health testing in various countries?
The numbers (now) have significance. I'll use Mad's as an example: SD-9721E30F-PI SD means sheepdog. 92721 indicates her number. "E" means she was rated Excellent. 30 means she was tested at age 2 1/2 or 30 months. F means she's female and PI means she has permanent indentification - a microchip in her case. However, we also know that deafness and hypothyroidism are problems in the breed, as well as some cardiac problems, so ideally those five, plus, though I don't know that it's been a big problem (but how do you know, if you don't test?) elbow dysplasia. If you look at the CHIC registry: http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=SD you can see that ideally OESCA feels OES should be tested for problems related to: hips and eyes and thyroid at a bare minimum. Hearing (BAER) and Cardiac are still optional, but considered important and will probably eventually be required for CHIC inclusion. Elbows are rated normal or dysplastic - I don't think there are degrees of dysplasia, but I could be wrong. In this country, x-raying elbows is relatively new. To be honest, I hadn't thought about it till someone who had Mad's sister had hers done and then I thought - well, why not? Eyes are either pass or not, though there are some conditions that are considered "breeder's option". I had my then 9 1/2 year old dog's eyes redone this summer because I thought she was having problems seeing in the dark and wanted to run her one last time in agility (and feared PRA, to be honest, because I have springer friends who are battling this), but the vet. opthamologist said all he could see was the natural hardening of the lens that occurs with age. I also had Mad's CERF (that's what they call the eye testing here in the US) done to be updated for the OFA site at the same time, and though the vet saw no problems of note this time, he said that he thought he saw the beginnings of what they call "punctate cataracs of unknown significance" and may have to note them as such by next year (they should be updated annually, or at least every two years now that she's five. Even though she won't bred again). Those are one of those optional codes. Belle's daughter was noted as having such when she was tested at age five. I can't tell you what it means. I know they pass because it is evidently thought to be insignificant (doesn't develop further) in the breed. At least in this country. Hearing is simple: pass/fail. One test. No need to retest as the dog is either congenitally deaf, or not. I think that covers what should be tested in the US. When I'm trying to determine foreign testing, I come across either 0/0 for hips (that's good, right?) or an alphabetical designation (A, B, C, D? ) But I'm not sure what that means either. Sad, I know 
How are eyes tested in other countries? Is hearing routinely tested? Is thyroid function routinely tested? Cardiac? Any insight would be really appreciated. Thanks! kristine |
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| kristine,
Good intfo, I am looking to get the test run on Chewy when he is two years old. Nice to have a list. Any idea how much the full gambit of testing will set me back? (need to know when to start setting aside lol) |
| Hi Kristine, in Australia we do the hips like in the UK.
We don't have fair good or excellant. A score is determined by 5 people reading the submitted x-rays. They have to go to the AVA here for reading and scoring in the UK it is the BVA. Each side of the hips are measured and scored. There is also from the register an average of all the combined scores of OES that have been done. At the moment the breed average in Austalia is 17 combined. In the UK I think it is around 23 combined (could be wrong with that one it's been awhile) So a score is done on each side of the hip /joint looking at all the angles, sub laxation etc etc. A score is then given on all the different points they look at, so they assess the average from that from all the readers of the X-ray that is submitted. So when the results come back an example with one of mine she is 3 on one side and 4 on the other for a total score of 7. So well under the breed average here and well under the range for breeding with, we look at as long as they are under the breed average for breeding with. If a dog is around the breed average or slighty higher then it's partner to be should be well under to put the two together. 
