when your OES has a tail?
Is this standard or just preference? Ours obviously has a regular tail. |
|
|
I think all OES are born with tails, most have their tails removed shortly after birth  .I believe in the olden days to show it was a working dog and so you would not be taxed the tails where docked. I think in some countrys it is now illegal to remove the tail. |
| In the US, docking the tail is the breed standard if you intend to show, otherwise you can do what ever you want. Just be sure there's nothing fragile on the coffee table. A happy sheepie with a tail can clear a coffee table with its tail in an instant. |
There is a great deal of disagreement about sheepies and tails. The "purist" will say that to meet breed standard the tail must be docked. Personally I like the tail and think you are very lucky to have a sheepie with one  |
George wrote: In the US, docking the tail is the breed standard if you intend to show, otherwise you can do what ever you want. Just be sure there's nothing fragile on the coffee table. A happy sheepie with a tail can clear a coffee table with its tail in an instant.
By all rights though, no reputable breeder would leave a tail on. They breed dogs to match a standard and leaving the tail on deviates from that. It doesn't make the dog any less of a dog to have the tail but it does say something about the breeder. |
ButtersStotch wrote: George wrote: In the US, docking the tail is the breed standard if you intend to show, otherwise you can do what ever you want. Just be sure there's nothing fragile on the coffee table. A happy sheepie with a tail can clear a coffee table with its tail in an instant. By all rights though, no reputable breeder would leave a tail on. They breed dogs to match a standard and leaving the tail on deviates from that. It doesn't make the dog any less of a dog to have the tail but it does say something about the breeder. I thought the standard in Europe was "tail on"? |
| It is thanks to the animal rights activists. Beware, it's coming to the US too. |
| Oh yes. Just yesterday, Mulligan and I were chatting and he was lamenting the loss of his tail. He misses it dearly, he was telling me (by rolling around on his back getting his belly rubbed). |
| Has Mulligan lost another part or two....or is he still equipped?
These guys don't get flustered about much of anything. The number of holes Harry has ripped in his side is amazing......."Mom, could you please lift this skin flap back up, it itches.........innumerable stitches later I'm still traumatized. I'm doing better with his punctures, but the rips are icky. He barrels under and thru shrubs to bark at neighbor's dogs or people walking along the road. |
teddy4 wrote: I am new to sheepies. We rescued ours. I didn't know about "bobtails."
Is this standard or just preference? Ours obviously has a regular tail. What part of the world are you in? Most OES's, even rescues, would have their tails bobbed at birth, if it is the standard in that part of the world. Mine was born "in rescue" so his wasn't bobbed. I know a very reputable breeder who doesn't always bob the tails. Plus she does a lot of rescue work locally. It is rare to find that mix, though. She showed her dogs at Westminister this year and is an absolute gem of a lady. Most of the breeders who don't bob in areas where they have to be boobed to show are not active in showing. That is a breeder that I would avoid. My other rescue dog has no tail. Either way is fine with me. I don't really find that Bosley's tail is in the way. We hardly notice it, except for getting in and out of a vehicle. We have to make sure it is tucked in when he is inside the van before we close the door.  |
Ron wrote: Oh yes. Just yesterday, Mulligan and I were chatting and he was lamenting the loss of his tail. He misses it dearly, he was telling me (by rolling around on his back getting his belly rubbed). 
Well I don't know about Mullidgan but every time Tasker looks at Ty's tail I can SEE the envy in his eyes!!!! |
Tasker's Mom wrote: ButtersStotch wrote: George wrote: In the US, docking the tail is the breed standard if you intend to show, otherwise you can do what ever you want. Just be sure there's nothing fragile on the coffee table. A happy sheepie with a tail can clear a coffee table with its tail in an instant. By all rights though, no reputable breeder would leave a tail on. They breed dogs to match a standard and leaving the tail on deviates from that. It doesn't make the dog any less of a dog to have the tail but it does say something about the breeder. I thought the standard in Europe was "tail on"? I suppose I should have said "in the United States and Canada." |
| When you think about it isn't it amazing that we are not all up in arms about the mutilation of OES, Dobs, Boxers etc. just so they will fit the man made breed standard |
jean wrote: When you think about it isn't it amazing that we are not all up in arms about the mutilation of OES, Dobs, Boxers etc. just so they will fit the man made breed standard
Some of us are quietly so.... |
| wow! I didn't realize I would generate such discussion! I am happy to know that other sheepies are proud to have their tails.
