help! they are fighting...over us..near us...around us
We have a 1 year old girl sheepie (Anastasia) and a 2 year old boy sheepie (Teddy). I know sometimes they have normal little squabbles and they are mostly noise. But sometimes they are having the noisy squabbles and waving their teeth around with us trapped between the two dogs! Now, we also have a sheepie mixed senior dog and a little poodle puppy. (Bitten off more than we can chew? Perhaps.) The older dog raised Teddy and seems to make Teddy very anxious. Teddy is also very territorial about food, etc. Adding Ana into the mix with her very very protective nature...well...what we have here is a volitile mixture. We have been injured by them. We were expected smallish OES's...LOL...we got 100lb and 85lb lapdogs! We have been trying to wait to see how the passing of our old senior dog changes the dynamic, but I'm not sure we can wait. We love these sheepies, but could they be having a better life living separately? At what point is it better to give them up?? When Teddy goes off, we just can't seem to do anything except try to get any human or feline people out of the way. He's never hurt a cat, he just barrels at them growling and barking if the cat(s) is doing something without his permission (ie...eating, playing, walking, etc). Ana has adopted our 2 ragdoll kittens. If Teddy goes after them, Ana blindsides Teddy. THAT is usually a very short squabble! Ana wins. Teddy is such a beautiful boy and such a huge pain in the...well...you know what. And Ana is really still just a puppy....and getting goofier and more protective by the week. Are we doing these 2 a dis-service? I'm sorry I'm going on so long. I am just wracked with guilt. We have never, never given up on a furkid. Til death do us part is my deal with my babies. Please....if you have any tips or advice.... |
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| Welcome!
Is Teddy neutered and Ana spayed? Teeneage hormones are the pits in any species. I feed my three separately - there has never been any aggression, I just don't want to have to deal with it if it starts. Have they gone through obedience? It really helps them calm down and be more fun to be aorund. Others wil be by with real advice. |
| Hi and welcome to the forum.
It sound like you could use some professional help in managing your herd. Let me tell you of my story (very briefly). Barney, laid back, raised as a pup. When he was about 9 months old I rescued Maggie, a very domineering bitch at almost 2 yrs. When I put them together I thought she was going to kill Barney. I kept them separated for about a week till I could find some help. Met a great trainer. With his help I gained control of the situation and through obedience training was able to completely turn the sitution around. You may need someone to teach you how to be the pack leader and take control of the situation. Once that is firmly established, much of the problems will melt away. You might talk to your vet to see if they have any referrals. |
| How far south of the Mason-Dixon line are you? I am in Louisiana.
I have three sheepies (2 are alpha males at 105 and 110 lbs) and at various times we introduce a fourth (we foster) and I can't stress enough that you need obedience training for them. THere are going to be fights at the beginning as they establish the dominance order of the pack but then things will settle down. I would also consider crate training so that if you notice things are escalating then you can crate them (time out for doggies) and give them a chew toy to take their mind off the other dogs. You have to learn to read the body language of each of the dogs and to step in. Hope things improve and welcome to the forum. |
| oh yes...ALL the canine and feline people who own this petting zoo are altered!
We do have separate rooms for feeding and treats. The body language is very apparent. If our old mixed boy LOOKS at Teddy, Teddy goes off. If Teddy comes near us or a cat, Ana raises her lip...and here we go again. I can usually control Ana....just me. But I am only 1 of 5 humans here. Teddy we cannot control. In his fits, he can't hear commands. Any attempt to physically control him is, at best, folly...at worst, dangerous. And we have involved trainers and even an animal behaviorist. We have spent a fortune. Teddy now knows how to sit, lay down and wait...unless he's going off. The animal behaviorist managed to make everything worse...until we stopped doing what she suggested. The only thing the "professionals" have had to offer is "this may or may not work...no guarentees" or "well...you could always give up one or both of them". Give up? LOL...I'm just as stubborn as my sheepies! BatonRougeSheepies...we are a whole 20 miles south of the line!  |
| Oh, I should add that Teddy suffered from a seizure condition as a puppy...and has many, many food allergies (beef, wheat, corn, even lamb). From good stock, he did not come. He was a rescue. He is slightly brain-damaged from the seizures. But, as I said, I don't give up easily. |
| Welcome to the community! |
| welcome from fla.. sorry not too much help but i am sure more will chime in .. thanks to people like you who bring in rescues!!!sorry you are having a tuff time |
| WE have Murphy - 5 month old sheepie and 3 year old Shih Tzu and 11 year old Sheltie. Murphy keeps the ShihTzu and the Sheltie living under the kitchen table. he does not want them to get any attention from us. they are afraid to come out, if they do, Murphy jumps on them and herds them back under the table. We have a trainer and murphy will be going to obedience class. i work with him a lot and exercise him. he is good but the other doggies' lives are not what they were. |
pettingzoo wrote: Oh, I should add that Teddy suffered from a seizure condition as a puppy...and has many, many food allergies (beef, wheat, corn, even lamb). From good stock, he did not come. He was a rescue. He is slightly brain-damaged from the seizures. But, as I said, I don't give up easily.
