OESCA INFORMATION BEING DISCUSSED (unofficial site)
Please note there is a question as to the validity of the ballot in question. There are many incorrect dates noted on the ballot. We have asked OESCA to please make a statement as to whether these ballots are legal or if they have to send another one. I believe someone has asked AKC regarding this issue as well. Also, we are voting on an "ILLUSTRATED GUIDE" to the Old English Sheepdog. If anyone is not a member of the Breeders and Exhibitors list (who is either or a Breeder or Exhibitor) we would welcome you to please come onto the list to follow discussion, and participate. But on that note as well, we know there are some members here on this forum who are pet members of OESCA. You too have input on this standard/guide/study. But you also need to be aware that your rights to make a decision on this item was almost taken away from you...... and you need to get the facts. I have told other members from the Breeders list about the forum and hope they will join here so you dont think it is only my input coming in here. It isn't. There are many issues here that ALL OES owners/fanciers need to be aware of. Thanks for your time. |
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| Dearl Alene,
As an owner of 2 OES, both with CD's and presently trying to promote interest in the St. Louis area in forming a specialty club, I am considering applying for membership; however the form requires references from two OESCA members. I don't know anyone who is a member. Also, as a member what does the club offer me if I am not a breeder? George |
| George,
right off the top of my head, i don't know of any OESCA members in your area, but I will try to find my roster and get you the names of someone! I would contact them, get to know them and work with people in your area. Due to the "new" restraints on sponsoring members, I will no longer sponsor anyone for this club. This is just MY decision. The questions you raise are interesting, as a number of us have been asking ourselves this question....... right now as far as I am concerned, I get a magazine 4 times a year. I get to pay to go to a National Specialty and see other people i normally wouldn't see....... |
| Ali - What would you like to see for your $45 annually?
And for current members, what rights were almost taken away from us? What issues should we be aware of (besides the ballot dates)? George, contact your breeder. He/she should be willing to sponsor you. And with your st. louis sheepiealooza coming up I am sure there will be one or more OESCA members. |
| Hey George, you do "know" several people in the club. With the new membership application, they ask if you've ever been to the applicant's house. I don't know how that would affect any of us sponsoring you.
I would contact the Great Plains regional director, Elaine Saxen. I'll send you her info. She should be able to help if they need to physically come visit with you or see where you do your thing. |
El Gato wrote: Ali - What would you like to see for your $45 annually?
I can say for a NUMBER of members, we would like to have more input instead of being TOLD what is happening. Going back to a magazine of 6 times a year, where we can actually read what the board is doing (lately behind) and how they are voting and why. Instead, we are just being told (As was STATED to us) at the last annual membership meeting that we didn't know enough, so the board was voting how they saw things should be done, on issues that the membership needs to have input on and vote for. This illustrated "guide" for one. |
Maxmm wrote: Hey George, you do "know" several people in the club. With the new membership application, they ask if you've ever been to the applicant's house. I don't know how that would affect any of us sponsoring you.
Well so far there are about a dozen members coming in for the Sheepiepalooza; if any of them come to my house Fri eve for the "warm up" gathering, that may satisfy that issue. Really, it doesn't sound like OESCA membership has anything to offer. Their information about the breed, breeder referal, recommendations on selecting a breeder, etc. are all available without the burden of membership. |
| Its funny you should ask this. Just this morning on the phone, that exact quetion came up. If it were not for the real love of this breed, a number of us would no longer pay dues each year, and stay in this club.
There are very few people that i refer people to for puppies. Even if i know that other people have puppies. Everyone is so afraid they will be sued........... or have someone say something about them...... it's just not worth it. I know when i pay the dues for Norm and I each year, I can only hope that we will see a change and hope that our dues go for something for the good of the breed. I know we can only HOPE that the people we put into the offices of this breed are doing it for the breed and not for their political and self magnification. So far for some time, we have been very dissapointed. To be told that "we" the membership don't know what's good enough for our dogs is disturbing to say the least, expecially when some of us have been members for over 25 years. I know for a fact that we have someone running from the floor for a position that has no business being on the board. Having bred unhealthy dogs and treated their owners like you know what when they called to tell her of a problem. It's no secret in my area. That this person would have been asked to run 'just' so someone else would not get onto the board is a travisty. This is not a reason to run for the board. This club needs to have people representing it on the board that truly care about this breed, and not just to further themselves and 'get their names out'. It's a shame so many new people don't stay that come into this breed. They are run off from day one instead of finding someone to help teach and mentor them and bring them along. |
| That's sad Ali if it is not for new people getting involved in the breed and the club, looking to mentors to guide and teach them, then where will the breed end up as time goes by?
Politics is a world wide problem, so is getting known for all the wrong reasons, nothing to do with a breed club or the breed, just Hey My Name is Known. 
We here have obedience club for OES george and they meet every 2nd Sunday for training together. Club Run and for all OES not just show ones. It also mentors and offers care and grooming demonstrations for the up and coming novice of the breed. We value our non show members and pet people who make up a vast majority of club members and all have the right to vote too on breed issues. Without them and without the newbies coming into the breed and getting involved then there would be no club and no one in the future to take over the mantle on behalf of the breed and ensure it's future. We have gazettes out to all members every 2 months to offer information and to keep up to date with what is going on. Wishing you all the best in promoting an interest in the St.Louis area and forming a specialty club so you can all enjoy this breed together and share together all things OES.  |
| I sincerely hope that George get's the help and mentoring he wishes for.
