Has anyone heard of this breeder?
Once again I am back soliciting advice from you. My wife and I have decided to go the puppy route and she has found a puppy that she loves. Has anyone heard of a breeder by the name of Wendy Clarke, out of Illinois? Her kennel I believe or at least the website is Best Old English Sheepdogs, the address is bestoes.tripod.com. She gives everything else that all other breeders that are on the reccomend list such as health guarentee, shots, travel, stuff like that. Just looking for whether or not anyone has heard of it? Thanks in advance...... |
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| Big red flags went up as soon as I saw the price.
This is definitely a byb (backyard breeder). What kind of health guarantee is she giving you? Are the eyes and hips certified on the parents? Has all the proper testing been done on these dogs prior to breeding? You think you would be saving money with a breeder like this. That is not always the case. There is a high chance that your pup could end up with hip dysplasia or numerous other health problems and it could end up costing you thousands of dollars just to take care of your dog. The reason everyone recommends people on the OESCA list is that they breed to breed standard (which includes showing the dogs to ensure they are of breed standard), they do all the proper genetic testing, they also breed for temperment. You are much safer with spending a bit more money up front than spending a LOT more later. |
No as I live in another country. Looked at the web-site though, very cheap pups and breeding for snowcaps and blue eyes to be able to charge $200 more  Most knowledgeable breeders avoid breeding specifically for snow caps and blue eyes due to more risk of producing deaf puppies.
Nothing on the site to say they health test there breeding dogs before breeding, saying they are champion dogs & no information on pedigrees as well, no mention of being OESCA members etc etc. A good pup from the ethical/reputable breeder starts well over the $1000 mark, you pay for what you get, go cheap and you may be paying big money for the for the rest of the dogs life. 
This is the OES club of America link, it has breeder referal and lot's of information there for you to peruse. Check out the health part too, all the things OES can have & do have if breeders don't do the appropriate thing before breeding. http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica.org/ |
| Never heard of the breeder but take the advice from the other post. |
| This is why I come to you guys. We have asked some questions and here is a little bit of the emails that we have passed to and from........
FROM THE WEBSITE WE FOUND THE PUP Registered/registerable (AKC, NKC, etc.), Current vaccinations, Veterinarian examination, Health guarantee Additional information: Aster has a left blue eye and the right eye is dark. He has had his dew claws removed and his tail has been docked. Aster is very affetionate, he has always been the first to crawl into my lap for a good petting. He is playful and very adorable. I think he will be easily trained. I took a stool sample to the vet's office and all of the puppies are parasite free!!! At 6 weeks Aster weighs 7.8 lbs. The vet says every pup has perfect conformation. He is also the largest of the litter. I can ship a puppy on Continent Airlines for an additional $275, which includes the health certificate, crate and the fee for the airline. I have references from previous puppy buyers and from our vet. I offer a 2 year health guarantee against canine hip dyslpasia and any life threatening genetic disorder or disease. A $200 deposit will hold your puppy until he is ready to come home with you. Aster is ready to ome home now. EMAILS BETWEEN US AND THEM....... Hi again, He has taken Nemex for deworming and has had his first set of puppy shots. He is eating Nutro Ultra puppy food. Aster will come with a 2 year health guarantee against canine hip dysplasia and any other genetic disease or condition that is life threatening. I have AKC limited registration papers for him, the vet checklist for their 6 week check up, copies of both parents pedigrees, and the receipt from the vet saying which shots he has received. I will not be home this evening but I will be around all day tomorrow. Feel free to give me a call 309-712-6881 Also where do you live? Wendy It seems you have long lasting and loving relationships with your dogs, that's a great plus. Aster is an adorable puppy. OES are large up to 100 lbs and require quite a bit of grooming. Those are some of the down sides, if you can call them that. They are great family pets, with lots of energy and very lovable. Aster, particularly is my favorite. He is a cute puppy with a very nice personality. He will probably get big his paws are huge now. (about 85-100 lbs full grown) Although his mother Rosy was petite at 55 lbs. I am asking $600 for the puppy and if you require shipping that is an additional $275. I live in Peoria, IL. Wendy Clarke So this is all that we know as of right now...... looking for more of your input..... Thanks |
Well one wonders how a vet knows the correct Standard & confirmation for OES, wonder why the breeder needed a vet to tell them? unless the vet have the breed and show it.  Still have to say questionable as to these breeders, letting a vet say that all the pups to this litter are to confirmation, load of crap, any good breeder will tell you, not all in a litter is show worthy or to perfect confirmation, those saying they are, are best to detour away from, BIG TIME. Even one that is too confirmation a lot can change as they mature. No one knows how much to confirmation they are TILL THEY ARE FULLY MATURE and not 6 WEEKS OLD, unless you have a crystal ball 
Health guarantees on hips up to the age of 2 is useless, screening for hips on breeding parents in done at around 2. So a pup health guarantee for HD till the age of 2 is absolutely useless. Ask the breeder if the Sire and Dam and past generations are listed and assessed on the official OFA register, ask them what the pedigrees are and what is behind these pups? All can be accessed on the open ofa register to the parents and past ancestors. If they have nothing to hide this should be forthcoming for you to access through the extended pedigrees the information on the OFA register. Eye screening too. I still say run away from this and look elsewhere JMO as I live elsewhere, but looking at his web site, never ever heard of them and raises heaps of concern. |
| Another poster asked the same question, and decided to go with an OESCA referral breeder:
http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=15254 |
| One other thing I caught was that the puppy is ready for its new home at 6 weeks of age?? Or did I not read that correctly?? Puppies should never go to their new homes at that age. 8 weeks is the minimum.