Have any of the various professionals you've dealt with suggested the possibility of Rage Syndrome? The little one and the pack dynamics can most likely be managed as George described, but Teddy's condition may be a different kind of challenge. What condition caused his seizures as a puppy and how is it managed today? Kristine |
| Since we're talking last ditch efforts, has low thyroid or pain also been eliminated as a possible cause of his aggression? Bad hips, broken tooth, etc. He's pretty young but two of mine were diagnosed as hypothyroid at around 2 years and started meds... no aggressive issues though low thyroid can be a cause of aggression.
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-ang ... havior.htm The following is a link to a good website about epilepsy in dogs if he still has seizures- http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-ang ... te_map.htm Once dogs get into that fight-zone, there's not a lot that can be done... they're too focused on the fight. We'd move large furniture like chairs or tables into their space to break up fights or drop metal bake ware on the floor. Do you watch for posturing... the body language that indicates a challenge will take place? The lowered head stare or even eye-to-eye stare, stiff legs, hackles raised, frozen stance, maybe a low growl. If you can break the focus of a dog or dogs at this point, you may be able to prevent a confrontation from occurring. But it takes careful observation and strict supervision all the time. We went through fights with a 40 pound 8 year old Schipperke-mix that didn't like her space invaded and a 60 pound 1 year old OES rescue who knew absolutely no limits. We're talking fights where the Schip would grab hold and shake, not little nips. Good thing Panda has such dense hair. We had a pro-trainer in that had experience in dealing with aggressive dogs in a humane way. Fingers are crossed but we've been bite-free/fight-free for well over a year. Have you spoken with your vet to see if there is a medication available that might take the edge off the aggressive dogs? It might be a way to get by. We used Clomipramine or Clomicalm. The OES was already on it because she arrived with severe separation anxiety. It seemed to take the edge off. http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... cleid=2415 It's not a pleasant thought but rehoming the most aggressive dog may be in everyone's best interest if all else fails. Is there just one that sets everyone else on edge... one in a pack that's a rabble rouser and makes a pack unstable? I had a sheepie-mix that passed away about 4 years ago that was like a loaded gun with other dogs... we used gates in our home to keep peace. We made it work but it was very stressful. If no one is happy (dogs or humans), it can't make for a peaceful and relaxed home. If any of the aggressive dogs in your pack are not people-aggressive too, please contact a rescue to discuss the possibility of their assistance. Be honest and truthful so they can find a family to match the dog. Sorry I don't have any quick answers. I wish you the very best with this difficult situation. |
| "They" don't know what caused the seizures. He was very very underweight and ill at the time, so it could have been anything. No seizures since he was 6 months old.
We are thinking about boarding our old mixed boy for a week and see how that effects the dymanic. He has sooo much control over everyone (but the poodle) and it's clear he intends for Teddy to never be anything but low man on the totem pole. Which is kinda weird when I think about it...Teddy is twice his size! It seems like "the pack" is preparing for the old man's departure. The slightest weakness in him and they seem to be trying to chase him away or kill him. And he is letting Ana and the poodle do that! But not Teddy. It's strange to see Ana go after the old man, Teddy trying to defend the old man by going after Ana....then the old man will go after Teddy for threatening Ana! And yup...we have baby gates all over the house to route dogs around with as little conflict as possible. I swear some days I really question our love of sheepies! Like now! If y'all will excuse me, I have to get Ana and the poodle out of the hottub, rescue the toys the kids left in there before they eat them all, get Teddy out of the litter box, get the old man out of the pantry, and rescue Teddy from the kitten dangling from his ear! (There really is some laughter and good times thrown in with the bad.) |
| Dogs can easily be set off by the fighting of other dogs... the pack instinct. They don't necessarily go after the "bad" dog or the dog that started the confrontation or caused the problem. It's kinda like a bar fight... it was here anyway.
When a fight would breakout here, I had an order that I'd separate them... thankfully 4 are non-confrontational or easily controlled. Both my Schipperke-mix and my mostly blind OES are set off by the commotion of fighting so I'd get them controlled first. Quote: I swear some days I really question our love of sheepies! Like now! If y'all will excuse me, I have to get Ana and the poodle out of the hottub, rescue the toys the kids left in there before they eat them all, get Teddy out of the litter box, get the old man out of the pantry, and rescue Teddy from the kitten dangling from his ear!