I moved here 7 years ago now. I was warned before i moved here I was moving into the pitt viper den. I had known people here for years and didn't think it would be anywhere NEAR as visous as it has been. Only two people in this area in 7 years invited us to something from the OES world and one of them is dead now. She and I had a true 'friendship' but we agreed not to let anyone else know just how much of a friendship we had, as we knew others would try to ruin it. And guess what? she and I had a lot of good laughs over some of the things people around here tried. I came into this breed almost 30 years ago now. I had rose colored glasses let me tell you. What a shame the state of affairs has become. I don't for one minute think it is going to change anytime soon. It would be nice, but with all the health issues, secrecy issues the nastiness and backstabbing issues. Even when someone tries to be nice to someone new, someone else is always there behind the scenes to say not nice things...... and it's all a jealousy issue. OMG, somebody might find out what i use as a grooming spray, or how i do something different...... and in the end...... it's the breed that suffers. |
| Ali - You have some pointed opinions. Why don't you run yourself? Or push for someone you believe in to put their name in the ring? Or use your 30 years of experience in the breed and reach out to mentor others that are up-and-comin? Even the prickliest of OES supporters realizes that the breed is dependent on the new comers. My bet is the majority of the people on this board are new OES owners or revisiting the breed after years away. And not everyone is proactive in finding support. I know my fair share of the as*es in the OES community, but I have also found people that I trust.
Just like in regular politics, if we just sit back in the weeds and do nothing then we really have no business in complaining about who is running the show. |
| i did run once. I was elected. I served my position until my husband and i made the decision that being yelled at on the phone and screamed at and told how i would vote etc. was enough.
i was asked to run this time again. No. Enough is enough. I have my hands full with everything here by myself and Norm oversea's. It's just not worth it to me anymore. I was asked for opinions on whom else to run...... I gave them. And I gave facts why I would NOT ask someone to run for one of the positions. I gave where to look for facts........ then they still asked for this person to run...... Sorry about sounding sour but I did go in wanting to do something for my breed...... |
| i'm not sure what board you are talking about. If it is the OESCA board no, they are not new. And nothing has changed in 15 years........ the club is run by a select few......... and if you disagree with them you are labeled a troublemaker. you should know that by now. People that have years and years of knowledge are treated like crap. No one is allowed to go against the "ones in the know".
Isn't it ironic that all the nastiness at the National last year over the C.A. Database and health issues from the board, that they have NOW changed their view AFTER membership signed petitions stating they did want the open registry? Where at the same meeting we were 'told' we 'didn't know enough about a breed guide to be able to have enough common sense to vote on this important issue? I have nothing, one way or the other to lose or gain about that Illustrated Guide. But i saw the one done years ago, and i have seen this one at the national last Oct. I am just appalled that we would give something like this out, to prospective judges in our breed to guide them in judging our breed! But to make it worse was to be "told" we didn't know enough to make an educated decision on our own. |
| Sorry Ali, I guess I wrote this while you were writing the post above...
There is also a ballot included with the Illustrative Guide, about whether you are in favor or not for an open registry for Cerebellar Abiotrophy. There was a vote for this at the general meeting at the National this past year. It lost by only 1 vote which is why I am sure is why the board members thought maybe it was a good idea to mail out ballets. With all of the politics aside, I feel like being a member does give you more insight on the breed. Just hanging around people who have been in the breed for so many years, is also a tremendous resource. |
Ali wrote: I have nothing, one way or the other to lose or gain about that Illustrated Guide. But i saw the one done years ago, and i have seen this one at the national last Oct. I am just appalled that we would give something like this out, to prospective judges in our breed to guide them in judging our breed! But to make it worse was to be "told" we didn't know enough to make an educated decision on our own.
If you are referring the the version that Larry Stein prepared, I wonder why the membership is not able to see both versions side-by-side and then vote on which one to use. Personally, I would love to have a look at his version. I am not sure if it is the same one that they use on their web site. I often refer people to their site to have a better understanding of the "standard". Makes sense to me that a medical illustrator by profession, an OES judge, and a breeder who has a good understanding of the standard is a superb candidate to be preparing the guide rather than someone who is not an OESCA member. For those people not familiar with medical illustration, it's not like you are an artist who just decides one day to make medical drawings. You actually have to be intensely trained in biology & anatomy, almost like going to med school to actually understand what has to be drawn completely accurately. |
| You were there at the meeting. You saw how nasty the voting got.
