Did he almost attack me today?
Today, he was chewing on a soup bone and again the cat when too near. He hasn't been aggressive with the cats since that first time I posted. Then, he started acting weird. Standing while chewing on this bone and he was dribbling urine on my carpet. Obviously, he needed to go outside so I told him to drop the bone and let's go. I tried to take the bone away, as we always do. He wouldn't let me go NEAR him but this wasn't his playful 'leave me alone' running away from me. He was really angry. He was snapping and growling at me. It wasn't a warning growl where dogs let out this long growl. It was quick, fast and he meant to get me. He has NEVER done this before. Yes, he challenges us and when he is punished he will 'talk back' and be all grumpy but he always submits. And he will stay in his down postion on his own until I give the ok to get up. Today, I was actually scared. He doesn't even do that with dogs in the park. He was like a wild animal. Then, when he dropped it on his own, I grabbed him by his collar and literally had to drag him away from the bone. When the bone was out of sight, I lay him on his side in his time out position, and again, he went wild growling and snapping. I didn't want to show him I was afraid but I was. No, he is not fixed. He is 6 months old and I think that is too young to fix him. I have done my research and it is just too young for a large breed dog. I also don't want 'quick fixes'. My dog should never act like that towards me regardless if he is fixed or not. I am very upset. Any ideas? |
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| I am sorry you are having to go thru this. It must be very frightening for your dog to 'turn' on you this way.
I am no expert, but if this were my dog....I wouldn't allow those bones again. And I would hand feed him...no bowls...I would start the NILF (Nothing in life is free) approach...Your dog seems to be a resource guarder.... there are some posts about that on the forum. Have you taken him to dog school? If not that is a good place to start as well. And as far as neutering him....I would do it now. I waited to have my male neutered because he was possibly going to be a stud dog. I regret waiting. I now have a male that occasionally will mark in the house. The marking behavior started when he was about 6 months old. |
| I would consider three things... though I am not a trainer nor veterinarian.
I would no longer give him any soup bones or chew things that he covets in this manner. The next time there is something you need to get away from him, consider a swap. Take a super tasty treat and bribe him to release it. It leaves both parties happy. Note: Use extreme care when using this technique if he views you as a threat to his ownership of an item. He needs to be eased into understanding that he'll get something better. Talk to your vet about getting him neutered now. With a females, you might consider waiting a little longer but I don't know that neutering is really an issue. We have had all of our 6 girls spayed at the age of 6 months without any incontinence problems and surgery is more invasive for females. I'm afraid if you wait, since you're already seeing signs that have caused you to fear him, that you'll have a much bigger problem with dominant behavior in the future. Again, talk to your vet. Obedience class and lots of exercise. This is just what I would do if I were in your place. Others may be able to provide more or better ideas. |
| We took him to puppy classes and first level obedience training where he did quite well. We take him to the off-leash dog park 4 times a week and he is a doll. Everyone loves him and I never even worry about him approaching small children or strollers. He is also submissive with other dogs. You think you know your dog, then this happens. He is just getting so big now that he can do a lot of damage.
My breeder got back to me and suggested an animal behaviorist. I swear my initial thought was 'oh my gosh, my dog has rabies...' And, funny you mentioned because we immediately threw out the bone! |
| I'm so sorry this happened to you. Everyone else has had very good advice. I would neuter immediately. Both of my males were neutered at 5 months of age, with no issues whatsoever. As I understand it, in order for there to be any cancer benefits, a male should be neutered before any hormones start circulating in his system, which is why vets recommend doing it at 6 months.
I think an animal behaviorist is a good idea, but if it's hormones making him crazy, it probably won't help until he's neutered. In addition, he might have some underlying medical cause. Have you spoken to your vet? Sometimes a sudden change in behavior can indicate something is going on medically, like thyroid issues. I'm glad the bone is in the garbage!!! 
Please keep us posted on your little guy. Laurie |
| I'm sorry Wilbur did this. It IS very scary when your normally sweet baby turns into a snapping and growling dog.
Barney was like what you said for a while. We got him when he was 6 months old and we could do whatever we wanted with him. Then, seemingly overnight, he seemed to 'grow' some food aggression. He would also growl/snap if I tried to pull him by his collar. We didn't feed him from our hands, but we did make sure he knew we were in charge. We'd take away his food and have him re-sit and then he could have it again...things like that. It takes some work, but I'm sure Wilbur will snap out of it. |
| I have never liked the big bones......they seem to bring out something very primal in a dog. I agree, trash the bone.
There has been a great debate over the "right age" to neuter and you do have to do what you think is correct but many of the dogs on this forum have been neutered at six months without any problems. |
| I'm sorry about that. I have had your experience somewhat recently to. Edgar has been going through a "dominate want to be top dog phase". He started misbehaving in the back yard so to nip that in the bud we took him out on his leash. Instant furious mad dog because he couldn't do what he wanted. Basically after he tried to lunge bite at my face I made an appointment to get him fixed. He is 10 months old.
