Update on us getting a puppy from Addison Acres............
So, he agreed to call the breeder. She told him that the parents of "our" puppy's grandparents had the testing done on them but she couldn't test the parents' yet because they have to be about two and a half to three years old?? Then she told him that she has never had anyone call and tell her one of their puppies has had a problem, etc. I see right through all of that but my husband thinks I'm being really crazy about this. Anyway, it caused a HUGE fight and ruined our evening. I don't want to be blind about this. He thinks I research everything to death but I feel I'm just trying to be careful. I take this seriously, as if we're adopting a child. That's what I know our sheepdog will be to our family and I don't want to mess up. Don't know where to go from here.............. Thanks for all of your help and advice, though. AMy |
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| I understand that your husband may be a bit irritated with you "researching stuff to death", I myself am the same way (I'm a Scientist, it's in my nature), and it does annoy my boyfriend at times, but in this case, it's imperative that you not only do your research, but that you follow your instinct and the great advice you've been getting from here.
I have a wonderful Sheepie girl named Stella, and I love her with all my heart, but she has numerous issues that could have all been avoided had the previous owners done their homework. Stella was a rescue, so I got her "as is - no warranty". But if I were looking to buy a new puppy, there is NO WAY I would buy one from someone who did not have the parents completely checked and certified, and who did not offer health guarantees. It's possible to get a healthy dog with a great personality through a breeder such as the one you're describing, but it's merely by chance, and quite frankly, it's just not worth the gamble. You're not just buying a dog, you're investing in a new member of your family, for whom you will be responsible for the next 10-15 years. Having certification against certain genetic ailments can help provide you with some peace of mind, and can save you from outrageous medical expenses later. What's $300 more for a great dog with a complete health history compared to a "discount dog" who could have horrible health issues and need constant vet visits, medication, and eventually need to be euthanized due to pain and suffering? Your husband may have just been overwhelmed by what he felt was you being a bit to "obsessive", and that's OK. Just try calming down and taking a break for a little bit, then talking with him again, only try to remain as logic-minded and even-keel as possible. You could even make a list of benefits VS. risks, and you'll see that the only benefit (saving $300 now), is FAR outweighed by the risks (too umerous to even count). I think you already know what the smarter choice would be, but regardless of what puppy you decide to buy, you are definitely doing the right thing by seking advice from others who know the breed. I have limited experience with Sheepies (Stella being my first and only), but there are wonderful people here who can truly make all the difference in the world. Best of luck!! |
| I know there are some tests that you do need to wait on. A good breeder should not be offended by your concerns but more that happy to assure you that the puppy is healthy.
If the breeder is getting too defensive over your concerns I would personally view that as a red flag. Aquiring a puppy is a LONG TERM investment, you will have your dog longer than most people have their cars. A man would not purchase a car without a great deal of thought and research so why would you put any less effort into a puppy. Maybe you can make your husband see it from that perspective. |
Tasker's Mom wrote: I know there are some tests that you do need to wait on. A good breeder should not be offended by your concerns but more that happy to assure you that the puppy is healthy.
If the breeder is getting too defensive over your concerns I would personally view that as a red flag. Aquiring a puppy is a LONG TERM investment, you will have your dog longer than most people have their cars. A man would not purchase a car without a great deal of thought and research so why would you put any less effort into a puppy. Maybe you can make your husband see it from that perspective. Maybe it's just me, but if a dog is too young for genetic testing, aren't they too young to be breeding? |
| I don't know the answer to that, maybe Willowsprite or someone more "in the know" can address that. |
| Yes - to the genetic testing. All the reputable breeders that I know don't breed until the testing is done and the health clearances come back.