It took 3 votes for them to come up with 1 extra vote against the issue. And that took them going out into the parking lot to get people to come in and vote against the issue. this was a no brainer! This was about the HEALTH of our breed! Sure when they found out that we had the votes on paper,,,,,,,, that it was wanted by the membership that the secrecy issues would no longer fly...... they decided after they got the petitions to change their tune. It should not have even been an issue to have to even VOTE on! NOW, we are wasting money, sending out invalid ballots because of wrong dates on them. And fighting about the Illustrated Guide! I just received notice about your message on the Illustrated Guide and I could not be more than 100% in agreement with you! The Stein's guide that was done years ago was superb. I did not even know them when i saw it the first time. It is a wonderful teaching and guiding tool. It looks professionally done....... not like a Dick and Jane 1st grade reading book. That is what this ballot is about though....... that we have enough common sense, as members to MAKE an educated decision on which / what one we want........ not to just be TOLD "we the board made this decision because we know what is best " which is what was told to us at the meeting. Before anyone thinks i have anything to gain in this........ not at all. I didn't have one thing to do with this but put my name on the petition to say give the MEMBERSHIP of OESCA a RIGHT to make decisions in what they want. |
Ali wrote: You were there at the meeting. You saw how nasty the voting got.
It took 3 votes for them to come up with 1 extra vote against the issue. And that took them going out into the parking lot to get people to come in and vote against the issue. Actually, Ali, I was not there for the vote. I couldn't get away from my office until later that night to head down to the National. I just heard about it & was very surprised that the registry lost by one vote. I am glad that I will have a vote now, I am very in favor of it being open. |
| Sorry I wasn't clearer, but by "board" I ment this forum (OES.org). It is the people who come here who are new and excited about the breed who need people willing and able to step up and mentor them to further the breed instead of being afraid that they are going to be the next competition.
And in my past life I know a little something about getting out of an organization that you get nothing but abuse for participating in. I just spent a little bit of time reading the for/against mailings on the IG. I haven't seen the Stein sketch so i think it is unfair for me to make any opnion on one or the other. But I can make four points (and these are my opnions only): 1. Why can't the IG be all photos? 2. The first half of the opening statement's paragraph by Ms. O'Cuillan that calls out Mr. Stein and his drawing by name and bringing up 25 years of "bitter controversy" has no business being brought up and being placed in her argument. 3. Both her arguments stink of personal undertones. 4. Statements about time and money spent are not legitimate reasons to vote for something. What is wrong with sticking with old pictures/drawings of the breed standard? Isn't it those standards we are tying to maintain? |
| I don't want to hijack here, so I created my own thread.
Maybe one of you guys have an answer..... http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=13713 |
| VerveUp wrote:
"There is also a ballot included with the Illustrative Guide, about whether you are in favor or not for an open registry for Cerebellar Abiotrophy. There was a vote for this at the general meeting at the National this past year. It lost by only 1 vote which is why I am sure is why the board members thought maybe it was a good idea to mail out ballets." This balloting was NOT done at the Board's discretion. The two issues (CA Open Registry and Illustrated Guide) were brought to a vote of the membership because individual members submitted petitions in accordance with the OESCA bylaws (Article IV, Section 8 ) to challenge actions taken by the Board and, in the case of the CA registry, to readdress an issue that was decided by a very small margin (1 vote) at the Annual Meeting in October 2006. (It's a shame this wasn't mentioned in a brief cover letter with the mailing.) This was no small undertaking for the membership -- approximately 175 signatures are required to do this (20 percent of the regular membership). Approximately 200 signatures were collected and submitted for each issue. The people who organized these efforts (Joy Kelley, Carol Cooke and the Steins) are to be commended. They took a constructive approach to deal with what they perceived as problems in the Club. The Board is obligated to comply with the bylaws and had to take both issues to the membership for a vote. It's a very good idea for any Board to solicit input from its members, and in this case, the Board got input whether it really wanted it or not!  |
| You have at least one answer, Elissa!
I've said this before and my mentors don't like it because they think it is a line about them being old but if all the bickering keeps up then there will be about 4 of us left in OES when everyone is gone. At the 2005 National, during Mr. Mandeville's seminar, he asked if there was anyone there under the age of 30. I WAS THE ONLY ONE!!!!! People are correct when they say we need new blood. With all the nastiness going around there isn't going to be any! I know that everyone has strong feelings about what is best for this breed but the sad fact is that if all of this screaming keeps up, there will be no future. It's been said time and again that the OESCA membership is greying out (a sheepdog euphamism for it's membership ) and while all of these people are slowly getting older, their numbers are not being replaced with a healthy crop of new and younger people. (Not that anyone is old!!!) But at the rate things are going, it's going to be Deb, Colton and I left when everyone else is gone! Although, I guess we'd just get to do things our way then, hmmmmm. Maybe we should just wait everyone out. (Okay, at least I think I'm funny!!)
Anyway, I feel that since I am a member, I do get a vote in how things are run and how things will turn out for the future. Look at the open registry vote. If just one person hadn't voted then the outcome would have changed right then and there! So each of us does count for something! And why question something that worked? Maybe the board didn't agree with people at the meeting but the petitions and the loud voices counted for something because we are getting a ballot. You do get your chance to have your voice heard and the information paperwork even says that the Health and Research Committee is for it now. So what it makes it sound like it was their idea. If we get an open registry then at least it will have happened. But what do I know, I'm just the new kid! The mentor thing has also got me fired up but I'll keep it as short as possible. It took me almost a year of going to shows every single weekend to get a mentor in my area. People didn't even give me the time of day because of who I got my dog from or the fact that I didn't get my dog from them! A lot of it goes back to what Ali said about people not wanting to get yelled at or sued. I have been told that people didn't want to even talk to me because of who I got my dog from. They were afraid that bad things were told to me about them and they didn't want to get in the middle of it. 