I was always of the mind that it is better to wait until they are a little older to get them fixed. Now while I still think that it is better to wait, I think that if I had an Old English Sheepdog puppy again I would get them fixed at six months. Since they are a breed that tends to want to be dominate once those hormones come out it makes it a challenge. I know that fixing them won't always change there behavior but in some cases it does. So I myself am hoping that it will help calm Edgar down. For the most part he is very good. Just likes to test. Other then getting him fixed we have still been trying to be very consistent with him and not letting him get away with anything. |
| Thank you everyone for your suggestions and quick replies. I stopped crying a couple hours ago and have seemed to calm down! It's just my little boobiebear tried to bite me face off. Mommy's NOT impressed with him today.
I am going to take all your suggestions into consideration. I can't hand feed him his meals as he eats a dehydrated raw food diet and it turns to mush when you add water. Also the tripe is pure puke and I don't want to touch that! But everything else he will have to 'work' for. Although we make him sit or lie down for everything now. He is neither spoiled nor deprived of anything so I don't know what made him so protective. Like Tasker's Mom said, it does seem to bring out something primal in him! I have also read something too about the thyroid being an issue so maybe a trip to the vet is in order. Wilbur is out a the dog park now. But as soon as he gets home, we are leaving him on the leash tonight in the house. We should have done this months ago when he showed the aggression with the cats. |
| NILF and neuter and luck |
| What does NILF mean? |
crustybirds wrote: What does NILF mean?
Nothing In Life is Free. Means make them work for everything -- food, petting, treats, opening doors, etc. |
| I can't add anything that hasn't already been said. It is all good advice. I'm SO SORRY this has happened to you. I will add that a trip to the Vet is in order. They are great recourses for problems...Pam |
| Not everyone I agrees with me, but I am going to get it on the record again, neutering is not going to be the cure-all. You may see less agression with him and he may "settle down" a little, but neutering is not going to solve behavioral issues. I would focus an increased energy in consistent & patienttraining and bringing out the proper behavior out of your pup. IMO, there will be no quick cure. (this is not to say that I don't agree with getting your pup neutered).
My guy was netured at 3 yr old. We never had aggression or behavioral problems with him before that. He did settled down a little bit but no one would ever mistake him for a couch potato. |
| You have a right to be upset. Anyone would be, and to see and expereince this type of behavior from your pet is frightening and disappointing, indeed.
However, is it NORMAL behavior. You did nothing to provoke it and Wilbur is not a bad doggie. It is called Resource Guarding, and some dogs do it and some don't. Like barking...some dogs are big barkers and some aren't. Some dogs guard food or water or toys....they may guard from dogs, cats, people...or a combination of these. Why some dogs do it and others don't is not quite clear, but it can be overcome. It is not a quick fix, and it is not "training" as in "obedience training" that needs to be done to prevent this from happening. Yes, you can train him to "give" but that does not stop him from feeling possessive, and someone else may still approach him when you are not there, and disaster can happen. What you need to do is change Wilbur's state of mind when he has something of value. Don't force him to give anything up, or he will get worse....and unpredictable. This is a link to my favourite article on resource guarding. In it there is a reference to Jean Donaldson 's booklet "Mine"...It is inexpensive and very good. Jean also wrote "The Culture Clash" which literally changed the way people look at and treat their dogs. It also addresses resource guardingm and many other canine behaviors .She is an amazing behaviorist and trainer. http://ahimsadogtraining.com/handouts/r ... rding.html In the meantime keep everyone safe, and I would not be allowing any extremely high- value treats until he is fail-proof....following these instructions. It will take time to turn him around, but it is doable...in slow increments you can work him up to being very happy when you approach him with his meals. Neutering and NILF both may help, and at this point I would be trying everything. BTW, my Bosley was neutered at 4 months of age, and he resource guards...not from people, but from dogs. He gets the look, and stiffens up and stares at a dog approaching him while eating...It is not pretty. Dixie has learned to give him a wide berth those times... Good luck. |
| All your suggestions are greatly appreciated. I got over the incident but I haven't forgotten.
Thanks for the links. I will check that out. I don't believe Wilbur is at the proper age to be fixed (I can hear all of you saying I am stupid right now). But I simply feel he needs to be intact for proper growth. DON'T GET MAD!!! But we have done research and that is how we feel. But I am not against getting pets fixed. To each, his own. Plus, he isn't aggressive with any dogs at the park. He's a pussy cat. And we put ponytails in his hair. And everyone thinks he's a girl. And he runs like a girl, and he prances like a girl...I think he needs his balls. 