I would also strongly recommend buying from a breeder who breeds to the standard, and most importantly, at a minimum, certifies their breeding stocks Hips (either through OFA or here in Canada its OVC) as well as their eyes through CERF. I cant imagine anyone (even myself) stating that a litter of 6 week old pups all have perfect conformation. Breeders who show, do genetic testing, and only breed the best in regards to conformation, health and temperment would be your way to go. You will pay more for the pup, but trust me, you will be so glad you did! People who just breed to breed without doing any of the above I will never understand. |
| This breeder came up before and we all still have the same answer. Run, run, run away! I think the thing that bothers me the absolute most is that this person gives incorrect and bad information. A vet doesn't know the standard and conformation of the pups, let alone at 6 weeks, that's crazy. Plus she's sending pups out way too early. If she's wrong about stuff as simple as that, what else is she wrong and or lying about? |
Quote: I think he will be easily trained.
I bet she says this about every pup. |
| I was just reminded by someone that this breeder bought at least some of her breeding stock (unhealthy and later returned) completely sight unseen from someone on puppyfind.
Run away. |
| "...These written standards describe the ideal size, color, and temperament of each breed, as well as correct proportion, structure, and movement..."
Source: http://www.akc.org/events/conformation/index.cfm Code: The vet says every pup has perfect conformation.
I saw Aster on Puppyfind a week or two ago. The conformation thing is what struck me as odd. The sign above my head says "strictly ignorant about proper breeding" but still I wondered how a vet could tell such a thing at such a young age. (Thanks for confirming my skepticism Lisa ) I'd ask what experience this vet has with OES that makes him a professional in OES confirmation. It sounds to me like they're throwing around a big word that they need to be called on.
The price is low which could indicate how much research/testing went into the dogs that created him. Ask to see the test results. Pretesting before the dogs are bred means the pup you get will be less likely to be affected by a genetic condition... hip dysplasia for instance. I've got a dog with HD but we chose her... we weren't "stuck" with her nor did we feel cheated. Quote: 2 year health guarantee against canine hip dysplasia and any other genetic disease or condition that is life threatening.
Find out exactly what this guarantee means. A health guarantee often means you get another pup at a later date and give up this pup/dog you've grown to love. Get it in writing what will happen to the pup/dog you return. Note that unless the breeder has several dogs, you may very well end up with a replacement from the parents that created this defective pup you're returning. You may then start this heartache all over again. PRA one of the conditions that can affect this breed... it is not a life threatening. While blind dogs do amazingly well, I would think this would be excluded from the guarantee. Be sure to ask all the right questions before you purchase. If you go with a pup produced with no research/pretesting, you need to make a promise to the pup that you will stand by him for a life time... no matter what. Kinda like a marriage... for better or worse. We are my dysplastic dog's 3RD home, not to mention the 3-4 weeks spent at a Humane Society in NJ by the age of 10 months. She arrived with a lot of baggage... humans failed her most likely starting at the breeder that had a hand in creating her. It wasn't fair to her. Please choose a breeder that is doing their part to better the breed though pretesting and research. This is generally a 12+ year investment so it's best to put the money into the PUP you buy rather than down the road in the form of vet bills. Just my opinion... good luck with your search! |
You've gotten excellent advise here from these posters.  I just want to add that you may have to wait several months for a puppy. Once you find a breeder on the OESCA approved list, you may be on a waiting list for a while before the puppies are born. I know this is difficult especially when you're excited and wanting the puppy NOW. But, as the others have said, having patience and choosing the right breeder with the right puppy will be worth the effort and the time and the money in the end. You'll get a quality puppy with health guarantees and a good temperment which will make your family an excellent pet for many, many years. You'll be glad you did it the right way. |
| Just a quick note from a newbie.....I originally looked on puppyfind to get an OES, because I DID want a puppy IMMEDIATELY!!!!
I started my search in June...Heart, my OES puppy arrived on July 30th...and according to all I have read since...THAT IS IMMEDIATE!!!!!! I had to pay over 3 times the price of what the puppyfind people (NOT breeders) were asking and that was a concern, until I read various posts on this site.................. IT IS TRUE.........YOU DO GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR..... and I have no regrets...I really believe I would have had a LIFETIME of heartache with the possible problems I would have had not buying a quality pup. The waiting and cost of a high quality pup from an OESCA breeder is nothing----PLEASE LISTEN to all of these posts..... |
Ron wrote: I was just reminded by someone that this breeder bought at least some of her breeding stock (unhealthy and later returned) completely sight unseen from someone on puppyfind. By the way, the reason we know about it is because she came to this site and complained about the dog quality and the puppyfind breeder who sold it to her.Run away. |
| Gawd |
| I read this forum daily. My name has come up a few times but this time I really feel the need to defend myself. I love OES. I am in the process of gentic health testing and OFA hip certifications for my dogs. I offer a 2year health guarantee because I thought that was a basic type of guarantee. I will stand by my guarantee too. I had my first litter this year admittedly unplanned. This was my only irrespossible move. Every puppy buyer knew this fact. What was I supposed to do with the pups?...kill them? I did not want to put a high price on a puppy that had not had all the genetic and other health screenings and tests done on the parents. I do not attempt to breed for blue eyed snow caps. I just know that puppy buyers want that color combination. I admit I am inexperenced at breeding. Who starts out as an expert breeder? I will not give up. I want to continue breeding with a very strategic plan involving all pertinent health tests first. I have attended dog club meetings in my area to advance my knowledge of OES and breeding in general. I have not lied to any puppy buyer. I answer all questions honestly and offer information they may not have even asked for about the quality of my dogs. I did attempt to purchase a female pup for breeding from a breeder in AZ. I did not assume just because she was an OES she was perfect breeding stock. I returned that particular puppy for a complete refund because the puppy was extremely unhealthy. About my pups, I have not and would not let a pup leave me and it's mother before 8 weeks of age. My vet used the words "perfect conformation" I assumed because he is a vet that he knew what he was talking about. How would I know that he doesn't. I have not made a penny selling puppies. Every cent I have taken in has been reinvested in my dogs. I am not trying to make money. I love taking care of the puppies. If anyone breeds you know it is a huge job, never ending. I have put every ounce of energy I have into taking the best possible care of my dogs and the puppies. I agree breeding is for the betterment of the breed. I want in on that. I want to be an OESCA breeder. I must admit I am intimidated by Show dog people. They seem to be judgemental and very "stuck-up". It seems so easy to slam someone when you know nothing about them. I really am trying to do the best for my puppies. By the way, I do not tell all the puppy buyers that their pup will be easily trained. But if I have an opinion about a puppy that I have spent everyday with I will pass that information on to the puppy buyer, including if the puppy likes to bark alot or if the pup is somewhat of a loner. I want the right puppy to go the right family, like any breeder would. If the folks here still want to slam me there is nothing I can do about it, but I am not the monster I am made out to be on this forum. I will still read posts as usual, there definately is tons of great information and advice here, some of which needs to be taken with a grain of salt. |
Quote: I am not trying to make money. I love taking care of the puppies.
