Georgia breeder question
By the way, I just found this site yesterday and you are all very informative! I have learned a lot. Thank you! Holly |
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| both of my dogs were shipped. |
| To find a good breeder, you may very well have to go out of state. Most reputable breeders will ship to you. I know it's tough when you'd like to meet the puppies first, but at least you know that when you're dealing with someone recommended by the OESCA, you're guaranteed a good pup that the breeder will stand by in case there are complications. Please don't be in a hurry to get a pup from someone because they have some available and they're close by. A good, quality pup is worth the wait and will save you lots of money in the long-run when you don't have to worry about health or temperament problems. |
| Holly -
Please take the time to read through the forum for the threads on what to look for in a breeder and I'm sure you'll find LOTS of helpful information. Most importantly, please do not base your decision solely on the location of the breeder. Frequently, you have to travel a good distance or wait until a reputable breeder is having puppies. I know it can be frustrating when you're anxious and ready to have the puppy now, but you will be so glad you waited when you get a healthy puppy with a great temperment from proven lines. It is worth being patient & doing your research.  |
| Thank you. I think I'll contact some breeders in the states close to me. I have read a lot of the posts here and I assume you all are saying it's not a good idea to buy from anyone other than those who the OESCA has recommended. I already knew the mill puppies could be dangerous but I thought maybe a regular breeder was okay. I know it is better to get an OES who has championship bloodline but is it absolutely necessary?
Holly |
| At the risk of getting people upset, championship bloodlines alone do not mensure a healthy puppy that is right for you or your family. You need to verify health stats on the parents etc as well. 20 percent of the OES who have been screened for hip problems and reported the results to OFA have some hip issues. this is not a breed without risks. |
hollygolightly wrote: Thank you. I think I'll contact some breeders in the states close to me. I have read a lot of the posts here and I assume you all are saying it's not a good idea to buy from anyone other than those who the OESCA has recommended. I already knew the mill puppies could be dangerous but I thought maybe a regular breeder was okay. I know it is better to get an OES who has championship bloodline but is it absolutely necessary?
Holly A championship bloodline tells you a lot more than that the dog was just a show dog. You know that the dogs parents were structurally sound (which can cut down on a lot of possible health problems in the future) and temperamentally sound, which is ultra important, especially in a dog that you plan to have around kids. A good breeder breeds specifically for those traits and studies the pedigrees of the dogs that he or she breeds to get the best possible match, in turn, giving you the best possible puppy. The physical looks come into play as well, but often times, the physical looks of a dog also make a difference in the health of a dog. For example, a dog with out-turned feet in the back could have joint problems from the unequal distribution of weight on his ankles for a lifetime, which is why it's important for the feet to face forward. (there are many more reasons that more experienced people can give you, I'm just tossing that out!) Reputable breeders breed because they love and want to preserve the breed, not just to make a quick buck. They do genetic and health testing. Yes, they're a business, but it's a business with passion behind it so they take a lot of care and thought in their breeding and in the homes that they place puppies with. Nothing is 100%, but a reputable breeder will stand behind a puppy with health complications, work with you and make sure that you got the best puppy you could get. |
| Also, to help you understand a bit better from a reputable breeder's perspective, here is a great thread Ali posted recently.
http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=14569 |
| I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "regular breeder".
Do you mean not a breeder with champion lines and not a puppy mill breeder? Shellie |
| The person that you mention is NOT a member of OESCA and looking at the AKC site, she doesn't provide any health screenings, guarantees, or any conditions that she will take back the dog if something happens to you. The AKC breeder classified is very misleading. The checklist is there, and one might think you are getting everything included, but she only answered "yes" that she would provide AKC registration. Personally, I would steer clear.
If you contact a few OESCA ( http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica.org ) breeders in the neighboring states, they might be able to help you track down a puppy, or who will be breeding in the next few months. Not all OESCA breeder members are listed in the referral section, some choose not to because they don't breed very often. There was a new breeder just added in the referral section for MI. Maybe she wants to be listed because she is planning a breeding soon, but I really don't know for sure... |
| Yay!! Another OESCA breeder in Michigan
I believe my husband had talked with her about 4 years ago when we were searching for our very first full-sheepie but she didn't have any pups at the time. It's great to see she's a member of OESCA now... though it will be years before we search for another pup  |
| My pup was shipeed from Ontario, Canada to Los Angeles with no problems. It isn't too expensive to fly them out. It is a good idea to also look for a breeder who is actively showing, that way you know they are serious about improving or keeping their dogs up to OES breed standards and also doing all the proper testing. |
| Holly, Gail Swails in fairly close to you........ she has Shaggeybark OES. Gail used to be a member of OESCA and breeds very nice healthy dogs.
you can contact her at shaggybarkoes.com. |
| Thank you everyone and thank you Ali. I will contact her. |
| Have you tried Roland from Keepsake? His forum name is zach, he's a great guy and has a beautiful line. You can pm him, if you'd like to see pictures just click on his camera. I know he's in GA, I believe near Alphretta(SP?). |
| Thanks Holly, that was nice!
I'll be happy to help this Holly or just chat with her. Holly, You are more than welcome to write or call me (Roland) or my wife Diane. We live just north of Alpharetta. I won't be home until next Tuesday however. I'm sure we can head you in the right direction and we always love talk'n bout OES. Roland Zacharias zach4460@bellsouth.net 770-889-9413 Home |
| Just a note: I don't have pups Ron so this isn't an advertisment lols.
zach |
zach wrote: I'm sure we can head you in the right direction and we always love talk'n bout OES
He isn't kidding, we've had phone conversationa that lasted for hours |
| Who are you? lols |
zach wrote: Who are you? lols
The mouth  |
| lmao thx |
| When I read your first post, Roland, I was like "Hey! He's got puppies? He said he'd tell me! He said he'd tell me!" Then I read your second post. Crisis averted on all counts. I was already trying to figure out how much crying I was going to have to do to weasel another puppy in the house, not to mention training another puppy during a Michigan winter. You just made my husband's day without doing anything, lol! |
| How funny Jill! You've got me in tears lmao. That poor guy. |
 !!!HEY!!!
NO ADVERTISING NON-EXISTENT PUPPIES!!!  |
| Holly I am visiting/living (undecided) northern Ga. I am almost sure there is OESCA breeder located in Highlands N.C. only 30 minutes from where I am staying. It very well could be the breeder that Ali is speaking of. Go to OESCA and click breeder and then North Carolina. I know nothing about this person but I am pretty sure he/she is registered with the OESCA. |
| Gail is in Richmond, VA. |
| Hi Holly, to give you an idea of what we have undertaken before we even started thinking about breeding with our bitch. We have shown her about 200 times, she was hip scored at 15 months, she had her eyes tested every year to make sure there are no illnesses, in Germany we have to have all dogs which are intended for breeding evaluated by a judge, we have to visit seminars at least once every two years and for the first litter our club choose a god-kennel to help you. I think this is a good idea and ensures that the new breeders become much needed help. My girl is a multi champion, but this does not ensure good puppies that is in the hands of god we can only do our best by using dogs that are free of HD, are eyes clear etc. Holly choose a puppy very carefully and do not be afraid to ask questions, if you travel to a breeder ask to see all the documentation and look over the puppies very closely, check if they have dirty bottoms that may be a signal for diarreah which can be serious for a puppy, check the breeding bitch for any signs of illness and have a look at the surrounding area, eg in the garden if it is cleaned regulary. I always run my finger through the water bowl to see if is cleaned before fresh water is added and I could go on and on. Holly we wish you luck and we know in the end you will have made the right choice. Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo  |
| Been out of town on a QUICK visit................... do you know it's colder in LA than it was in Colorado today?
