Breeding Question?
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| Get used to the whining and separate. |
| I'm sure some of our professional breeders will respond regarding the heavy responsibilities that go with breeding. As to age, no oes should be bred unless hips and eyes are certified average or good, and this cannot be done reliably until the dog is 2 yrs old. Personally I would not consider breeding an OES unless they have champion status in recent bloodlines. |
| There's a lot more to mating than just waiting until they're older. Like George said, unless the dogs have been proven to fit the OES standard and, preferably been shown to championship so you know that an objective evaluator has gone over the dog. You may think your dog is a perfect specimen of the breed but you're not the best judge of your own dog. Everyone thinks their kids are the best!
The further away you are from the standard, the further away from breeding to breeding to breeding that we will get away from actually having Old English Sheepdogs anymore. |
| Yes I agree with the large amounts of responsibility. I know they need to have the OFA certificate at 2 years. I am not saying we are just going to breed them whenever and however...I just wanted to know if I really needed to seperate at that age in which I got my answer. Both dogs have champion bloodlines. Thanks for the interest. |
lol, I was surprised when I read your post and you were deciding between whining or letting the dogs possible mate. Well... duh  |
Max and Me wrote: Yes I agree with the large amounts of responsibility. I know they need to have the OFA certificate at 2 years. I am not saying we are just going to breed them whenever and however...I just wanted to know if I really needed to seperate at that age in which I got my answer. Both dogs have champion bloodlines. Thanks for the interest. I'm surprised to hear that they would have champion bloodlines given the situation that you pulled her out of. Less than average breeders usually produce less than average dogs. Max and Me wrote: My wife and I recently were thinking about getting girlfriend for Max to play with...well we finally found one. We went to the breeders and they had all kinds of dogs and we just felt sorry for all the puppies...they just didn't seem like they took very good care of them...anyway we couldn't say no to this one female...well lets be honest we wanted to take all of them home...anyway we rescued her from her less than average caretakers/breeders. Don't know how much longer she would have made it if we had not bought her. |
| Yes I was suprised as well that she had champion blood lines. |
| They can, and will mate at this age.
And why do you plan on breeding them? Isn't your girl the one that was yellow and full of mites? And is it your boy who you were having trouble getting the papers for? |
| You have 21 days of keeping the two WELL away from each other.
When you want to potty your bitch take her on a lead to an area away from where the dog goes to potty till she is out of heat, never leave her unspuervised outside in the yard as there is some bitches that get the urge and go looking for a mate, so until her heat is over, never unattended outside, even fences will not hold them in if they are that way inclined, so lead on outside is the safest. This way you are confining the smell of being in heat when she wees, to one area in the yard and when you take the dog to potty keep him WELL away from that potty area, that should help with not stressing the dog out too. As she progresses along in her heat she will get more pongier and more appealing to the dog. So you will have to put up with plenty of Whining and orrooing and nonsense from the dog. He may even go off his food around that crucial time in her heat. Seperate them completely, if you have a crate, crate her in a completely seperate area of the house well away from the dog and close the door to that room when you are not there to keep him well away from her. They can try anything to get at the bitch so strict supervision and seperation is needed for the whole time she is in heat. The smell on her will get worse so make sure you wash her beard and backend at least weekly till the heat is over. Under the circumstances you got her, I think personally it would be more appropriate to get her spayed later on. Please do not consider breeding these two dogs, unless you do all the appropriate testing on both of them, join a breed club and learn all that you can before taking the next step. It's not just about health testing, it is about learning and knowing the pedigrees in depth behind both dogs and what can lurk, learning from a mentor with knowledge on the breed and what can be put together in a mating to produce the best you possibly can health wise and to the standard. There is dreadful things that can lurk in the backgrounds of OES if you don't know what you are doing. Things from Cerebella Ataxia to PRA (which sends them blind over time) lots of things that need to be learnt before putting two dogs together and producing puppies. Spend the time and learn first, then take the next step later when you have the knowledge to do it. We all have to start somewhere, but do the right things first for the breeds sake. |
| Make sure you have a SOLID wall between them. A wire kennel will not do the trick. Many a dog has had pups from backing her rear up to the fence/gate/whatever to help the male out!
