Co-Ownership Question
I'm looking at getting a Corgi puppy but seem to be running up against a brick wall trying to find a breeder willing to sell a show prospect without a rigid co-ownership. The last breeder I spoke to required that the dog live with me and I pay all costs associated with the care and showing of the dog (which is fine, since I'd have to anyway), but she retains all breeding rights on males that she sells and has a clause in the agreement stating she is allowed to use her co-owned males on any bitch owned and co-owned by her, free of charge, as well as recieving 50% of any stud fees I received. There are utterly NO benefits to me co-owning a dog with this breeder. She pays for nothing and receives 50% of anything I make and can use the dog I train, show, trial and care for, for nothing as much as she wants to. I'm not out to make money (I wouldn't be in dogs if that were the case) but I think it's ridiculous that I pretty well have to keep paying for this dog over and over if he turns out well and is a popular sire. She also has another restriction about neutering her co-owned males that were actively being used in her breeding program, so even if I decided I was sick of dealing with being used and got him neutered, I would be breaking her contract. She might be reasonable enough to allow it, but who really knows until the situation happens. I decided to contact another breeder whose dogs I also liked, and who isn't particularly close to the first breeder, and questioned her on her contract. She got really curious, and without actually telling me what her contract consisted of, kept badgering me as to why I was so curious. When I finally told her of the other breeder's contract, and how I found it so restrictive, she basically attacked me for failing to see the considerable 'effort' breeders put into their puppies. She knows I've been involved in the dog fancy for over 15 years, and am the daughter of a breeder, so it's not like I don't know the investment breeders put into their dogs, so I was really upset by this. I didn't bother responding, but I think it's safe to assume she probably has similar clauses in her contract. I know I will feel resentful and used if I buy a dog from a breeder with a co-ownership agreement like the one the first breeder had, but I'm starting to wonder if this is just commonplace and a necessity if I want to buy a good show dog. Am I being unreasonable here? |
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| It sounds like a pretty normal contract to me.... |
| We just had a big discussion here last week about this same topic which you can find on this thread.
http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=8950 Basically, it is standard practice for top kennels to have this type of contract in place to ensure their kennel breeding line & reputation. 50% is standard stud fee compensation, and if you are new in the breed, most likely she will be putting you in contact with any bitch owners that want to breed to him, so it makes sense for the breeder to get a cut too. Regarding neutering at some point, etc., most breeders are pretty flexible once you have a relationship with them. |
If you don't feel comfortable co-owning under those terms, then go to a different breeder  I wouldn't feel comfortable with all that either, and don't think it's a good match for everyone. I didn't/wouldn't want that sort of obligation when owning my dog. |
Joahaeyo wrote: If you don't feel comfortable co-owning under those terms, then go to a different breeder
I wouldn't feel comfortable with all that either, and don't think it's a good match for everyone. I didn't/wouldn't want that sort of obligation when owning my dog.The contracts that were being referred to in this thread and the other are "show/breed" contracts, which are not the same as if you just want to have a dog as a pet/companion. The "pet" contracts generally are just spay/neuter contracts, contingencies for a breeder to get a dog back before it ends in a shelter, etc. |
| OK, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here...
What makes you think you'd be entitled to Stud your dog, getting the advantages of all the breeding history and experience of the breeder without giving them a cut? You'll be able to keep 100% of your first generation (or whatever contract you devise) if you go on to breed, and that dog will have YOUR kennel name on it (or your partner's kennel name), not theirs. Campaigning and breeding championship level dogs is very expensive and time consuming, and this is one way a top breeder is able to stay competitive as well as protect their reputation. Again, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. Nothing personal!  |
Ron wrote: OK, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here...
