cruciate ligament rupture in both knees,plus hip displasia
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I'm so sorry you and your sheepie are going through this. 
Have the vets given you a prognosis if Duchess has the knee surgeries done? I adopted a 10 1/2 month old dog with hip dysplasia just over 2 years ago and while her hips are bad- http://oesusa.com/PandaXray1.jpg , she's done well so far. I guess I wonder if her knees are surgically corrected if it will allow her to build up the muscles in her hind quarters so she can be more mobile? It's something you need to speak with your vet about and then possibly get a second opinion from another vet experienced in this type of surgery. Quote: I don't have the money to get her a tplo repair. You might see if you can qualify for funding through CareCredit... they loan money for veterinary medical care and I think the first 18 months are with no interest... http://carecredit.com/vetmed/whycc.html Quote: Biggest problem is the love I already have in this dog This is what many low end breeders count on... that you won't be able to surrender the "defective" dog in order to get a "new" one. Problem with this type of guarantee is that you may very well get another dog from the same parents that already produced a dog with genetic defects. Some will do the ethical thing and end the breeding line by spay/neutering the parents... others won't. Quote: and the breeder does not even contact me anyway!
If nothing else, send a certified letter to the breeder with a return receipt signature card (the post office must get a signature for delivery) and keep a copy of the letter and mailing receipt/return card on file. If it's refused or the breeder doesn't respond, you may be able to seek some form of restitution in small claims court. (I am not a lawyer but this is what I would do.) Best wishes to you and Duchess~ |
| I'm so sorry you are going through this. I don't have any advice right now, but want you to know we are here for you. |
| I too have no advice...........but I am sorry you and Duchess must go through this and you both will be in my thoughts and prayers. |
| I am sorry, but you aren't alone! I just found out my Morgan has the beginning stages of hip dysplasia (at 2) and contacted his breeder to let her know. I got a breezy little thanks for the info note. Unfortunately I also contacted a person I knew had two dogs from this breeder to let her know. seems her older dog was diagnosed with severe hip displasia (at 18 months) a year and a half ago and she thought the breeder had contacted everyone else (the dogs all have the same sire). this made me angry enough to dig out my contract. it is clearly written to protect the breeder. while Morgan was sold as a show dog, the contract only insures against debilitating hip displasia at a young age and then the guarantee is - you guessed it a replacement puppy (from the same sire?)
SOrry but I wouldn't count on satisfaction from your breeder, very few have much to offer to protect the buyer. You bet I will make sure any other contracts have additional protections for me! |
In New York, regardless of what your contract says, you have very specific rights and remedies (according to several cases I've seen on The People's Court.  )
Check with your state website for New York puppy lemon laws. They may not apply in your circumstances, but ya never know. Also, if the breeder is in another state, they may have similar laws. |
| HD can be caused by many things genetic problems are only one of them, it can be caused by environmental aspects, even the new owner can be responsible in some ways. Breeding is a big responca ibility and should be taken seriously, this means it is our interests to know the hip-scores of all our puppies and react accordingly, I would never think about taking a dog back who had been diagnosed with HD unless the owner specificilly wanted this, then I have had one with HD D and I would never have returned him for all the money in the world, but I do think the breeder should help out financially where possible. I think your breeder should start taking the responsibilities for their mistakes and not shutting the door in your face and hiding away from the results of genetic problems they seem to have. Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo  |
dairymaid wrote: HD can be caused by many things genetic problems are only one of them, it can be caused by environmental aspects, even the new owner can be responsible in some ways.