Also, make sure it is in an area you don't value. Scratching, chewing on both sides will probably happen. For example - my german shepherd Jenny came from responsible breeders. They did not want to breed Jenny's mom this cycle, and had her secured in their barn. The male ate a hole through their solid wood barn door and got in and bred her. Jenny's litter was the result.He ate a hole big enought to fit a german shepherd through!!! 
You may really want to consider spaying her (after this heat cycle) for everyone's sanity and for her health. You are in for a long 3 weeks. |
I own 2 sheepies and I made sure she was fixed before our boy came home. By no means am I am a breeder but would like to say, if you do want to breed just because, even if you did all the things. You could have 10 puppies running around and work, yikes. On this board there are so many dogs in need do you really want to bring more into the world. Now if breeding for showing and all that is different it is the ones that are just for pets. I love mine to bits and are part of my family very lucky. I just see so many give up on there pups.  I even knew a lady you gave up her pup(beagle) because he was not learning to pee outside fast enough had him 3 weeks??? She worked all day and let him run most of the house.  Gave him to someone in town and a great family and a very spoiled dog. HE is in a better place  |
| You are solely responsible to keep these two furry kids apart. No excuses. They will try everything and anything to come together to mate. It would be horribly irresponsible for them to breed at this very young age and without testing and proper history/research.
If you're considering breeding, please consider some of the following things. I can't tell you how to do it properly... I'm ignorant when it comes to breeding. But I CAN share with you some thoughts about when things go wrong... Some sheepie-girls will require a c-section to save their lives or those of their pups if problems arise during delivery. I imagine this surgery starts somewhere around $1,000... or am I way off? Would you be able to cover it? If pups become sick, they'll require veterinary care. Have you ever heard of fading puppy syndrome? (Dr. Dodd's with Hemopet has some good information on how to try to save them with plasma.) Will you be able to afford the vet bills? The breeder that 3 of mine came from had a mama that required c-sections twice. The second time, pup after pup died... only one survived. Pups in the previous litter also died. Are you strong enough to handle heartache like this and able to cover the expense required to try to save them? This breeder did everything in her power to save them but to no avail. It was heartbreaking for all who followed along. How will you handle it if a birth defect occurs? Will you devote 5 weeks of round-the-clock tube feeding of a pup if it's born with a defect like this and is unable to nurse/suckle? http://oesusa.com/Cleft-Palate-Puppy/cl ... -puppy.htm Though Kaytee's breeder was considered a BYB, she fed Kaytee every two hours around the clock. A very noble and conscientious thing to do. Or will you choose to euthanize the pup and be done with it? One of Kaytee's littermates also had issues... she has a narrow trachea with enlarged heart because of it... I was told by her owner that she will not live a long life. And hip dysplasia... will you do all the research before you ever consider bringing these two together to create a litter of pups? Much of this can be prevented if people would only do their homework and make responsible decisions. We are Panda's 3rd home not including the 3-4 weeks she spent at a Humane Society in New Jersey by the age of 10 months. Her last family turned her into rescue most likely because of her bad hips (they had x-rays done a few weeks before they surrendered her) and the separation anxiety caused by being bounced around so much. Her hips are horrid... I bet she would love to be a normal sheepie... instead she's destined to suffer. Anyone bringing pups into this would without testing should be ashamed of dooming a dog to a lifetime of pain and suffering. I had never heard of cerebellar ataxia until about 1 1/2 years ago. It's a heartbreaking condition that has afflicted this breed we all love so much. Watch the videos to understand the affects... http://www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/ataxia/ "Cerebellar ataxia can encompass a variety of different problems with coordination and balance. These will include a staggering gait often with a prominent goose stepping of the front limbs, crossing over of the limbs, and balance problems." From the business end of breeding, if people find a breeder's pup to be defective in some way, they will want their money back and will spread the word quickly. Some new owners will and have sought remedies through the legal system. If the breeder looses, it becomes part of public record. Will you provide the people who adopt your puppies with a lifetime of support and knowledge on how to properly raise the pup you sold them? Will you take a dog back, even years later, if they can no longer keep him/her or simply no longer want the dog? If you're a responsible breeder, you'd better. There are so many ignorant breeders out there that are not breeding to better the breed. I've seen and have some of those dogs that no one wanted. I beg you to be certain you aren't adding to the problems that are already so prevalent. Please find a mentor to help you make the best decisions about breeding. Yes, anyone can breed but only those who truly love the breed will do it right. |
| Bet your sorry you asked Absolutely do remember that the two will do anything they can to get together. I knew of a dog that opened a garage window from the outside to get to his girl!! Best of luck!! |
| I can tell by your pictures that you love the pups very much. PLEASE love them enough to neuter them both and not even consider breeding.