The ones who breed without testing are bad enough. The ones who breed YOUNG dogs without testing are the ones who really scare me. At least by waiting until the dogs are older, if they have genetic faults - behavioral or physical - they may show up. To know nothing of your dog's history, and then breeding them before they are adults, is a huge gamble. Those are the ones who know the market value of an OES and are going for the $$$$$. Not a love of the breed and a committment to improving them. If money is part of your husbands arguement, perhaps a rescue dog would be the route to go? It may be worth checking into. We have 2 rescues at the moment, and they are just as bonded to us as the rest! (perhaps even more - my Simon is totally a mommie's boy and I got him 2 yrs ago at age 6). He's the basset in my avatar. |
IheartStella wrote: Tasker's Mom wrote: I know there are some tests that you do need to wait on. A good breeder should not be offended by your concerns but more that happy to assure you that the puppy is healthy. If the breeder is getting too defensive over your concerns I would personally view that as a red flag. Aquiring a puppy is a LONG TERM investment, you will have your dog longer than most people have their cars. A man would not purchase a car without a great deal of thought and research so why would you put any less effort into a puppy. Maybe you can make your husband see it from that perspective. Maybe it's just me, but if a dog is too young for genetic testing, aren't they too young to be breeding? Lol. I believe you answered your own question there! Absolutely, you shouldn't breed until you have the right tests done. If you can't have the tests done, obviously there's no way to know if any problems exist and if you should breed. |
| That's what I was thinking about. I actually wondered if she was breeding too early but I'm not a breeder so I just wasn't sure.
I think I just need to have my husband read more responses from all of you. I think that there are too many red flags, as if one isn't enough for me. I talked to another breeder in Missouri this morning and she asks $800.00 for her dogs and she offers guarantees and talked to me alot about her dogs. She also has a waiting list so that seemed positive to me to. Whereas, the other people actually mentioned us maybe buying to of their dogs because we were having a hard time choosing............. Amy |
| Hip Certifications through OFA can be done when the dog is 2 years of age. Eye certifications through CERF can be done at any age, and have to be re-checked on a yearly basis. Here in Canada our hips are certified through OVC, and these can be done at 18 months of age. In my opinion, no dog should be bred without hip and eye certifications. Although it is good to hear the grandparents were certified and someone in the past did responsibly breed where testing before breeding is concerned,the parents still must have their certifications before breeding. There is just no valid excuse in my opinion not to have them done. |
| I know how much you both want a sheepie pup... there is nothing in this world like this wonderful breed. We were lucky that the two sheepies we purchased from a backyard breeder had wonderful temperaments.
The reality is that this breed is known to have certain health issues... one is relatively easy to treat... others are life threatening or debilitating. The two sheepies we purchased do have some allergy issues and are both on medication for hypothyroidism. We went into purchasing sheepies in the wrong manner... we were uneducated in how to purchase a dog... we wanted a sheepie NOW. We had only had one dog prior to this and she was a sheepie-mix rescue purchased locally. Unless you are willing to accept the cost and possible heartache of genetic health issues, I beg you to do your homework before you purchase. I know you are very anxious to get a pup... I've been exactly where you are except it was during a time of grief (we had just lost our sheepie-mix to cancer). But I wish you could come to my house for just an hour to see what can happen if breeding is not done properly... We purposely adopted two special needs Old English Sheepdogs (along with the two sheepies we purchased from a backyard breeder). Panda (previously known as Madison) has hip