I know we talk about heritability (% a disease or condition is thought to be inherited vrs environmental issues - temperament is another very interesting one), but I would have to say that bilateral CHD in a younger dog is rarely caused by anything but the underlying genetic predisposition (just like autoimmune issues). That is, it may vary in its degree of expression, and in some mildly affected dogs (in the case of CHD, who have never been x-rayed), you may never know it exists because the dog was never exposed to the "right" environmental stimuli. One difference could be a dog that suffered severe trauma to a hip - (I know of a few agility dogs of various breeds who have had a hip dislocated) that dog may eventually develop arthritic changes unilaterally that mimic CHD. The notion that it was somehow "caused" by the owner is a bit unfair in my estimation. Yes, there are environmental issues that may exacerbate the condition (dog is kept significantly overweight, no exercise, so no muscle tone, fed very high protein diet as a puppy that causes rapid and uneven growth rate.) But if you have a younger dog diagnosed with bilateral hip dysplasia I think it's pretty safe to say you are definitely looking at a genetic predisposition, the fact that it may fit all of the "triggers' above (fat etc) may have hastened/worsened the expression, but the bottomline is that the dog was predisposed. Same thing with so many of the autoimmune issues that plague the breed: yes, overvaccination and things like that may bring on some of the immune-mediated issues. But when you look at breeds and mixes as a whole (i.e. the general dog population) and realize that your breed has a, say, 10-20-30% higher rate of disease X than the general dog population, then you have to suspect a genetic or what is sometimes termed familial issue. I know it's kind of murky, but CHD is one of those areas our breed clearly has a problem - and as I'm sure you've noticed reading this forum: a significant one. The fact that breeders who screen religiously have many, many fewer and generally more mildly affected dysplastic puppies than breeders who don't tells us that this is something with a significant degree of heritability in our breed. And back to my begging/pleading mode to the American forum members at large: If you have an OES who was diagnosed with moderate to severe CHD, please, please consider participating in the study: January 19, 2007 Ostrander Hip Dysplasia Study Participants Wanted! As some of you may know, the Old English Sheepdog has been chosen to participate in a research study being conducted by the Ostrander Lab to locate the genes for hip dysplasia. They are looking for 20 unrelated dogs who have been diagnosed by OFA with Excellent hips, and 20 unrelated dogs who have been diagnosed with Moderate to Severe hip dyplasia by your vet, OFA or Penn Hip. Participation in this study requires a blood sample, 3 generation pedigree, and a copy of your dog's Hip x-rays. If OFA has the copy of your dog's hip x-rays, then a consent for release of the x-rays will need to be signed. If your dog generously gave blood for this study at the 2005 Centennial Show and was rated OFA Excellent or with hip dysplasia, contact Dana Mosher in the Ostrander Lab to complete the requirements of the study. If you have any questions, need to sign a consent form, need supplies for drawing blood samples, or to further discuss the study, please contact: Dana Mosher Samples Manager/Ostrander Lab - CGB/NHGRI/NIH Bldg 50 Room 5347, 50 South Drive, Bethesda, MD 20892-8000 Phone: 301-451-9390 - Fax: 301-594-0023 - mosherd@mail.nih.gov For additional questions, you can contact Amy Spaeth DVM at jacksonpethospital@charterinternet.net who is part of the OESCA Health and Research committee and has worked with Dana. Or PM me and I'll "introduce" you to her if you're shy
Though a pedigree on the dog is the ideal, Dana has been (gratefully) accepting contributions from dogs who have no known history. Wisconsin Rescue has contributed a couple of samples that way and I know Jaci's Panda (thank you!) has helped with the study as well. I have to run do some errands before all weather breaks loose here, but more on the ACL issues later. Those are tough conditions to have together, but depending on the degree of each, there may be some way of attacking some of this through conservative management. Kristine |
| Thanks for all the best wishes. I am exhaused thinking about how to fix this problem. I am taking her to see another specialist who will evaluate her condition. I have pet insurance but....of course it could be considered a preexisting condition since she has been suffering from lamness since she was six months old. VPI does not tell you if they will definately cover it until you have gone through the surgery and sent in for reimbursment. I feel like I am screwed anyway I turn. I love my baby to pieces but...money is not easy to come by. The icing on the cake is I also have to worry about the rehab time-I also have a 5mo old lab that plays-annoys Duchess constantly!
This forum has been a godsend for support and solutions. Thanks, Kate |
| Hi Kristine, I agree that in a young dog HD is probably a genetic fault, but and you said it yourself a dog who is overwight or does not become sufficent exercise are candidates for hip problems, if the owner is in this case not to blame then who is ?. Again of course a good breeder will give a feeding plan and a do's and don'ts list with the puppy. Please do not mis-understand, I am not trying to pass on the blame to a puppy owner, a first time owner should be educated properly concerning our breed and this is the responsibility of the breeder. I hope to breed with my bitch in the coming weeks and both her and the Sire are free from HD, I have also studied their pedigrees going back a few generations and I am sure I am making the right decision but there is no guarentee regarding breeding. Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo |
Quote: I have pet insurance but....of course it could be considered a preexisting condition since she has been suffering from lamness since she was six months old.