I am glad so many people offered their suggestions. I needed the reassurance. I just didn't know if now I need to keep him on a leash? Or is he going to suddenly snap on someone? Do I need to worry that one day I will find my cat with out a head? These things make me worry because I saw how quickly and without thinking he reacted. If I didn't have such quick supernatural moves-like-cat reflexes, he would have got me. Sometimes I want to bite him back. And that's why I don't have kids. |
| I would say that if he has something that he wants no one else to have that there can be problems. Not letting him have things like this in the first place is the best approach. All dogs will bite... some dogs are just set off easier than others.
My extremely alpha OES-mix responded this same way with chews so I taught her to drop whatever was in her mouth into my hands. I did not take things from her. She was the most gentle dog with my rabbits, baby birds that were found on the ground, etc. I could put the rabbits on the ground and she would lie there next to them and lick their ears or follow them around as they hopped around the yard. However, with that regal dog, life was a compromise. She did not tolerate other dogs well and she bit my son on the thumb when he was around 7. If the breeder has recommended professional assistance, please follow this advice so you can make sure you're on the right track with him. It's always best to address problems quickly so they don't become well rooted. Good luck! |
| Wilbur's Moma,
Sorry I missed your post yesterday, I wasn't on line at all. Obviously there are a few issues happening here that have combined and resulted in Wilbur behaving atypically. First off of course he is basically entering puberty so he is a "bit out of balance". I will stand with you on your decision not to neuter him yet, I may have mentioned it when you visted us a few months ago, but I too believe early neutering is unheathy. As you well know Wilbur's hormones are for more than just reproduction. To me it seems that early neutering has become a fashionable easy solution. Keep doing your normal routines with him so he knows that you remain the pack alpha and that your will always wins. Maybe a bit more exercise if possible to keep him tired as he goes through his "hormonal issues" - a tired puppy is a good puppy. Treat defence is the next issue and bones do seem to be a particular trigger here as others have mentioned. I think it is because bones are big and tough so they can take a lot of "abuse" which I think tends to build up a dog's aggression towards the bone and creates an adrenaline rush. This can spiral up as the dog wants to "beat the bone" but the bone still doesn't "give in" so the dog gets more aggressive with it building up yet more of an adrenaline rush and so goes the cycle. By the time you came to remove the bone poor Wilbur was so "worked up" his normal behaviour couldn't override the adrenaline rush. The adrenaline might have also contributed to the incontinence experienced during this incident. So certainly getting rid of the bone was the right thing to do. Keep an eye on his behaviour with other long lasting treats he might have such as Kongs etc., just in case they induce the same sort of adrenaline cycle. - Personally we don't feed our dogs bones of any description for other reasons but his sort of incident further re-enforces our decision to keep bones out of the house. While you cannot literally feed Wilbur his meals "piecemeal" as suggested by several other members you can do something just as effective. If you hold his bowl and let him have only a few bites and then remove it from him briefly, then let him take another bite or two and so on you are effectively feeding him piece by piece. This will give him the Nothing In Life Is Free lesson and of course it will re-enforce where his meals orignate. He is NOT the hunter, You are and You provide for him! You can do the same sort of thing with his treats if necessary. Break his milk-bones, or whatever dry treat he gets, into small pieces and give them to him one piece at a time. Anytime he misbehaves he must thoroughly understand how displeased with him you are. Low dark tones in your voice and a dominating posture, lean over him, will convey that he has been very bad. In the extreme cases you can also "lightly tap him on the nose with one finger" for shock value. Used occassionally this can be very effective in getting him to realize just how displeased you are with him and as his primary goal is to please the pack alpha (you) he will heed his lesson. I don't think that Wilbur is trying to move up the pack order with you as he continues to be submissive at the bark park and returns to you for comfort after submitting to others. Fortunately he is not Virgil who I have to constantly remind who is pack alpha. Some dogs are just like that, not aggressive - just very dominant, but Wilbur doesn't seem to have any of that in him at all. As you have said this is an incident to get over but not forget, in some aspects for either of you. Wilbur cannot be allowed to forget that he must obey and concede anything you require. I hope these comments help in some way. As ever don't hesitate to ask for any further help required either on public forum or PM. As well don't hesitate to phone of visit if that would be better for you. Thanks and Cheers Carl |
| In addition to other helpful suggestions already posted I would like to add that I really think you should have your vet thoroughly evaluate him. Sometimes there can be medical causes behind behaviour issues that you wouldn't even think of. It can vary from things as simple as something stuck in a tooth causing pain, or an ear infection, to a brain tumor (not to worry you, but it happens) |
Wilbur's Momma wrote: Sometimes I want to bite him back.
And that's why I don't have kids. LOL! I'm with you on that one! |
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