What would you change in the OES Breed Standard?
Has there been a movement towards certain characteristics that you feel is damaging to the breed? The example given in the show was the Bull Terrier and how it has been bred down, shortened snout, confined movement from the way it appeared in the later part of the 19th century. Other breed changes has been the narrowing of the head in certain breeds, accentuating the dome head in others, increasing size, decreasing size, etc. I realize we are viewing the breed from just one point in it's development ....Einstein was right, it's all relative.....but in your crystal balls do you see a problem? |
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| Actually I feel the oes standard is as it should be. I just wish more would breed to it. Temperment and soundness should be above all else, not who has the most coat covering it all up or who can scissor and tease to hide/accentuate what they want to. |
Would you be in favor of having a % of the points awarded to dogs in coats less than 2 inches? (I'm reframing from "nekkid"  ) this would help minimize the hiding flaws. (Of course a judge should be able to feel the differences but do they really take the time??)
I realize this puts a strain on the showing as it takes time for the coat to come back. Do you think there should be an age the dog must attain before it can become champion?? Thinking here about the differences between a puppy, adolescent and mature adult......the best pup can turn into less than ideal adult. |
SheepieBoss wrote: Would you be in favor of having a % of the points awarded to dogs in coats less than 2 inches? (I'm reframing from "nekkid" ) this would help minimize the hiding flaws. (Of course a judge should be able to feel the differences but do they really take the time??) Yes, most judges really do take the time to very thoroughly feel the dog, but first impressions count too I think. I don't think it's necessary to show without coat, I just don't think it should be the only focus. Most of the time it's not.... it's the whole dog. Quote: Do you think there should be an age the dog must attain before it can become champion?? Thinking here about the differences between a puppy, adolescent and mature adult......the best pup can turn into less than ideal adult.
Very interesting... and something I have thought about too. It can work in opposite directions too, Sky's coat as a puppy was not a great coat. As she matured, I liked everything about her more and more. Now as a 3 year old dog I am very pleased with how she turned out. I have seen many dogs who do wonderfully as pups and then into adulthood they don't look as good as people expected them to.... you just never know. I would say most of the time though you can get a pretty good idea of how a pup will turn out based on what is behind it as well as what you see. |
| I'd like to have seen the PBS show. But I won't give my opinion again on this subject. |
| I worry about this as well.. but i mainly see the difference in the show rings.. while if you go out to the field rings you will see a difference.
Labs, German Shepards look nothing like they did 20 years ago. the whole breed down thing doesnt take that long really. Take the newly allowed Plott hounds. My grandfather had some of the original stock.. these dogs were tall, lean, LONG eared, haunting bay call and almost always brindle. If you got a buckskin those were rare and highly sought after. Those were the only 2 colors accepted by the true plott fellas. The newly accepted akc stock is shorter.. fater and well. If I could have shown you Rusty as compared to the new accepted kind you would see a striking difference in certain areas. I dont like all these "changes" GS looking more and more .. the only word i can describe it as is "whiped".. Labs looking like fat lumps.. It is worrying tbh. Border Collies.. omg.. i saw the one at this years tourny and was like WTF.. thats not a proper BC.. But then again i am too used to the UK BC's and they are after all the originators of that breed and do look diff. Even between countires there can be striking differences.. and certain restrictions.. like the allowing of tails in europe n such but not here.. which might have a bad impact on the breed later on.. its really the only thing about the oes i personally would like changed.. the allowance of tails in the breed standard here. I think when you start mucking with the dog.. it no longer is the dog of old as it should be.. but something new and shouldnt be used to judge against the original breed. If you change it.. its diff.. period.. |
| One thing that I've always wondered is about showing the sheepdogs in full coat. I know they go and feel the bone structure and everything, and that coat is an important quality of a sheepdog, but I always kind of wished they'd do a nekkid dog show and a full coat dog show (so a dog would have to at least win once in each category)...or have one big show with the dogs starting out in full coat and then go backstage and get shaved and finish the show |
barney1 wrote: or have one big show with the dogs starting out in full coat and then go backstage and get shaved and finish the show
Excellent idea! They could combine it with grooming awards.  |
But then you could only enter 1 show a year!!! 
