tail length
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| You shouldn't have a stub at all. It should be clipped to the last vertebrae and nearly flush with the body. |
| WOW - Thanks! I had no idea. I actually prefer the look of the stub. You can't see it most of the time anyway, unless I have my girl clipped short. |
| My female has a about a 2" stub and my male has no sign of a tail whatsoever.
Having a stub means the tail was incorrectly docked. |
| Obe has no stub it was clipped as it should have been. You can barely feel where it was. I guess which is why his butt wiggles so much. No tail to wag so I shake my A*#. |
| has this standard evolved over time? I seem to remember OES having stubs as being more commonplace when I was younger (oo that dates me). |
| You are lucky that you are still allowed to dock the tail, where I live in Germany there has been a docking ban since 1996, in between times we have got used to the fact that they keep their tail although they no longer move so gracefully. |
dairymaid wrote: You are lucky that you are still allowed to dock the tail, where I live in Germany there has been a docking ban since 1996, in between times we have got used to the fact that they keep their tail although they no longer move so gracefully.
Is there a cleanliness issue? I know sheep can get infested with flies very easily if their tails are left on. |
| Hi Kerry, when I am honest about it I find they keep themselves cleaner with the tail, the reason is the tail keeps the coat away from the problem zone. It is a matter of opinion. Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo  |
| They should have nothing, but many do have a bump or a stump even. I really hate it when it's an indent... grosses me out. |
I love my sheepies tail and my yorkie has one as well. Summer lays on the floor and wags her tail keeps the floor lovely and clean!  |
Tasker has nuttin, in fact it was many years before I knew sheepies even had tails. I thought "bobtail" ment they were born without tails  But now I know differently, thanks to OES.org! |
| Tucker has a tiny little stub, and I adore it! I don't mind if it isn't "breed standard" because we won't be showing. It looks so adorable when he wags it, especially when he really gets excited and it ends up his whole lower body is wagging back and forth!
I have heard that sheepdogs without tails are a little bit clumsier than those with a tail. Does anyone have experience with both who could comment on that? I have mixed feelings about tail docking. On the one hand, it IS how they have always looked and it is really adorable. On the other hand, if they aren't actually herding and there is therefore no danger if it getting caught, etc., it seems a little bit cruel to me to dock it just because WE like the way it looks. Thoughts? |
| I love sheepie tails. |
| Hello, I am new here and to OES. I have always wanted a OES and now that I am 40 years old and stable. One happened to fall into my lap. I am reading and learning a lot. My little girl has a tail with at least 7 joints. She has not been docked then correct? I love her tail and with my other dogs this is the shortest tail, but appears to be long for OES's. Can someone confirm for me are they only 7 joints, approximately 6-7 inches long? Small library and I am searching the net now. What a great website. Looking forward to learning about grooming and nutrition. Tal |
Talmasca wrote: Hello, I am new here and to OES. I have always wanted a OES and now that I am 40 years old and stable. One happened to fall into my lap. I am reading and learning a lot. My little girl has a tail with at least 7 joints. She has not been docked then correct? I love her tail and with my other dogs this is the shortest tail, but appears to be long for OES's. Can someone confirm for me are they only 7 joints, approximately 6-7 inches long? Small library and I am searching the net now. What a great website. Looking forward to learning about grooming and nutrition. Tal
If you are in the U.S. or Canada, you shouldn't have a tail at all. A reputable breeder will have docked the tail properly. Often dogs with tails from backyard breeders wind up in rescue situations in North America but it isn't the standard for the OES. In England, Europe, Australia and some other areas, tails are now the standard so a full tail is fine. I don't know about specific joint numbers because at that point, you either have a tail or you don't-- you wouldn't just crop a vertebrae or two. I do know the tail should be white tipped. |
| If the tail has not had any procedure done to it, then it should have a white tip at the end.
Here is baby puppies with a tail. 
