What does "With Papers" mean exactly?
I no nothing about pure bred dogs as I always rescued my dogs in the past. I have always wanted a sheepdog scince I was a little girl. I LOVE THEM! My question is I have a down payment on one (and very worried now.) First of all I do not want to list the name of breeder (has already been with not such good news:() What does "Yes, they are registered with papers" mean? If the breeders arent registered on any site I can find.....how credible are these "papers?" Are all backyard breeders that have dogs with papers.....bad? I am confused. I have already visited the breeder and the facility, house, people were very nice, CLEAN and you can tell really LOVES these dogs and socializes, and spends so much time with them. They were honest about what they have done, and what has not been checked. (hip) They frankly told me they are able to give me the history from far back that shows no hip problems etc.... and that the price is reasonable because of not having the cost of the testing of the pups etc. THey feel because of family history on down was free of problems, the pups shouldn't come down with anything. If they can prove this (just by a piece of paper) is there any way I can look at this as a POSITIVE thing with some degree and feel "OK" about it? I have already fell in love with this girl 
I know what the answer is (back out and RUN!) and I appreciate it so much.....but I am being honest....I know myself and I do not think I will back out. I know....then WHY ASK! Well, I guess scince I am use to rescuing dogs, that is the difference for me. So....now that I have confused myself and everyone... 1) What are my chances if family history shows free of hip problems on down the line? Does this mean alot? 2)Do ALOT of people "get lucky " often when purchasing without doing your homework? These people have had 25 years exp. in the breed, and only 3 years exp. in breeding. Thanks so much to everyone. Please post your thoughts. This is the best forum I have seen and I wish I would have found it earlier. |
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| I know you don't want to say but we may have something in common here. I would pm you but since we're both "guests" I can't.
Would love to talk. Amy |
| Amy...how can we do this?
Can we post emails? |
| Why don't you register? Its free and easy and this is a great place to learn, share and commisserate - plus then you could PM each other with any private discussions. |
| Olivia,
Here's my e-mail. [edit: email address deleted] Feel free to e-mail me. The people on this list are sooooooooo helpful, too!! I found so much wonderful advice. Sincerely, Amy |
| THanks Valerie!!
You know....I thought I did register? I have a user name? |
Anonymous wrote: THanks Valerie!!
You know....I thought I did register? I have a user name? Is this Amy or Olivia? Either way, great! You just need to be sure and log in before you post. Looking at the member list, it looks like Olivia has joined. Yay! If you have lost your user name or password, Ron can help. |
| Amy..I emailed you.
Thanks! |
Anonymous wrote: Amy..I emailed you.
Thanks! OK then I am going to delete Amy's email address from the prior post to reduce the risk that spambots will flood your inbox. . . |
| ooops....this is Olivia...I see now. I will log in.
Thanks! |
| Most times "with papers" means the dogs are registered with AKC - American Kennel Club. This is the largest and most popular registry with most breeds in the US. This is however, no guarantee that the dog is healthy or sound. It just means both parents are registered, and so are the puppies.
There are several smaller registries showing up. Except for UKC, they seem of little value. My niece bought a pug puppy that was listed as "with papers" - turns out it was from one of these other groups. She had assumed it was with AKC and was very disappointed. Yes, you can get a healthy pup from people who don't test. That is how it always used to be before the technology allowed and made testing possible. The people who are committed to using the tools available to better the breed test. Those who don't care and just want to breed don't. |
| I have a rescue that had bad hips by the time she was 9 months old. Since you've always dealt with rescues, you're most likely willing to accept this possibility and provide the necessary care IF it should happen.
Quote: They frankly told me they are able to give me the history from far back that shows no hip problems etc.... and that the price is reasonable because of not having the cost of the testing of the pups etc. If they're so confident that there will be no hip problems, have them put it in writing along with what they will do if it occurs. Like refunding 3/4 of the purchase price and allowing you to keep the dog if hip dysplasia develops by a specified age. There are other health concerns besides hd with this breed though. Quote: What does "Yes, they are registered with papers" mean? Just because a dog has papers, as in AKC registration, does not mean it's a stamp of approval on the quality of a dog. It means yes it's a dog and it's supposed to be of the breed stated. My special little sheepie could have been AKC registered and I had contemplated this to prove the point... her littermates are all registered. http://oesusa.com/Cleft-Palate-Puppy/cl ... -puppy.htm Quote: Are all backyard breeders that have dogs with papers.....bad?
All backyard breeders are not "bad" but you definitely take a much bigger risk in purchasing from one. Responsible breeders take steps to prevent conditions known to occur within the breed PRIOR to breeding. This why it's important that you do your homework before you purchase... unless you're willing to accept a dog with challenges. 3 of my sheepies are from the same "backyard" breeder and they have WONDERFUL temperaments. Two have allergies and will be on meds for low thyroid for the rest of their lives... they are AKC registered. The third is my special needs sheepie with the cleft palate, harelip and is blind. It all depends on what you're really looking for in a dog. |
| I understand falling in love with a puppy very, very well.