So for any of the "old" people out there, help the new kids out! I still send info about my dog to that first breeder but since she's 11 hours away, how much of a mentor can she be? We all need someone who is close enough to drive to and give us hands on help. AND every little bit helps! So if you see some dorky new kid at a show and they are failing miserably, lend them a hand! Just letting them set up near you is nice. You don't have to give away any secrets or go against what someone else may have told them, just let them be in your presence and it helps a ton!!! Friendly faces are sometimes the best thing! And you never know what you might get out of it. Could be your new kid goes and wins the National. |
| What is the "Open Registry" and the related issues voted on, Please. |
| For someone who is just venturing into this arena, I can tell you that I am very young. It's not as intense in FL because there aren't as many OES, but even down here I an feel the tensions up and down the coast. I was so lucky to have a breeder near me that actively encouraged me to get into the OES community. I think she saw the importance of getting - as Mandy said - some new blood into the area.
Before I got Bingley Ian and I went to some shows and we were a little put off by how we were treated. We were pretty nicely dismissed because we were 'nobody's' - and young nobody's - in a world we had never been. Since we began showing Bingley with the help of our breeder and others who got puppies I have seen this atmosphere change to be much more welcoming. I know some of this is because three puppies out of the litter are being shown by completely inexperienced newbies, but we are dedicated to learn as much as we can about the breed, how to handle, groom, etc. If this new partnership could continue in other areas of the country I think it would lead to a more rounded and diverse view of the breed and eventually down the road many new voices within the leadership community. At least when I get to this point I will be able to count on the wisdom of someone who mentored me. Hopefully others will be able to pass down wisdom as well before it all dies out (that sounds really gruesome, I mean it as an expression) and leaves only 4 people involved in progressing and improving the breed!!!!  |
| Doing quick math (175*5 = 875) how many of OESCAs 875 members are breeders? Who are the others? Do husband and wife count as two? Demographics please! |
| gimme a couple hours to wake up........... just got up to let dogs out to pee and we ususally go back to bed til 9............. then i'll try to find a roster and look...
Ali |
| FWIW, some of you know that my deepest wish is to begin
showing and eventually breeding. I have been slowly trying to work towards it over the last few years, but for several reasons I have been stuck in my tracks. One of those reasons is the politics and disagreements that happen and can turn ugly. I am not good at those games and it has really put a wrench into what I'd like to do. I am not young - I am 10 years older than Maxmm, but I am new. From my perspective all the previous posts point out that this is a situation that perpetuates itself. (at least for me-) It is keeping me from joining the ranks and I may not be the only one. At my age though, I may be whistling in the wind to think of starting now. Shellie |
| Shellie et al.
I don't mean to burst your bubble or dissuade anyone from doing what they truly want to do. Just, go into it with OPEN eyes! AND EARS! FIND someone that will mentor you, and don't believe everything you hear about people. Even your mentor isn't going to like everyone but that shouldn't dissuade you from getting to know and make your own decision about people. Not everyone is going to like everyone elses dogs. That's just a plain fact. Just know you have to have very thick skin whether in this breed or others. And the old saying you have to 'pay your dues' you will hear over and over and over again. I just want everyone to realize, that just because the board (OESCA) puts something forth to you, don't accept it as truth and fact. Read it. Talk to others, listen to your mentor and others and then make a truly educational decision. AFTER you have all the FACTS! |
| Maxmm's reply was perfect IMO.... echoes my own thoughts almost exactly....
I think the focus in our breed has gotten severely off track. |
| Thanks Mandy. I think you pretty much said it all. I met you when you just became a member of OESCA. You have taken the bull by the horns by seeking out people.
It is not easy in this breed or, from experience, any breed. It has taken me 4 years to be accepted because, like you, I bought my TT from "them". You worked with people, were honest and it works out if you really want it to. As for OESCA, I have been a member for 25 years (no I am not and never will be grey!). OESCA is not unique. I missed the vote at the '05 national... had other things to do there! Maybe I would have been the ONE vote to turn the tide. We will never know. |
Shellie wrote: FWIW, some of you know that my deepest wish is to begin showing and eventually breeding. Shellie wrote: I am not young - I am 10 years older than Maxmm, but I am
new. From my perspective all the previous posts point out that this is a situation that perpetuates itself. (at least for me-) It is keeping me from joining the ranks and I may not be the only one. At my age though, I may be whistling in the wind to think of starting now. I just started a couple of years ago & I'm 40, so it doesn't really matter when you decide to start. The only thing I can't encourage enough is try to find a mentor. Luckily for you Shellie, you have Maxmm right around the block and you'll be stuck with me at some dog shows here & there. Definitely helps if you can get a dog from a breeder relatively close to you. Just enter some shows and after you've gotten beaten a few times from the other OES people around you, they start to feel sorry for you and then teach you stuff! |
Jo-Ann wrote: I missed the vote at the '05 national... had other things to do there!