Gail Swails is no longer a member of OESCA but is still a quality breeder of OES........ over the past 6 years or so many people became disenchanted (for lack of a better word) wieth OESCA and let their memberships go............ But I can say I have known Gail for 15 years and she has healthy quality dogs........... and I do know she does have some pups available as she just sent me a message....... |
hollygolightly wrote: Thank you. I think I'll contact some breeders in the states close to me. I have read a lot of the posts here and I assume you all are saying it's not a good idea to buy from anyone other than those who the OESCA has recommended. I already knew the mill puppies could be dangerous but I thought maybe a regular breeder was okay. I know it is better to get an OES who has championship bloodline but is it absolutely necessary?
Holly One pet peeve I have about some of the puppy mills or backyard breeders is that they will boast "Champion Bloodlines". Then, when you see the pedigrees, there is 1 Champion 5 generations back. People who don't know think that means they are getting a quality pup, since it has "Champion Bloodlines". This bugs me like you would not believe. In my opinion the only people that could honestly boast about that are people who actually regularily show all of their breeding stock to their Championships before breeding. |
Blueshire wrote: Thank you I think I'll contact some breeders in the states close to me. I have read a lot of the posts here and I assume you all are saying it's not a good idea to buy from anyone other than those who the OESCA has recommended. I already knew the mill puppies could be dangerous but I thought maybe a regular breeder was okay. I know it is better to get an OES who has championship bloodline but is it absolutely necessary?
AMEN Amber! People don't want to do the homework necessary. And they hear 1500 for a pup or 2000 for a pup.......... OH MY but I can get a CHAMPIONLINE from so and so for 700........... So, why do i waste my time and money for more? Well let me tell you why folks........ what you don't pay for now you WILL end up paying for down the road in the long run on vet bills. I guarantee you........and as hard as hard as this may be for some to admit, this is almost surely where most of the Reputable breeders started from!! I know i did back in the early 70's! As will other reputable breeders on this list! To breed and raise a puppy and take it to it's championship status (sometimes in more than one country) is NOT cheap! Before You breed a puppy, the pedigrees have been studied and other breeders consulted on this prospective breeding and now if you owned both of it's parents (they had to come from somewhere) to ($$$). If not you have a stud fee (usually the cost of one puppy or it can be puppies back anywhere from 1 to 3 or more), you have the tail docking, ($) the shots definitely 1 set sometimes 2.($$), Food........ then you have the training fees for classes............ ($$) then you have entry fees($22-25 on up per dog per show, hotel fees, traveling fees, grooming supplies, food..... wear and tear on your vehicle to get to and from these shows...($$$$$$$$$)........and you have to repeat THIS over and over until you achieve the Championship........ Then when the dog is 2 years old, you have OFA, BVA, or whatever Country you are in for Hip Clearances. ($$$) and more vaccinations ($) and teeth cleaning($).......Eye Clearances($)........ and finally we are back to breeding Fees ($$$)!!! And a breeder that puts their heart, blood and soul into doing this breeding and puppies........ you may end up with a C Section ($$$$$) or you may even lose the bitch or some puppies due to problems (----$$$) You definitely lose sleep and for those who work lose $ as they have to take time off of work! and you have come full circle. THIS IS A REPUTIBLE BREEDER!!! Not just someone who thinks "OH i love this breed and want to let my oes have a litter so others can do so too" They feel 500 or so is plenty to ask for their pups because EVERYONE should be able to afford an OES....... THEY haven't done any of the testing or showing to different judges to PROVE their dog/bitch is WORTHY of carrying on the breed!......... They have NO IDEA what health problems may be in back of their foo foo...... they just love it and feel others should have one too............(BOO HOO) in the long run THESE are the ones that will end up in the pounds or costing the non suspecting new family owners a LOT of $$$ in the long run. Not to mention broken hearts. So please, PLEASE I beg you. DO your homework. BUY from a reputable breeder one who has done all the clearances, who if not presently a member of a Parent Breed Club (OESCA or Whatever Country they are from), someone who has taken the love of this breed literally TO HEART and DONE the work required to make sure YOU get a healthy dog that will last you many years to give you the love you are willing to give it!! |
| hey all;
I've been reading the forum the lat few days or so when I came across this thread this afternoon. I'm getting two of Jackie Drumm's pups. I did a fair amount of research, and knew the risks of going with a breeder like Jackie. But I went to her home, got to see and interact with her litter as well as with the dam and sire. She also has a Golden Retriever at her home, and I saw healthy dogs that were well socialized and happy. That made me feel alot more confident. I've since been going by her place once a week to visit with my pups, and they are growing nicely and seem well socialized. I know that dealing with a registered breeder would give me certain "guarantees", but the truth is if at 2 years old my dog had health issues, I wouldn't trade it in for a new model. If my child had a health issue develop, I'd have to deal with it. That will be my plan for my furry children as well. Could i have gotten a better line of dog from a registered breeder? Perhaps. But I wasn't in the position to pay up to $2000 for a pup, nor do i have any intentions of breeding or showing my dogs. I decided I liked what I saw when I went to visit Jackie, so I'm taking the risk. Just my thoughts; Allison |
| It's not about wanting to breed or show your dogs or the replacement dog "guarantees". It is about whether the breeder is doing everything she/he can to ensure the betterment of the breed. Quality sheepdog pups from reputable usually start in the $1500 price range. I hope the price you saved in the beginning, doesn't cost you later in vet bills, because the breeder didn't do simple health tests to help ensure your pup will be healthy. |
| i hope so too. Like I said, I did my research, and I'm aware of the risks. I have my vet appointment already scheduled for the day I pick up my dogs.
