Thank you all so much
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| Wow, sorry to hear about all of your resentment. Perhaps the reason the other training methods didn't work for your dog, is that he could sense your underlying impatience & frustration? Sorry to hear that the behaviors got so out of control, that your only resort was to choke chain him to get what you wanted. Glad you found a solution, and didn't just dump him off at your local shelter to deal with all of the unwanted behaviors he learned in your household. |
| I've frequently told people to get help from a professional trainer BEFORE a problem becomes well rooted.
But this means PAYING for advice and not seeking free advice from a message board. 
A professional trainer I would think has already provided this warning (I'VE used 3 professional trainers with my pack)- * A choke chain is a training device... it is NOT meant to be worn without supervision because it's a choking hazard (meaning you might come home to find your dog dead because it hung itself). * Make sure the collar is being used properly so you don't create a mean dog or physically harm the dog's neck resulting in expensive vet bills to correct a problem created by someone using the collar inappropriately. Do your own online research... search Google using the keyword phrase- choke chain dog training to discover the dos and don'ts of choke collars. http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Conten ... &A=203&S=1 http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/hawgood1.htm The bottom line as always is DO NO HARM. Just a side note but it never ceases to amaze me how people hide behind an anonymous login when they submit a post like this. |
Quote: Try offering visitors to this site a balance of training information and maybe it could become a little more legitemate in the eyes of alot of people. People who dont dress their animals like people ........
People who don't dress their dogs are weird.  |
| It is not the training that is the problem, here, but the understanding of why it works. That is the part that you are missing. It sounds like the dog is confused and getting mixed signals, so has no idea how to act.
I use only postive methods, and only hang out with folks with similar beliefs. Anyone I know who has put in the apprpriate time and effort into this way all have well behaved manageable dogs. I feel sorry for your dog. I am sure he will not be happy expecting to be a robot, out of fear of being hurt, for acting like a dog. Seriously, maybe you would be better off with a stuffed animal? Or one of those robot dogs, that don't think and just do whatever you ask. He is a living bretahing anmila with his own needs...that are not the same as yours. But on the other hand, I hope you are happy with your miserable. submissive, frightened, unpredictable dog you will now have obeying your every command. Until he bites someone... |
| I have only seen results with positive reinforcement with this breed and gentleness. good luck with your training and keep the dog your friend. |
| The original post was long and had no breaks. So, I've arbitrarily broken it into sections to respond to, and have chosen representative portions of the original post so that everyone will know which part of the post I'm talking about. This is kind of a long post, so pull up your lazy-boy, grab some popcorn and hold on tight.
Quote: ... whilst our new dog jumped like a jungle animal on guests , bit the wife and 17 year old son constantly, jumped on furniture, barked incessantly, and generally did whatever he wanted, we hung in there hoping all these new "training" methods would work, trying them all, ignoring bad behavior, praising the good, subsituting a chew toy when he wants to maul a guest, well guess what we got? A 13 month old boy that has no respect for anything or anyone OK, so the first training method you tried didn't work FOR YOU or YOUR DOG. Not a problem, you could have switched to another method. You cannot blame anyone on this forum for you not realizing that the training techniques you chose were ineffective, or for you not choosing to change techniques earlier. Just like every person is different and learns in a different way, every dog is different and learns in a different way. If your dog is biting people constantly (which, I hope, was an exaggeration), that should be an indication that something needs to change. Now that your training has changed, I trust the biting is also under control. Remember, at 13 months, you're still dealing with a puppy (more like a child, less like a teenager), albeit a large, strong, heavy one who still has some maturing and growing to do and can't be expected to listen perfectly all the time. Quote: The wife and I were at a point where she said the dog would have to be sent to a shelter or a foster home unless something changed, and changed right now. So, after alot of thought, i called a trainer , had a long talk with her and was pleased to hear that she didnt employ any treats in her training[ these only serve to make my dog crap his brains out anyway] and very much believed in good old fashioned "heeling" , use of a choke chain for control and correction, among other things.....she didnt believe in "ignoring" an animal that is misbehaving or "bribing" him with food to act a certain way. I'm glad that you realized at some point that your chosen training method was ineffective and called in a professional to get the proper advice. It's unfortunate that it got to the point where you had to choose between changing training techniques and rehoming your dog. I'm glad you chose the former and it worked out. There's a lesson here for a lot of the people who come to this board to post that they need to rehome their dogs... The use of correction is definitely a good training tool in some cases, as is reward. It's a matter of balance between the two and choosing which is right in which situation. You can't correct a dog for not doing something he doesn't know how to do. Just like you shouldn't reward a dog for not doing something she does know how to do. I use treats in my training, in order to teach a behaviour, and as a reward for a job well done. I use corrections in my training as reinforcement that my directives must be followed. The key (I believe) is to correct only once the dog has shown that it understands the command and knows what actions is required. My corrections range from verbal (No, Wrong) to physical (touch, leash correction, physical placement - as for a sit or down), dependent on the situation. Quote: its what i should have done a long time ago, listen to my heart and know that discipline and order , just like in the dog world , are what he needed. ... No more for us, we even called the vet that had recommended the positve training course first before the good old fashioned method trainer and told them that they are probably doing their customers a disservice and wasting their money, and ill continue to recommend this type of trainer for all of my friends, or until some new methods that i read about or research come around that actually work. So Thanks people, but NO thanks. Part of the problem is that you chose to take the advice of a community of people with a particular love for a particular breed of dogs without seeking the advice of a professional trainer. You chose to ignore your misgivings and stick with that advice, even when the techniques had proven ineffective. This community has a variety of people involved - trainers, ex trainers, breeders, enthusiasts, owners, potential owners, jokers and miscreants. Not all advice is equal, and anything you read should be taken with a grain of salt (weigh the pros and cons, look at where the advice comes from, the bias of the poster, etc...), I'm happy to hear that you'll be suggesting to all of your friends that they enroll their dogs in training. A well trained dog is a happier, friendlier dog who is more able to participate in society. Quote: Try offering visitors to this site a balance of training information and maybe it could become a little more legitemate in the eyes of alot of people. People who dont dress their animals like people and feed them treats. Just a thought.
