Biting incident...
My partner and I took on an OES approx 9 weeks ago. He is about 14 - 15 months old, male and has been neutered. His previous owner (by her own admission) ruined him, allowing him to do pretty much what he wanted, when he wanted. We had issues with him to start (jumping up on you/visitors, barking, growling for attention, pulling on lead etc) but sought the help of a dog trainer. We had our second session last night and were delighted at the progress that we had made. Our delight didn’t last for long….. When the trainer left, I was following guidance. Dougal didn’t come back when called, so I went to physically get him and bring him back. He’s a very clever dog and knew that what was happening so he started to run around the couch. I eventually caught up with him, grabbed him and he hit the deck. When I went to grab his collar he locked his teeth around my forearm. I let go, as I was shocked, but quickly realized that if I did flinch and not follow through that this could result in future dominance issues. So I took a deep breath and grabbed the collar again. He locked my arm again, only tighter and began to make a funny sound. As I pulled him, his grip got tighter and very sore. He actually broke the skin (through a big bulky hoody top). I put him in the utility room and shut the door….and then had a mini breakdown! This is the second time that this has happened (must mention that first occasion was no where near the level of severity as above) and I am becoming increasingly worried. The usual thoughts have started going through my mind i.e. if he’s capable of this what else might he do if the mood took him, what if he did this to a visitor/child etc. We’re now beginning to wonder if we can handle him – we love him to bits (and that’s in such a short period of time), but I have to admit that I’m a bit scared (and I’m not one that is scared easily)……. |
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| I don't know any other way to state this, so please take it in the essence that is is being given. I want to help you understand what just happened, so you can avoid it from re-occuring.
I know it must have been scarey to happen, but to be frank, I don't blame him at all for biting you. It is not his falut, as he reacted like a frightned animal would. You frightened him, he tried to give you warning, and you man-handled him so he defended himself. I know this is not what you expected, but with dogs, this is how it works. He has had no training, so needs to be taught what acceptable behavior is. This will not happen in a few hours, or even in a few days. Each step will take weeks to learn. He will not come when you call him becasue he has not been trained what that means. You need to give him time to understand what you are asking, and them reward him for doing it. Being physical with him will only distant him from you and make him defensive. This is a dog who needs patience and understanding. Relax, take a deep breath, and start over. The first thing you will need to do is regain his trust. This alone will take time, as he will be cautious around you for a while. Dogs do not forget easily things that frighten or people who use force on him. Bonding and trust will go a long way with handling and developing a good relationship with a new dog. You need to get this on track so he trusts you will not hurt or frighten him. Did you get him through a rescue group or directly from the prior owners? You may wish to contact a local OES rescue group as they can probably help you sort out things with him. |
| As Nicole has said your pup acted according to his animal instinct because he is, after all, an animal.
The GOOD NEWS is he is still young and trainable. I don't know what type of trainer you have but you need a trainer who uses POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT and Praise not punishment or brute force. NILIF is a GREAT training method, to find out more google "Nothing in Life is Free dog training". You will very wuickly find yourself the "head of your pack" in a positive way. It sounds like you may be expecting too much too fast. If you had just completed a training session it may have been too much to expect for him to continue being obedient. Somewhere, in a book by Jan Fennell (I think), I remember reading the absolute wrong way to get a dog to come is to go "after him". They think you are chasing them (well, your are) and their instict will be to run away. Good Luck and WELCOME to the forum. |
| Your dog sounds very much like my Walter! When Walter was about 8 months old he started getting pretty aggressive, and I went through 3 different trainers trying to get a handle on it. The trainers all encouraged me to "dominate" him, which included me grabbing his collar when he was disobeying. Every single time I did that I got bit in the exact same manner as you. I realize now that Walter was biting me because he was scared, anxious, and was defending himself.
My advice to you is to try strictly positive reinforcement. Hitting, yelling, grabbing, etc. will only scare Dougal and cause him to be defensive. The NILF approach works wonderfully and I strongly suggest looking into that! Good luck and keep us updated! |
| I'm so sorry that you're going through this. We'll help you work it out. Hang in there a bit.