When I was a kid; we had an OES that my mom decided to breed. Our dog had AKC papers, and my mother and father went to a great deal of trouble to find a suitable mate, flying our dog from New Jersey to the Boston area to mate her. Once the litter arrived, my mother fed them and cared for them in the most spectacular manner. And she wasn't AKC registered as a breeder, but wanted to have the experience of having a good litter of pups. One of those pups went on to be the founding dog of an AKC regsitered breeders kennel. Is Jackie Drumm doing everything my mom did? I don't think so. But it doesn't mean she doesn't care, and from my visits I can say she certainly isn't a puppy mill. Her dogs all seemed healthy and well cared for. They loved playing with people and had really lovely temperments. Her family members all play with the pups. The adult OESs at her place as well as the Golden Retreiver were smart and responsive and affectionate; all the things I hope to have in my dogs. NO dog is a sure fire winner; all have the risk of having health problems or temperment issues. If I went with a reputable breeder, I'd have a guarantee that I could return my dog if there was an issue. But I know me; I'd never return a pet like that. I'd grow too attached to do it. I know that many of you will think I'm making a stupid mistake. I've got the money for a more expensive dog. Its not about saving a few dollars. I liked Jackie's litters, and I fell in lvoe with two of her little pups. So I'm going to bring them home and make them mine and love them dearly. |
| You don't have to defend yourself... this often happens. People see and hold a puppy and can't leave without buying one. It's actually a shame all puppies come in such cute packaging because very little "marketing" is ever required to sell them.
The Old English Sheepdog is a breed known to have health issues that can be mild to life threatening. I'm sure your pups will vet check just fine... most do. It's later when hereditary problems usually appear. Every one of my OESs have issues and they are now 3 and 4 years old. From low thyroid (3 of them) to allergies (3 of them) to hip dysplasia, a bladder defect that required surgical correction... one has a cleft palate and is blind. The lady that traveled with Kaytee from the breeder had lost two OESs by the ages of 2 and 4 years due to auto immune problems. Just reading the health section is an eye opener for many people searching for an OES. It hopefully makes them think twice about purchasing an OES from someone who fails to test their dogs prior to breeding. Just reading about the person in the following thread and her struggle about whether to euthanize her 16 month old OES or how she can fund her surgeries that might allow the dog to have a more pain free life is enough to make anyone cry- http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=17126 These pups are in existence... they will need a home. I hope you will make the commitment to keep them no matter what and are able to financially afford surgeries and medical care IF they should need it. It's something every owner should consider before purchasing or adopting a dog let alone two. I strongly suggest you immediately purchase the best health insurance plan through someone like the AKC or ASPCA if you would be unable to afford a $2,000 or $5,000 surgery or conditions that require repeated treatment (I give two of mine allergy shots costing around $150 per vial x 4 vials). But note that hereditary conditions such as hip dysplasia are often excluded from coverage and that wouldn't show up for months and months. I imagine cerebrial ataxia would also be excluded because it's hereditary?? (Is it true that this is a relatively new condition in OES??) We've collected a few thousand dollars from the AKC plan and got the insurance when Emma and Darby were just little pups. Good luck to you... as with all OES puppies, they're all adorable. |
| This is coming from someone who purchased 2 puppies from a BYB almost 4 years ago...
I've seen good breeders continue to talk themselves blue in the face with only a few buyers listening. Common sense goes out the window when people get to actually hold a live puppy. Quality breeders need to find a way to set themselves at a higher standard, well away from the BYBs. The only way I can see this happening is through educating the public so they can comparison shop. If the public doesn't know what goes into a quality puppy, there's no standard with which to compare a good quality pup to one from a BYB or puppymill. There must be all kinds of ways to do this in an attempt to better the breed... comparison photographs of a BYB pup compared to a quality pup... about how some BYBs and mills improperly dock tails leaving the dog with a stump (Panda's nickname is "stumpie"), etc. Include details on all the testing that goes into the parents before breeding ever takes place and why it's done. Good breeders don't need to actually sell their dogs online, just come up with a set of standards that good breeders meet and that you know BYBs and puppymills will never even come close to in producing a healthy, happy pup. Basically all people have to compare is pricing... all Old English Sheepdogs are adorable so you need to make people think with their heads rather than their hearts. It's a tough task. |
| AKC does not register you as a breeder. In the USA you are not registerd. ANYONE can call them selves a breeder. Unlike Canada. You Register your Kennel name there. |
| I've had OES's before, though its been years and years. I am aware of the potential health issues, and am prepared to make the commitment to care for my dogs. I think you are right; every dog needs a home; and these are the ones I'll be providing one for.
I have a cat that has had serious health problems since about the second year I've owned her, so expensive visits to the vet are no stranger to me. And I've already begun looking into health insurances, knowing about the particular diseases that plague Sheepdogs. I appreciate your personal stories; hopefully it will help me to pick an insurance plan. I REALLY battled internally over what to do about puppies; I was in contact with several breeders, and with Jackie Drumm. In the end, I said what you did; these dogs are now in the world and will need a home. A reputable breeder will have no trouble placing thier dogs. I went with these pups because they were sweet and they were right here in Atlanta. Not the greatest reasons, but you are right, once they wiggle up to you and crawl into your lap, how do you put them back? Its why I have two, instead of the one I planned on getting! I wanted to join this forum to share my excitement over being back in the OES community after being gone for too many years. I don't want to feel bad about picking my puppies from a BYB. I just want to share cute photos, advice about foods and toys, and maybe even meet other OES owners in the ATL area that would ike to have fun romp days at the park. Please don't judge me or my dogs for my decision about where I got them. I'm a nice person, and I'm sure my dogs will grow to be really sweet well behaved pups! (they better; I already have them enrolled in puppy school!) Maybe they won't win any prizes, and maybe they will suffer from OES ailments due to less than discretionary breeding. But if that is the case, I will be ready to care for them the way any parent cares for a sick child. I'm going into this KNOWING that may be what I'm up against. |
| Just realize one thing....breeders who do not breed for the right reasons count on people falling in love with the puppies, or in the case of puppy mills, people feel sorry for the pups, and as you said, every puppy needs a home, so they figure they are "saving a life" so to speak. But what people don't realize is that you are opening up another space for that breeder to breed again and again. I do not know this breeder you are getting your pups from, but in my opinion at the very very bare minimum, both parents should have health clearances through the official registries. Whether you want a "show pup" or a companion, I believe only the best examples of the breed should be bred in every aspect. Health, conformation, and temperment. And even when I breed two Champion dogs with all their health clearances, I'll tell you right now not every pup in their litter is up to my standards to reproduce.
If people would stop buying from BYBs and mills, they would be forced to not breed anymore. But they will continue to thrive and do an extreme injustice for our breed as long as people can continue to keep them in business because "every pup needs a home". Just my opinion. |
| Hi Nita,
For the record, Ch Windfield Katie Lynn was actually our 1st bred by. Roland |
| I have a question to the good breeders out there... maybe there's no real solution but...