I also have bought dogs from less than stellar breeders--my first OES was from a breeder I consider to be very reputable although she wouldn't pass muster with many here because she chose not to show. Other than that, there was nothing about her breeding program or way she chose and raised her dogs that would cause any tiny bit of alarm with even the most cautious on this board. He was a wonderful dog and free from health problems until the end of his life. My second OES was purchased from someone who was just starting out breeding OES and knew very little about them, as a breed. I bought a puppy, thinking of it as a rescue, really. Archie is a very healthy dog (which was a crap shoot--his mother's littermate had some medical issues and was deaf, one of the reasons the breeder shouldn't have been breeding). We've been very lucky. Archie is healthy and has always had a lovely temperment. Both of these dogs were purchased before I had internet access and so, I was pretty much on my own to find a breeder. I did so out of ignorance, had some ideas of what to look for and ask and struck gold with the first; with the second, she wasn't what she seemed from our phone conversations, but I was willing to take a chance since I knew I had no interest in breeding. I got lucky. Last spring, a series of family events made that spring the best time that was likely to come along to find a puppy. I had been looking hard. My first breeder hadn't bred dogs in years. I knew I didn't want to go back to the second one. We were looking into rescues and unfortunately, no dogs who were available were also deemed suitable to go to homes with other dogs or homes with small children. We no longer have small children but live in a neighborhood full of them, so this was a consideration. I wasn't patient enough to wait to hear from the breeder referal person--a mistake on my part and no reflection on her. I was very new to this site, as well. So, we found a breeder and while we love Sophie and Sherman, adopting littermates wasn't the only error we made. So far, Sherman seems absolutely free of any problems and has a wonderful temperment. Sophie has some physical problems which are relatively easy to deal with but I anticipate more--and more money spent. My bigger problem is with her temperment. She's coming along well, but I know we will always have to watch her tendancy to try to dominate. A huge blessing is that she absolutely adores children (as do all of our dogs) and is superbe with them--my biggest concern. I know I will have medical issues with her and that they will involve spending money. My hope is that they will not involve pain and disability for her. I can't complain about having to spend money (which may not happen) because it was I who was impatient and tied to a calendar. My big worry is for Sophie. She's a pill sometimes, but I am hoping hard that we don't have to deal with hip displasia or other serious hereditary conditions. So, it comes down to deciding whether you want to take this puppy because you love it and can give it a good home and are willing to assume the chance that you will be spending a lot of money on vet bills that you might not have to spend if you got a puppy from a more reputable breeder. You've done rescues before, and you seem fine with the risk. And I admire your willingness to take what comes. No doubt that the puppy deserves a good home and care. Right now, two young people I work with have recently purchased pug puppies with significant health problems. One will have to have surgery to correct a knee problem; the other will probably need some expensive medical treatment, too. Both bought with their hearts. I know one will follow through well with her dog. Unfortunately, this will cause her financial hardship. The other, imo, lacks the commitment and maturity and will likely complain loud about being cheated, although she took the puppy to a vet for a checkup before purchase and knew of the dog's problems. The flip side of this is whether you feel that buying a dog from this less than stellar breeder (as it seems you have some serious reservations yourself) you are encouraging poor breeding practices that can result in dogs with significant expensive, painful and disabling conditions that could be avoided by more careful, ethical breeding practices. I've been careless/foolish in the past, mostly out of naivite. I won't be making the same choice again. If I buy another puppy from a breeder (as opposed to a rescue/mixed breed), I will look hard at finding a reputable breeder--more for the sake of the puppy than for my pocketbook, although I am hardly a rich person. I think that acquiring a dog is a lot like acquiring someone you love: you need to engage both heart and head. You have to decide which is more important: heart or head, but if either one is flashing off huge warning bells, you should listen. |
| You guys are terrific. I have learned alot just now and fully understand what each of you have shared with me.
Thank you for such great knowledge and understanding! Olivia05 |
| oh.....6girls.....I LOVE the haircut you have on those two cuties. What is the term I would use at the groomer? Puppy cut?
Olivia05 |
| Hi Olivia-
I think their hair in that picture is probably a short version of a standard puppycut. http://oesusa.com/EmmaDarbyJune2007.jpg All 4 of mine are naked now... I clipped them super short for the summer a couple of weeks ago.  http://oesusa.com/Page110.html |
| 6girls....Those dogs are so cute I can't hardly stand it!!
I found a puppy and will get her Thurs. ...I can't wait. Thanks for posting those pics. |
| ooops....."CAN hardly stand it?"
Anyway....you know what I mean. THEY ARE SO CUTE! |
| I hope you'll post pictures so we can see your new baby!
Those two in the picture are actually an exception to what a lot of people say... they're littermates and have a great relationship. They'll be 4 come November... time flies by so fast. So while this breeder was labeled a backyard breeder, she and her husband got the temperament part of breeding by 110%. My vets have commented several times on how easy they are to work with. Best wishes to you and your new pup! Take lots of pictures because they grow so fast! |
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