I also suspect in Australia if ALL the X-rays went in for scoring, the fair the downright bad and the good/excellant that the breed average would be higher then 17 here. Just wish someday all will submitt their x-rays to get a more better idea to how the breed is really evolving as far as the hips go. Most also here do the elbows as well, they are rated between 0 & 3 and OES should always have a score of 0-0 on the elbows for breeding with. Compulsory Microchipping now here and no screens/tests done without a microchip on the dog. That is checked and scanned to make sure it is the right dog for Hip evaluation or eye screens. Thyroid is not compulsory here but a lot do it as thyroid can be a problem in the breed. I do and so do a lot of others for peace of mind and making the right decisions. Deafness, no test here like the Baer, not a great problem here to warrant it to be compulsory. Eyes are done annually here starting from about 12 - 18 months of age and continuing on annually till 8 years old. At 8 you get a final clearance on eyes due to the fact that PRA can appear in that time frame, so no final clearance till at least 8 years old. A litter of pups can be evaluated early at 8 weeks by a vet eye specialist if there is a worry of Juvenile cataracts. So that is what happens here and also none of this is compulsory prior to breeding, but reputable breeders do all this to help the breed. I am hoping one day they will make it compulsory through the OES clubs here prior to breeding any litter. The more that participate in screening their stock the more information there is for everyones benefit and the future of the breed. |
| Hm...I did Mad's a bit here and there and not all at the same vet. but need to organize my messy files anyway and we have freezing rain so...not going anywhere I'll try to see what I can pull together this weekend, keeping in mind geographical difference, it still may give you some idea.
I did BAER, eyes and hearts for her entire litter (8!) but got a group discount on all of those and the eyes and cardiac tests are preliminary only and need to be redone, though the BAER testing, as noted, need only be done once, and her pups were done at 8 weeks. I understand you can even do them younger. I'll try to research the St Louis area for you - esp. since you have that nice new OES club down that way - to see if any local clubs are organizing health clinics - you can usually get a discounted rate. Typically for eyes, hearing and some times cardiac. OESCA had a thyroid clinic at the national this year, but very few people participated unfortunately. They are not the norm and it isn't inexpensive to have a full panel done. There is nothing to say you can't have this spread out over months. But I guess it would be kind of interesting to add up the costs, eh? Good for you for wanting to do this. I hope you share with Chewy's breeder - s/he should consider himself/herself very lucky to have a puppy owner who cares enough to do this. Kristine |
| Is it pretty fair to say though, unless you plan to breed the dog, these are not tests that you would, as an owner, normally do on a pet dog if they had not already been done? Presumably, the parents of your dog should've had a certain amount of these health clearances already and, at this point, the testing is done to act as a predictor (in a sense) for future litters, isn't it? I guess I'm thinking, by the time the puppy gets to you, you'd likely already have a good idea if the dog was blind or deaf. Heart defects, probably not, so that makes sense and hips are always good to get screened once they hit 2, too.
If you did do them on a pet, would it just be for your own satisfaction or, as Kristine said, to report back to the breeder? It sounds like the breeder would be the one to most benefit from the results. Admittedly, it's late and it's been a long day so there's a good chance I'm missing the obvious! |
infoseeker wrote: kristine,
Good intfo, I am looking to get the test run on Chewy when he is two years old. Nice to have a list. Any idea how much the full gambit of testing will set me back? (need to know when to start setting aside lol) OK, I've found some of my dog records. For current costs of submitting the various results to OFA, consult the www.offa.org site. You don't HAVE to submit, but you do the breed a favor when you do. I think you will find it will be something $35 for hips and elbows submitted together starting next year (or was that $40?), less for eyes, hearing, cardiac and thyroid. Hearing (BAER): I paid $61.00 to have Mad tested in late '05, but only $36 per puppy when I had her litter checked in '06 * this is a one time test. Chances are Chewy isn't bilaterally deaf or you would have noticed. He could be unilaterally deaf, which, frankly, since as I recall you don't intend to breed, is trivial to you. If you spend the money on this test, the pros are you only do it once and it could provide valuable information (good or bad, doesn't matter) for his breeder. The test can be performed on puppies which, for a breeder, is a wonderful thing, because you can do it yourself and don't have to beg your puppy