Who's actually taking time to put the information out there about how to properly purchase a quality puppy? I've seen only one page on the OESCA website. The AKC doesn't help... many people falsely believe that just because a dog is AKC registered it means it's a quality dog which is SO far from the truth. How many future OES owners know about the forum or OESCA? I learned about both only after I purchased my first OESs. Many of us don't purchase a dog for 10 or 15 years so there is no learning curve to rely on. One day the beloved dog dies and it's immediately time to find a new one to fill that void. We don't live a life devoted to building a better breed... we just want to share our lives with a good sheepie. In no way is someone saving a dog by purchasing from a BYB... if you want to save a pup, wait until he/she is dumped in a shelter or rescue. And just because someone is "nice" and the house and puppies are clean, it says nothing about what could be lurking in the genes... this is why pretesting is one of the important things to ask about including the RESULTS of the tests. I personally would never purchase from a BYB again knowing what I know now but I can understand why many do. Price, availability and how readily accessible they are. I can understand both sides of this. There are so many people who just don't have the information needed to make an informed choice and others still who choose to ignore it. I'm all for educational websites. If good breeders could get their message out there, more people might be able to make more informed choices on how to purchase a well bred OES. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: I know that many of you will think I'm making a stupid mistake. I've got the money for a more expensive dog. Its not about saving a few dollars. I liked Jackie's litters, and I fell in love with two of her little pups. So I'm going to bring them home and make them mine and love them dearly. Yes, I think you are making a mistake.However, that doesn't mean you aren't welcome here, or that your dogs are "bad dogs" or any such thing! It's about supporting breeders who do things that further the health of the breed and not supporting breeders who don't do everything humanly possible to produce the healthiest dogs possible. That said, I hope your dogs will be wonderful, you'll have pages and pages of antics to share in raising two (OMG!) pups at once, and will be the best parent there is. Darth Snuggle wrote: I wanted to join this forum to share my excitement over being back in the OES community after being gone for too many years. I don't want to feel bad about picking my puppies from a BYB. I just want to share cute photos, advice about foods and toys, and maybe even meet other OES owners in the ATL area that would like to have fun romp days at the park.
Please don't judge me or my dogs for my decision about where I got them. I'm a nice person, and I'm sure my dogs will grow to be really sweet well behaved pups! My dog is not from a "reputable breeder" too, and he's a great/super dog in a lot of ways, but I would recommend that nobody buy a dog from his breeder. oes.org is kind of like a community of parents of older children. We try to steer people in what we believe to be the right direction, but they are free to choose their own path. Just like a parent, we will still be here and still love you after you've made your decisions. |
Quote: Who's actually taking time to put the information out there about how to properly purchase a quality puppy? I've seen only one page on the OESCA website. The AKC doesn't help... many people falsely believe that just because a dog is AKC registered it means it's a quality dog which is SO far from the truth. How many future OES owners know about the forum or OESCA? I learned about both only after I purchased my first OESs. Many of us don't purchase a dog for 10 or 15 years so there is no learning curve to rely on. One day the beloved dog dies and it's immediately time to find a new one to fill that void. We don't live a life devoted to building a better breed... we just want to share our lives with a good sheepie. Hi Jaci, there are a few questions in your quote above I would like to answer, Q) Who's actually taking time to put the information out there about how to properly purchase a quality puppy? A) The breed club's will answer any questions a future owner may have and steer them in the right direction as this is in their interests, also with the thought of gaining new members. Q) How many future OES owners know about the forum or OESCA? A) Although the forum is a great place to discuss all topics concerning the breed, I do not think we should try and take over from the breed clubs concerning the recommending breeders. Unfortunately those people fall into a trap, just like we did many years ago by seeing a lovely ball of woll and taking him home with us. Breed clubs do not normally advertise in magazines as they are available to give advice at most registered dog shows. Also no club can give advice concerning the health of life expectancy of a dog as there are so many things can influence these things, I agree bying a dog from a club member is no guarantee that it is a better dog, you have to keep your eyes open and evaluate the surroundings yourself. Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo |
| To give you an idea what a champion dog costs before they are used for breeding. Purchase price in Europe: 1000 - 2000 € Feeding assuming you are in a breeders club: 450 € (yearly) Vet bills: 100 € (yearly) Health checks for breeding: 200 € (1 off) 40 € (yearly) Club membership: 50 € (yearly) Advertising in breed journals: 150 € (yearly) Dog shows: German champion titles: entered 30 shows. 1200 € Spanish Champion title: entered 8 shows 240 € Gibraltar Champion title entered 4 shows 200 € Danish Champion title enteres 12 shows 500 € Expenses for the above ran about 8000 € All in all we gave out a small fortune to gain the Multichampion but in the long run we fell it is worth the effort, by the way our bitch has never received anything less than an excellent at any show and we have shown under many different judges, we are quite sure she is champion quality. Hugs from all at Tikki-ti-boo |
| Darth Snuggle:
As you can see from the amount of posts, I am a newbie to this forum and to purchasing from a reputable breeder. In the beginning, I spent hours on different websites, searching kennels, getting any information I could. It wasn't easy, but once I found this forum I was able to find the perfect pup for me from a (very) highly respected breeder. I have never had a quality pup... I am from Missouri...the puppymill,BYB capital of the world...NOT many quality breeders in THIS area. In the past, I have purchased - c Cocker spaniel, no health checks, lovely dog (very bad allergies) until she was 5 years or so...then one day she had multiple seizures, right in front of me and the kids and died right there! I too would have done anything for "Aanie"....there was NOTHING I could do. My next dog was a bloodhound..from Petsmart...at about 4 or 5 she became aggresive...........and with kids....need I say more? Next-- a Human Society adoption----I lucked out bigtime..Bearded Collie...Millie--- was the BEST dog and my original therapy dog lived to 14!!!! I got Pearl, my OES from the Human Society, also...neglected, abused..but I think she was from a quality breeder because, with love and tenderness, she became a therapy dog and is very healthy at 9 years old. Next problem dog, Cosmo...I too visited about 3 times and every visit, he was happy, outgoing,...took him home and boy does he have ISSUES. But he is mine and we will deal with all of them. These dog weren't cheap....and I too was willing to do everything and anything to insure a long healthy life no matter what problems ...but sometimes, there is nothing that can be done, due to bad genetics. I now have Heart, the OES from a quality breeder. She is with me every step of the way. I can call her, day or night with concerns, problems, funny stories...as she put it in the very beginning........ Quote: this is a marriage..and we are in this together!!!!
The price was more than I had planned, but I felt that with all the testing, time,etc. It was worth it. I needed a quality pup....not because of what they looked like............I needed an even tempremented, stable dog. ----Heart will be a therapy dog within the next 15 months. I just wanted you to know what problems I had in the past........not to sway your decision, just so you are aware. Welcome to the site....your pups are so cute........... |
| The first question to ask a breeder is "Why?"......If they are not showing their dogs and testing thier breeding stock then they are not bettering the breed. The only thing left is for the money.