It looks like Cruciate ligament rupture is indicated on both of the VIP schedules of benefits under #2702. Can the vet tell you when the ruptures happened... if it was before or after the effective date of the policy? Maybe he saw her when she was fine and again after the ruptures occurred. The vet's statement will also play a part of whether the claim is accepted or denied so maybe he/she can give you more information. As Kristine has mentioned, if anyone out there has a dog with hip dysplasia and also has his/her pedigree, please consider participating in this study to find the gene responsible for this condition. It won't help our own sheepies but it might someday help prevent other OESs from suffering with this same condition. |
| Just to add some info to this post and I've also been in contact with Zulu by PM because we share the same breeder. Our breeder is no longer a member of OESCA.
The breeder did not OFA the dam due to whatever reason which was against the OESCA breeding ethics contract which she had signed to be on the OESCA "breeder referral" list. Checking against the pedigree, the sire was OFA'd with good hips, and I looked up the OFA's of all 4 of Duchess' grandparents and they all have ratings of either good or excellent through OFA. The breeder is aware of the hip dysplasia, the owner of the sire also knows about the hips, but Zulu should inform her about the ligaments. (As far as my knowledge, she has no internet right now, so she should be contacted her another way.) This was the first litter for Duchess' dam and she has not been bred again. I doubt the breeder will ever try to breed her again, due to producing a puppy with the hip dysplasia. The other puppies in this litter are healthy to my knowledge, but I have only heard that through the breeder herself, who I no longer trust to be truthful. Once again, Zulu, I am so sorry to hear about Duchess' condition. I truly hope that there will be some resolution for you. She's a young girl and it sounds like there might be a good outcome for the surgery, but you only know best since you are the one who is living with her suffering. |
6Girls wrote: It looks like Cruciate ligament rupture is indicated on both of the VIP schedules of benefits under #2702. Can the vet tell you when the ruptures happened... if it was before or after the effective date of the policy? Maybe he saw her when she was fine and again after the ruptures occurred. The vet's statement will also play a part of whether the claim is accepted or denied so maybe he/she can give you more information.
I was wondering about this too. If the vet can say the ligament tears were do to the fact that she's been using her legs differently due to her lameness, I wonder if the vet can work it so that she would at least be covered for this surgery. |
dairymaid wrote: Hi Kristine, I agree that in a young dog HD is probably a genetic fault, but and you said it yourself a dog who is overwight or does not become sufficent exercise are candidates for hip problems, if the owner is in this case not to blame then who is ?. Again of course a good breeder will give a feeding plan and a do's and don'ts list with the puppy. Please do not mis-understand, I am not trying to pass on the blame to a puppy owner, a first time owner should be educated properly concerning our breed and this is the responsibility of the breeder. I hope to breed with my bitch in the coming weeks and both her and the Sire are free from HD, I have also studied their pedigrees going back a few generations and I am sure I am making the right decision but there is no guarentee regarding breeding.
Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo You're exactly right, unfortunately - even with good screening and a nice history of it, there are no guarantees. We are talking about a condition that has a polygenic mode of inheritance and since we as yet (but some of you out there could help change that ) have no DNA test to identify the genes responsible for good or bad hips (genotype), we have to rely on x-rays (phenotype). But what we've seen here in North America and I know the case is the same in Europe too (and beyond) - in fact, I think routinely screening for elbow dysplasia is something that was started much earlier on your side of the pond  - is that screening significantly cuts down on the incidence and severity. That tells me we are definitely dealing with something genetic.
And while you're right again that feeding and exercising correctly *may* minimize the physical manifestations of CHD and that it is our responsibility as breeders to educate new puppy owners on this point, I still maintain that these dogs that develop CHD, whether fed/exercised properly or not, are predisposed - i.e. the genetic component is there. That's what makes the inclusion of these dogs in the study I keep harping about so invaluable. Plus, whether they knew about these things or not (feeding practices etc), I really don't want these puppy owners to think that on top of everything else they're dealing with, they caused their dogs bad hips - because, and I say this as a breeder (OK, one litter ), I honestly don't believe that to be the case.
Sorry, I know I'm a huge nag on this issue 
Kristine |
| Duchess is not over weight. I have not done any particular activity with her since her onset of her lameness at 6months. She is an active playful pup who compansates for her lameness. She hops and does not put much weight on her left leg since that is the more severe leg. Do you know how jealous I am when I see a dog being able to do whatever it wants to do for activity. I can't walk her. She is handicaped. One year ago this started. At that time I was a basketcase. The feelings ebb and flow about her condition. Now at 1.5 months old I am facing a huge financial leap. My heart and my logical brain seem to be going in opposite directions.