Maybe I would have been the ONE vote to turn the tide. We will never know.Yeah, you were sitting with me at the welcome table in 2005!!!! Shellie, get your butt over here and get started!!! I've got dogs, you've got hands and you've got to start somewhere! Bring your pen too and I'll sign your application. You know you want it. The politics shouldn't dissuade anyone from being in the club. If people stop participating or won't join just based on that junk, where will the club and the future of this breed end up? |
Hi Everyone, I am in the same boat George is, I have no one to sponsor me. No one near me has O.E.S. I went to their site to print out a form to join and found out I had to have a sponsor. When I joined in years ago you did not have to have one ,I was surprised to see that. As for mentoring, and helping out, Mandy was very good to my husband Rick and I when we entered the Harrisburg show. She helped us with grooming , showed us around , and explained in general, how this show thing works. She made it a good experience for us, so much , as now Rick has turned into a show maniac She also had 2 dogs of her own to groom  |
| It was the same thing with sponsors and me. I wanted to join but didn't know ANYONE! I ended up meeting my sponsor through the forum, woohoo!
Once you meet one person who is in the club, it steamrolls. So for anyone who wants to join, contact your regional director and see who is in your area or where a local show is to meet some people. It's not nearly as hard as it seems! |
| Just thought this might be interesting to read, this is the "Statement of Goals and Objectives from our OES Club. Bad sportmanship is not acceptable in any form with what ever activity you are involved with OES.
As I said we embrace all, wether showing, obedience or just a loved pet. Everyone has the right to be a member and help in the future of the club. The club also offers full support to all and even Pet people get a lot out of being a member too with the club obedience and fun days & general information on the breed. Very sad to read all that does go on in the OESCA, I hope they change there ways and embrace the up and coming with a lot of help and support because without these newbies there will be no future. A breed club can only exist by it's membership and acceptance of all that have a genuine love of the breed.
The objectives of the Old English Sheepdog Club Of Victoria (Inc): To affiliate with the Victorian Canine Association Inc. and to promote and encourage the breeding of pure bred dogs and in particular the Old English Sheepdog. to promote and raise the standards and exhibition of registered pure bred dogs, particularly the Old English Sheepdog. to promote the holding of Exhibitions under the VCA Inc. Rules and Regulations and to conduct Exhibitions and/or to promote Obedience training and to conduct Obedience training and to conduct Obedience Trials, Tracking Tests, and Field Trials; to foster, promote and protect the interest of exhibitors of dogs at exhibitions and particularly the exhibitors of Old English Sheepdogs. to collect, verify and publish information relating to dogs and the breeding and exhibition of dogs; to educate and encourage members, breeders and judges to abide by the requirements and standards approved by the VCA Inc. for the conduct of Exhibitions and Shows; to promote good fellowship and sportsmanship amongst members and those participating in or attending at Exhibitions and Shows; to inform members of and make known to them the Laws and Regulations of the State relating to the ownership and care of dogs, and the responsibility of owners for the conduct and actions of their dogs; to hold functions and lectures relating to dogs and to the purposes of the Club generally; to provide awards and donate prizes for competition at Exhibitions and for the competition by breeders and exhibitors of dogs; to foster relations with other Clubs and bodies having similar aims; to promote and assist worthy causes, as agreed at a General Meeting of the members of the Club; to invest the funds of the Club not immediately required in such manner as the members or the Committee in lieu thereof shall determine; to purchase, hire, lease, etc. and do such things as are conductive or incidental to promoting and achieving the purposes of the Club; to carry on such other activities or promote or encourage interest in the breeding, upkeep and training of and the general well-being and improvement of Old English Sheepdogs and to do all such other things as may be necessary or conductive to carrying out the objects of the Club. |
| I am HOPING with ALL MY HEART that we do have a serious CHANGE in the up and coming election....... All but 1 of the people running from the floor have my whole hearted endorsement......as do I know a lot of other people...........
I'm not at liberty to say right now until it is published, but I know that they have their hearts in the right places. FOR THE BREED and FOR THE CLUB! So, I will say this. IF you are in my region and close by to me, yes I will mentor you and sponsor you AFTER i get to know you. The last people i sponsored (and this is why i said no more) I haven't heard one word from after they were voted in. And my name was used to do some things that had the people called me, they would have heard differently..... Ali |
So I'll save myself a lot of grief if I join the Old English Club of Victoria; will you sponsor me Lisa? 
Seriously, what is the purpose of sponsoring? Define "mentoring." Does that pertain only to teaching someone how to groom and show a dog for conformation? |
| Of course we would george, we would welcome you with open arms, heck we would even get you working, taining OES at our taining mornings as well, you are well qualified for that job
Even give you a sauasage from the BBQ and a nice hot cup of tea or coffee afterward. Always the BBQ going for all the people and dogs that attend. Doggies even get a bbq sausage too for being good kids |
George wrote: Seriously, what is the purpose of sponsoring? Define "mentoring." Does that pertain only to teaching someone how to groom and show a dog for conformation?