people to do it for you or pass the added cost on to them. If he wasn't done as a puppy (not all breeders do this routinely as of yet), then you can do it at any age. Eyes (CERF): (like hearing, you look for a specialist - not just any vet can do this - to find vets who do this, ask around at breed clubs, training clubs, Chewy's breeder if s/he's local, anyone who breeds) This is something that can be done as puppies to rule out, say, juvenile cataracts, but needs to be redone periodically, and I *think* dogs should be 12 mos old before the OFA will accept submissions for inclusion in their database. I had Mad's litter done at 8 1/2 weeks to screen for juvenile issues, but they all need to be redone as adults, and if any are to be bred, redone before they are bred and then yearly and eventually every other year after a certain age, because there are inherited eye problems that can show up much later in life (see Lisa's post and the Australian requirements - very sensible). I'm fine with waiting to age two before getting this test done as an adult, unless there are other indications to suggest otherwise. To be honest, with Chewy presumable not being bred, if I was his breeder, I would be oh-so-grateful if you CERF'ed him at age 2, and then I wouldn't be at all upset if you never repeated it except if, heaven forbid, you started to suspect some eye problem. It's more than most puppy owners do and probably a bit on the anal retentive side, which it sounds to me that you are - just like me (and that's not intended as a slam, btw). I paid $40 for an individual dog exam last summer, but, and I can't put my hands on the invoice right now, I thought I paid slightly more this year. **both of these two tests are regularly offered as part of health clinics, which are really nice because (a) you may be able to have several tests done of the same day with no additional travel and (b) the testing costs tends to be less, due to the volume discount. Again, go to the OFA site (www.offa.org) to keep an eye on if a clinic may be offered near you. I don't see anything upcoming in Missouri in the near future, but you never know. Thyroid: OK, there is some controversy here. Some people use Dr Dodds (hemopet) and swear by her. As a breeder, I would go the OFA route and submit to an approved laboratory, probably MSU ( see http://www.offa.org/thyinfo.html) If you tell your regular vet you want an OFA thyroid panel done for submission, s/he should know what you are talking about. I think my regular vet may be a bit kind to me because she is an OES breeder and on the OESCA Health & Research committee and knows how darn important thyroid testing is inour breed, because she charges me less than $100 to do this (that includes OFA fees). I think I've been told people have typically paid around $130 for it. I could be wrong though. This is a BIGGIE in our breed and one you should consider doing for your own and Chewy's sake. I happen to know that my eldest girl's grandmother was diagnosed as hypothyroid later in life and all of my dogs go back to her, so I want my dogs done annually. Even every other year unless symptoms suggest otherwise would be great for a dog who will not be bred. You can start once the dog reaches sexual maturity. But I wait until age two and, again, take that as a baseline and go from there. If I was deciding what to spend money on and needed to choose, this one would be it...! Hips and elbows; I've searched and I can't lay my hands on Mad's bill right now, but it wouldn't be representative anyway, because I asked for hips, elbows, entire spine (baseline for spondylosis) and knees, because I was doing agility with her. I *think* I paid something like $400. I *think* $200 would probably be more in line with hips and elbows - oh, wait, Sunny are you there??? (She just had this done). Plus OFA fees? I refuse to have my dogs put under for this because I almost lost Mad that way and it just is no longer worth the additional risk to me. This may be a bit hearsay, but I'll risk lightening bolts from the sky and recommend that you ask around until you find a vet who routinely does OFA x-rays without putting them under. A good vet can still get quality x-rays and it just is not worth the additional risk in my way of thinking. Cardiac: Again, can't put my hands on the bills, but I think less than $50 ($40-45?) to have a cardiologist simply oscult (listen to) the heart for OFA certification - discounts per puppy when I brought in an entire litter (vet schools usually have board cert. cardiologists on staff or ask any Dobe, Boxer etc breeders you come across where they go). That is usually considered adequate and, again, if you do this at age two, his breeder should consider him/herself very lucky and it is probably a sufficient screening tool unless, heaven forbid, some vet decides some day that s/he is hearing something that needs to be checked out. I think I've paid $150-$200 for an echocardiogram which is the the more extensive exam, but not required for OFA purposes. OK, in addition, but not required for OFA purposes, yet possibly important for our breed: MDR1 (the multidrug or what is also