Also, I can compare it to showing sheep. Years ago, all sheep were shown with lots of wool, There was extensive carding and blocking done, until they looked like a sculpted wonder sheep. The judges did a hands on exam, but amazingly  , the perfectly groomed sheep always won!!
Then a trend started with the market sheep to show them "slick sheared" - they are sheared super close the week of the show - they are virtually naked sheep! Now nothing is hidden and all can see the good and the bad. The breeding sheep are still shown with wool, but I can see that changing too. |
| I agree with Tanks on the German Shepherd.
They breed for that slant leg which causes more hind end problems.
Chihuahua's breed standard has changed over the years. From a sturdy little dog, to a tiny pocket dog with a very short snout causing breathing problems....etc The "Deer Type" Chihuahua resembles the original dogs. They look like the Taco Bell dog. The Apple Head "The standard now" has a tiny snout, and is very small. Also the majority of the breed has molera (when the top of the skull does not close) How healthy is that! 
How is this betterment of breeds when it causes more health problems.
As for Sheepdogs, I am not sure what I would change.... |
barney1 wrote: One thing that I've always wondered is about showing the sheepdogs in full coat. I know they go and feel the bone structure and everything, and that coat is an important quality of a sheepdog, but I always kind of wished they'd do a nekkid dog show and a full coat dog show (so a dog would have to at least win once in each category)...or have one big show with the dogs starting out in full coat and then go backstage and get shaved and finish the show
OMG, OMG, OMG! That thought just gave me chest pains!!! I have nightmares about someone thinking they are doing me a favor by shaving Suzi or Toby. (Actually, I never dream that anybody shaves Carl for me; that would be nice!) The overgrooming is ridiculous but with a good judge, they know what they are putting their hands on and know what good movement is so I have faith that they are able to distinguish around the hair. Now, those judges who have no clue probably wouldn't even be able to judge a correctly made naked dog! |
I bet it would get more people to watch the shows...Tune in after the commercial break to find out what Suzi looks like nekkid!  |
barney1 wrote: I bet it would get more people to watch the shows...Tune in after the commercial break to find out what Suzi looks like nekkid!
Ok...this is totally off topic, but I have to share a story... My husband is a high school teacher, and the laptop he uses at school also has a bunch of person stuff on it that he has downloaded. One thing he has on there is "Suzy Loves Mandy" (video of the kiss in the showring) Except he titled it " Suzi kissing Mandy"....and as a result he had his principal reprimand him for having PORN on the laptop!!!!! Of course, once he realized what the principal was talking about, he showed him the video, and got an apology! |
| ^^^^ that is SO funny!! ^^^^
At least they are checking things out.......  |
| I have to agree with the breeding down especially in the GSD. We recently lost our Shasta, she was what they call an "american GSD>" They are finer boned, dainter etc. Personally I like the orignal GSD. SHe had so many problems from skin, teeth, eye, and she was also anorexic. She wouldnt eat much for us. She died at the young age of 8 due to her health problems. I blame the breeders for her health and how she suffered (and the back yard breeding going on trying to perfect this look.) I also agree that temperment should come first and foremost. Did you ever notice how high strung these breeds get. They are extremely nervous and just horrible to calm down. Our Cheyenne is a fullblood GSD. German background the whole bit and is not at all like Shasta was. She is very laid back and healthy in comparision. |
| One of the soap boxes on the PBS show was one I think you all would agree too. That is that some people trying to get that perfect dog have been breding litter mates. Leading as we all know to problems that are hard to watch. The show also said that many of these problems could be solved within a few generations. Mostly it was about the wonder that taken dogs from wolves to what we see today. |
| Personally, I just wish they'd leave dogs as they are, stop mucking about with them, labradoodles - sorry, but thats just ridiculous - its all money making |
I'm sorry I didn't come up with the Labradoodle scam! No, not really because there's no money in responsible dog breeding unless you cut corners on care  Imagine charging big bucks for a hybrid/mutt. These aren't stable breeds, not after just one or so generations.....LOL! P.T. Barnum would be proud.