Once again..I am just desperate for a right direction to go in. Do I put her to sleep---that thought Just KILLS me!! My hands are tied. BTW I am located in Maryland if anyone has a specilist they have used and want to recommend... Thanks for letting me vent... Kate |
| Hi Kate, this conversation between Kristine and myself is not concerning your Dutchess it is over the general situation concerning HD and the need to talk about it openly. We all feel sorry for you and those of us who have faced this will know what you are going through. Hi Kristine, I think we have the same thoughts over this subject and I would really like to exchange opinions with you, I fell it is something we have to be honest about and not shut our eyes and try and forget that the problem is there. Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo |
| Did you check out the CreditCare option to see if you qualify for a loan?
If there's absolutely no way you can fund her surgeries but don't want to put her to rest, please consider placing her with OES rescue. I know this is would be a very difficult choice since you love her so much and want to keep her.  Grannie Annie with New England OES Rescue has taken in and placed dogs that required medical care and surgery. You might contact her to see if this is an option- http://neoesr.org/contact.htm
Please know that we all feel just terrible about this and hope you can find a solution. |
| OK, one thing at a time: probably the CCL ruptures first:
The greatest prevalence is, by the way, in spayed largebreed females. Some breeds have a higher than average rate of occurrence, but OES is not one of them at this point in time. I know my vet believes that early spay/neuter can be a contributing factor. Weight (excess) is another one. I presume they performed a "drawer" test to diagnosis this. How bad were her knees, is one worse than the other, and what type of surgery are they suggesting? Is your OES a candidate for the agility world team? No? Then even if they insist the more expensive and invasive TPLO is the only way to go due to her size (not true), you are generally perfectly fine going with the simpler surgery where they go in and reattach the tendons artifically. Not to scare anyone, but there's evidence of an increased rate of osteosarcoma following TPLO surgery which they don't like to talk about. Another reason to think twice about it. I have a younger, wild child (former agility) OES who was diagnosed as having a small, partial tear in her left knee. We opted for conservative management (no surgery). I know another OES agility dog who went the same route and last I heard was still doing fine. Both were unilaterals though, and you do a lot of PT, much of which you can do on your own with some guidance. I was told, for what it's worth, by her holistic/chiropractic vet to put her on a table spoon of Knox gelatin twice a day to help strengthen the ligaments/tendons. To be perfectly honest, and some vets may want to see my head on a platter for this one: even people who have had dogs with severe bilateral CCL injuries (usually if one tears, the other leg will give out eventually due to the added effort of compensating, and then add in CHD...yikes) have gone the conservative management route with equal to surgery results. Consider joining a yahoo group called http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cons ... anagement/ even if you opt for surgery (she may be a good candiate for it, nothing wrong with that, I would opt for it with a more significant and/or bilateral tear(s) - but you can still learn a lot). In either case - surgery or not - you are mainly waiting for scar tissue to form and take the place of the ruptured tendon as best it can. Orthopedic surgeons will try to scare you that arthritis will develop without surgery due to the lack of stability, but, honestly, some arthritis will result no matter what you do. There is also another great group (although I had to go no-mail after a while or I would be so depressed I'd need to be medicated - still, the collective experience there is amazing): http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodogs/ Surgery can speed it along, but there will be an extensive period of rehabilitation either route. Can you handle it? You may surprise yourself. The key in either case is to keep the joint moving to maintain mobility, and to maintain as much muscle mass as you possiby can, yet not let the dog get so wild she disrupts the surgical repairs and/or scar tissue formation. Weight issue: she needs to be as lean as possible. If she is at all overweight, cut her food back some and add in some canned no sodium added green beans - rule of thumb is twice the amount of beans that you cut her kibble by. The beans add bulk, meaning she's less likely to look at you like the evil witch of the west for "starving her". But the leaness is a must. Look to pictures of Jaci's "herd" to see what a well conditioned, lean OES looks like. She does an amazing job. We can all learn from her. Supplements are a big thing to combat the arthritic changes. Generally accepted amounts: Glucosamine: 20-35 mg/lb/day Chondritin: 16 mg/lb/day MSM: 45 mg/lb/day Ester C: 1000 mg x 2 times a day - this is per my holistic vet: he