Bitten twice in a day!!
I don't want to think of the worst, but something has to give now..I have old scars, and now some new ones... Has anyone here had/has a similar experience..?? Thanks Mike Japan |
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| Hi Mike,
I'm so sorry that you are going through this. I had a dog who used to bite me once in a while and it is terrifying as well as painful, so I think I understand. My dog never did anything bad without some sort of "provocation" though, like me wanting him to move, or if he was guarding a piece of rawhide. I never had him attack for no apparent reason. First thing is to take him to the vet for a complete check up. Sometimes when a dog is not feeling well they can become a little grumpy and bite. I hope that you are practicing NILF (Nothing In Life is Free), (here's a link: http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?p=185640#185576) and I'm hopeful that some other people will jump in with good suggestions. Sometimes though, no matter how hard you try, some dogs may just not be tame enough to be a house pet, and you may need to make a decision about what is best for you and your family. If it comes to keeping your boy in a crate all the time then that is not much fun for anyone.  Be sure to keep us familiar with what is going on. |
| Hi Ron,
Many thanks... (sorry, I may have posted this twice..) You may remember my previous posts about Mouton?.. Well, its started all over again after a 2 year lull. Just suddenly getting up, going over to the TV, he lunged..This morning, he was sitting there, I ignored him, no eye contact, and opened a door, again he went for me.. He has had many problems since day one, and I keep thinking to myself, its my fault, dogs don't attack for no reason - However, I have changed my mind..Mouton suffers from seizures from time to time, and I honestly feel that he could have some kind of mental disorder..He has now started peeing in the house, and he has excessive barking.. Its really heart breaking, but I have to face up to the reality, for both the family and our other two OES's - safety for them is paramount.. I know I cannot and will not be bitten any more.. He drws blood every time!! - not a nip, but teeth go in! I don't know if there is a way to cure this, I am not hopeful..I will take him to the vets as you suggested for a check-up, but I feel he is in perfect health.. I hate to go down that other road, I pray for some miracle.. Thanks for your help and support..Will keep you posted for sure.. Mike |
| Hi Mike so sorry you are going through this, please do get a full vet check of him firstly to make sure there is no underlying medical problem causing him to lash out and bite you all unexpectably.
If nothing can be found for this sort of erractic behaviour, well I must admit I agree with your 2nd post, the safety and well being of your other OES and your family is paramount if this problem cannot be resolved. It can be like living with a permanent time bomb then just waiting to go off, you just never know when it will happen again and god help it, if it is a child that is in the way when he decides to lash out and bite. Do have him throughly checked out firstly by a vet before making any decisions on his future. Thinking of you all, sometimes tough decisions have to be made for harmony & safety of all in the family. The way he is at the moment, an OES rescue, if you had an organisation there in Japan, would assess him and his temperament/erractic behaviour and the conclusion would be not too good, not trustworthy enough, to erractic and unpredictable to be re-housed and run the risk of passing on a major problem to others.. Please keep us posted and whatever happens know you have a lot of support here on the forum for what is happening with Mouton. Unfortunately sometimes tough decisions are needed when it comes to erractic/temperament issues involving the breed
Something is not quite right there with the all of a sudden peeing issues the seizures, the unpredictable aggression returning etc, maybe there is a major underlying medical problem that cannot be resolved with positive re-training. Hugs I feel very much for the situation you are going through at the moment with Mouton. Not good and very stressing and upsetting for you all. |
| This was the advice given to Joan and me when we talked to a new vet when it was time to let our dog go. We wanted to know when was the right time? Was it now? Was it later? Well this was essentially the answer:
I know you love your dogs and your family, and I'm sure that you will be able to make the proper decision for everyone. Whatever you decide to do is the right choice. You are in the best position to make the decision. You're an experienced dog owner who is giving every possibility a chance. We're here for you to lend an ear. |
| Hi Ron,
I think that is excellent advice... I really appreciate your thoughts, and its good to know that we can share both good and bad times here.. As mentioned, we will take Mouton to the vats on Tuesday (Monday is a holiday here), and will then make a decision then.. Thanks again for your kind help.. Mike |
Quote: Mouton suffers from seizures from time to time, and I honestly feel that he could have some kind of mental disorder..He has now started peeing in the house, and he has excessive barking I'm so very sorry. You may have already done this but I'll mention it anyway...Have you had Mouton's thyroid levels tested in the past month or so? Testing involves just a blood draw. Low thyroid is a common condition in Old English Sheepdogs but it can cause some serious problems if it goes undiagnosed and untreated. Quote: http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-ang ... hyroid.htm