known as the Ivermectin sensitivity gene mutation): See http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/ I had this done on Mad after her bad reaction to ketamine (it is so easy, you order the kit and you can do it yourself, it's just a cheek swab) Right now it costs $60 to test one dog. It's a one time test that gives you your dogs genetic status relative to this gene mutation. The dog will either come back: Normal/normal Mutant/Normal (a carrier, but still somewhat predisposed to drug sensitivies) Mutant/Mutant (affected - very predisposed to drug sensitivies This is important info for your own dog, but also potentially for his breeder's sake. Mad came back normal-normal and we decided just recently to test the dog I bred her to, because if he comes back normal-normal, there is no need to check their 8 puppies (Dawn - are you listening? I'll keep you posted). This does not have a high prevalence in OES, but they've seen some mutant/normal and mutant/mutant OES coming from the midwest non-show lines, and there is some concern as to how widespread it could be (or not). Just for my own dog's health (no breeding involved and no suggestion of anything wrong to make me want to pursue anything further), I would prioritize: Thyroid MDR1 and hips If I wanted to test for the whole shebang of what's available (in fact, with Mad, I did, and so was the dog I bred to, minus the MDR1 gene and I would ideally like her entire litter tested as well), the list would look like this: Hips Elbows CERF BAER OFA thyroid Cardiac MDR1 For inclusion in the CHIC registries ( http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=SD) you need to test and submit (regardles of results, it's the fact that the dog was tested that matters): hips, eyes and thyroid at a minimum Yes, Jill - that probably is excessive for your every day dog. But people willing to go that extra step are to be commended in my book. Then again, just two nights ago my dogs' vet called me "paranoid". So take it for what it's worth 
Let's put it this way: it can't hurt. Kristine |
| Oh no, don't get me wrong. I think, particularly if you have any reason to think your dog may have symptoms of any of these problems, by all means, get the tests. None of them are invasive so no harm done either way. My concern is always about unscrupulous vets who try to upsell tests like those to make money and, even worse, the uninformed owners who have no other resource to believe. I don't like when people get taken of advantage of. |
ButtersStotch wrote: My concern is always about unscrupulous vets who try to upsell tests like those to make money and, even worse, the uninformed owners who have no other resource to believe. I don't like when people get taken of advantage of.
Good point! But you average vet isn't going to expect your average pet person to want to do these tests just because (formally, at least). In fact, it can be hard to convince your average vet that you have no faith in the inhouse simple T4 test for thyroid... That's when you need to be an advocate for your dog, whether you go the Michigan State or Dr Dodds route. Kristine |
| I know that I didn't get over to the Thyroid testing at the National because I was so crazy busy. I really wish I would have been able to bring both dogs over and get them done. It definitely would have been better and cheaper there!!
I know that the East coast shows routinely run clinics for CERF and BAER testing at lots of shows. The past few years, the Harrisburg shows run a cardiac clinic. The full EKG was only $80 and it was a very reputable vet doing the testing. Those appointments filled up fast!! It does seem that since we have so many cluster shows around here that the opportunities for these types of clinics are greater. On that note, do you think we are seeing a difference in testing; amount, type and results, from different areas within our own country? |
Maxmm wrote: On that note, do you think we are seeing a difference in testing; amount, type and results, from different areas within our own country?
Wow - really good question, Mandy. In terms of the breed's next health survey, I've been working on demographics and I've really fought hard against geographic demographic questions even though OESCA would like to invite OES clubs around the world to participate if they'd like, and I'll explain why: the way semen is flying around these days, well, you know. It just gets so complicated. I bred to an import. If, god forbid, his puppies turn out to have say, eye problems, is that a midwest "issue" (where mom was bred and born), a Belgian issue? Where he was bred and born. Oh, but wait, he has English, Dutch and German lines, so is that a Euro-American issue or...? I don't want anyone to have an excuse to brush any issue aside saying (for example) "that's an Australian issue, we don't have to worry about that here in [fill in the blank]" - when most of those dogs' pedigrees were, perhaps, American. But I am darn interested in correlating health screening with health issues and you just threw a wrench in that and now I have to think this over again and ouch, ouch, ouch! My aching head...