Volunteer to foster pregant and nursing dogs that are surrendered to shelters all the time instead of purposley breeding more.. That should keep this "love" satisfied, and help with the pet over-population problem. At least a shelter should try to insist that the puppies are spayed/neuterd. |
| Is it me in particular that you do not want breeding anymore or do you think no one should breed dogs because there are so many rescues that need homes? I want to pursue OES in other arenas as well. I am attending obedience and agility classes with 2 of my dogs. I will stay on the track that I am on, but your opinion is appreciated. |
| good advise. Actually great advise. |
| Ultimately, I really don't think anyone should be breeding who has not shown the dog in conformation and had the dog evaluated by a judge. It's absolutely nothing personal against you but if this is really something that means a lot to you, and it sounds like it does, even if the show world is intimidating to you, it's something that you'll really need to do to gain respect and a reputation in the OES world. Not to mention, the less checks and balances we have in breeding, the further away we'll start getting from the standard and OES will cease to really be OES anymore.
In a way, breeding is a lot like show business-- you really have to pay your dues and learn before you can make it. I agree that there may be a lot of jerks in the show world but there are also some seriously great people that will help you if they know that you're dedicated and interested in learning. You really only need to find one mentor who can help you get your foot in the door and, from there, I think you'd find the process much less intimidating. I don't have a show dog but, since getting my OES, I've met so many great people associated with the breed that I've naturally met show people and have become comfortable with the idea of showing myself. In fact, so much so, I'm going to start helping someone show their dog just so I can learn more. The only reason I even mention myself is because I'm nobody special and I had no special "ins." I just met people through this forum and it kind of began coming together. Don't let other people keep you from doing it if you want to. Forget them and do it for you and your dogs! By the way, I think it's great that you do obedience and agility with your dogs, too. It's definitely an area that could use more OES! |
| First of all, it's nice to hear that you want to be a responsible breeder! But you have to ask yourself...why do I want to breed?? For me, its all about producing healthy, beautiful well tempered puppies. And let me tell you, its easy for anyone to say thats why they breed. In order to do those three things, it takes ALOT of money, time, research, and dedication to learn learn learn! I have been doing this for over 20 years and I can tell you I definately do not know everything, but I strive to learn more. Its more than just breeding two dogs together. You must learn of the bloodlines, history of genetic problems in bloodlines, such diseases like CA and epilepsy which affect this breed. Health certifications is just a starting point when considering dogs for breeding. Do they conform to the OES standard? You must know your dogs weaknesses regarding their conformation...eg....maybe your dog needs a stronger rear...or a longer neck....you would need to then choose your stud dog accordingly, again, factoring in bloodlines, etc. For me, putting a Championship on my dog before breeding keeps me in line to ensure I only breed dogs of merit (again, its easy to think your dogs are the best and become "kennel blind", which ends up being a huge injustice to the breed)
Yes, we all started somewhere. If you are seriously considering being a breeder you must start out with a quality dog in all three departments....health, temperment and conformation. Attend shows, talk to other breeders, again, learn. Not all breeders who exhibit their dogs are unfriendly. Ask about the hereditary factors that are plaguing our breed. Read books on genetics, etc. Join the OESCA. Being a good breeder doesnt happen overnight, but if you are serious that you want to do this right, you should have no hesitation wanting to do whats best for the breed as a whole. |
| Thank you Butterscocth! I agree I want to learn as much as possible and I want to breed the best puppies possible. I am learning about the dues you have to pay I think I'm paying now...I have been doing my homework. I wish I could find someone to mentor me in the show arena. I am taking steps in that direction, but I just haven't seen that right person to help me. I am still looking. I read this forum everyday, but sometimes the comments are so snobbish I don't want to ask questions for fear of being criticized. I can assure everyone this much...lol...i take better care of my dogs than I spell. |
Quote: I don't want to ask questions for fear of being criticized.
Please... just ASK! It's the only way we can ever hope to learn from each other. And I've asked some pretty dumb questions in my lifetime... Like when I was looking for Jolly Balls for my girls... I asked the guy if he had horse balls  He couldn't keep a straight face.