Here is adult OES with a tails 
These photos will give you an idea as to wether your OES has the full length tail or wether it has been docked incorrectly.  |
ButtersStotch wrote: If you are in the U.S. or Canada, you shouldn't have a tail at all. A reputable breeder will have docked the tail properly. Often dogs with tails from backyard breeders wind up in rescue situations in North America but it isn't the standard for the OES. In England, Europe, Australia and some other areas, tails are now the standard so a full tail is fine. I don't know about specific joint numbers because at that point, you either have a tail or you don't-- you wouldn't just crop a vertebrae or two. I do know the tail should be white tipped.
While tails have become the "defacto state" in countries where docking has stupidly been made illegal it is NOT the standard and in my opinion is as far from fine as anything to do with this breed can get. The breed standard in many, if not all, of those countries has yet to be amended to define the tail length, carriage, coat or colouring. (In some cases the parent national kennel club has imposed wording about the tail but I am not aware of any national breed club that has endorsed such an imposed statement. If anyone in those countries can provide facts to the contrary please do.) This has led to a lot of confusion in the ring because no one really breeds to a specific "type" of tail and their is still a lot of personal "initiative" as to tail carriage, grooming and trimming/not trimming the tail. A number of clearly inferior dogs have been placed above otherwise very good dogs because of a "nice" tail and the good dogs having a "not so nice" tail. Such infuriating incompetence! For reasons steeped in history, tradition and practicality these dogs are, or should still be, the BOBTAIL! Any amount of tail is historically wrong and in North America at least, contravenes the breed standard. Damn; how ironic is it that a country that declared unilateral independence and one that legally susseeded from Britain are now the last significant bastions of a truly and quintessential British tradition! Long Live the BOBTAIL. Carl |
| Agreed Carl!!!!! What is a bobtail with a tail???? |
Carl Lindon wrote: are now the last significant bastions of a truly and quintessential British tradition! But for how long? When the HSUS decides it needs to fundraise after it has pissed through the money it raised off of the Michael Vick story, will they turn their efforts to ban tail docking and/or ear cropping? Or will it be PeTA? |
| Right Ron. I think the breeders of America need to gather forces and build a group as strong as PETA. How can anyone fight to preserve the integrity of any of the dog breeds that have ears or tails done otherwise? |
wendy58 wrote: Agreed Carl!!!!! What is a bobtail with a tail????
This was an easy question an "Old English Sheepdog". |
| I know...they are wonderful dogs with or without tails. It was a shock to me, however, the first time I saw a picture of one with a tail. Personally, I think they should be accepted for show both ways...up to the owner or breeder to decide. |
| Hi Wendy, in Europe nearly all countries have banned docking and we have the constant discussion about how the tail should be carried, as a show person I think this argument will go on for a number of years. The first OES you own takes getting used too, as we all know they are very happy dogs and believe me they do some damage with this broom they now have. The tail has its advantages as their bottoms do not get so dirty, they are not so clumbsy, and last of all there is absolutly no reason to dock the tail just because it was always that way. I love my bobbies and I cannot imagine them now without the tail, as they are a very special breed with or without tail. PS "Dairymaid carries her tail with pride. Tail wagging from the Tikki-ti-boo sheepies. |
| When they have them...they do have beautiful big fox-like brush tails...at least they don't have ugly rat tails like dobermans. |
My Roxy (at the bridge) had a tail....and it was like you said Wendy.."a big fox-like brush tail". I used to love the to hear that "thump thump" sound when she was laying down and would get excited about something. Although I never knew where her life started out...she was no dout a product of a back yard breeder as she and her brother were dumped out in the country. She was about 1 year old when we got her and we just figured it was too late to crop her tail...so we left it alone. She was our first sheepie and and we didn't know much about the breed until we got her. When Bella came to us....we were so used to seeing a sheepie "with" a tail....that is was strange having one "without" a tail.  |
| Hi Wendy, Like all breeds the tail varies a little, the standard now says the tail should be well feathered, I have two at home and they both have lovely tails profusly coated. When you see an OES cut nearly all the owners leave the tail with coat. When in stand they carry their tail between their legs it can't be seen, in movement my bitch carries her tail elegantly, my dog slightly over his back. If you want I could look out some photos where the tail can be seen. Long live the tail wagging bobbies. |
| I was looking at your pics and saw the lovely tails. Funny how sheepies think they need to pre-rinse dishes in the dishwasher.