dysplasia and low thyroid. The low thyroid is easy to treat with a little pill divided into two doses daily. The biggest problem is that by the time she was 9 months old her hips were basically ruined. These are the x-rays prior to her entering rescue... there is supposed to be a cup that hold the ball of the femur... she has almost none. http://oesusa.com/MadisonXray.jpg I wish I could post a video showing her run... she has an off-gait that reminds me of an off kilter butterfly swimming stroke. She has more of a challenge getting to her feet. She uses her front legs to compensate for what's lacking in the back end. She does not require surgery at this time but it's definitely a possibility in the future. The rescue offered to help pay for the surgery if it's needed. We were her 3rd home by the time she was 10 months old not including the month she spent at a Humane Society in New Jersey. She also had severe separation anxiety and a bladder defect that was surgically corrected in February of this year. If you had the choice, would you purchase a puppy destined to be this dog? Our other special needs sheepie has a very noticeable birth defect. She was born with a cleft palate, harelip and is blind. Again, we wanted to adopt her from the moment she was born. There are defects that are not so apparent on the surface... defects that can be prevented or at least the chances lessoned by careful breeding and pretesting prior to breeding. My heart will always be in rescue but not everyone chooses this route. And really... if you're buying a puppy you are most likely expecting a healthy dog. A question to ask yourself is would you be able to afford or want to pay for surgery to correct a defect? Or medical treatment in order to prolong life. Please visit the following address and familiarize yourself with conditions that can affect this breed so you can go about buying a puppy with a lot more knowledge than I had... note that deafness and allergies are also challenges known to affect this breed. http://www.oeshealth.org I should also mention that I give monthly allergy shots to two of my sheepies. In the perfect world, breeders would strive to produce the healthiest puppies possible... they would end breeding lines when a genetic health condition appears... they wouldn't purposely bring pups into this world that are destined to suffer from conditions that could have been preventable through pretesting and responsible breeding. Sorry to be long winded  but I am so passionate about this breed. No matter what you both decide, just go into this with your eyes wide open so you make the best choice for you. |
| From, one man to another: very bluntly, sir, if you get a sheepdog from someone who hasn't had the parents certified for hips and is willing to let you have the pup at less than 8 weeks, you're playing Russian Roulette with this breed. Sheepdogs are notorious for hip problems (as are many other large breeds) unless you don't mind doctoring your lame dog when it gets to be 5 or 6 years old. And if you want a dog that is a pain in the butt socially, then take it from its litter before it is fully socialized (8 weeks). Your choice. |
| I'm sorry that this supposed to be fun event is turning into a streeful one for you...
And as an outsider, to me it sounds like this might not be the breeder to choose, but that's just from reading about it. Even if there are genetic problems with the parents, it doesn't necessarily mean you'll get a problem sheepdog, but it does significantly raise the chances. My Barney came from a puppy mill (as far as I know) from Missouri (I've always been told to watch out for Missouri in particular in regards to puppy mills). We got Barney when he was 6 months old. Within a month I noticed that he was sort of limping and just not running around like my parents' sheepdog did when she was a puppy. So when he had him neutered we had his hips tested and they weren't looking good. So we'll probably be in for surgery in the future... Oh, and I think the 'typical' going price for a sheepdog puppy (non-show) is around $1500, so I would think anything drastically less than that would be cause to think. Good luck! |
| After all the discussion, I went to their website. I looked at the 5 dogs listed that they use for breeding. All are 2 yrs old.
