my dogs have been to one and enjoyed it... they came back beat at the end of the day from romping in the woods and planned activities. I do agree... once you actually have your pup and you discover the type of companion he is, you may come to understand some of the view points we've shared. They are an amazing and wonderful breed. |
| My dogs spend a lot of time outside, but only when someone is home. Mine are homebodies in that they have never strayed (knock wood) even when someone accidentally left the gate open or when they learned to unlatch the first latch we had installed. (Hubby spent a long time finding one that was more secure). I should mention that none of my 3 dogs enjoys being outside alone. They may clamor to go out, but if one of their canine siblings or resident human isn't outside, too, they want to be inside pretty quick. Also, they have ESP when it comes to food: they know if the refrigerator door has been opened, even if they are sleeping in the shade outside. Or if the humans are having a lot of fun. They want to join the party.
I am less concerned about what my dogs might eat outside (they've managed to digest any number of pairs of underwear and shoes inside the house) than I am that someone might decide to lure them away (they love car rides and don't understand about not going in cars with strangers--heck, they've never even met a stranger), or out and out take them. Or, do something stupid and mean to harrass them. I live in a neighborhood with lots of foot traffic, and some people are more stupid and more mean than you might like to believe. The other thing has been touched upon: my dogs will bark at unusual things (even a paper bag blowing across the lawn), people and especially other dogs. In the interests of maintaining good relations with my neighbors, I stop this behavior as soon as I hear it. But if I'm not home, I can't hear it and I am pretty sure my neighbors would and as much as they love my dogs, if I find their barking annoying, I can only imagine my neighbors feel the same. I live in Minnesota: the summers here get very hot for my dogs, for whom we run the air conditioning. Yes, we have a well shaded lawn, but when it's hot, they do not want to be outside for very long at all. I'm almost certain that our Minnesota summers do not get as warm as yours in CA, just as our winters (springs and falls) are much colder than yours. Heat stress is a very real and very serious health issue for OES. I think that a sensible solution would be for you to have a doggie door, or else, perhaps to choose a different breed. OES truly do love to be with their people. |
| We have two Great Pyrs who live outdoors only. They are wonderful dogs, but only want to visit inside on occasion. Much easier coat to maintain, as they are suited for outside living. The dirt kindd of falls off of them, and you only need to give them a good brushing every week.
We miss having an OES dog and are ready for an indoor dog again. There is nothing like a wiggle-butt fuzzy face for an indoor dog!
Go with a Great Pyr for outside. Then later if you have more together time, go for the OES. They stick to you like glue. |
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