Any community will be biased. If you feel that this community is too biased toward the reward-based, no consequences type of training, then become a member and post about your training techiques and successes. Members posts are generally afforded more credibility than guests posts. Not everyone here uses treats exclusively or dresses their dog in clothing - just like not everyone here uses correction training exclusively. There is plenty of room for a variety of viewpoints and discussion, so long as we're all respectful. |
| He doesn't wear the sun glasses , all the time. |
| Hey! Unfair!
I use a prong collar all the time on my dog. Yet I use positive reinforcement and treat rewards for training. You have to learn to pick and choose what works for your situation. I'm sorry you weren't able to realize in any amount of time less than a year that you were going down what was an unsuccessful path. There are many different viewpoints and approaches put forward here, including strong support for Cesar Millan who is not liked by the positive reinforcement only gang. The owner of the site and many people here are "do what works for you" people. Good luck to you! I'm glad you're on your way to figuring things out between you and your dog. Too bad it seems you haven't figured out the rest of life. May I suggest you sit yourself down and think about the lessons you've learned (or should have learned) from this episode in your life and apply it to other areas.  |
| Things move forward it's called progress, which is why we no longer cook on open fires and travel by horse and carriage.
Your method of dog training may well work however positive training works very well and my dog and millions of others are proof of that. Trainers and handlers world wide use positive training with their animals and if it didn't work they wouldn't do it! It sounds to me as though you resent the methods you were being shown and as a result they would never work for you. Many people have taken good advice away from this forum (myself included) and have used it in a positive way and got results. The difference is we have put the time in to training and not expected miracle results in one or two sessions. I wish the best of luck to your dog he sounds as though he's gonna need it!! If you hate the forum so much why did you stay so long?? I presume when you posted in the past you actually signed in?? |
| No one method works for everyone. The key is to take a little bit out of all the different choices there are and to come up with a program that works for you.
In one respect, I agree that some poorly executed "positive" training involves a lot of substitution and luring where the lure is never removed. In that case, I think it is destined to be ineffective. However, using a choke chain is not going to turn a normal dog into a neurotic mess either when it's used correctly. There are so many different dogs, with so many different personalities that to assume one training method will work for all is really limiting yourself. |
| Dear Guest ,
I am sorry it took you 13 MONTHS to figure out what you were doing wasn't working. But it is really unfair to BLAME the people HERE on this forum, because YOU were unsuccessful in training YOUR dog! No one here forced you to stick with the positive training methods! But I guess we should at least commend you for not giving up on your dog and throw him in a shelter like many do. If you had REALLY researched the forum you would have seen that there are several differing opinion on training. Not everyone uses treats to train their dog. And MANY MANY people use choke collars or gentle leaders to walk their dogs. |
| What puzzles me about folks who come on the forum with this sort of attitude, is that they don't seem to comprehend the fact that this is NOT an organization or institution with a set agenda, or "group opinion"....its over 2000 INDIVIDUALS writing in to share their OWN specific thoughts and experiences.
Think of it as walking into a coffee shop filled with Sheepdog owners, all talking about their dogs and willing to tell you what they think if you ask them a question. I myself have a trainer who works with me and my dogs, and uses a VARIETY of techniques, including positive training, but ALSO correction and even pinch collars, etc, when that is what will work best for that particular dog. I'm glad you found someone who can help you train your pup, but its a shame that when something else comes up (dietary, health, etc.....or even a cool story you would like to share about your dog with folks who will appreciate it...) You wont want to turn to the OES forum.  |
ravenmoonart wrote: its a shame that when something else comes up (dietary, health, etc.....or even a cool story you would like to share about your dog with folks who will appreciate it...) You wont want to turn to the OES forum. I was thinking similar thoughts. Also I was thinking that at 13 months their dog is just beginning to become an adult, and won't even begin to calm down for another year or two, or three.