Duluth, MN has a cardiac clinic every summer, though I don't know that it offers echos. I wish. I have a bitch who is equivocal and needs to be re-echoed at least yearly till we decide if it really is normal for her, or not. I just go to the vet school. We do NOT have a good array of health clinics in the midwest, save the cocker spaniel club (local) putting on one in Racine, WI every year for eyes, hearing and microchipping in March. I was just talking to the president of the Twin Cities OES club and she and I would both like to see a DNA collection clinic (for future research in general) at the Twin Cities and SE Wi regional specialties next year. I talked to a couple of the HRC members about this and they both seem to feel that health clinics may be better attended at the regional specialties. Don't feel bad about missing the thyroid clinic. I had a bitch who was due to be tested and the person who was in charge of it (Amy) was sharing a motel room with the dog (and me ) and we STILL never got it done.  Geez! Nationals are just nuts. Maybe regional health clinics are the way to go.
Kristine |
| Now I don't feel quite as bad about missing it! If you were rooming with Amy and you didn't get it done.
There is no thought of them not scheduling a health clinic at the National due to poor attendance, is there? I only ask the regional question because I'm interested in numbers; it's the geek in me. I also wonder if there is a difference in testing throughout the US. We know that there are the big 2 tests that everyone does and the other tests that the OESCA would like to see being done but who is really doing all of them? And is there one area that has more accessability to testing and therefor does more ancillary tests? |
Maxmm wrote: Now I don't feel quite as bad about missing it! If you were rooming with Amy and you didn't get it done.
There is no thought of them not scheduling a health clinic at the National due to poor attendance, is there? I only ask the regional question because I'm interested in numbers; it's the geek in me. I also wonder if there is a difference in testing throughout the US. We know that there are the big 2 tests that everyone does and the other tests that the OESCA would like to see being done but who is really doing all of them? And is there one area that has more accessability to testing and therefor does more ancillary tests? More good questions. Now you're really giving me a headache.
Yes, they are definitely thinking about not offering health clinics at nationals. This one wasn't bad, because Amy could do the collections and she donated, well, pretty much everything. But for cardiac, BAER, CERF etc we have to have a specialist, which means the club has to pay for it one way or another and for only five or so participants...No. The problem with offering CERF is that the dog's eyes have to be dilated. Do you really want to risk your showdog moving like a drunken sailor around the ring? Heck, no. And certainly not your peformance dog <splat!> So Amy thinks that would definitely not be a good one to offer. They have an excellent cardiologist they could use for MN, but how many OES people even test hearts? I don't know for sure, but I would suspect they're leaning against it. But considering asking the regional clubs to offer some clinics when possible as well? Or, even better, joining forces with other specialty clubs. That would work well in Wisconsin and Minnesota, I should think. As for regional differences, yes, I suspect there are some. Part of it is availability. I used to have to drive two hours for BAER (Chicago). Only an hour now that I moved. CERF and Cardiac are now within an hour's distance as well. It does help to live in a reasonably metropolitan area or reasonably close to a vet school. The other issue is what is the norm. I forever hear breeders say: "Well, I don't have that problem". "Uh, do you test? No? Then I guess you don't really know". My equivicol cardiac bitch is completely assymptomatic. She could live to be 14 and maybe she dies of congestive heart failure at the time, maybe not. But there's a decent chance I would never have known without stumbling into screening her and just thought, ah, old age. Whereas even if it is, as they are leaning towards now after three echos, indeed a "normal variant" for her, well, it's still not normal in the general sense and if you don't stay vigilant, five generations from now, oops! You have a problem and you think it came out of "nowhere", but it didn't really. Sorry, lecture over
I think part of the reason we probably see more testing in this area than in many others is (a) we were hard hit with CA - with both related and not so related dogs - and learned to talk about it openly, and that evolved to talking more openly with each other about other health issues as well, and if breeder A is testing for X,Y, Z, then even though my dogs aren't closely related to hers, I should be too. And then we share who to go to and so on. Oh, and three very outspoken HRC members live in WI (and then there are the ones that live elsewhere, but have our cell phone numbers ) and kick all of our butts regularly. ("Why aren't I seeing more of your dogs in the CHIC registry? What's wrong with you?? Get with the program!!" ) And I suspect that also holds true for parts of the East Coast. Which isn't a bad thing, really
There will be health screening questions on the health survey. There is a way of figuring out which geographic areas do more of what kind of testing. I'll run it by the rest of the sub-committee to see if they are geeky enough to want to know too
Kristine |
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