Sigh... |
| OK here is a question....Can I still come the Sheepfest 4 in Chicago? I was planning to be there. |
| You know, I don't think the comments are ever intended to be snobbish, so please don't take them that way (which I know is easier said than done!). The internet already has a way of being impersonal and things come out worse than they mean. I'm a very sarcastic person and often type as I speak naturally but it sounds a lot worse in type sometimes than it does when I speak out loud. I try to watch but I know often things can be misunderstood!
Fortunately and unfortunately at the same time, we have a big group of people that are crazy passionate about the breed and we all always only want what's best for its existence. I think many of us have repeated the same stuff over and over again, it starts to come out like a speech and I think perhaps we start getting "edgier" because we have been saying it a lot through the years here. It's never because we wouldn't want someone to breed, just that we want to make sure that they're doing it right and with thought, experience and good intentions to produce a good puppy with health, temperament and conformation. I don't think there's a person on this board that doesn't love puppies, lol. If it were up to us, I think we'd love to see new litter pictures every day! Another great way to meet people is by helping with an OES rescue organization. I've met so many people that way. Plus, even though they're rescue people, many of them also breed or show too. I know Chicagoland has a rescue and they'd probably love to have you! |
| I have shown OES for the last 5 years but I am still not a breeder . Why, becasue after taking the time to research the breed and show the breed, and learn about canine structure, I realized that there is A LOT I don't know, and that it will take years for me to learn everything I'd like to before I even consider breeding IF I ever do.
Many of the OESCA Members who breed have done so after taking many years to learn from mentors as well. They took the initiative to seek others out who have a lot of knowledge and experience. Yes, some show people can come off snobby, but in reality they have invested much of thier life to preserving the breed that they love and doing the required work to do it properly. It offends a great deal of them to know that there are others out there who haven't dedicated as much time to gaining the knowledge required to do it right. I went up to a breeder at a show and asked if she would teach me how...it was that simple. 5 years later I am still learning about the breed. I simply enjoy my dog and find fun things for us to do together. I figure there are enough puppies out there who can't find homes, no need for me to contribute to the puppy population when there are plenty of truly knowledgable breeders to provide nice OES puppies. There certainly is no shortage that I am aware of. If you truly intend to do this right, take the first step and do some research. Find out about breeders in your area and ask them to mentor you. But don't do it because you want just enough information to be a reputable breeder. Do it because you truly really love the breed and you would like to get involved in all aspects. There are a lot of other rewarding things to do with dogs- agility, obedience, rally, free-style, tracking, lure coursing, therapy work. The list goes on and on. |
| Best wishes with the future I hope you reach your goal of responsible breeding. There is a lot to learn, I have had the breed for 31 years and only since 1991 have I been involved in all aspects of it. There is so much to learn and I truly hope you do by joining the breed club, finding someone to mentor you in all aspects of breeding and the breed itself.
It is not just about health testing the breeding couple, it is just as important also to learn the pedigrees, at least several generations behind each dog. Some things that are carried in lines can not be tested for and it is knowing the pedigrees in depth behind each dog you are putting together to make sure you don't produce bad/health/genetic traits. A lot can lurk that needs to be explored with the help of mentors & the club. Things like CA (cereballar Ataxia) is something none of us ever want to produce in OES, so indepth pedigree knowlege & mentors helps to keep that out of your breeding program. Let's talk PRA too, eye testing breeding parents and having a clearance there does not necessarily mean you won't produce pups afflicted with this condition. Eye testing of breeding parents is done on an annual basis up to the age of 7 or 8 the time frame PRA can appear, so it is a responsbility to keep the annual eye screening up till that age. If parents are cleared at the time you want to breed them, again it goes back to pedigree research and networking with others to make sure no carriers of this are in the background, it can skip generations before it appears again, so knowledge of the pedigrees along with the help of others is critical in keeping this out of your lines and breeding program. These things metnioned above are only the tip of the iceberg with what can be lurking in the backgrounds of pedigrees if you don't know what you are doing.
So it is more then just the required health screenings and clearances it is about knowledge of what is behind a mating you are doing to make sure you are doing the right things and not producing known problems in the breed. Joining the breed club, get involved in showing, learning about the OES you have from an independant 3rd party (the judge) knowing what is what with your oes (Conformation wise) and what you can do to improve on the next generation is a must for anyone that wants to be respected & accepted for their breeding of future generations. Most OES Clubs worldwide run health seminars just on the breed and what can be a problem and educating breeders to help to avoid them. That's why being involved with the club is important as well as a mentor as it is things that we all don't want and what we all strive for to keep out of the breed or lessen the incidence of producing it.
Hoping you find a good mentor and get a good start on all aspects of being owned and loved by OES
That's all any of us ever want, people to do the right things so they have a wonderful happy future with the breed they love and can pass on that joy to others with sound, healthy next generation kids |
lisaoes wrote: Things like CA (cereballar Ataxia) is something none of us ever want to produce in OES, so indepth pedigree knowlege helps to keep that out of your breeding program. All great advice. Lisa! I just wanted to mention that here in the US we are close to having an open health registry for confirmed CA carriers (and affected). Cancer will be added next. You can read more about it at www.oeshealth.org There are also five separate registries already in place (starting last year) for hips, eyes, hearing, hearts and, of course, thyroid, collected on the Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) site: http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=SD Once we have a DNA marker that can determine CA carrier status, the CA registry will be moved from the Open Health Registry and become part of the CHIC registry (which requires definitive tests; right now all we have for CA is necropsy results on suspected affected dogs, which in term gives us the carrier status of the parents due to the mode of inheritance - autosomal recessive - i.e. both parents MUST be carriers. The DNA test will allow us to test the carrier status of all OES). And other diseases will be added to the Open Health Registry once it's up and running. All of these registries are still in their infancy. Hopefully more people will participate as their usefulness becomes better understood. Also, when you're looking at pedigrees (in general), I've learned that unless you are a walking breed encyclopedia, you need to go at least ten generations back. You may be surprised at what's back there, and also how much tighter a proposed mating is than you originally thought. Or perhaps you had no idea a certain dog is back there even. I know I've surprised a few long-time breeders (and myself!) a couple of times when I've done some rudimentary extended pedigree research for them, and that taught me some very valuable lessons. lisaoes wrote: Most OES Clubs worldwide run health seminars just on the breed and what can be a problem and what to do to avoid them. That's why being involved with the club is important as well as a mentor as it is things that we all don't want and what we all strive for to keep out of the breed or lessen the incidence of producing it.