So when buying a puppy from a breeder who does not test their stock for genetic problems, you are supporting the continuation of those problems, and the pain and suffering of the innocent resulting puppies....And at the same time paying the person for doing that. As long a a puppy buyer knows exactly what they are doing and willing to live with that...that is thier choice. Their own puppy might be fine, but there is no PROOF that the parents and other resulting puppies, or even the siblings that were also sold for the almight dollar, didn't have problems. And then those puppies can re=produce etc etc..... They are all well hidden away. thebWhy is t |
| Alison (Darth Snuggle),
I had a completely different experience with the parents. I visited because I just wanted to see for myself if the parents were well maintained and maybe the posters here were wrong and I have to say everyone here was right. The parents' fur was stained orange from the mud and they look bad. Jackie had two mothers having two different litters to sell right now. She did not take me to see where the mothers were being kept (bad sign, right?). The tails on the younger litter were not docked correctly. I have never owned an OES, but I could see the tails were two long. They were longer than the older litter's tails. I have never been around an OES before, this was my first experience so I do not know how they are supposed to act as adults but the parents seem attention deprived. The father was afraid of people and everything else too. He jumped with fright at a small noise he heard in the distance and also he just acted strangely during the few minutes I interacted with him. I would not ever want a dog who behaved anything like him nor would I ever in a million years think about breeding him! I wanted to get away from the parents as soon as I met them because they looked so gross and dirty. I have seen all the beautiful pictures of dogs on this message board so I thought, "how bad could her dogs be?" It was bad. The parents were completely unkept. I went into this hoping and praying that this woman was different because of the timing of the litter and the location. The puppies were adorable, but could you imagine if they ended up behaving like the father? You would have a nightmare on your hands. He was just too weird. Again, I have never been around OES dogs before so his behavior may be normal but he seemed too weird for me. He was kept outside all the time. Why isn't he inside? He is their money maker? If I was making $600 for each puppy my dogs would be living the good life! They would not be living in the back yard! The parents seemed to have zero to very little training. And, to top it off she was trying to get rid of the puppies at 6 weeks, when everyone here says 8 weeks is the earliest. I have to thank you all. I would have just bought one of these dogs from a byb just hoping that because she was an AKC breeder that it would turn out ok. Now I completely understand that really means nothing. That father should not be reproducing. The parents have zero proof they have been health certified. Good luck Allison. Just make sure you spend some time with the father before you purchase the puppies. That pretty much made up my mind. Jackie was very nice but she's not really a responsible breeder. Again, hopefully yours will turn out great. I was just too spooked to go through with buying any dogs from her. Holly |
| I am on my 5th OES, and only the 1st from a reputable breeder. My second had serious health and temperment issues and had to be rehomed. My 4th was from what we would call a BYB. He actually did the eye and hip clearances, and gave me a health guarantee. He was not showing, and when I compare the puppy pics of my last and current, you can really see the difference in type. He was still a pure OES, but way off the look of the dogs I fell in love with from my youth.
One week before the pet food crisis here, he became very ill, basically poisoned by his food. He died from this four days before the recall. I also had a Standard Poddle at the time who ate the same food and was fine. Why the OES got so sick at 4 1/2 yrs, and the 10 yr old poodle was ok is still a mystery. It made me so concerned about the OES's breeding that I started my search with OESCA and active show breeders. It was a lot more money than I have ever paid before, but well worth it. I have a 6 month old healthy/obnoxious puppy now. Ali is the breeder who guided me into picking the right breeder. She was not sure of pups at the time, so she sent me to Amber. They both have wonderful dogs and I would not hesitate to recommend them or buy another from either in future. They are both always there if I have any questions. The most important thing for me was knowing all was done to insure a healthy dog after losing my last at so young an age. Good luck with your new pups...I hope they stay healthy for you. Just wanted you to know why I went the route I did. |
| Hollygolightly:
that's so weird; I actually played with the sire and he was sweet, and even licked my face several times. He was really friendly and came right up to both me and my boyfriend, butt wiggling. I did notice that the younger litter had badly docked tails; one of the ones I picked is from that litter. I was disappointed, but won over by her personality. Good luck with your puppy search. I spoke with several breeders, so I know there are other litters out there right now. Stay in touch if you want a fellow OES owner to have puppy play-dates with. best; Allison |
Quote: The father was afraid of people and everything else too. He jumped with fright at a small noise he heard in the distance and also he just acted strangely during the few minutes I interacted with him. Definitely NOT a good sign. Though mine came from BYBs the breeder got the temperament part of breeding 110% right. All of my sheepies love people and can't wait to interact with them or greet them. My vets have all commented on how easy they are to work with... just like THEIR papa. Panda's the same way. Quote: The tails on the younger litter were not docked correctly. I have never owned an OES, but I could see the tails were two long. The tail docking thing is a dead giveaway of an uneducated breeder. I've got a rescue (Panda) who was left with a stump. They are NOT supposed to have a stump! Quote: And, to top it off she was trying to get rid of the puppies at 6 weeks, when everyone here says 8 weeks is the earliest.
At 6 weeks... is that even legal?? |
Hollygolightly wrote: I have to thank you all. I would have just bought one of these dogs from a byb just hoping that because she was an AKC breeder that it would turn out ok. Now I completely understand that really means nothing. That father should not be reproducing. The parents have zero proof they have been health certified.
Good luck Allison. Just make sure you spend some time with the father before you purchase the puppies. That pretty much made up my mind. Jackie was very nice but she's not really a responsible breeder. Again, hopefully yours will turn out great. I was just too spooked to go through with buying any dogs from her. Holly Holly, thanks so much for posting your experience and reaction. I think many new people come on the forum and when we give advice how we do, just think we're being cynical know-it-alls. Yours is a fresh perspective that reaffirms much of the advice that we try to get people to take under consideration. Thank you for listening and thank you even more for understanding. I know you'll make a good decision now and we're all here to help if you need-- and that's not just something we're saying because it sounds nice. If you seriously need any direction, have any questions or just something that you saw that you wonder if you should be concerned, we're all more than happy to jump in and give whatever advice we can. Some of the people on here have 25+ years experience with the breed and there's almost no question someone can't answer! As far as choosing a pup from a breeder like this, I agree that it's difficult to turn away from a sweet little puppy. It's easy to say that you'll deal with problems as they come but the real problem isn't your puppy, it's the fact that the money for that puppy fuels future litters and possibly more health problems-- and maybe those pups won't be so lucky to have someone that can afford to take care of them. Those kind of breeders, unfortunately, are not going to be a lot of help in solving the problem nor do they normally take the dog back themselves. Guess where they wind up next? Rescue. So now people that give their hard earned free time and effort simply out of the love for the breed are put into a position where they have to make a hard decision and clean up the BYB's mess. Can we raise enough money to help the dog? Can its problems be rectified? Will he or she be adoptable? The saga stretches on way past the owner and the dog. I never fault anyone for making a decision when they didn't know any better but when someone is armed with all the information that they need, and still goes ahead and goes against all advice, I really do get frustrated. You just wind up doing a disservice to yourself and the breed. Why pay money for a dog that isn't as close to perfect as it can be? If you want to love a dog that isn't perfect, that's awesome. We need you as a home for rescues which, ironically, are usually the same dogs you're buying from the BYBs in the first place! It's not the dog's fault but, ultimately, the whole point is not to put more money in the hand of someone who is only going to continue breeding poor quality dogs. The fewer poor quality dogs, the better for the breed and the better for all those involved. It's a vicious cycle that is destined to continue, which is why we try to make people understand all this stuff. We may never get rid of all the bad breeders but it sure would be nice to get rid of some of them. |
| Very well said, Jill. |
6Girls wrote: I imagine cerebrial ataxia would also be excluded because it's hereditary?? (Is it true that this is a relatively new condition in OES??) .