You have come to a Forum that is very passionate about the health and well being of sheepies. The breeders on this forum have put many many MANY years into showing, studying and learning. They are professionals. It is very difficult for anyone who loves this breed not to become quite vocal when it comes to the issue of breeding. If you are sincerely interested in becoming a breeder you must first start in the show ring, in order to prove that not only are your dogs descendents of Champions but they ARE CHAMPIONS. You need to find a Mentor who can guide and advise you and you need to ensure that your dogs are certified in all the recommended areas. To do any less is a travesty. Please keep your sheepies well apart and give some more consideration to your thoughts on breeding. |
| My Boxer that I had years ago got pregnant while in her crate.
Her owner, my good friend from College made sure she was crated as she had had a litter from her previous heat and she did not want to breed her again. She was going to wait until her heat was over and have her spayed. There were also problems with her and her son who was about 8 months old at the time when we took her. He was vicous with her. So when we expressed interest in taking her she thought it would be a good idea. When I took her to the Vet we found out she was pregnant. Luckily my friend paid 1/2 of the expenses. We ended up losing a lot of money . She had to have a c-section....plus all the other expenses that go along with puppies.
So be VERY careful!! Because they can still get pregnant while in a crate. |
Max and Me wrote: I have two Old English sheepdogs...Max is 9 Months and Ruby is 7.5 Months. She has just started coming into heat in the last week and I am worried if we leave them together they will mate. If we try to seperate them they whine the whole time but I do not want her to have puppies as this is her first heat cycle. Should I be worried about leaving them together when I am at work? We eventually would like to have a litter but realize the dogs should be older before we mate them. Any advice?
I can basically guarantee you they will mate given half a chance. You might want to do what some people do and board one of them with friends or professionally. I would suggest Max, since no way would I let an intact bitch of mine in season out of my sight or in anyone elses care for even a nano second. At Ruby's age she may or may not conceive. You don't want to chance it though, because she's nowhere near full grown, so her body is not ready to bear a litter. Lord only knows what it will do to her own development. Chances are good she'll need an emergency c-section - or, better yet, an emergency spay to terminate the litter - but that involves greater risk (and expense) than a normal spay - why put her through that? An emergency c-section, unless you have a dedicated vet who specializes in reproduction? usually involves a trip to the nearest emergency clinic, where I'm guessing the c-section will cost you $1,500-2,500 and you'll be lucky if they don't kill your girl and all of her puppies. Well, maybe that's just the emergency clinic closest to me. They can't all be that incompetent. Sound scary? Well, it is for Ruby's sake. Let Mr Max go stay with a cousin for a few weeks and, if you want to maintain your sanity in the future, maybe get the snip-snip done while you're at it. Kristine |
| I paid $1500 for an emergency c-section on my Boxer 11 years ago. Not to mention the bills from the check ups before she had the pups, medication and stuff while she was in labor and before they decided to do the c-section and spay. And then the after bills, puppy shots, tail docking, dew claw removal.