Yup. The OESCA health seminar at the national this year was on Autoimmune Thyroiditis. I think the seminar can be ordered on DVD if anyone's interested. If so, go to the OESCA site (www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica.org) and I'm pretty sure there's more info there. Kristine |
| Thanks for the update Kristine, last time I heard they vetoed the open CA register, glad that is changing for the future to benefit all |
| Wow!!! What a response to a simple question.
I never intended this to become a slam fest or a witch hunt. Wendy has been more than helpful with information and her and my wife have talked quite frequently exchanging information and answering any and every question that has been asked. Whether a question from this website or one we came up with from our own research. I am not looking for a SHOW dog and do not intend on breeding at all. Even with all the advice and slamming my wife and I have decided to continue and purchase this puppy. I do not at all feel like I have been lied to or mislead in any way. We are going to call him Baloo. I thank each and everyone of you for your advice and be assured everything has been taken into consideration and weighed heavily. Thanks again and we will keep everyone posted on the life and times Baloo. |
| This is not the first time someone has come to the forum to ask about a specific breeder. Frequently when I don’t want to deal with all that happens (exactly what has happened here) I remove the thread and send a private message to the poster telling them that we don’t like to discuss specific breeders here.
When I don’t remove the thread, all of us “old timers” take a deep breath and think “Here we go again”. What usually happens is generic info about buying from a reputable breeder is given. Then we look at the breeder’s website or other info and negative information comes to light. The prospective buyer then tells the breeder what has been written and the breeder then comes to the forum to defend their business. Things usually wind up with the breeder sending me emails threatening to sue me and/or oes.org, a threat never yet carried out. These breeders are salespeople and will tell you anything to make you feel warm and fuzzy and buy one of her puppies. They will tell us that they had “accidental breedings” and we find it has (or does) happen 2,3 5 or more times before they give up on that angle. We ask them for hip certifications and they produce none, or in one case, produced one done after a litter or two and the result was “fair”, even as she claimed that she only bred dogs with “excellent” hip ratings. Sometimes they tell us they know better than all of the other reputable breeders and the OESCA breed conformation standard. That their program is or will be superior and produce superior dogs than the standard (of course that means that they are producing some “Old Brindle Sheepdog” or some other variant if they aren’t trying to breed to the standard). Most of the time they will tell us they don’t show because they 1) hate show people, 2) show people are stuck up and 3) the whole show world is clicky . Yet we have a member here who started with nothing a couple of years ago and campaigned her dog to be a champion, was accepted into and received an award at the prestigious Westminster Dog Show. We have another member who campaigned her dog all the way to championship just for the fun of it. But newcomers can’t win, right? The truth is they can’t be bothered to spend the time and money to campaign a dog, to ensure the dog they love is really good breeding stock. It is not their priority to produce the best dogs possible; they are trying to produce dogs that they can sell quickly at a low price for a profit, all the while telling you about how great a breeder they are or are going to be. Usually when we look at a breeder, we don't know much or anything at the start. In this case, we've had prior contact with this breeder and know a little about her breeding program. While she claims to “want to breed the best puppies possible” this specific breeder went online to puppyfind, notoriously filled with backyard breeders and puppy millers and admittedly purchased her foundation breeding stock sight unseen from a completely unreliable source! That was her intent! Given a slightly different time frame, this sickly puppy of God-only-knows-what background could have been your puppy’s mother had it not been so sickly that even this breeder returned her. Where do you think your puppy’s mother has come from? What is her background? (AKC registration means NOTHING, the worst and most sickly dogs come with pedigrees). How about your dog’s sire? Can you look them up in the online registries for their certs? Too young? How about THEIR sire and dam’s certs. I’ll bet you can’t. So who are you going to trust… the many people from around the world with absolutely nothing to gain either way you go, or the salesperson trying to make a sale? What does your experience tell you when everyone is saying the same thing? Read the “How to buy an Old English Sheepdog” section from OESCA here: http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... nglish.htm Read the simple code of ethics: http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... 202000.htm Why can’t your breeder abide by these simple and time tested requirements? We don’t want you to have heartbreak 8 years down the road as you put your otherwise healthy dog to sleep because of hip dysplasia. Search for stories from “sheepdogmarine”. Read the Medical and Nutrition section – just scan down the list of topics and read the horror stories. Read the Rainbow Bridge section, read my story of how I put down my dog due to hip dysplasia and degenerative myelopathy. Buying a dog from an OESCA referral breeder is no guarantee that your dog will be healthy, and many dogs from non-OESCA sources are healthy, at least at first. It's all about increasing the chances of having a sound healthy breed-representative animal and not support businesses that aren't really trying to achieve that goal. In the end, even though you have decided to go another way this community will be here to support you with your puppy because that’s what we do, just like this hard-to-take advice you are getting now. We would just rather read your tales of joy than tales of sorrow. ...and we'd like to leave this info available for others to find. |
Soldier4U wrote: Wow!!! What a response to a simple question.