Another point in the PBS show was a move toward less breed/varieties, not more! Bringing diversity back to a breed would help........for example the different size beagles, the various colors of Cockers, etc. I wonder if some breeds need an outcrossing to help. One of the giant breeds......I'm thinking St B's had an outcrossing with Great Pyr or something else........to enlarge the gene pool. This was 19th century. Breeds battling genetic problems could be salavaged and improved with some new genes. But then, maybe these are breeds that should be let go............ |
Not wanting to change the subject, but over here, Labradoodles go for nearly £1,000. and I think what hurts most is people think its just a big gimmick - why mess with breeds when there are so many out there - sorry, going off course here  |
Ollie's Mum wrote: Not wanting to change the subject, but over here, Labradoodles go for nearly £1,000. and I think what hurts most is people think its just a big gimmick - why mess with breeds when there are so many out there - sorry, going off course here
I agree that a lot of the breeding of Labradoodles is just simply crossing poodles and labs without much thought or research, which is, indeed, nothing more than a mix. But, I don't think it's fair to lump them all into that category because, in Australia where they began, a lot of serious research and careful selections have been made to begin the creation of a "real" breed, where they pay close attention to health issues, breeding to a standard and continued research to better the breed. All breeds started out as crosses with something... |
| The labradoodle was created over many many years by the guide dog institution. We use Labradors here for the blind. The breed was established for those that are allergic to dogs. They are not sold they are given to a blind person fully trained and in need of a dog they are not allergic too. They breed there own stock and very strict selective breeding & health screenings over many generations to achieve what they have today, a sound labradoodle for the blind..
We have people, BYB, who just cross them and produce them and sell to the naive public or pet shops for megabucks here also.  |
| Also staying off topic, but having met many many labradoodles and golden doodles, I am a huge fan of the combination. All of the ones I have met have been super sweet and super playful. They have all been really nice dogs, great with kids, and great playmates for Maggie. I don't know why but the mix works really well. |
| If I could add something to the breed standard it would be a bigger emphasis on the OES temperment. I know that this is important to many (hopefully all!) breeders today but I wish a bigger emphasis was placed on it in the standard so that in future years we never lose that loveable and clownish personality. |
| I asked the orginal question without really having an answer. My dreams are for breeding emphasis on health and temperment. There are some health concerns in the breed, I'd like to see an effort to root those out and also a vigilant effort to prevent future problems from creeping in.
Temperment is critical as we say this is a good dog for families, let's keep it that way. Goofy, funloving, clownish, yes, that must stay. How to achieve these, I don't know. Finally, while I'm a major fan of big dogs and love my big loveable OES boy, I'd like so see the breed kept smaller. (I equally love my miniOES girl) Sure a big mobile haystack is impressive but with people's movement to smaller dogs due to smaller yards, I'd hate to see the breed outsize itself. Also with the smaller dogs we may see less structural problems. |
| I think showing helps weed out bad temperments... I can't see how a dog with a bad temperment could successfully be shown... they have to be solid and stable mentally as well as physically. |
| Take this comment knowing that I have no experience showing OES and only know what I've learned from this site and from my beautiful baby’s very responsible breeder.
Why is there a desire to breed larger/taller OES? Is it a matter of the demands to compete in the show ring? It seems to be more predominate in the west. I thought OES were square, compact dogs, not long and lankey. Again, I'm a neophyte, and this is an assumption, but much like breeding smaller has created health issues, it would seem breeding larger is asking for trouble, structurally speaking. OK, ready, set,  |
| Size has nothing to do with it, if the dog is balanced as per the standard then this makes any size correct, that is a dog is looking square from a side view, not leggy at all or lanky regardless of size..
You can have a small sheepie at 22" and is long in the body and out of proportion, not enough leg underneath looking stumpy or too much leg under them, looking lanky even though it is a smaller size. You can also have a small one that is balanced both in height and length of body, with correct leg length and looking compact/square and correct as per the standard. The same applies with the taller ones, if one is balanced and it's body proportions are correct as the standard stipulates they are not leggy or long they are in proportion to there height and looking square & compact. There is no desire to breed taller oes it is all about sticking to the standard and that is why there is no stipulations on maximum height in the breed. In the showring, well put together sheepies wether they are taller or smaller does not matter and both sizes do well if they are in proportion in there bodies. I've had both big and small and both sizes have done well, size is not an issue at all if a sheepie comes close to the standard in construction it is square and compact as per the standard.. Anything to change on the standard, IMO no.