Sounds like you need more gates or possibly crates to help cut down on the commotion. Yikes.. you mentioned kids? Please be sure the dogs are contained if you can't watch them... even if it's only for a minute. |
Welcome from sunny Arizona  |
| welcome. the one thing I have learned with mytwo is that they need to stop their "squabbling" at the sound of my voice. We take weekly agility and or obedience classes so they keep "remember" I am the one in charge. Mostly it works. I work with a behaviorist and it is well worth the time and money with two young sheepies (both just two).
There are ways to work through most agression issues. Good luck |
| Welcome from another Marylander I would use lots of gates . Have any of the dogs had any obedience training? That would help . There are quite a few good trainers in Maryland. If you want to PM me and let me know where in our fine state you are I might be able to give you some names. |
| Pettingzoo, I can't offer any help, I have only Chauncey, but we are neighbors ( I'm also a Marylander ). I'm about 10 miles south of the M/D line and only 2 miles from WV. If we are close maybe we can arrainge a play date. If nothing else I could help burn off some of their energy. You can PM me if you'd like.....Kathy
BTW, one of the things I have learned from a trainer, to break their train of thought is to use a spray bottle with water/vinegar mix. I'm a softie and couldn't do the vinegar, but the water spritz in the face works well. Just enough but not too much like punishment. It get's their focus off whatever and on to you. |
Chauncey wrote: Pettingzoo, I can't offer any help, I have only Chauncey, but we are neighbors ( I'm also a Marylander ). I'm about 10 miles south of the M/D line and only 2 miles from WV. If we are close maybe we can arrainge a play date. If nothing else I could help burn off some of their energy. You can PM me if you'd like.....Kathy
BTW, one of the things I have learned from a trainer, to break their train of thought is to use a spray bottle with water/vinegar mix. I'm a softie and couldn't do the vinegar, but the water spritz in the face works well. Just enough but not too much like punishment. It get's their focus off whatever and on to you. Be careful doing that, though. It's also a good way to make your dog fear a spray bottle and, if you have an OES that you're line grooming, you definitely don't want that! |
| Still use the spray bottle for grooming with good smelling conditioner. It has been over a year since we used it to break his " moment ".
We did use both ( with conditioner and with water only ) though for those first 16 mos or so without a connection on his part. We tried alot of things; verbal commands, can with marbles, bells, etc. The spray worked. He doesn't mind the spray with grooming although, I can see the where it may be a problem. |
| You all are so giving with your tips, your time and energy! I do thank you for that!
Believe it or not, the dog in this house with the most formal training is Teddy! And in answer to everyone else's question...we are just northwest of Baltimore. I think what this is coming down to is....are we giving him the life he deserves? A dog who acts this way...is this a happy dog? I have always been owned by 4-footed children. My promise to them is a lifetime of the best health care, the best foods, lots of toys, and all the love and happiness they could ever want. (All my friends want to be reincarnated as one of my pets!) But Mr. Theodore (aka Teddybear) is clearly needing something I can't provide...nor can the other 4 humans in this house. I have a feeling he needs to be an only dog. We have tried medications to help with his anxiety and outbursts. I think all the activity in this house is just too overstimulating for him. I don't know how to find someone who knows sheepies (grooming needs, etc.), is willing and able to manage his health issues, but does not already HAVE a dog. But we have to give him a chance to be happy. We have decided that we are not being fair to him...and we are going to have to let him go. |
| new picture, by the way, is Teddy (quite trimmed). The old one was Ana being a goofy puppy. |
| If you visit this link you'll find a list of OES Rescues-
http://www.oes.org/html/oes_rescue.shtml If you have any problems, you might also consider talking with Grannie Annie with New England OES Rescue. She's placed so many OES and may be able to help Teddy find the home right for him. Her telephone number and email address can be found here- http://neoesr.org/doghome.htm Best Wishes To Teddy~ |
| Hi, well I have lots of sympathy for you....... I introduced my Bella at 9weeks to my jack russell who hated her on sight..... Murphy rulled this roost till she came alone and tried to continue doing so up till I decided I WAS GOING TO RULE THIS ROOST and I took charge of them both. Can I recommend something you make not like but it works for me? I have a rattle bottle... a bottle with a few stones in it and when they start to get out of hand in what ever way they do and I don't like it I rattle the bottle and in a second I have them all running for cover..... not to hard and it doesn't hurt them but it makes me the boss.............. worth a try eh? let me know what you think? I am from kent in the uk and would love to hear from people from all over with regards to their sheepies........... I just adore my bella she is oooohhhh so wonderful |
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