Another interesting association which as been increasing in frequency is the link between thyroid dysfunction and aberrant behavior. Typical clinical signs include unprovoked aggression towards other animals and/or people, sudden onset of a seizure disorder in adulthood, disorientation, moodiness, erratic temperament, periods of hyperactivity, hypo-attentiveness, depression, fearfulness and phobias, anxiety, submissiveness, passivity, compulsiveness, and irritability. After the episodes, a majority of the animals were noted to behave as if they were coming out of a trance- like state and were unaware of their previous behavior. The barking I suppose could fit under hypo-attentiveness, anxiety, fear, or compulsiveness. I also wonder if maybe there could be some seizure activity going on that isn't quite so obvious. Here is another link that explains more- http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-ang ... havior.htm THYROID CAN ALTER BEHAVIOR- BIZARRE BEHAVIORAL CHANGES? CHECK YOUR DOG FOR HYPOTHYROIDISM -By W. Jean Dodds, DVM The entire website offers a lot of information about seizures and low thyroid. IF he has low thyroid or hypothyroidism, a simple little pill divided into 2 daily doses may help to correct some of the problems. I know you're in Japan but Dr. Dodds does have a lab in the US and she's so smart about things like this. She has patiently answered my questions in the past (5 of my 6 dogs are on Soloxine to treat low thyroid). Please consider calling or writing her to see what she recommends. Dr. W. Jean Dodds, DVM Founder and President of Hemopet Email address- hemopet@hotmail.com Website- http://www.hemopet.org Contact Information: http://www.hemopet.org/contact.html Aggression can never be tolerated... especially in such big dogs... but maybe there's a medical explanation for it. Best Wishes~ |
| Dear Jaci and the herd,
Thank you so much for your info too! - No, we have never checked Thyroid levels, and its now given me some hope.. I will definately get this checked on Tuesday, and let you know..If I don't get a satisfactory reply from the vet, I will then call Dr Dodds, or email her.. I am just praying that it 'could' be something so simple as what you have suggested...It gives me a bit of hope, as its something I have never thought about..Mouton has his check-ups, but Thyroid levels are never checked come to think of it.. Thank you so much indeed, i will go to the website and read more - I greatly appreciate your time to answer, and will keep you posted.. Thanks again Mike Japan |
| Mike---
Although I can't add to any of the great advice you have received here, I just wanted you to know that I am sorry you have to go through this... We love and care for our sheepies, and when something like this happens it is not only physically painful, but mentally and emotionally as well. I will just say what most everyone said here...whatever decision you make, will be the right one. |
Quote: I am just praying that it 'could' be something so simple
Hi Mike- I don't want to unfairly get your hopes up about low thyroid because there could be other reasons for your sheepie-boy's behavior. But some of the things you mentioned just seem to fit. I really hope you can find a cause that's correctible. |
| Hi Jaci,
I appreciate that, I know.. Just it has never occured to me, so its something to check.. I guess I can take a step back, and thats good.. Even if its not that, at least we can sayn we tried and tested for that.. Thanks again Jaci.. Mike |
| Also - is he on meds for his seizures? Is it possible that the levels are off, if so, and need to be adjusted?
I immediately thought thyroid. (Great info Jaci!) It's worth ruling it out. Try to find out what kind of labs they have available and what testing they do - the inhouse T4 only is pretty useless. You need a full thyroid panel if possible. If he's been good for two years and then this sudden change, I'm willing to bet on something medical. If it's behavioral, it doesn't typically just go away completely and then reemerge with that kind of force without warning. Also, a urine analysis, given the peeing, might be a good thing to do along with the various blood work. He could be having focal seizures. That might account for some of the weird behavior. And to me it is weird -- not necessarily indicative of a pure behavioral issue. Hope it is something that can be taken care of easily. Fingers crossed. Kristine |
| No, he is on no medications as his seizures are fairly infrequent-about once a month.. and there is no correlation between his seizures and his attacks on me.. He never bites or attacks my wife, only me for some reason, soI guess it could be a male domination thing - as he goes beserk when Magnum comes into the room, so they have to be separated at all times...
Will keep you updated..and appreciate all your very kind help and thoughts.. Mike |
| Thyroid testing is a good suggestion. I should mention that I also immediately thought about a urinary tract infection (UTI) when you mentioned that he had started to pee in the house.
Does it seem like he is "marking", or just going? I know an elderly woman who every so often becomes cantankerous and combative and starts thinking that the nursing home attendants are trying to hurt her. Whenever she starts behaving strangely, Joan tells the nursing home to check her for a UTI. Without fail, she's got an infection. I don't know what the connection is between the bladder and the mind, but it seems there is one. |
| I agree too with Ron have a clean urine sample from him and take it to the vets when you go for analysis just to rule out a problem there also.
Good call on the Thyroid Jaci, I would of thought Mouton would of been tested previously, but not so, excellant advice to explore that side of things too. 
Mike keeping fingers crossed here for you both. |
| Thanks Lisa, appreciate your thoughts... Yes, the vet never suggested to do the Thyroid test - he has a check-up but that was never part of it.. to be honest, I don't have to much faith in vets in our area, as we are a bit in the country..however, we have found one recently which seems good..