A larger sheepie that is put together well & in the correct proportions will have no problems in structure or movement, same applies with the smaller ones also. |
Sheeps over Aces wrote: Again, I'm a neophyte, and this is an assumption, but much like breeding smaller has created health issues, it would seem breeding larger is asking for trouble, structurally speaking.
OK, ready, set, I'm just wondering where you got the idea that 1) anyone is breeding specifically for smaller and 2) if they were, why would that in itself cause health issues? As Lisa said, size doesn't matter as long as they are proportionate and to the standard... I personally like to see a heavier, more substantial dog though. |
Willowsprite wrote: Sheeps over Aces wrote: Again, I'm a neophyte, and this is an assumption, but much like breeding smaller has created health issues, it would seem breeding larger is asking for trouble, structurally speaking. OK, ready, set, I'm just wondering where you got the idea that 1) anyone is breeding specifically for smaller and 2) if they were, why would that in itself cause health issues? As Lisa said, size doesn't matter as long as they are proportionate and to the standard... I personally like to see a heavier, more substantial dog though. I think they meant the breeding smaller of other breeds. Somewhere there was a discussion of bulldogs and them being bred to emphasize features that eventually led to health issues. |
| As another neophyte, why is any brown something to be discouraged? Never having been in conformation, and with two fixed companions, not likely to be in a show, does the dog loose points if there is any brown on it? |
George wrote: As another neophyte, why is any brown something to be discouraged?
Because you are then encouraging another colour in the breed altogether, instead of what is stipulated as per the standard as Any shade of grey, grizzle, blue or blue merle Brown ends is forgiven on a youngster that is coat changing, if there is browning on the jacket in the younger classes a judge will part the coat and look to skin level and make sure the brown is not all the way down to there, if it is then that dog will not be awarded as it is not to the standard in coat colour. A few youngsters can have this browning on the ends of there coats when changing coat. On a mature coat not allowed and the dog would not be awarded if carrying a brown jacket. Looking back in the history of the formation of the breed OES, there is said too that part of the background of an OES is the bearded collie in there as well as a few other breeds that could also have brown jackets, looking at the bearded collies they come in grey/slate and white and brown and white so there is reasons there in the standard why brown is not encouraged at all in OES. Some sort of distant recessive gene that could crop up in an OES to produce a brown and white one, so that is why brown on an OES coat is not desirable, encouraged or to be bred with. Again it all goes back to why there is a standard mentioning all these specific points on the breed right down to the coat colour also. Veer away from the standard and you are creating another breed altogether and not an OES. |
| Thanks Lisa, glad I'm not showing my guys, Barney has a bit of brown on the hocks. |
Amanda P wrote: Willowsprite wrote: Sheeps over Aces wrote: Again, I'm a neophyte, and this is an assumption, but much like breeding smaller has created health issues, it would seem breeding larger is asking for trouble, structurally speaking. OK, ready, set, I'm just wondering where you got the idea that 1) anyone is breeding specifically for smaller and 2) if they were, why would that in itself cause health issues? As Lisa said, size doesn't matter as long as they are proportionate and to the standard... I personally like to see a heavier, more substantial dog though. I think they meant the breeding smaller of other breeds. Somewhere there was a discussion of bulldogs and them being bred to emphasize features that eventually led to health issues. Thanks, my comment was regarding other smaller breeds. |
| I agree with all that has been said regarding judges being able to feel the structure thru the coat - there is also much to be just seen when moving, i.e. balance, soundness, etc. Temperament is also very important to me - and this is sometimes evident in the show ring and, hopefully, unless it is provoked, the dog will be excused. I disagree that dogs - no matter how good they might look - should be shown out of coat. Coat is one of the things that makes an OES an OES....of course, although the "over primping" is not necessary - it is, afterall, a "show". I was in Argentina at an OES specialty and the judge, whom I did not know, came over to where I was sitting (I was with a well-known judge from Argentina) and was introduced to me - he leaned over and said - I apologize for the quality of OES we have, they certainly are not what you are used to. He was, of course, right. Between not being able to gait on lead, running out of the ring, poor coat condition, it was difficult to not be distracted and really look at the animal. At the end, he put up a puppy - who really was the best of the lot. A puppy is just as deserving as an older dog - the judge is judging "on the day" and it has nothing to do with anything else. |
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