I had an Alaskan Malamute growing up and a Great Pyr for the first 8 years of my adult life. I miss her. She was our baby. Now we have Teddy. While I am new to sheepies and not familiar with breed standards, I am glad he has his tail. I have never understood why we still alter our furry friends to meet "standards." |
Bosley's mom wrote: teddy4 wrote: I am new to sheepies. We rescued ours. I didn't know about "bobtails." Is this standard or just preference? Ours obviously has a regular tail. What part of the world are you in? Most OES's, even rescues, would have their tails bobbed at birth, if it is the standard in that part of the world. Mine was born "in rescue" so his wasn't bobbed. I know a very reputable breeder who doesn't always bob the tails. Plus she does a lot of rescue work locally. It is rare to find that mix, though. She showed her dogs at Westminister this year and is an absolute gem of a lady. Most of the breeders who don't bob in areas where they have to be boobed to show are not active in showing. That is a breeder that I would avoid. My other rescue dog has no tail. Either way is fine with me. I don't really find that Bosley's tail is in the way. We hardly notice it, except for getting in and out of a vehicle. We have to make sure it is tucked in when he is inside the van before we close the door. I am still figuring out the profile section of the forum. I put our location but it isn't showing. I also tried to add a picture of Teddy and it was too big. We are in Georgia, US. You don't see too many OES or Pyrs around here. |
| There is plenty of debate as to the justifications for tail docking, but, historically, hunting/sporting dogs were docked to prevent tail injuries because they hunted in the brush and many sporting dogs have slender tails that are susceptible to injury in that setting. Working/protection dogs were cropped & docked to prevent a human opponent getting a handhold on their ears and tails. Fighting dogs were cropped & docked to prevent canine opponents getting a hold on the ears and tails. Over time, cropping and docking in those breeds became tied to breed standards in the show ring and that's why most of them are still cropped/docked.
Anything after 3 days old is an amputation, not a docking. Ask your sons and husbands if they remember the pain associated with their circumcisions. If any one of them remembers it, I'll wholeheartedly begin supporting all docking bans. |
| Hi Teddy and everyone. I live in Tennessee and you don't see very many OES here either. My dog is a bobtail but it does seem kind of cruel but I am far from the expert...
I would like to see a picture of your OES with a tail! |
Bosley's mom wrote: jean wrote: When you think about it isn't it amazing that we are not all up in arms about the mutilation of OES, Dobs, Boxers etc. just so they will fit the man made breed standard Some of us are quietly so.... I'm with ya!  |
teddy4 wrote: We are in Georgia, US. You don't see too many OES or Pyrs around here.
Hi teddy4 We are in Georgia as well Atlanta
Where are you? I so agree...not many sheepies around here 
Diane |
| We are in Augusta. I feel like we have just been so blessed to have Teddy. He is such a good boy and seems to love us just as if he has been a part of the family his whole life. I will get some pictures posted soon. I think I tried putting one up but the file size was too big. Thank you all for your comments. I really enjoy reading about everyones sheepies. |
| i live in wales and have had my oes for 3 months when i first got her i didn't even think about the tail it was only when i took her to the vet for her first check and he told me that her tail had been docked - with scissors - probably by the farmer i got her from, with no tidying up on the end she was very lucky not to get an infection, it made me feel sick, it is illegal over here - thank god! |
| Here in Europe, several country has for a long time no had sheepdogs
with tails. In Scandinavian and Norway it is 15 years since it become forbidden. We are so use to it that we even didn't think about the tail any more  |
| I am not used to seeing them with tails...what is a bobtail with a tail. I love their little tailless butts and hope we can keep them that way here. It IS the breed standard, anything else is just a newer modification. Any reputable breeder will have it done with the dewclaws...we don't call that mutilation do we. It certainly isn't cruel to remove them...and it's not like ear cropping...that one is a bit tougher. |
| With or without a tail there all still sheepies.
A lot of countries have absolutely no choice in the matter now. So you have to ask yourself, can you imagine not having that personality plus breed in your life because there is an extra appendage hanging off the butt? In Australia, the ban has been in since 2004, I prefer a bobtail, but my next will have a tail, as I have absolutely no choice in the matter and I just cannot imagine not sharing my life with a breed that I love with all my heart. We had a huge decline in numbers since the ban, breeders saying never ever going to have a sheepie with a tail. Now that is changing as the bobtails here grow older and younger ones with tails now, as I said there still all sheepie and the breed we all adore with or without a tail. We are still fighting this issue here and if it ever changes in the future, well back to docking for a bobtail, in the meantime we still love the breed and what they share with us, a wonderful, fun, loving breed. England the mother country of the breed lost there battle this year to dock OES, the dog that won best of breed at one of the biggest dog shows in the world "Crufts" in England was a tailed sheepie. It is spreading world wide, New Zealand has just deferred it for another 12 months and it will probably come in there later next year, it is like a tsunami spreading world wide, so just be aware it is happening everywhere and it is a hard battle fought to win, we spent over 12 years here fighting this battle and still ongoing, against the AR activists to try and keep docking of traditionally docked breeds happening. It is starting to rear it's ugly head in the states too. As I said with or without a tail, they still are a wonderful, loving breed that I will always have the pleasure & joy of having in my life |
| Ted 12 months and George 13 weeks, both with tails...couldn't imagin em without...we will be seeing a lot more in the U.K. Keep them waqgging |
| Nothing beats the happy thump of a tail!!! |
| I realize this is an old post, but I was researching something earlier and came across a few interesting things (one of which had to do with neutering/spaying and I posted it in that thread), but here is what the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA)'s Animal Welfare Policy states regarding tail docking and ear-cropping:
Policy statements Ear Cropping and Tail Docking (Current as of June 2005) Ear cropping and tail docking in dogs for cosmetic reasons are not medically indicated nor of benefit to the patient. These procedures cause pain and distress, and, as with all surgical procedures, are accompanied by inherent risks of anesthesia, blood loss, and infection. Therefore, veterinarians should counsel dog owners about these matters before agreeing to perform these surgeries. I was sort of surprised considering how many dogs have tail docking and ear cropping as their standard. I personally have not seen any cases where there were negative long-term effects from docking or cropping done immediately after birth, but I imagine if it were done improperly, it could really be torture to the animal. Both of my sheepies came to me already docked, but if I had a choice, knowing that I'll never "show" them, I would likely opt to not have it done. I read somewhere that some "Bobtails" are actually born without tails... has anyone here ever actually witnissed this in any of their litters? |
IheartStella wrote: I read somewhere that some "Bobtails" are actually born without tails... has anyone here ever actually witnissed this in any of their litters?