I looked at the upcoming puppy pic and Bella comes from some of the same breeder lines. Rheata on mom's side, and Lamedazottel and Stourvale are on both sides, as well as Raffles. Ali said she was English breeding, hence the different type of coat. I'll bet that pup will be gorgeous...so cute already! |
| Hi' All
To say there is a docking ban in the UK is a piece of rubbish' as you know the UK is made up of four countries. England which has not totally banned docking. you are still allowed to dock some working breeds ie: Spaniel, Terrier, and a lot more. It seems here some dogs feel pain. and some don't, the Ban started 6th April 2007. Scotland at least has a total Ban which came into force 30th April 2007. Wales has the same Ban as England starting March 28th 2007. Nothern Ireland still has no Ban. Sooo much for the UK. KC this is how a united country behaves. The Docking Ban was pushed into law by a minority of protesters, who would stoop to any level to be heard. The most stupid thing is anyone can remove dew claws soo I can ask my grandkids to go out with the garden clippers , and remove the dew claws. Is this crazy or what?. Having been in the breed for over forty years I can't get my head round the whole thing. There is no change in the breed standard with the KC. We can show without tails at any show in Scotland, But England Wales will not allow the showing of docked breeds after the date the ban started. Nothern Ireland has not changed. really confusing for a Country called the Uk. What do we have in government. After all this it will be looked at again in two years, the Conservative party has stated if elected they will reverse this ban, along with the Ban on fox hunting. Take care. keep the Bobtail, and don't confuse the issues. |
| We have Cites and towns and each has it's own set of bylaws, and on top of those are our "United States" and each of the 50 states has a different set of laws and on top of those laws there are Federal laws. I don't know why this would be bad or confusing to anyone. |
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Mel & Tucker wrote: Tucker has a tiny little stub, and I adore it! I don't mind if it isn't "breed standard" because we won't be showing. It looks so adorable when he wags it, especially when he really gets excited and it ends up his whole lower body is wagging back and forth!
Hense, my question. My OES has a smaller than the "tails" shown, but no nubbing, like the breed standard appears to show. I know I got her from a breed farm and I am upset with that, ut was a rescue situation. I like her tail, but I guess it isn't as long. I will take a picture and you can tell me. I was asking basically out of curiosity, did they do something to abbies tail or not and it is just a "short" long unbobbed tail. |
| Does Abbie have a white tip on her tail? |
| Sorry...his tail. |
| Hi Shylass, I am a Scottish patriot now living in Germany and a member of the scottish OES club, I used to think your way and I know plenty of breeders who said they would stop breeding when the docking ban came into force, after over 10 years of docking ban in Europe they still breed, we have a wonderful breed and we should pay a little more attention to keeping the breed the way it is health wise and less attention to the docking ban. I do not believe the Tories that they will reverse the decision, all parties make promises and never fulfill them. You like the bum wagging dogs as they are, wait until you have a tail wagging OES you will fall in love with them, yes in the ring the gait has changed but we have health problems in the breed which we should pay our attention too and accept the fact the OES is born with a tail and had the right to keep it since the majority are now pets and not working dogs and as show dogs there is absolutly no reason to dock the tail just for beauty grounds. A Happy New Year to all from all at Tikki-ti-boo |
| Wow - after being away from this topic for a few weeks I am surprised at how passionate everyone is! I suppose, though, that we all love our dogs and practices just the way they are, so it's good to be passionate about what we believe in.
Here is my question: I completely understand the historical reasoning for why an OES would benefit from having his tail docked, and I also understand that if, in the current day, a person is using the OES as a working dog then it would still perhaps be a good decision to dock the tail (it won't get caught, bitten, and many more reasons I am sure). But if you are not using the OES as a working dog, is it fair to " alter" the dog from his/her natural born state? Removing the dew claw is still a health conscious decision in my opinion, but I can't rationalize docking the tail. Just looking for opinions for reasons other than maintaining tradition... |
Mel & Tucker wrote: But if you are not using the OES as a working dog, is it fair to " alter" the dog from his/her natural born state? Removing the dew claw is still a health conscious decision in my opinion, but I can't rationalize docking the tail.