In the meantime, I'd keep a leash on him at all times so that you can have some more control. Never(!) grab by the collar. Initiate the NILF approach. Dog must site before going through any door. Humans through all doors first. (Dogs up/down stairs first for your safety) Humans eat and finish dinner before dog is allowed to eat. Dog must "perform" for any food. Must sit and wait, or some other activity at your comand before being allowed to eat. Dog is NEVER allowed in human's bed. Please ensure he is away from children who might hug or grab him until you've more fully evaluated his behavior over time. These restrictions (and more) may or may not be able to be lifted as time goes on. Welcome to the forum, I'm sorry that you've found us under less than happy circumstances. |
| Hi All,
Many thanks for your helpful replies. Firstly, I must apologise. I have just re-read my post (which was written in a hurry as I was in work) and realise that I may have given the impression that force was used. Just to clarify that it wasn't and never would be. I walked after him when he didn't come (didn't raise my voice). I placed by hand on his back (would never ever hit him) and took him by the collar. It was when I went to move him that the incident happened. From what you folks have said it would appear that he doesn't appreciate being taken by the collar so we won't be doing that again! Ron - we've popped him on the lead and have fed him today using his kong (so he'll have to work through frozen peanut butter for his grub!!) As mentioned - we've had him for over 8 weeks now and have been (trying) to train him ourselves since we got him. We enlisted the help of our trainer as we weren't making the progress we had hoped for and felt that we may need help to ensure that we were doing it right. She is an advocate of positive reinforcement - not negative. We work on a clicker/positive reinforcement basis and even though we've only had 2 sessions with her we feel that she has worked "mini miracles" with him already. I am however a little confused as I was under the impression that you needed to be consistent in your approach to reinforce the required behavior? Once again - may thanks for your replies. I've been reading through the forum and have found myself nodding away to myself, some of the advice is very useful and it is reassuring to know that some behaviors can be put down to inherent breed traits as opposed to a nasty streak in our Dougal!  |
| The NILF approach is more about setting into your pooch's mind who is in what position, so feeding him last is because the humans get fed first, and making him "perform" and "wait" for his meal means he needs to rely on you for everything, and for permission to do anything. It's not just about literally working for the food.
I am SO glad you're going with some clicker training, too. You'll have to keep us posted on how that is going! We had another Dougal on here, but I think it was a while back and in England, so I don't think they are the same dog. Although when you said "popped" him on the leash I thought that sounded British. How big is Dougal? |
| Hi Ron,
Not British - but not far away - Irish! Dougal is huge! He's about 4 foot high and 4 stone! |
| Well, let's see... 1 stone is 14 pounds if my memory serves, so that would be 56 pounds which is on the small side for an adult male sheepdog.
Are you in Ireland? |
| Yes - West of Ireland to be exact.
maybe I'm off with the weight - he's definitely not small or underweight. Our trainer and vet have advised that he is pretty much spot on for age. |
P wrote: I am however a little confused as I was under the impression that you needed to be consistent in your approach to reinforce the required behavior?
I think the issue is that you cannot expect a dog to perform a behavior that hasn't been thoroughly taught and internalized. Until you are at that point, just use the lead to get your dog to do what you need him to do or design it so that your dog wants to do what you are asking (for example, saying "come" if you know they are going to come anyway because you are about to open a can of dog food.) Sit usually comes very quickly but come takes tons of practice. So you don't use the come command outside of structured practice sessions until you know for sure your dog gets it and will do it. Until then, have a backup method for accomplishing your needs. You don't want to put yourself in the position of calling come, having the dog ignore you and then having to go to him to get him to move. We've all been there. Dogs hate it and it weakens your bond. I am a huge fan of the indoor leash/tether. Sometimes when Maggie is acting bratty, I just keep her on the leash and make her follow me around. Instant attitude adjustment. Good luck! |
| Thanks Valerie. |
Valerie wrote: Sometimes when Maggie is acting bratty, Say it ain't so! Not Maggie?!?! |
| Taking a dog by the collar and pulling him is using force. If you are physically making the dog do something he/she does not want to do then you are using force.