I read that too! Bobtails are born without tails, and OES are born with tails, and then have them "docked." I think they just say "docked" because it doesn't sound as awful as "chopped off."
I tried to find out if they're given any anesthesia, but I didn't hear, and maybe nobody wanted to tell me. I can't imagine that it would be too expensive for the puppies little bodies. I told my husband I would be willing to pay for the anesthesia for the whole litter of our breeder's puppies! (She had already done it though, before I could find out about what happens). It's sad for boys, too. I used to volunteer in the nursery at a hospital, and they nurses told me they only apply a topical anesthesia for circumcision. I am going to have a hard time with that if we have a son someday. |
IheartStella wrote: I read somewhere that some "Bobtails" are actually born without tails... has anyone here ever actually witnissed this in any of their litters?
No, a dog born without a tail would be genetically flawed. They are supposed to have tails.. so they can be removed, lol. |
1st Time OES Mommy wrote: It's sad for boys, too. I used to volunteer in the nursery at a hospital, and they nurses told me they only apply a topical anesthesia for circumcision. I am going to have a hard time with that if we have a son someday.
If they do it before 24 hours old it's very easy. Both my boys were under a day, were asleep when it started, and still asleep when it ended, and never knew it happened. All they need is to wait until they're asleep, use the topical numbing cream, and snip. It seriously was nothing at all. Keep the area clean for several days and it's over. Nothing to worry about. Sorry, that's my only contribution to this thread because I know nothing about the docking of tails. |
| Docking is when it is done under 3 days, after that then it is amputation.
Under 3 days two ways it can be done, first one is banding, that has to be done within 12 hours of birth. A little band is put on the tails and it just shrivels up and drops off. Or with a vet, a numbing agent is put on the base of the tail and the vet then docks it and a little stich is put in. Dew claw removal is worse then docking but a neccessity especially for working or long coated breeds so no danger of them ripping or tearing them out on something later in life or when they are being groomed, also stops people having to remember to trim the dew claw nail so it does not grow into the side of the leg and cause problems there. Under 3 days there pain receptors are not fully developed and they don't feel a thing. Both procedures for docking the pups feel nothing. That is why there is a strict protacol on the age for docking. Later on it is cruel and it is an amputation there as the pup is older and the receptors are developed. Now the oes does carry a natural bob gene, very rare, but it apparently does appear in a litter from time to time. It might be one pup with a natural bob in the entire litter or a 1/2 or 3/4 length tail due to the gene. I have not seen a natural born bob myself, but I have heard of it occuring over the years. Pretty rare it happening but the gene is there for it to occur. |
| I don't want to get into the "to dock or not to dock" discussion. I think it is cruel. My opinion....not everyone's , but it is mine..
Quote: Under 3 days there pain receptors are not fully developed and they don't feel a thing. Both procedures for docking the pups feel nothing.
Sorry, Lisa. Let's not fool ourselves. They feel the pain. If they did not feel anything they would not be looking to get to the warmer places in thier bed, to find mommy or the other pups to get warm against. They feel cold...and pain. Pinch a paw and hear the pup squeal. |
| I don't want to get into a debate about docking or not, each to their own beliefs there. Here is a link for you to read nicole.
http://www.cdb.org/fritsch.htm |
| Isn't it amazing when we can debate without debating? |
Ron wrote: Isn't it amazing when we can debate without debating?
If anyone is interested there is a docking video on the above link, the banding of a litter of Boxer pups |
Bosley's mom wrote: Sorry, Lisa. Let's not fool ourselves. They feel the pain.
That same argument could go the other way. You could be fooling yourself into thinking they do because you would expect them to. |
Didn't find exactly what you're looking for? Search again here:
Custom Search
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|