I never intended this to become a slam fest or a witch hunt. We are going to call him Baloo. I thank each and everyone of you for your advice and be assured everything has been taken into consideration and weighed heavily. Thanks again and we will keep everyone posted on the life and times Baloo. Hi, sorry - hope my post wasn't taken as a slam. I was just responding to Lisa's excellent advice on breeding in general and using the opportunity to point out some additional resources that are available to breeders. Perhaps we would have been better off startig a new thread to that effect. Good luck with you puppy! Kristine |
| That was the best post I've read on this board, Ron. Thank you for taking the time to write it. |
lisaoes wrote: Thanks for the update Kristine, last time I heard they vetoed the open CA register, glad that is changing for the future to benefit all
<OK, this probably needs to be it's own thread by now, but I don't know how to do that - sorry, Ron.> No, veto. It had been in the works prior to the much touted petition of last year - the petition's originator knew this but chose to go forward anyway, which is fine; it raised much needed awareness - but it was the petition's timing, not the intent, that was voted down. I don't think the Health & Reseach committee did a very good job of explaining this to the OESCA membership, even with the letter they sent out prior - and I told the chair that - but then most of them are thoughtful, dedicated people, but lousy politicians
One of the steps that ideally needed to be in place prior was for OES to be added to CHIC. To do that, you first had to determine which diseases that plague OES are (1) widespread and (2) have tests available for screening. They ultimately decided to make hip dysplasia, inherited eye problems and autoimmune thyroiditis the three main (required) ones, and hearing and cardiac diseases optional. When I asked them why optional, they said - and I hope I'm rephrasing this appropriately - that the BAER and cardiac testing could be changed to mandatory (mandatory for the dog's health screening results to be included in the CHIC database) down the line, but that they chose the three that most people were already testing for (one hopes!) in order to encourage participation and let people ease their way in to make this a normal part of screening/sharing results. Once we had that, and they finished work on that some time last year, they turned to the other half of the equation- the Open Health Registry. That was intended to be a way to share information on dogs who developed deadly inherited diseases we as yet have no screening tests for - CA being one of them. It was the first logical one to include since there is already a closed registry of sorts residing with a Dr Bell, a Tufts geneticist, who has been doing carrier risk analysis for people. This service has been available for quite some time, but I don't have a good feel for how many breeders were actually taking advantage of it. I've submitted several pedigrees to him for risk analysis. What you get back is the carrier risk % on both of the dogs you submitted. (Proposed sire and dam), the carrier risk of their hypothetical puppies, and the risk of producing CA affected puppies in that litter. Because THAT registry is closed, what you didn't get is a list of the known (proven to a scientific standard) carriers in your dog's pedigree. Some people were very uncomfortable with that and wanted names and not just numbers. There were a number of hurdles, many of them legal. People who had contributed their dog's necropsy results and so on from the start had done so with the understanding that the registry was closed and had to be given the option of releasing their dog's name; OESCA could not just go in and say, well, we're changing it to an open registry today! They would have to request written permission from the owner/breeder of the dog in order to release that information. There was also the issue of how to best release this information, yet protect the ongoing research into finding a genetic marker that would allow us to test for CA carrier status. To facilitate the research, the researchers are dependant on people continuing to be willing to submit blood samples and pedigrees as new CA cases are discovered, and also on contributing their dog's carrier status to Dr Bell so others could continue to be made aware of new carrier risk in their own pedigrees. They had to walk some fine lines - I think their Aug 19th update on the HRC website does a good job of explaining how they chose to deal with the issues. The next step, once the Open Health Registry is officially in place, will be to add the various cancers to the registry. Logical additions down the line would be the autoimmune diseases, I should think (this is just me thinking out loud, I don't know what they intend to add next). But ultimately the Open Health Registry becomes just that - a HEALTH registry that covers all of the most important diseases that threaten our breed, but which we cannot screen for at this time. And that information become important when you're doing pedigree research. Diseases that do have screening tests belong in the CHIC registries - CA will be moved from the health registry and become a CHIC registry, once we have a genetic marker test that can tell us carrier status. And so on, as we hopefully develop carrier tests for these other diseases. It's a huge undertaking that could have a tremendous impact if people will commit to participating, especially regardless of results. Otherwise, it's just a lot of har work for naught and that would be a tremendous shame. Kristine |
| Ron Wrote: "So who are you going to trust… the many people from around the world with absolutely nothing to gain either way you go, or the salesperson trying to make a sale? What does your experience tell you when everyone is saying the same thing?
it has gotten to the point that I am going to trust the same people I always trust... MYSELF AND MY HUSBAND. No matter what any other circumstances are or were this puppy deserves to have love, care, concern and all other joys in life. Baloo will come here to live and we will spoil him and adore him and laugh at his crazy antics and pull our hair out when he does god aweful things... much like everyone else here does. I understand what everyone has been saying.... BOTH SIDES. Whatever happens happens and we will honor the time we have to give him a good loving environment wether he live to be 3, 9 or 15. He will be given the best quality of life I can offer and as far as I am concerned THIS TOPIC IS CLOSED. |
| Very good post Ron.