CA isn't the main concern as far as an insurance plan is concerned, since it's a progressive neurological disease that is untreatable. It is inherited though. I wouldn't call it new. I've talked to a couple of old time breeders who swear they saw it in milder forms as far back as in dogs born in the '60s (!). No one knew what it was then, and it wasn't until we started seeing more frequent cases - and clusters of cases - that someone finally said, "I think we have a problem here" and initiated the research which, in turn, is relatively new - going back less than 15 years? To be perfectly honest, and I've started specifically looking at BYB pedigrees for other reasons lately, CA wouldn't be my main concern. Yes, the pedigrees typically do have varying degrees of CA risk. But the risk of bad hips, deafness, temperament problems and immune-mediated issues far, far exceed those risks. Are there any insurance policies out there that cover behavioral consultations for bad temperaments? Just curious. Thank heaven the rescue dogs we've been getting in lately (knock on wood) have had much (!) improved temperaments over what we've too frequently seen in the past. But they've also been dysplastic. We're getting a two year old male in this weekend. Please, please let him be healthy for a change AND have a good temperament. He's coming to me first for evaluation so I guess I'll know soon enough. Kristine |
| Kristine... I want to know when is your book coming out I can't believe how much info you have. I'm always learning something from you. You explain things very well and I appreciate your efforts in educating us. (But don't let this go to your head though )
That completely slipped my mind that CA being untreatable... 
Quote: Are there any insurance policies out there that cover behavioral consultations for bad temperaments?
I don't think they do but I could be wrong... these don't- PetCareInsurance.com Specifically excluded. Plan: QuickCare Gold- #8 Behavioral problems and/or consultations for this. AKC Pet Healthcare Specifically excluded. Plan: Essential Plus- Treatments associated with behavioral problems whether or not the direct result of a covered incident. Good luck with the 2 year old coming in. Fingers are crossed that he's a healthy, goofy sheepie-boy. |
6Girls wrote: Kristine... I want to know when is your book coming out
I can't believe how much info you have. I'm always learning something from you. You explain things very well and I appreciate your efforts in educating us. (But don't let this go to your head though ).Fear not - my dogs keep me humble  Very humble...
Thanks so much for the clarifications on the insurance policies. I'm almost surprised they even address the issue, but perhaps that's indicative that people are utilizing behaviorlists more. Speaking of humbling, I'm babysitting someone's baby rescue dog right now. She's so full of it, but so funny! She goes home tomorrow and I hate to see her go. But considering she seems to feel that Sybil is her own personal pacifier, that may not be the universal household sentiment
Kristine |
| I agree with ButtersStoch post. Holly you made wise decision. We aren't mean people here just want to stop puppy mill and back yard breeding. |
| I just want to emphasize that while none of my dogs came from OESCA approved breeders ( I didn't know such a thing existed when I was getting my dogs) and indeed, my current dogs have come from breeders who should not be breeding OES, I do not consider them any less terrific dogs--nor would anyone on this site, as far as I can tell.
They are, however, unsuitable as breeding stock and have been altered, accordingly. This is an important distinction. My first OES came from a long line of champions; his dam's owner did not show, but took great care in selecting animals for her very, very limited breeding program, with appropriate screenings for health and temperment. Merlin was a terrific dog and a pretty darn good example of breed standard, as far as I understand it. Archie came from a breeder who should not have been using her animals to breed; she was also quite ignorant about the breed and relied upon my word that the vet had not properly docked the puppies' tails. Heck, I only knew from my other breeder (who wasn't breeding any longer when we wanted to add a dog) and my first dog. Her dogs were very unkept: I wanted to take the sire home with me to put his coat to rights. It was......very, very, very matted. Worse than any photos I've seen on this site. However, both parents had lovely dispositions--sweet, friendly, non-aggressive, and this has been passed down to Archie who at 8 1/2 has been free of any health problems; however he is slowing down and I worry about arthritis with him. He would never have passed any body's version of breed standards, except in temperment: he's as sweet, stable and good a dog as any I've ever seen. With Merlin, I toyed briefly with showing him and maybe putting him to stud but decided that wasn't the life I wanted. With Archie, that never crossed my mind. We looked at his purchase as a kind of rescue, not really considering that we were contributing to a problem. And frankly, I have to believe that his 'breeder' chose to focus on the bichons she also bred (another bad sign). A couple of years ago, we lost Merlin, just shy of his 14th birthday. As spring approached, we knew we wanted to add puppies--yes, puppies because I thought (naively) that it would be just as easy and twice as much fun to raise littermates, plus they would always keep each other company. I had found this site and tried contacting the breeder referal program, but unfortunately, it took some time, and due to a set of circumstances, we needed to make a decision to find a puppy before I heard back. My impatience was at fault: we knew we would have the best success with puppies if we raised them during the summer when my husband and 2 of my kids would be at home. That led us to make a less than wise decision to purchase puppies from a less than reputable breeder. I wasn't aware that they had more than one female that they were breeding--the others were kept in another part of the property. Parents were a little--exciteable. But ok. We chose Sophie and Sherman, who are very sweet dogs, but I anticipate health concerns with Sophie and possibly Sherman. I don't regret Sophie and Sherman, even though I anticipate expense, and much worse, potential health concerns down the road. I do regret, very much, that I contributed to these people's business. I don't love my dogs any less for their inauspicious beginnings: I have given them all as much love and care as I can and would do the same if they were found along side the road, with uncertain parentage. I absolutely respect their personalities and abilities. But I won't make the same mistake again. |
| I am purchasing an OES from Jackie Drumm and will pick him up on Thursday. I am aware of the possible risks, however, I know that I can provide him with a loving home and a very nice one at that. I have three adult dogs that were all rescues and one was in really bad shape when she was rescued. We have loved them for many years and they are the best dogs. They never bother anything in our house and everyone can't believe that they live in the house with us. They are much like us, they get sick and occasionally need medical care. One is 13 years old and has arthritis really bad. She needs knee replacements but she is too old. We pay for lab work, xrays, and a lot of medication for her. Yes, it is expensive, she is like a little old lady...would you put your grandmother to sleep because her medicine costs too much? No, you would sacrifice and do everything that you can for her. My dog is not suffering, the pain meds work very well and she visits the vet frequently. That would also be like not wanting an unborn child because it may or may not have potential health problems. So what is it costs more in the long run? Would you deny your child medical treatment because it's too expensive? If that is the case, you should not have kids or dogs. I am not interested in showing him, I want to love and provide him with a good home. I have a husband, three kids and three dogs until this one is added. I stay at home and can devote my time, love and attention to this puppy in need of a good home. If you knew of a child not being taken care of, would you do something about it or would you just turn and walk away? I am adopting this one and may even be saving it's life from the way it sounds. If you really believe that they are not being cared for, please report it so that more puppies will not be brought into this world. |