We ended up selling the 5 pups for a total of $1,200 Needless to say we lost a lot of $$. So I guess I did end up paying for my free Boxer after all. |
| This is not how I planned to breed...my question should have been at the start I guess,"At this age are they capable of breeding?" I fully intended to do all the research to make sure everything is done right, I wanted to wait until after she was 2 years old...I am not saying I want to breed her now. I know she isn't old enough and her body can't take having a litter right now. I love our dogs and wouldn't want anything to happen to them and that is why I was asking the question so I can make sure she doesn't have a litter right now in her life. You all make really good points and I agree. |
| Ah, yes, I did take it as you wanting to know how to be careful. As I said in my post, separate addresses works
Here's are some links to facilitate your research: The Old English Sheepdog Club of America's code of ethics gives you a good idea of what should be expected to responsibly produce puppies: http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... 202000.htm Next, you study the breed standard. Make sure you understand what it means and have a clear idea of what you are trying to accomplish in terms of physical and mental soundness, good structure and type and so on: http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... mation.htm The Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) covers some of the inherited diseases all Old English Sheepdog breeders should be testing for. See http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=SD Also, go to the OESCA Health & Research site www.oeshealth.org to read up on many of the inherited diseases that can afflict the breed so you know what questions to ask your dogs' respective breeders to make sure you know which health risks are in their pedigrees, so you can in turn make sure that these two dogs can safely be bred to each other without major risks of producing puppyies with serious health problems. If they tell you none, dig deeper and ask for copies of applicable health clearances. You're not just breeding your girl and your boy, you're breeding everything that came before them, which is why it is so important to know what that is. Then you can take those pedigrees and go to www.offa.org (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) where you can verify that the dogs in your dogs' pedigrees have had their hips and eyes checked at a bare minimum. Since hip dysplasia has a polygenic mode of inheritance, you'll want to look not only at your dogs' parents and grandparents and so on, but also siblings of these dogs and what they have produced in terms of acceptable hips. You need to wait until they are both two years old to have all of their health clearances done anyway, so that will give you plenty of time to do all of this research and you'll need to make sure you have money set aside for the health testing and the cost of rearing/raising puppies, including emergency costs like an unexpected c-section. You also need to be prepared to take any of the puppies back at any point in their life - OES rescue is busy enough as it is with too many irresponsible breeders; you wouldn't want to add to their burden, of course. I think those are good starting points. Your dogs' breeders should be willing to serve as mentors and help you understand the breed standard, the health risks inherent in the breed, what testing they did to minimize the risks that your dogs would be carriers or affected and so on. Let me know if you need some references for good articles on basic canine genetics and I'll dig some up for you. It's fascinating reading. Kristine |
| Great tips, Mad Dog.
Another thing to add to the list of getting ready to breed would be to get a mentor to advise you. This mentor can be found through the OESCA website or at a show, and will be able to offer you important little details papers may not mention. He or she will also be able to evaluate your dogs and let you know what the good and bad qualities of each of them are. A mentor will be able to look at the bloodlines of your dogs and let you know if they both have 'funny' ancestors that shouldn't be blended together, stuff like that. I am always amazed when I talk with my breeder and she can take one look at a dog's name and tell me every single good and bad quality about that dog and the dog's parents and grandparents and siblings, so on. It is amazing what may lurk behind names that papers don't share. Oh - and about the separation issues. When I was young we had Jack Russel Terrier puppies. Our girl came into season so we kept them separated and had the boy neutered, planning to spay the female when she came out of season. Even after neutering, they managed to mate when we didn't see and apparently there were a couple swimmers left. Needless to say, we had a litter of pups. It was heartbreaking to find them all homes. Even though this was years and years ago we still know what happened to every single one of those puppies and we keep up-to-date with them all. If you are a breeder, you need to be able to do that with every single litter of puppies - and the bigger the dog usually the more expensive the vet bills if something goes wrong. Way to come here and get a start on some good advice - keep researching. |
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