What makes you think you'd be entitled to Stud your dog, getting the advantages of all the breeding history and experience of the breeder without giving them a cut? You'll be able to keep 100% of your first generation (or whatever contract you devise) if you go on to breed, and that dog will have YOUR kennel name on it (or your partner's kennel name), not theirs. Campaigning and breeding championship level dogs is very expensive and time consuming, and this is one way a top breeder is able to stay competitive as well as protect their reputation. Again, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. Nothing personal! Alright Devil's Advocate.. See.. the thing is, I have no interest in breeding myself. Every breeder I've spoken to about this has heard my reasons for it. I love my dogs and participating with them in doggy events, and if a great dog came along, I have no opposition to him being used by approved bitches.
I would just expect that for all the work I put into campaigning, training and raising a good show dog, I get equal respect from my breeder. If I'm campaigning my dog and advertising his wins, HER name is the prefix, she's listed as the breeder, people wanting puppies just like him are going to go to her. Not to me, the person who doesn't want to involve herself in that. That might sound odd to some of you, but I know of 3 very successful people here in Canada who own males in breeds they will never breed, but enjoy having them as their pets and enjoy campaigning them. I'm in it to have fun with my dog. I'm out there working hard to gain her kennel and her dogs the recognition. I also pay for all the health clearances to ensure another generation of her breeding is clear of diseases and defects. In the performance ring I'm proving that her dogs are capable of being more than just a pretty face and that they can be great well-rounders. All of this costs her nothing and it's already incredibly beneficial to her. Is she were even to pay me a token to use the dog for subsequent uses I'm sure I'd feel better, and I'd love for her to give me input on what a suitable female is for him, but I don't think her advice is worth half of a stud fee when I'm already doing so much for her lines. As you said, campaigning and breeding dogs IS expensive, but the campaign trail to the top is more expensive than most -- since I'm the one footing that bill, I'd have no problem with her using him once, but using him an unlimited amount of times and getting half of any profits he is to make as a stud, is a problem I do have. She has a way to recoup some of her expenses back if she so desires. I'm not saying she's going to MAKE money, but by breeding her dogs she does pad some of the expenses incurred by breeding. There isn't any money to be made in the ring, so in order for me to exhibit I'm aware that I'm paying money just to get my dog noticed. It's the dog that she bred, and if people like him, they'll likely approach her about getting one of their own. I understand she's put in effort with her lines, and I appreciate that effort, I just don't wish to be taken advantage of. After all, who wants to feel used by someone they essentially need to have as a part of their lives? Sadly, this clause in her contract is 100% non-negotiable, so I will look elsewhere and hope that other breeders can think of a more fair solution to keeping their lines available to them. I know these breeders exist, I've seen their contracts in other breeds, and all I want is something that seems fair to both parties. And I don't think that's too much to ask, is it? |
VerveUp wrote: Joahaeyo wrote: If you don't feel comfortable co-owning under those terms, then go to a different breeder I wouldn't feel comfortable with all that either, and don't think it's a good match for everyone. I didn't/wouldn't want that sort of obligation when owning my dog.The contracts that were being referred to in this thread and the other are "show/breed" contracts, which are not the same as if you just want to have a dog as a pet/companion. The "pet" contracts generally are just spay/neuter contracts, contingencies for a breeder to get a dog back before it ends in a shelter, etc. And those clauses are understandable, no breeder wants to see one of their dogs in a shelter or bad situation. I can't say that I've ever seen a contract where the breeder didn't require you to contact them if you were unable to keep the dog so they could place them in a better situation. It's responsible. |
Devil's Advocate wrote: Showing and campaigning is all about the breeding (except for a few who do it just for the heck of it as a hobby). It's all about the future... future of your kennel.
Since you don't want to be a kennel, I can only imagine you just want to show a dog for the fun of it, and hobbies can be expensive. Your breeder's litter isn't your sole property. Find a great mate for your stud, take your pick of the litter, campaign him or her and then make your fortune dominating the sheepdog world! Or just go along with the system and take your 50%.  Anyway, join us as a member! We'd love to have your perspective around! |
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