Abby and Izzy - females - littermates born 6/17/05, Izzy has pups. Hunter - born 8/28/05, male - has same father as Abby and Izzy. Welly - born 4/28/05, male - different parents than the above 3. Alex - born 12/27/05, female - same parents as Welly I think this is looking shady, or at the least, undesirable. They use dogs that are related to each other, they breed them young, and in the case of Welly and Alex - they bred the mom back the next heat cycle after a litter. Very hard on the mom. And although the names of the dogs' parents are different - they could very well also be related to each other - even littermates or full siblings from a different litter. OES are slow developers - a 2 yr old is still a young dog. Any genetic behavior issues or problems would not even be evident in many cases. They usually surface as the dog matures. I personally would not get a dog from this place. JMO |
| Amy, hi! Please join our group as a member - it is
free and that way we can send you private messages. Sometimes it's better to PM than to ruffle feathers on the forum. There is so much info available here and you will get more out of the forum if you join. This is a great group of people! As for your situation... I would not just trust that the grandparents had the tests done, the parents must be tested. Although that doesn't ensure your pup will be perfect, it is the best chance you'll get. I also wouldn't just trust the breeder's word, you need to verify it. Ask for their vet info and tell them that you will be calling to verify. If that makes them anxious, you have reason to be suspicious. Lots of people don't research nearly enough, and sometimes it results in a puppy horror story. Some people seem to think 'it won't happen to me' and just go ahead with it anyway. It is so heartbreaking to read the stories of people who have gone through that. There are many posts here in the medical/nutrition section. Take a few minutes and read some of them - and maybe you could share that with your husband. Aside from trying to trying to stop these disreputable breeders we are trying to help you avoid a heartbreak of your own. (In case I missed it in another post,) You might want to start your search over from the beginning with this site: http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica.org/ There is breeder info there, and at the very least they have signed a code of ethics. Good place to start, anyway. I hope you find yourself a happy healthy puppy, but do be patient. Though you may have to wait, and it is really hard it's for the best. Shellie |
Yikes - GOOD LUCK. I posted in your original question and I second what has been said above. I would go to the OESCA website and even if there aren't puppies available in your area right now perhaps you will be able to talk to a reputable breeder in the area who can sit down with you and your husband and relate what you should be looking for in a puppy. It is really neat to get "the scoop" from someone who dedicates his or her life to the promotion of well-bred, happy, and healthy sheepdogs. By listening to the breeder with your husband, you can both see the prime issues and learn to be advocates for the OES in your own area. AND this person will probably know of a health-certified litter somewhere around. It's very worth it!  |
| "I think this is looking shady, or at the least, undesirable. They use dogs that are related to each other, they breed them young, and in the case of Welly and Alex - they bred the mom back the next heat cycle after a litter. Very hard on the mom."
Now I can sit by and read a lot of this talk and shrug it off because I know these people and how they do business. However when accusations such as these come forth I feel I must respond. I do not run Addison Acres nor have I ever made a penny off of any of their puppy sales. I do happen to know for a fact that Alex has only had one litter of puppies. So explain to me how she has been bred back the next heat cycle after a litter. I also happen to know that none of the related dogs have ever been bred with one another. Wellington is the father of Izzy and Abbies litter, and Hunter is the father of Alex lone litter of 3 puppies. I suggest some of you actually contact the people at addison acres and ask them some questions about their breeding program before you start hurling accusations about poor breeding practices. Oh wait I forgot, this is the internet where people take broad largely uninformed swipes at other people on anonymous message boards. |
| Actually "Common Sense", as the guest here it is YOU who is the anonymous person posting, and you don't know anything about whom you're taking the broad uninformed swipe.
Whether or not got sheep's opinions in this particular case are accurate or not, she is a fine person, known personally to many here and is a valued member of the oes.org community. |
Common Sense wrote: "I think this is looking shady, or at the least, undesirable. They use dogs that are related to each other, they breed them young, and in the case of Welly and Alex - they bred the mom back the next heat cycle after a litter. Very hard on the mom."
Now I can sit by and read a lot of this talk and shrug it off because I know these people and how they do business. However when accusations such as these come forth I feel I must respond. I do not run Addison Acres nor have I ever made a penny off of any of their puppy sales. I do happen to know for a fact that Alex has only had one litter of puppies. So explain to me how she has been bred back the next heat cycle after a litter. I also happen to know that none of the related dogs have ever been bred with one another. Wellington is the father of Izzy and Abbies litter, and Hunter is the father of Alex lone litter of 3 puppies. I suggest some of you actually contact the people at addison acres and ask them some questions about their breeding program before you start hurling accusations about poor breeding practices. Oh wait I forgot, this is the internet where people take broad largely uninformed swipes at other people on anonymous message boards. According to the Addison Acres website, the mom of both Alex and Welly was bred two heat cycles in a row. Welly's mom is Miss Daisy Mae XIII and he was born 4.28.05. Alex's mom is Miss Daisy Mae XIII and he was born 12.27.05. I don't know if Miss Daisy Mae XIII belongs to Addison Acres but the point was that kind of back to back breeding is hard on dogs. I don't have any information about any of the other statements. I just wanted to clarify that one point. |
Ron wrote: Actually "Common Sense", as the guest here it is YOU who is the anonymous person posting, and you don't know anything about whom you're taking the broad uninformed swipe.