Which is probably so very different from the beloved Beardie they had. Oh well, there goes our eBark positive member rating.
I wish them well. |
| I think many of us can agree that this is a stubborn and often strong willed breed.
Quote: I myself have a trainer who works with me and my dogs, and uses a VARIETY of techniques, including positive training, but ALSO correction and even pinch collars, etc
Here too... I think the idea is to START with a training method that uses the least force and work up until you find a method that works best for you and the dog... keeping in mind that you've got no where to go if you start out with strongest corrections. |
| I don't understand why this person didn't look at themselves in the mirror to see what was wrong with their dog. We who know the breed know that being agressive and nasty with your dog, will produce a nasty and aggressive dog.
Yes, they do need some restraint, but starting puppy classes with some kibble in your pocket works wonders. They do forget about the treat after a while, and just do what you want...because YOU asked it of them. I am looking forward to training my new pup when he comes...it is so much fun to watch them learn. What a wonderful, loyal breed this is! |
| Ooops! Sorry, that was me. Forgot to log in. |
| Let me first start by saying that scaring, harming or screaming any animal into submission is no substitution for good solid training. I for one dont like choke collars because many people misuse them. I have had a very positive experience in training all the dogs we have owned with positive reinforcement BUT I dont ignore bad behavior. My dogs learn NO, OUT, HEAL and OK very quickly. I house trained my dogs using treats and found it was the fastest way.
One thing I have found is that you have to pick and choose what works for you puppy. Just like children, all puppies have different personalities and learn different ways. What I used with our GSD didnt always work with the OES because the GSD loves to show us how obedient and loyal she can be where as the OES seems to crave laughter and making us laugh. I find our OES very sneaky and stubborn. He loves trash so we use yucky tasting stuff to turn his nose away. ETC. I dont agree with everything that is posted here, we also have different personalities, but I do agree and use other advice. PICK AND CHOOSE. This is the best OES website I have come across. I wish you the best of luck with your dog but please dont ever use violence to train him |
| If he needed help in the U K i think we would visit him |
| I don't dress my dogs up and I'm quite clear that they are dogs and not humans. They don't sleep with me--my choice, and they come behind any and all humans in the pack order. They seem perfectly happy with that, although Sophie does have ambitions to rule the world. Fortunately, she's realized there's only room for one queen b in our home and it's not her.
I'm also a do what works kind of person. I have to wonder about the training method the original poster used. Excessive treating is certainly a set up for disaster, health wise as well as training wise, even if it doesn't make your dog go to the bathroom all the time. Contrary to humans, tiny, tiny bits of treat work well for dogs--unless you have a dog that isn't food oriented in which case you substitute something the dog does like for a tiny bit of treat---or even an ice cube (zero calories; zero diarrhea). Sometimes people, meaning very well, adhere to a training method or other dogma much more rigorously than it's intended to be used, or don't 'get' or click with a certain type or aspect of training. When I got my first OES, the training methods in our puppy classes were more old fashioned and traditional. With our next 3, clicker training is in. I find that I use aspects of both sorts of training, as well as stuff that I figured out along the way. I do what works, and it's not always the same method that works for every dog. I expect the same behavior (adjusted for age, of course) from all my dogs, but some have been more eager to please than others, some more food oriented, some would do anything for a few minutes of toss the tennis ball or rub my belly. One would go through his entire repertoire of tricks at the mere sight of turkey. For myself, I am simply not coordinated enough to be a good clicker trainer. However, I have and do use the other parts of the method very effectively. My 14 month old female knows very well that the best chance she has for a treat is to sit quietly--or better yet, lay down. Her brother is still a bit over-enthusiastic, but by ignoring him until he does sit (or sometimes coaching him a little by holding the treat over his head so his natural reaction is to sit) does get the job done. He winds up with fewer tiny bits of treat, but that's ok. My first two dogs used choke chains--on walks only! My younger ones use gentle leaders, which weren't around (or I didn't know about them ) earlier. However, for some sorts of behavior: jumping on people, for example, I use a firmer sort of correction, as well as for any situation that might put my dogs or people in danger. |
Anonymous wrote: After doing all the research we could, visiting this site, and talking to several people, my wife and i decided about a year and a half ago to get a new dog after the death of our 15 year old bearded collie.
I, too was new to the OES breed ( we had only had labs ). I also did extensive research before getting Chauncey. My research however, prepared me for dealing with him. I went into this knowing it was a strong willed, intellegent, yet late maturing breed. For the most part these guys are puppies until their 3rd birthday. We have had and still continue to have our issues. The support and advice we have recieved on this board has been wonderful. I'm sorry your research lead you to method's that did not work. Please, do not fault the forum, as there are many varied methods of training, it is up to you to decide what is best for your particular dog. BTW, one issue that wasn't mentioned is breeding. Having come from a family that was active in breeding, I'm sure you know the huge impact this has on personality. If your dog is displaying these tendencies, hopefully you have neutered him, if not you may want to consider this. He is at the age where hormones may be playing a part in his misbehavior.......Kathy |
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