Just looking for opinions for reasons other than maintaining tradition... Let me turn this on its head for a moment (and play devil's advocate): is it fair to alter the natural of state of the dog and to subject it to major elective surgery for the convenience of the owner? No, I'm not talking about tail docking - I'm talking about spaying a bitch....hm One of the things that gets people so passionate regarding the tail issue is the political implications. The same people who decry tail docking as cruel and an elective evil want to see all of our dogs spayed and neutered....talk about major, invasive (certainly for bitches) elective surgery...hm Mind you, there are some health benefits to the individual dog to s/n - reducing/removing the risk/occurence of mammary cancer and pyometria in bitches and testicular cancer in males. But did you know that dogs that are not intact actually have a higher risk of other cancers and orthopedic problems? Not saying we shouldn't spay/neuter. There are good reasons to do so - and good reasons not to. Yet, the same people who have pushed through docking bans have a very selective view of what is cruel or harmful, and that is aggravating. That said, I've watched quite a bit of video of OES with tails doing agility and to a lesser extent herding, and though it struck me as outright odd to see that tail in the beginning, once you get past that you realize that those dogs have greater stability and are not only more athletic, probably healthier over the long haul for having their tails. I go back and forth on this issue with my vet who says she'll be happy to leave the tail on my next agility OES puppy pick. Yeah, right. If you can't (reliably) pick a show prospect when they are only hours old, you sure as you know what can't pick an agility prospect, which takes into account so many more complex aspects of the dog than mere structure (though that is important), most of which are not even evident at that age!!! So we just kind of laugh about it at this point. That said, I don't want to see a docking ban imposed in the US. I find it infuriating and would probably protest on principle, with my (potentially) tailed OES by my side But in the grand scheme of things I'm with Dairymaid and still think there are bigger, predominantly health, issues to deal with in this breed and we certainly can't afford to let the tail/no tail issue divide us WITHIN the breed.
The way I see it, there's room for both. Kristine |
| I guess it's a darn good thing I didn't call this site bobtails.org or bobtails.ru |
Hi Kristine  To a certain extent you are right, but as I understand in the states this spey/neuter issue is to a certain extend a demand written into contracts that some breeders make on their puppy buyers before they release the puppy  . After a breeder takes money for a pup in my opinion their authourity over that pup ends there, of coarse their responsability carries on to the end of the dogs life, but they should know that before they start breeding  . Of coarse there are political implications behind the tail docking issue and each goverment that enforces the law hopes to win votes somewhere along the way and I agree with your opinion that the same people who banned docking want to enforce spaying or neutering which involves major internal surgery where complications can easily crop up. should the surgery be necessary due to health reasons then of coarse it has to be carried out, but just for the convience of an owner or because a breeder includes it in their contract definately not  .I have had 3 Sheepies without a tail  , yes it lovely to see them walking like a bear and mine tended to be quieter than the two I have at the moment with tails , plus you have the discussion now about how the tail should be carried  , as far as I am concerned as long as they don’t have it in their mouths then everything is okay, every person who has a sheepie that I know has a different opinion to this and it will take years until we reach some sort of agreement if ever. the thing I have noticed the most they are not so clumbsy, they have cleaner butts and they can corner better without losing their balance  . At this point you bring up a subject which lies heavy in my guts, I have watched many dogs doing agility and personnally think the OES is to heavy for this sport, if you can call it that, the chances of injuries is quite high and over the years it affects the dogs skeleton or general health immensly, the OES was a herding dog who causually jaunted along, at no point did they herd sheep against a stopwatch and have to complete a circuit with narrow bridges etc. There are many sports where the OES will receive acclaim but agility is not one of them, dog dancing, obedience are ideal to give them a task .Thanks that you agree with me in principle and I will give you my full support fighting the docking ban in the states, of coarse only if you have your undocked OES by your side, then it will surely come over there rather sooner than later. In the countries that have introduced it in Europe most people have accepted the fact and in between times grown to like the tail, although we still yearn for the good old days, you are right this must not divide us but unfortunately the risk is there, of coarse the health problem is immence and we cannot ignore it anymore, but like the greenhouse effect we will probably wait until five past twelve rather than five too .Kristine keep up the good work you are doing in the forum you have my support and I enjoy reading your articles do not be too angry about my comments regarding agility this is purely my opinion .Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo |
dairymaid wrote: At this point you bring up a subject which lies heavy in my guts, I have watched many dogs doing agility and personnally think the OES is to heavy for this sport, if you can call it that, the chances of injuries is quite high and over the years it affects the dogs skeleton or general health immensly, the OES was a herding dog who causually jaunted along, at no point did they herd sheep against a stopwatch and have to complete a circuit with narrow bridges etc. There are many sports where the OES will receive acclaim but agility is not one of them, dog dancing, obedience are ideal to give them a task
. Well, in reality no dog was bred to run across dog walks and weave through a bunch of stakes in the ground . But the medium sized/lighter build dogs have the advantage, that's for sure.