swears that Ester C is far superior to regular Vit C ** Salmon Oil (my holistic vet could care less whether I give this or not, but most people swear by it including my regular vet) - anyway, I've read: 1000 mg/20 lbs/day - make that 1000 mg/10 lbs/day for dogs who also have skin problems/allergies - that's the recommendation - I only give 1000 mg x 2 daily to all of my dogs, period. Maybe I should reconsider. Hm. Immune booster: 400 i.e. Vit E per day (do NOT go over on this - unlike excess Vit C which is water soluable and will be peed out pretty harmlessly, you can OD on Vit E and only a vet should recommend anything higher than that). The Vit E, Ester C and Salmon oil all have anti-inflammatory properties (as well as immune boosting properties) - arthritis is by definition a process of inflammation. Vets will try to sell you glucosamin products for canines and many of these are wonderful products, qualitatively (you do have to be very careful what products you use, not because some are dangerous, but because the nutraceutical market is not well-regulated and not all products are created equal in terms of purity, i.e. effectiveness). I've found them to be prohibitively expensive with a large herd of dogs, and also, the amounts of the various ingredients you should be giving don't add up. Still, the Cosequin product is suppposed to be excellent and there are some other excellent ones as well. Your call. Two routes to go that are not terribly expensive, yet have been rated well qualitatively (I hope this still holds true!) is the Spring Valley brand, which is carried by Wal-Mart (I know, shocker, right?) and also I believe Costco carries a good product. Haven't looked into it too closely since I don't have one close to me, but I believe others on the forum have had good success. <Input?> Since she is probably in pain, I would (contrary to my holistic vet's belief, but probably closer to my regular vet) want to consider an NSAID AT A LOWER THAN full strength rate. Why? You want the edge off the pain, but not so much that she feels so good that she loses common sense (selfpreservation) and hurts herself. Regular ascriptin is another option, but now I'm really heading into dangerous territory: you need to consult your vet (s). All this just my experiences etc. and should be run by your vet(s) and so on in any event. But that is a lot of bad news flung at you at once. Take a deep breath and start doing your own reserach and you'll start to get a batter feel for what you can/want to do. That's a whole lot to deal with, but she's young, you obviously love her, and you can take this one step at a time.
Kristine |
| Wonderful information Kristine |
| Kristine,
Thanks for the options. It helps when someone else knows something shares it. The tplo was the recommended way to go but I need to get more information after getting more education in what is out there for Duchess.Thats why I am so upset-I don't know enough about what to do to make the best choice. kate |
dairymaid wrote: [Hi Kristine, I think we have the same thoughts over this subject and I would really like to exchange opinions with you, I fell it is something we have to be honest about and not shut our eyes and try and forget that the problem is there.
Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo [/color]I would love that! And in addition, I bred to an import (European). Some of his lines go back to some of the lines behind your girl, but he has Dutch, English, German, Belgian lines. You get the drift. I'm forever trying to figure out things like what are the different testing requirements in each country (not just the one he'd from ) And what do the results mean.
So as to not clutter this topic, I'm starting a new one shortly. Lisa from Australia has already been a great help and hopefully other non-US breeders will be willing to chime in. As you say, I think we're already on the same page and I would love to discuss it further. Kristine |
| Two things to add after digesting all this in the middle of the night!
1 - I use the Spring Valley brand of supplements from Walmart and have been very pleased with them. The ones I have are the Glucosamine/Chondroitin with MSM, Flaxseed Oil, Fish Oil and VitaminC (I haven't switched to the EsterC - probably next time I need to get more) I did by the flavored chewables of the Vit C and they seem to eat it better. 2 - On the rehab vs surgery option: I have a friend in basset rescue who's basset is the same age as my Simon - in fact they have the same birthday. They are both 8 yrs old now. When her Buck was 6 1/2 he tore his ACL. After many discussions with vets - regular and holistic - she decided to go the non-surgical route. The cost was 1 factor, also was the fact that none of the surgical vets could guarantee he wouldn't develope as much (if not more) arthritis after the surgery as he would have without the surgery. Using PT, hydrotherapy done mostly at home,. and several different wrapping techniques, Buck has made a FULL recovery. It took over a year, but he is walking and running and has no limp at all. Just to let you know of a success story I personally know of and watched the progress on. It really is a viable option! |
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