Whether or not got sheep's opinions in this particular case are accurate or not, she is a fine person, known personally to many here and is a valued member of the oes.org community. Just because you are a member here that does not make you any less anonymous to the people whom you are actually speaking about. Really though, I am not here to debate the personal worth of got sheep. Nor was I speaking specifically about got sheep, there are may people I could have quoted. I simply want to say that these are good people who I know personally and have the best interest of their dogs in mind. I do know that most of the breeding info they have gotten is directly from their vet as to what is an acceptable age to breed, how old the puppies have to be to go to their home and so on. I also know they have never bred back to back heat cycles, or related dogs. Rather than ramble on about their breeding program I suggest you all actually go to the source. Their e-mail and home phone numbers are readily available on their website to any and all who have questions. Adam |
Adam wrote: Rather than ramble on about their breeding program I suggest you all actually go to the source. Their e-mail and home phone numbers are readily available on their website to any and all who have questions. Adam Thanks, but I would rather spend time contacting breeders who test their breeding stock for possible genetic problems at the appropriate age, show thier dogs in dog shows to prove they are "worthy" of producing offspring, and let their puppies go only to fully screened home and on a non-breeding contract. And those are the minimum requirements that I would have of any breeder. I wouldn't recommend or waste my time with anyone else. But they still can be nice people.... |
| My name is Ken. My wife and I decided to get into breeding OES a few years ago. Right now we own 6 OES. The oldest is Annie and she is 12 1/2. We purchased her in March of 1995. We had another OES before her and she passed at 11 just before we moved to St. Louis.
We love these dogs and that is our only motivation for breeding them. We have tried to do everything possible to be responsible in our program and all of our dogs are on site and are also our family pets. They all sleep in the house and I can assure anyone that our kennel is extremely clean and since we have 6 dogs we do switch them out from time to time. The also have lots of room to run here as we have 7 acres. We are aware that Abbie, Izzy, and Hunter all share a common father. While I also understand that line breeding is OK, I do not feel experienced enough to try that at this time. I do not own Daisy Mae and I would never breed my dogs on consecutive heats. I do know that there has never been any problems with the hips of any of the parents but certainly I do plan to cert. my dogs now that they are of age. While we do not list any specific health guarantee we certainly will refund the purchase price and take back any dog that is not satisfactory to the buyer. I guess all of this started over someone asking an honest question about paying only 500 for one of my dogs. We try to provide good dogs to buyers and we also insist on meeting buyers or spending time on the phone with them if they are not able to come here. All of our dogs are here so anyone who purchases a dog from us is welcome to see any of our dogs. We didn't go into this business to make a lot of money as the vet bills, advertising costs, puppy pads, goats milk etc. certainly are not cheap. We put in a lot of labor taking care of all of our adult dogs and my wife stays home and takes care of the puppies. For her this is just about a 24 hr. a day job. We do it because we love the dogs and we love to make people happy when they buy one. We would never let a dog go that the vet did not clear. Our phone # and our e-mail address are out on our web site and anyone who wants to contact us to get any of these concerns addressed is welcome to contact us. I can also give you the names of several people who have purchased dogs from us who would be happy to talk to you about their experience buying a dog from us. |
| Welcome Ken,
There are as many opinions on how to breed responsibly as there are breeders, and I appreciate your input. We try EXTREMELY hard to be polite in our conversations here; sometimes certain subjects are hard to do that, but we always try. Please consider joining us here as a member. We can discuss your program and see if you can help us to better understand your ideas. I'm sure others will try to help you understand theirs. I think this is a great place to end this particular article. |
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