There are some purposes for sponsoring and I'm not sure of the legality involved. Just recently, the German Shepard Club of America had to allow the owner of Hunte Corporation into their club, because their membership requirements were rather laxed. Hunte Corporation is probably one of the biggest multiple breed commercial kennels in the US that supply puppies to many pet stores. Needless to say, many of their membership was not happy that he was allowed to join. This is just my opinion, but I think the sponsorship is put in place to ensure that people's interest in joining are sincere. Just imagine if they didn't have such tight requirements, and every puppy miller out there might be just paying the dues. Regarding mentoring, it's not about just show grooming, it is about hand holding a puppy buyer to guide them in raising their dog well. Certainly most of it is common sense, but mentoring in a different sense is about conformation, or if you wanted to pursue agility, hopefully they would be willing to get you started in that. Some people seek out mentors just wanting to learn more about the breed, maybe they are interested in breeding too and most breeder-mentors will be there every step of the way. They basically volunteer their time to ensure the betterment of the breed. |
| I am not a member of OESCA, don't have a dog from a good breeder, and may not have the credentials to join if I wanted to. BUT If standards are set so that someone like Hunte Corporation can NOT join like they wormed their way into The German Shepherd Club of America then I say keep the standards high. There is a great upset in the German Shepherd community over this move and I for one am sick about it. No one like this should ever be allowed to join any group that promotes any breed and breed standard. I have to say that my rescue dog and I were treated very nicely by OESCA members at the national and in my rescue efforts. I would hope if I ever decide to get involved in showing an OES that the offers would still stand!!! You know who you are I know there are more issues at hand than this but the fact that Hunte Corporation is now a member of The German Shepherd Club of America just makes me crazy. I would hate for something like that to happen in the OES arena. Maybe I have no business posting since I am not a member but ........ |
| Verve Up responded: Quote: Just recently, the German Shepard Club of America had to allow the owner of Hunte Corporation into their club, because their membership requirements were rather laxed.
Thanks for the clarification of both sponsoring and mentoring. Makes me more interested in membership. Also raises and alert to my goal of organizing an OES specialty clup in the St. L. area. How do you keep puppy mill breeders and back yard breeders from joining. Maybe you don't and hope the club can educate them to upgrade their standards. Still trying to get a reading on whether I need a personal inspection before sponsoring. Anybody in the OESCA coming to the Sheepiepalooza? |
| Joining OESCA is not difficult. I have sponsored a few people over the years and I would not sign unless I knew them to some degree. Sponsors are not hard to find. In order to join TTCA (Tibetan Terrier) you now have to be an associate member for a year and then after a year you must reapply for membership. It is not automatic full membership after the first year. OESCA doesn't make it that difficult.
My all breed club had a "home visit" requirement when I joined. Two members had to come and "inspect" your house before you were "allowed" to join. Now that is insulting IMHO. That stopped when I first went on the Board. People were turned off by that requirement and we were not getting new members. OESCA is no better or no worse than any other club. Any time you have hundreds of people together, you have differences of opinions. Not sure of the wording, but paraphrasing, "If we all agreed, we'd be boring....." |
4dognight wrote: I am not a member of OESCA, don't have a dog from a good breeder, and may not have the credentials to join if I wanted to.
Cindy, joining the OESCA has nothing to do with where you got your dog from. In fact they also have a rescue program, and I know of a couple of breeders who are also very active in rescue. Joining the OESCA has to do with your interest in the breed. They are a non profit group and I would say that the membership barely offset the costs of the mailings they do a few times a year. Plus Cindy, you do know 3 members pretty well now that I'm sure would be happy to sign your form! Regarding the home visitation, the sponsoring member does not need to do a home visitation, it's just a question on the form. One of my sponsors, who I met through dog shows was never was at my house. I definitely do feel that a sponsor should know the candidate a bit though just to truly understand their motivation for wanting to join. |
4dognight wrote: I am not a member of OESCA, don't have a dog from a good breeder, and may not have the credentials to join if I wanted to.
Cindy, you have a love of OES so IMHO you have the credentials to join. We had OES for about 4 minutes when our breeder sponsored us. I would have never learned as much about the breed if we hadn't joined. Some members don't even have dogs and are very involved. You don't have to have a show dog to be an important part of the club. |
Oh my I guess I did not word my thoughts right  I just wanted to say that I am not as knowledgable about all the things that this group would be involved in, maybe I still don't have the right verbage  I just am so upset about the hunte corporation that I am glad that OESCA has some sort of standards they might keep folks like that out of OESCA and to let people know that there are kind people that help others with their dogs. I had a member come to my house to help groom and evaluate some rescue sheepies and another member help me groom my own dog and others at the nationals take the time to teach me lots of things about the breed. I have not really thought about what I could bring to OESCA or what they could offer me. Just thoughts |
| My daughter LeAnne and I are new applicants to OESCA. While I am definitely over 30 - LeAnne isn't. We had checked into joining 10 yrs ago when we got Ollie, but ran into the unwelcoming, "you are new and dumb" type attitude, and never joined.
I may have been ignorant about breed specific things, but I resented being thought ignorant. I grew up showing and field trialing Brittanies all around the midwest. I was showing in the breed ring and in obedience and field trials before I even had my driver's liscense! Other friends of the family had me showing their dogs in shows when they needed another set of hands - I loved learning about showing different breeds. My parents were both kennel club officers, my dad was the Brittany trial rep for the US with AKC. LeAnne was just 13 when this happened. I chose not to expose her to people with bad attitudes. Now I do feel that there are changes being made. Maybe 10 yrs is long time to wait, but better late than never.  |
4dognight wrote: .........Hunte Corporation can NOT join like they wormed their way into The German Shepherd Club of America........