| It sounds like you are a loving and caring dog owner. Why not get an OES from rescue, then, instead of giving your money to this person? You are rewarding her financially for her behaviour, thus keeping her in business. I think that is what people are trying to say. If no one bought from her (or from anyone else who was not caring for their dogs), then she would not be in business. |
| I have tried reporting Jackie Drumm, on several occasions. Its just not that easy. You buying this puppy has helped pay for more dogs to be brought into the world by her, literally. She just bought an intact 8 month old from someone who thought it was going to a loving home, that she is going to breed shortly. Your money helped buy that 8 month old pup that will be bred in its first heat. Also, our rescue is getting yet another Jackie dog this week. A litter mate to one of my two girls is coming in for the second time. Leads me to believe she probably has the same type of behavioral problems my dogs do, and we've just not found the right owner who will be willing and capable of doing the hard work to make it "okay" on a daily basis. And I say "Okay" because its never 100% great. At 3 years old, I'm still taking my Jackie dogs for regular training classes, and we had a huge throw down fight between them only just this morning. Training helps, but the problems will always be there. I'm glad you say you are willing to do whatever it will take for this pup- you maybe asked to put that to that test. I hope you can and will stand by what you've posted, because when our fighting started it was scary as hell, and our vet suggested euthanizing the dogs. Only after she was convinced of my desire to work with the dogs for their entire lives did she tell me about the trainer we use now, one that specializes in aggressive dogs. Killing dogs, even. And yes, the fighting can get that bad. But please, if you cannot keep up with the issues you may encounter, do not euthanize your dog- call rescue and we'll gladly take it and try and get it homed in a situation where the work that will be needed can be done. I hope your dog is wonderful, and healthy and has no temperment issues. But I do wish, knowing what you do from those of us that posted here, that Jackie wasn't getting your $650, so she can finance her personal puppy mill. |
| aaah... what a walk down memory lane. Re-reading my oh-so-niave post above from 2007 makes me literally smack my palm into my forehead. I thought I'd look back at my old posts, so anyone considering getting a pup from a backyard breeder can read what I went through.... This thread is aptly named "Tonks and Luna, sick again"; I swear they were sick for the whole first year. It was always something, from the day I got them home with UTIs onwards! Of course I called the breeder once we found out, thinking other pups might have these problems too, but she never returned my calls or emails. Weird, huh??? viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18561 Here's a quote from me back in early 2008: Luna has just been treated for her THIRD uti in the 3 months I've owned her. I'd wonder what I was doing wrong, except that her sister Tonks isn't having the same troubles. My vet talked about testing for stones, and they did a sonagram the first time she had it, looking for stones. But it came back negative. The thread is here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19407 And the Queen of Threads, the one that got so many people angry, upset, confused.... but if you want to get a BYB dog you should really read ALL of it. Read how we got into this position, read how mad people were at me, and how many ostracized us for the choices we felt we had to make. I'm not looking for anyone to re-open this can of worms, I'm not looking for validation or condemnation. I'm just hoping that someone will read what is posted, and make an educated decision about getting a BYB dog. I give you the infamous "We're Having Aggression Issues" thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19517 |
| Allison, I remember that post and all the legions of responses. You and Adam had a really tough row to how, with the bad genetics your girls have. You stuck with them and made them into the dogs they are today. I shudder to think of others getting dogs from this person. And how most new dog owners would have given up.... Unknowingly having a bad litter is one thing, but to keep breeding dogs with huge health and behavioral issues just to make money is unforgiveable. |
| I skimmed through those threads Allison, and wow. Makes me realize how we won the lottery with Mady. But it wasn't just a lucky crapshoot, I am convinced Amber is a superb example of the very very best in dog breeding. You love your babies as much as we love Mady and you'll do (and did) anything for them. But I know you would not buy puppies from a puppy mill again. NOT because these poor puppy mill puppies don't deserve a loving home, but because buying a puppy mill puppy just increases the amounts of terribly treated/bred dogs, increases the amounts of dogs who will end up abandoned and in shelters, and increases the amounts of dogs who will be put down. If the guest wants to dedicate a great caring, loving home to a deserving puppy then they should go to rescues. Getting dogs from rescues gives the loving homes and 2nd chances to dogs who deserve it (all dogs deserve it) without increasing the number of dogs who will end up abused/abandoned/killed, which you will do anytime you purchase a puppy from a disreputable breeder. There are only 2 good choices when getting a puppy or a dog: 1. get one from a reputable breeder with the ethics/certifications which can be confirmed and verified independently. 2. get one from a rescue or shelter. Any other choice is bad for dogs. |
| Actually, the "lady" she just got the 8 month old puppy from is also known for a lot of issues with OES...you can read some up on her here viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32536 The dog that Jackie Drumm got a couple months back is Daizy. A rescue volunteer offered help on this dog and Tammy did not care where the dog went as long as you had 500 dollars. I do not know the specifics of the transaction but, Jackie has Daizy and Tammy posted she had a new male puppy!  I recently posted this about the breeder in GA viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32792 She asked no questions about the dogs just wanted to pick them up! Thank goodness they are here now and will be altered next week  Please do not support this type of operation! |
We've been contacted by at least three of this type of "breeder" recently. They actually contact a RESCUE as a source for new breeding stock! These people know nothing about their health, temperament and pedigrees and sadly don't even care. As long as the money from the puppies comes rolling in. Then the cycle repeats itself and the puppies become the next generation of breeding stock.   To anyone thinking they can get an intact dog from a reputable rescue. Don't waste your time. Thanks, Kathy & Marty  Great job!!!! |
| So glad I stumbled on this thread this morning. We had already put a deposit with Jackie Drumm before I found this site. The litter we were waiting for was born Friday. She sent me pictures yesterday. And, thankfully, I found this thread today! I have already emailed her asking for my deposit back (supposedly refundable until the pups are 6 weeks old). Now I am looking for another breeder and thankful I have the resources on this site to help! Sorry you guys had these bad experiences, but so glad I could learn from them BEFORE it was too late! |
| I just went through this same dilemma in Ohio. Do I need to go to a breeder of champions that could go to Westminster when all I want is nice healthy pet? I've been lurking on this forum for months before deciding I really do want a sheepdog and after researching breeders from many sources I think the answer is yes. I'm on a wait list for a breeder from this forum actually! Being a little pricier makes sense because they put more into their breeding animals and it isnt really all that much more for the peace of mind it gives you. However, waiting until summer is going to kill me I'm sure lol. Leslie |