As for OES, I think it depends very much on the dog. You don't pick a heavily boned OES for an agility dog - simple. I'm always drawn to the finer boned bitches. They should have bone, just not so much that it becomes a burden to lug around. They should have width, but, frankly, too wide is also a burden. Those bitches are fine for the breedring and the whelping box and then you watch what they produce and look for the dogs you actually want to do something with: i.e. you select on the lighter, more agile spectrum of the litter. Ideally, you look for dogs who are very structurally sound - nice shoulder layback, nice length of neck, good but not necessarily excessive angulation (once you get into the excessive range, though it's very pretty on the ground and I'm drawn to it myself , you are asking for greater instability). On the flip side, you don't want a dog that has so little reach and drive it can't cover a field in less than a day...And you want balance. That's the ideal. You don't always get all of that in one package, along with the biddability, heart, working drive and intelligence that should be part of the package, but you do have to be careful what you compromise on.
Oh, wait, much of what you want in a well-bred OES anyway. Just not the heaviest boned, widest one you can find. Honestly, this is supposed to be a working dog; an athletic, sturdy, hardy dog who should be able to pull out all the stops and move quickly, at least for shorter distances, and turn sharply as needed. In the US there are a number of different organizations that allow for different jump heights, A-frame heights etc etc. There's room to play at some level for almost any OES. Mind you, there are obstacles that are generally not so great for any larger/driven dog, especially (and that includes the breed that rules the sport: Border Collies) the weave poles. My chiropractic vet sees them and cringes. The sport itself is hard on dogs. There are definitely risks (though every injury one of my dogs has incurred has been while they were running around beating up on each other!!!  ) and especially repetitive stress ones. You train, condition and compete according to your dog. And basic common sense: no fat, unconditioned dogs or you're begging for trouble.
That said, I think the biggest liability in agility with the breed is the lack of tail (rudder), both for steering and braking. So, yes, I do think the docked OES is at greater risk of injury. My oldest girl has spondylosis. On the flip side, so do a lot of OES who barely get off the couch. But do I think agility put more wear and tear on her? Yes. But it also kept her fitter. Here she is at the national a few months shy of ten years old, up on that narrow bridge in fact
My conclusion: depends on the dog and the common sense (or lack thereof) of the owner/trainer/handler, not the breed. But I do understand your concern. It's actually a concern not just for OES, but the sport itself, as it advances and we keep pushing our dogs further and faster. So there are improvements in equipment design and so on as we go along, but, yes, here too never fast enough.
And I'm not easily offended: I always enjoy a well though-out, civil discussion. Kristine |
| I have mixed feelings about tail docking. On the one hand, it IS how they have always looked and it is really adorable. On the other hand, if they aren't actually herding and there is therefore no danger if it getting caught, etc., it seems a little bit cruel to me to dock it just because WE like the way it looks.
Quote: It is not cruel when done properly, I band mine just a few hours after birth and they never cry or are uncomfortable. |
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