You all know about Kaytee, my dog that was born mostly blind and with a cleft palate, harelip http://oesusa.com/Cleft-Palate-Puppy/cl ... -puppy.htm . What you may not know is that her littermate sister has a narrow trachea with an enlarged heart because of it. Her owner says she won't live a long life. Last September I was told this not quite 2 year old had "... an enlarged heart and the trachea of an 8 lb. dog... They are devestated..." Kaytee could have been AKC registered because she is a purebred Old English Sheepdog from registered AKC parents. Please think about that when weighing the value we place on AKC registration... in my book, these papers are close to worthless. |
That post took 2 1/2 hours to write. I wrote it once and was just about finished when my lights dimmed and my PC rebooted. 
In the first draft (now that you mention it) I did mention that AKC papers were worthless, that some of the most sick animals come with AKC papers. |
| Ron, thank you for all the time and effort you took to write that very informative and heartfelt post.
People will go ahead and do what they want to, no what they should do..... often because it is cheaper and easier to do things that way. Then they can come crying "I should have know better".....etc. etc. etc.. When that happens it actually re-inforces the point you have spelled out so well. As for non-show breeders, who just put two dogs together and produce low-quality pups, we know whose dogs end up in shelters and in the "Dog in Trouble" thread. They don't care what happens to the pup they produce, once they have thier money. That is NOT a breeder that should be supported, whether the pups are cute or not.....but then, the pups are cheap and easy to get....So rescue work continues.... |
| It is post like Ron's that make me cringe!!!! You don't know me or anything about me. How can you make blanket statements about people you don't know. I have admitted that I am not as experienced as I want to be. I have recieved a couple of very nice and helpful private messages from folks on this forum. I will continue to read posts for helpful advice but GEESH some people here are very judgemental and rude. I am not a SALESMAN! But I am proud of my puppies. They are healthy and smart and will make great family pets. I don't lie to people about my dogs or anything else just to make a sale. I just wish we could all get along. I'm not the enemy, my heart is in the right place. I love oes and love taking care of the puppies. Ron acts like I have been investigated, when all he has probably done is looked at my website. I DID NOT but a puppy online that I used as breeding stock!!! I have told that story and if you remeber I returned that puppy! Ron you will just say anything and not even come close to having your facts straight! (about me anyway) If any breeders want to mentor me I will gladly take all the advice I can get. But please, no more criticism. |
| I don't find anyone to be judgemental or rude. Especially after all the sick and poorly breed dogs we have seen come across the forum.
I think everyone is being truthful and telling it like it is. Thousands of people give up dogs everyday do to poor breeding and health problems. There are thousands and thousands of people breeding dogs without the knowledge that they should have about the breed, resulting in very sickly dogs. My dog Rags is a wonderful example of a poorly breed dog. That doesn't mean I love her any less. But obviously someone didn't love her enough because she ended up in rescue. Their loss is my gain. If I were to ever purchase a puppy from a breeder it would be from a breeder from the OESCA list. No, I have no interest in showing at all.... but I would prefer to have a dog from proven stock, with no temperment or health issues. I made the mistake year ago of buying a poodle puppy from a byb. I did not realize that they were bybs. I ended up with a dog with a horrendous temperment, seizures and the nastiest runny eyes you have ever seen. He was also way off as for as conformation. Looked nothing like breed standard. But these people claimed to love the breed and home raised there dogs. I really liked that idea. What I never realized is that these people did not do any testing on their dogs and they were inbreeding. I would have saved myself a lot of stress if I had paid the extra $350 to get the dog I really wanted from a show breeder. My feeling is if you cannot afford to buy a quality puppy, rescue one instead, and get a puppy when you can afford one. |
| The first poster asked what we thought or knew of a particular breeder.
People told them facts whether they wanted to accept it or not. Even you (the breeder) said you've got a lot to learn and know you haven't done everything correct as far as breeding (testing). So we don't have to know YOU to know your dogs aren't up to par. They gave honest answers. Why would they recommend buying from someone who wasn't breeding correctly? Would you esp after all that you will learn from others here? Anyway, I do disagree in the fact that some people here aren't judgmental (quick to judge) or rude in their replies when it comes to breeders/breeding even if they try to hide it in their sentences. I don't think it's always intentional or meant to be that way though. I, for one, have done it and see it all the time (past and present) ...........but I think it comes from all the knowledge they do know and irritation they get from seeing dogs poorly bred and feel passionately about dogs getting the right treatment. Also from own personal experience, they don't want new owners going down the hard road they have with their dog (from bad breeder). I don't even agree with all the arguments (what "is" the correct way to go about breeding), but know they are only giving out CORRECT and ACCURATE info. according to the standard/AKC/etc. |
WCLARKE wrote: Ron acts like I have been investigated, when all he has probably done is looked at my website. I just took what you have said in the past to be the truth. On July 31st you wrote: Quote: I also bought a puppy from xxxxxxxxxxxxx about a year ago. I live in IL so I was unable to go to her place and check out her conditions for the puppies and adult dogs. I received "Petula" when she was 8 weeks old. [...] She was a skeleton. I mean seriously fur and bones. Not only was she extremly underweight she had a very distinct heart murmur and coccidia. [...] I eventually got my money back and I was forced to send the puppy back after nursing her from deaths door. So the whole buy-your-foundation-stock-puppy-sight-unseen-from-an-unknown-source-via-puppyfind-thing wasn't irresponsible?And Yesterday I did attempt to purchase a female pup for breeding from a breeder in AZ. [...] I returned that particular puppy for a complete refund because the puppy was extremely unhealthy. You also wrote yesterday I had my first litter this year admittedly unplanned. This was my only irrespossible move. WCLARKE wrote: I want to breed the best puppies possible [and in a separate post] I'm not the enemy, my heart is in the right place. Your heart may be in the right place, but until you at least have sound breeding stock tested for health issues (preferably back several generations) you are just breeding for the fun or the money (or the accident), and you are not helping the breed.WCLARKE wrote: I DID NOT but a puppy online that I used as breeding stock!!! I have told that story and if you remeber I returned that puppy! Ron you will just say anything and not even come close to having your facts straight! Again, I'm just going by what you have written. I said you bought it as your breeding stock and that you returned the puppy. I don't think I've made a factual error anywhere, but if you point one out I'll gladly retract it, and offer you the apology you deserve. |
I usually dont comment on breeding conversations, since I am NOT an expert on this topic at all....but Im bewildered by the turn this has taken 
An opinion was ASKED for....honestly (if rather vehemently) given....by people in a position to know what they are talking about....and now you are angry? Why? Just because you don't agree with the advise given, doesn't for a SECOND mean that we wont be supportive of you and your new pup, or critical of you personally! I was actually quite impressed with how this thread had changed from being critical of Wendy, to being very supportive of her willingness to learn and grow as a reputable breeder. I thought her courage to come on and admit that she had a lot to learn was admirable. Then....quite suddenly, it turned resentful....I don't get it. I know that for you guys the issue is closed (you have fallen in love with your pup...and that is WONDERFUL!  ) .....But for the forum in general there is still the question of how to answer the NEXT person who wants advise on buying a puppy.....  |
Joahaeyo wrote: I don't even agree with all the arguments (what "is" the correct way to go about breeding), but know they are only giving out CORRECT and ACCURATE info. according to the standard/AKC/etc.