LeslieR wrote: I just went through this same dilemma in Ohio. Do I need to go to a breeder of champions that could go to Westminster when all I want is nice healthy pet? I've been lurking on this forum for months before deciding I really do want a sheepdog and after researching breeders from many sources I think the answer is yes. I'm on a wait list for a breeder from this forum actually! Being a little pricier makes sense because they put more into their breeding animals and it isnt really all that much more for the peace of mind it gives you. However, waiting until summer is going to kill me I'm sure lol. Leslie It's a valid question; you want a pet-quality dog, and have no intention of showing. But "Pet Quality" means it meets the breeds standards- that its healthy both mentally and physically. Your best bet at getting a dog like that is to have had it's parents judged to be excellent examples of the breed. HOW do the parents get judged? Be being in shows. Now every show dog isn't going to produce litters where every single puppy is Westminster material. That's a very special privelege. If you work with a reliable and responsible breeder, they will help you to get the puppy that best matches what you are looking for-- and rest assured, they aren't going to send home a possible Westminster or Crufts champion with someone that just wants a companion pet! |
| Are the lowest quality pups from a show breeder's litter better than the best quality pups from all hobby breeders? Just thinking about it; it seems that a show breeder will be selling "show quality" pups at a premium to other breeders or showers, and of course the stud owner probably gets pick of the litter, and the breeder might want to keep a pup or two. All of that before you get to the "pet quality" pups. I'm not saying this is true all the time, but it has just got me thinking. |
Ron wrote: Are the lowest quality pups from a show breeder's litter better than the best quality pups from all hobby breeders? Just thinking about it; it seems that a show breeder will be selling "show quality" pups at a premium to other breeders or showers, and of course the stud owner probably gets pick of the litter, and the breeder might want to keep a pup or two. All of that before you get to the "pet quality" pups. I'm not saying this is true all the time, but it has just got me thinking. Apples and oranges. I don't think most people understand what defines a pet quality puppy. Some times it's a fault (bad bite, missing testicle) Some times it's that her sister has a better front, or rear, or is squarer etc etc. Though some puppies may stand out as "pet quality", it's often a relative evaluation process. Most breeders charge the same for pups regardless of what type of home they go to. That's because you're selling a show prospect - there's no guarantee an 8-16 week old puppy is going to "turn out" to be a show dog. Also, stud dog owner does not necessarily have first (second, actually) or any pick. More often than not, bitch owner pays a stud fee, end of story. Stud dog owner has no claim on litter. But, yes, breeder will want to keep a pup or two or the breeding probably wouldn't have been done in the first place. If it's a larger, nice litter, you know dogs who could have been shown successfully will end up in pet homes. But here's the real kicker: there are two different kinds of OES - those bred with the standard in mind and the BYB ones. And beyond being gray and white 95% of them don't look like the same breed. But the real difference is in the health testing. When people say "all I want is a healthy pet", I think "then why on earth would you ever consider a puppy from a BYB who does no health testing whatsoever?" Now, if you can find a BYB who does all the health testing, at least attempts to select for solid temperaments, and you don't care if the dog resembles an OES, then that BYB is a viable option. Kristine |
Quote: If you work with a reliable and responsible breeder, they will help you to get the puppy that best matches what you are looking for-- and rest assured, they aren't going to send home a possible Westminster or Crufts champion with someone that just wants a companion pet! I'm glad of that because I'd hate to think my pup would be missing out on his or her big moment of fame and glory!!  Leslie |
| This is one kind of letter I frequently receive when a breeder is identified by name on the forum. I asked for and received permission to publish the letter. 1) I have no idea who Jessica Jennings is, or what is Jessica Jenning's connection (if any) to anyone in this thread. 2) I am not sure what specifically, if anything, is being complained about. 3) oes.org assumes no liability for the opinions of others posted on this forum, and is under no obligation to edit or moderate the posts of others. 4) oes.org relies on the Communications Decency Act of 1996 for immunity from liability for the postings of others. A quick discussion on the act can be found here: http://www.aaronkellylaw.com/internet-l ... -immunity/ 5) As a matter of policy, when someone approaches oes.org in a friendly way, I generally look for ways to accommodate requests. When someone approaches oes.org with threats of legal action.... not so much. Quote: Yes, but please know that each state is slightly different, depending on a number of criteria. Jessica Jennings Quote: > On Nov 4, 2013, at 4:38 PM, webmaster, oes.org wrote: > > Thank you for contacting me. > > May I publish your letter? > I think it would be instructive to others. > > Thanks in advance, > Ron Xxxxxxxx > webmaster, oes.org > Quote: >> Please be advised that your site contains comments that are defamatory and >> illegal in the post found at this URL: >> http://www.oes.org/page2/17058~Georgia_ ... stion.html (also found >> here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17058) >> >> Comments regarding Jackie Drumm are defamatory and without merit. >> According >> to Louisiana Statute LSA-R.S. 14:47: >> Defamation is the malicious publication or expression in any manner, to >> anyone other than the party defamed, of anything which tends: >> (1) To expose any person to hatred, contempt, or ridicule, or to deprive >> him of the benefit of public confidence or social intercourse; or >> (2) To expose the memory of one deceased to hatred, contempt, or ridicule; >> or >> (3) To injure any person, corporation, or association of persons in his or >> their business or occupation.Whoever commits the crime of defamation shall >> be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned for not more >> than six months, or both. >> >> In particular, comments from the user "Hollygolightly" are malicious and >> inaccurate. These statements are framed to ridicule and defame Ms. Drumm, >> and will not be tolerated. The entire thread of posts is aimed at injuring >> Ms. Drumm's character illegally. >> >> Please remove the posting, or be subject to legal action. >> >> Sincerely, >> Jessica Jennings |
| Hi, we recently put down a deposit for one of Jackie's pups THEN we found oes.org. When I contacted Jackie asking for my deposit back she provided me with AKC paperwork of the parents so now I am confused...I don't know whether I can trust the breeder or not. There are a few things that made me suspicious: 1. She does not have a purchasing agreement for the buyers 2. She is not very responsive via email/text 3. She sends a video of our pup once every 2 weeks or so Help!! |
| The AKC is a registry and the papers mean virtually nothing. Never buy a puppy simply because the breeder touts that the litter is AKC registered. It's what's behind those papers that is important and most novice puppy buyers don't know where to look to find this information. Proof of health testing shows the breeder actually is concerned for the puppies they produce. Was this breeder willing to return your deposit? Regardless, if you feel uncomfortable with any breeder you should run from them. Before you get a puppy from them, most breeders are eager to communicate with you. What happens once they have your money? They will be on to breeding and selling the next litters. Don't rely on them to be there later if they avoid communication with you now. |
| Holly, I recently purchased a puppy from Jackie and I've been has happy as can be. If you have any questions please feel free to contact me. Derrick Friedman 678-469-2534 |
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