Now to totally confuse you....... 
I know that some people have had success with keeping a lead on a dog, and/or tethering him/her to them. This will be a good idea in SOME cases, but not all. Perrsonally I do not advocate this type of treatment. I feel is is still control and can make an already anxious dog more anxious. If the dog feels restrainst, and wants to resist, then it becomes a battle, and then force is introduced...The dog may panic. It can make a submissive dog more submissive, or it can give an unconfident dog some much needed direction and guidance, ...But unless you know what you want to acheive, and that it will work with your particular dog, I would hesitant to use any form of restraint...and that includes a leash. |
| I tend to agree with Nicole, but only because Walter's anxiety is heightened when he is restrained. I think this idea is similar to that of grabbing by the collar, while it may not be forceful or hitting, it is a tactic of control that tends to scare fear aggressive / confused dogs.
One thing you can do is leave a leash (or small loop leash) on his collar so that if he does try to bite you have something to grab onto that isn't his neck. I did this for a while when Walter was really unpredictable, but it probably isn't necessary for most dogs. I think a really important thing to do with dogs that bite is find out exactly what triggers them. You may think that bites are random- but they are most likely for very specific reasons. Keep a journal of bites/growls/showing teeth and see what exactly makes him mad. Once you know what ticks him off, you can target that specific problem with positive reinforcement. It works- I promise! |
| I didn't take your original post as meaning your were rough and phsical with him.
It sounds like what Barney has done in the past. I've never had a dog do it before, so it really startled me. We had gotten Barney when he was 6 months old and by the time he was about 10-11 months old, he was started to get very stubborn. He wouldn't listen to me, so I would grab him by his collar and then he'd growl/snap. I learned not to grab him by his collar anymore, which I still don't. But I agree...the NILF is a great concept to use. |
| Yes - I think that we have worked out that he doesn't like been taken by the collar when it means that he is going into the utility room. We plan on just using the lead as suggested, continue with the training and see how we go from there.
Many thanks to all for your helpful advice on this one. |
Great! Glad the situation is improving.  |
| Hey there,
We had a similar problem with Gatsby. We'd tell him to go into the Kitchen from the lounge, instead he'd go down and refuse to move  . I learnt very quickly not to grab him by the collar to try and move him as he would snap at the arm / hand which was very painful when he got it. When we want him in the kitchen now we either call him to us with a treat in our hand (and made him follow it into the kitchen) or get the lead. 
Gatsby is only a year old now and I haven't been snapped at since using these methods.
Hope this has helped to see that it's not just Douglas, but others dogs react the same way when the collar is used to move them. (We live and we learn.) |
| Ditto with Chaunce. I'm not sure what you have in Ireland, but in US pet stores we have a collar with a built in grab type lead. Almost a handle you can grab when needed, it pulls out to about 6" or so. This may help, we have never tried it though..............Kathy |
| Hi,
I've just read this post from a link that Ron sent me. I'm curious to know if you know what breeder your dog came from. We are having biting issues with my dog and we got him from a breeder in Ireland. There aren't too many so I was wondering if it could be the same one. Thanks. |
| Hi,
I'm sorry I can't help you. We had to re-home Dougal due to a change in personal circumstances  and his papers went with him.
From speaking with our groomer, he did say that there were breeding problems in Ireland as the pool was so small. He mentioned that breeders could breed for looks alone and temperament was not being considered. Not sure if this helps. Good luck |
Was the previous post from "Guest" the same person as the original poster? If so, I am very sad to hear that they had to re-home Dougal... I hope he'll get over his problems soon asn be able to stay in a furever home. I am sorry for the owner, too... I know that must break your heart. 
Do they have an OES breeders association in Ireland? Do other countries have th same "puppymill" issues as the US, worse or better? I'm just curious... |
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