"If" memory serves me correctly, he wormed his way in after he purchased a puppy from someone (a higher up) in the club, with very strong objections of the sale by other members. Comments were even made that he was using that as a way to "worm" himself in, but....... The sale of that puppy and Hunt's initial attempts of getting in, ruined friendships. Some members left the club because of that sale. Way before he became a member. It all goes back to what Ali is saying about the election of Officers. A Board of Directors and its Officers can do a lot of damage while in office, if allowed to serve without being under the watchful eye of its membership. It seems to me that (not always), but in some cases, clubs are at greatest risk if they don't have an active membership. A lot of people want to "belong" to an organization, but don't "want" to volunteer, or show up for anything for fear of being asked to volunteer. When the membership fails to become involved in the club, regardless of what kind of club it is, it becomes a "private club" for those that do actively participate. Before you know it, you have a Board that starts working behind closed doors, manipulating things in a way to get what "they" want. Then enters the non-involved members complaining about things "after" the fact. The first rule in becoming a member of any club should be a minimum active involvement in some way - if at all possible. Keeps people honest, and on their toes. Good luck. jmop |
| I read what Ali wrote about and all her concerns etc. And I wonder why on earth would anyone want to be a part of a club like that. Let alone pay to be a part of. Clubs like that don’t better a breed, but rather stifle and damage one.
If things are that bad would it not be in the breeds best intrest to cause a shake-up and heck, if things refuse to budge for the best create another group and work on pressing it forward towards recognition? Just asking is all. The only breed clubs I am used to are the field trial ones my grandparents were a part of. And in that time and place they were generally a bit more laid back and open towards its members. Back then it all seemed so easy. Grandparents send in dues, went to trials/ shows. Talked to other members/ officers. Got reports on what clubs were doing. I never heard them complain once. Everything seemed really straight forward and open and friendly. Now that it is my turn to fully dive in I feel …well…scared and wondering if its really worth it after reading this post. I am in the middle of no where .. no local oes clubs.. no real regional oes clubs.. nadda.. mentor/sponser who i can meet with regularly.. not a chance.. basically.. other than the herd association (which oddly enough has a trainer in this state) im tough outta luck on oes clubs.. BUT tbh, the main club it feels, not right, to me at least. So I have really figured that till I move into a more "oes populated" I will focus more on the herding aspect of it all. Which oddly enough has a local trainer/club O.o |
Tanks wrote: ......and wondering if its really worth it after reading this post...
It is definately worth it. To change things takes determination and dedication. You may find yourself running out of both at times, but a boost from a fellow member with the same interest as yours are for the club is a quick pick me up. The comment you made is exactly the reason why people don't get involved. They've sat on the sideline, watched the bickering and who in their right mind wants to get in the middle of that nonsense. But, unless we jump in "heart" first, the problems will never go away. Your grandparent's were sincere in what they wanted to do. It wasn't for self gain. When it becomes "self interests" everything gets screwed up - UNTIL sincere, dedicated people stand up and say "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH," and "does something" about it besides complain. Don't be afraid of getting involved. Jump in with both feet and help change things so other people will "want" to be a member, instead of walking away feeling the way people have made you feel. mouthypf |
| Well said. |
Anonymous wrote: Tanks wrote: ......and wondering if its really worth it after reading this post... It is definately worth it. To change things takes determination and dedication. You may find yourself running out of both at times, but a boost from a fellow member with the same interest as yours are for the club is a quick pick me up. The comment you made is exactly the reason why people don't get involved. They've sat on the sideline, watched the bickering and who in their right mind wants to get in the middle of that nonsense. But, unless we jump in "heart" first, the problems will never go away. Your grandparent's were sincere in what they wanted to do. It wasn't for self gain. When it becomes "self interests" everything gets screwed up - UNTIL sincere, dedicated people stand up and say "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH," and "does something" about it besides complain. Don't be afraid of getting involved. Jump in with both feet and help change things so other people will "want" to be a member, instead of walking away feeling the way people have made you feel. mouthypf I will agree with you to a certain extent.. but i have to say im not the masochist (sp) type.. i especially dont like paying people to belittle me when i can have others do it for free =P there are so many thing about the national club that are off putting.. and as for the website.. lol.. all i see are people names flashed about and no real "bite" to the site.. ie info.. about anything.. so us new folk go there and are really turned away by the club right off the bat. IMO.. this board.. is the real national OES club. As this place is more helpful, informative and well.. here you learn and get help and get told off when you need to be.. the club.. you get turned away before you even start.. its a deffo non starter there .. not like i had a grand one here.. but hey.. least i am still kicking =P |
| Tanks wrote Quote: IMO.. this board.. is the real national OES club.
Well said. I think the OESCA could learn a lot from OES.org. Optimistically I was hoping that there would be enough local interest generated by Sheepiepalooza to organize a local OES speciality club. I contacted AKC and they are sending me an organization package. I asked if there is any other support that might be available and they referred me to OESCA. I called OESCA and their response was "contact AKC and when you get all the paperwork done and have a club, then let us know". I think that meant "Don't bother us... we don't care whether you have a club or not... and don't look to us for any support." Perhaps the best thing I can do through Sheepiepalooza is get people to sign up on OES.org. I know we are committed to education, training and development of the OES breed. We've proven it; and have the resources of 2000 members all over the world. And we'll have plenty of dedicated forum members present in St. Louis to show our colors.