Actually, I don't think any of the advice has anything to do with the AKC and there's no breeding standard, only breeding to breed conformation standard. The only reason I bring that up is so no one reads this later and thinks that the AKC has some breeding rules or standards other than the standards of the breed itself. The AKC's main goal is making money so it is up to the lovers of the breed to ensure the breed remains true. |
| My advice: stay away from those "breeders" find a puppy from a reputable OESCA breeder, which you can find on the OESCA website or ask Tarja |
Quote: I want to be an OESCA breeder. I must admit I am intimidated by Show dog people. They seem to be judgemental and very "stuck-up".
You are wrong here, if you really want , come to dog shows and show your dogs, there is ALWAYS some one to help out the novice and teach them the correct way. This is what you do first, than start studying pedigrees and a whole lot more and when you think you are ready, you might attempt a first litter. This process can take years and than to develop yourself as a reputable breeder takes even more years. We "oldtimers" are here to assist the newcomer. |
ButtersStotch wrote: ctually, I don't think any of the advice has anything to do with the AKC and there's no breeding standard, only breeding to breed conformation standard. The only reason I bring that up is so no one reads this later and thinks that the AKC has some breeding rules or standards other than the standards of the breed itself. The AKC's main goal is making money so it is up to the lovers of the breed to ensure the breed remains true.
Right. The breed club (Old English Sheepdog Club of America) is what decides what the standard is and that is dictated to the AKC. AKC is basically a registration/records business, but also has authority to govern people involved with the organization in any aspect. |
| I'm sorry that I have been defensive. I am willing to learn. I will promise no more puppies until I get advice and help from respected breeders along with the health screenings that go along with OES. I understand that things in print can come across differently than in person. I am sorry I felt so attacked. I realize folks are trying to give good information on a subject they are familiar with. I need to tone myself down and listen. I'm sorry Ron. You did quote me correctly. I'm sorry I ever made that reply about that certain breeder. It is never a good idea to say bad things about anyone. It only comes back to bite you. If breeders will contact me to mentor me I will gladly and with humiliation take their advice. |
| If you e-mail me privately, I am very willing to guide you, I have been breeding OES for over 30 years and also I am a judge and a mentor for OESCA (email address removed) [Note: Please use email or PM button below to contact this member] |
bizboots wrote: If you e-mail me privately, I am very willing to guide you, I have been breeding OES for over 30 years and also I am a judge and a mentor for OESCA
I'm editing your message to remove the email address so you are not flooded with spam. Please use the little "email" button at the bottom of each post to send an email to other members. You can also use the private message function to send contact details. |
| Thanks, I am blonde (LOL) |
| Well you go away for a weekend and things certainly turn around.
You DID ask about this breeder and forwarded onto this forum the link to her website for people to peruse and her answers to your e-mails to her, so everyone gave pretty much the same open and honest response to what YOU posted asking about!! Sometimes it seems like a broken record, playing over and over, people coming to this site and ask about certain breeders, most times they get a good response, yes good breeders,are OESCA members, do test their stock are reputable etc. BUT then they don't like it when they have already made up their mind in the first place, when they read about the replies to breeders who breed and DON'T do the right things in regards to the breed. (It's has absolutely nothing to do with about buying a pup to show or breed it is about all pups and especially those going to pet homes, how to go about getting one that has a higher probability of being sound and healthy) The wonderful people on this forum always give an open an honest reply, even if you don't like the answers. More so for those who are going to be first time ever owners of the breed asking questions, making them well aware of how to go about it the proper way just to help "SAFEGUARD" them for future happiness in the breed and end up with one that will hopefully give them the best chance of years and years of good health and love. No one was slamming this person, all were just being informative & open in their replies to what you yourself posted and asked about !! So why did you bother to ask in the first place? Best wishes with Baloo. Wendy I hope you do take up Edys offer to guide you. Best wishes to you for a good future in the breed and I hope you achieve it all, the right way from now on.
And don't ever be intimidated by show people, not all are unapproachable, you will find the majority of people are great and very helpfull if you are truly genuine about it all |
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