Lisa, your idea about taking a clean urine sample is very good too..this is something we have never done before either.. You have all been a tremendous help!! Many thanks.. |
| Mike, you've gotten excellent advise here and I have nothing of import to add medically speaking. I just wanted to say that we understand how difficult this time is for you and your family and that I am appreciative of your efforts to do everything possible for your boy. I'll be checking back for updates and keeping my fingers crossed that you find a medical reason for his behavior which can be treated. |
| Thanks Tammy, I really appreciate all your thoughts and concerns...Tomorrow is the big day, and I'm just keeping my fingers crossed too that its the Thyroid problem that Jaci suggested and can be sorted out quickly.. Will definately keep you posted.. Thanks again.. |
| Hi Mike,
I can't offer any advice but just wanted you to know you're in my thoughts. I hope that the advice given by other members will help you find the cause of the problem. You have my sympathies and sound like a wonderful dad in regards to your furkids. We tend to blame ourselves when something goes wrong but sounds like you are trying very hard. Good luck to you. Marianne |
I keep thinking of you as well, you know you will do what ever is right, but I will keep sending good luck vibes!  |
| I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you and I'll be checcking up to see how things go tomorrow, I know its a tough time but all of us are here for you no matter what happens. |
| Hi,
Thanks to all of you for your very kind wishes and thoughts.. We took Mouton to the vet on Tuesday, but have to wait for the result, either today or tomorrow.. - When we asked for the vet to do a Thyroid panel test, he kind of laughed it off, and said its probably 'Alpha Syndrom' - He didn't really have a clue!! - Unfortunately, this is the largest vet hospital in this area.. Japan is not very well versed in pet care, although Tokyo maybe different.. Anyway, will keep you all updated as soon as we get the results.. Mike |
Quote: When we asked for the vet to do a Thyroid panel test, he kind of laughed it off, and said its probably 'Alpha Syndrom' And he may be right. But the low thyroid possibility needs to be eliminated as a possible cause because his behavior is a safety issue. Quote: Several canine breeds are prone to getting hypothyroidism:
...Old English Sheepdog... http://www.lbah.com/canine/hypot4.htm Here another article I found on a dog trainer website- http://www.doganswers.com/Thyroid.htm You might request a copy of the test results just in case you decided to write to Dr. Dodds. Waiting is so difficult sometimes... We're all wishing you and your sheepie-boy the best. |
| Good luck Mike! I hope the tests reveal an easily correctable medical problem (so much easier to handle than a straight personality problem).
Let us know what you learn . . . |
| Hi
Well we have the results of Moutons Thyroid check, and its 'normal' - we also checked him for Diabetes, which was also negative...So, I guess we are back to square one..I'm not really sure how long I can keep forgiving him for attacking me, but as my scars heal so do my thoughts.. I really wished in a way it was a Thyroid inbalance as it would have been easy to cure.. but with the uncertainty about 'next time', and there will be, I'm sure..its a bit unnerving.. I have a habit now of looking him in the eye, giving him a command to sit, before I walk in front of him.. I would like to thank all of you for your wonderful kindness and help..and thanks so much too for all the encouragement..Mouton and I will live on another day!! Mike |
| Oh Mike... I'm so very sorry.
I had hoped it would be the answer. Is there a dog behaviorist that might come into your home maybe once a week for a while to work with you and Mouton? |
| Hi Jaci,
Please, not to worry.. Thanks so much for all your help..It was certainly worth a shot, and I really appreciated your thoughts..I learnt a lot..We have been to a behaviorist before with him, but they told us that time that its just his character.. with hindsight we should have done this when he was younger.. I guess all I can do now is just keep up my guard..and hope.. Thanks again Jaci for all your help.. I'll keep you posted if anything else develops.. Mike |
| Sorry to hear the result was nothing to do with the thyroid, never mind at least that was ruled out as to maybe contributing to his unpredictable behaviour.
Did you have a urine analysis done too, to rule out a UTI problem? Not just a Diabetes test but testing for an actual infection there as well? So hard Mike You are an experienced dog owner and no one knows your dog better then you do, so be guided by your own intuition/feelings and experience there as to how you do resolve this situation and if it can truly be corrected or not.
Still keeping fingers crossed there and whatever you decide, we are all here for you. |
| Mixed blessings, huh? It's good that his thyroid is normal and there is no diabetes, but I was really hoping that would explain his behavior. Please do keep us posted on what you find out, both medically, and behaviorly as you continue to work with him. Best of luck to you, Mike! |
| I feel your pain. I never thought I'd cry myself to sleep over conflicts with
a biting dog ,or start my daily prayers with "....................and please don't let the dog bite anyone today!!!!!" |
| Such a difficult situation.
Are you by chance in contact with the people you got him from? Perhaps they may offer some solutions or maybe some of the littermates may have dealt with something similar and may have additional info or help to offer? I really admire you that you are trying so hard to solve this situation. Just wanted to offer you some support. I'm sure whatever you decide it will be the right thing. Just reaching out in left field. I don't know anything about muzzling but is it possible that may offer a temporary solution? Since traditional vetrinarian services have been unsuccessful is it possible there is any access to any kind of alternative/holistic care? We've had lots of luck with alternative solutions for our dogs. I can tell you really love Mouton! I'm hoping for the best possible outcome! |
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