Judi and I are most grateful to all those coming and the members of the forum for their wonderful support. |
| It is real simple... 30 years ago does not matter right at this moment.
Marilyn is just trying to change the focus of the petition. She has turned her position statements into a personal attack - rather than actually making a position paper. I am VERY appreciative of those on this list that have shared their input of 30 years ago, and appreciate the work and the way it was developed and presented. Visual human & veterinarian teaching is what I do professionally. Certainly receiving Member of the Year for my original work clearly demonstrates my work ethic, and the ability to work with people. Just because you are a medical specialist in thoracic, you would know anatomy, but you wouldn't know what a urologist knows. Medical/anatomical illustration is my area of speciality. Maybe those in charge of the IG do not know how to visually teach our breed. An example (which you can all see up on the OESCA site, and updated on the artist's site) is that of the topline. When Terry was presented with the topline art, she should have just turned it down. And to make matters worse, the drawing was then accepted by the JE Chairman. Looking at the illustration of the topline in the IG, one would think that the topline slopes at the loin the way the hands are facing. And furthermore, the hands position at the withers does NOT show that it s 'lower', as required in the Breed Standard. This is not educating visually. The dog, without the hands, would make a nice notecard. However, it does not illustrate breed type - and certainly does not illustrate the coat well. In Marilyn's rebuttal to our position paper, she talks about the Guide helping judges, and that judges should know structure before they judge, and that is all she mentions. This is such an elitist view. What about teaching the new breeder/exhibitor who has no clue. How is a young breeder to learn structure and its application to the moving dog. Debra Lehr mentioned the fact that few people work their dogs - another reason to have it right. When people read the early writings of the breed, they have to realize that these dog men saw OES working on their native soil and clearly understood how they should move and be built, and therefore knew what the standard should call for. The illustrations should bring the standard visually to the person looking at it - this Guide does not do that. Please, this was Marilyn's baby (as she stated to me 5+ years ago and again throughout the past 5+ years) - but as Carol Cook said, "Whose club is it anyway?". Marilyn made it clear at the Annual Meeting that we (the membership) would not be voting, and this was going to be passed WITHOUT the members. It was only the JE Chairman who requested the text input. Never did the Breed Mentors have input into the actual illustrations. Regardless of what has been claimed, we have on more than one occasion stated very clearly to both Marilyn and Terry that we wanted to do this project. It is very sad that they choose not to tap a qualified resource within OESCA. I was requested to do the Bearded Collie Illustrated Standard. However what is right is right, and so I told the Chairman of the project that they had to get over their dislike of a particular artist (who is in Beardies), because it was after all his breed, and I knew he would capture the essence of it - just as I would for my own breed! OESCA would have also reaped the benefit of correct structure and anatomy, since that is what I do professionally. Many in the OESCA membership throughout the past 30 years have said to me, and also Angela, why not just do it and publish it ourselves. The answer is that it is my breed, which I am passionate about, and I had wanted to give back my talent to my breed club - and I would have done it gratis. What a disservice to our breed from a small group that obviously has me branded 'persona non grata' by their leadership. The funny thing is that this small group doesn't even know me - but presumes to make assumptions about me, without even taking the time to have a conversation with me! Oh, and by the way, just FYI, that was the second logo for the 2006 National. Just ask the Show Chairman. I did the job after already spending 60 hours on the first logo, and you all still seem to be enjoying my art donations after all these years. Isn't it amazing that Chairmen of all the different OES art projects I have done, have no complaints? (Outside of my own Twin Colonies OES Club, that is, who acted like 5 year olds just because they had to paint bricks... now I ask you, how hard is it to paint bricks?) Talking of which, I think we should all drop the brickering - and just get on with what is best for our beloved breed! Back to the main focus - namely, that this is YOUR club, and this is an opportunity to see that this project gets done right. There is absolutely no point in having a sub-standard teaching tool, just for the sake of having 'something'. Our breed deserves far better than that. I am also appalled at the flip flop over the CA ballot-having been at the meeting in person, how is it that all of a sudden the very people who voted no to the open registry are now for it-exactly how does that work. Either way we need to vote FOR the open registry as a matter of record so there cannot be a flip flop again and then we are back where it started-going nowhere. Again this is OUR club and we need to speak up. If anyone wishes to actually see my work they can go to: http://tolkienoes.com/Medigraphics%20_Index.htm Larry & Angela |
| Thanks Ali.
I will say it again to everyone who wants to listen. Why can't the IG be based on photos? Can the membership agree that the winner (or past winners) of the National Specialty were the breed standard? Can we use those pictures? People know what the standard should be. They have been grooming their dogs to hide their standard flaws for years. I understand for pictures of the muscular/skeltal systems we need pictures, but come on people. Did the authors of Greys Anatomy (the book) argue about the structure of man? Why can't we use historical drawings? Has the structure of our dogs evolved in the last couple of decades? It's time to sh*t or get off the pot OES board members. If you can't suck up your pride, your ego, your personal attacks or your opinionated bull-sh*t then you should just remove yourself from the process. Or better yet, as members we should have the right to know who the Board members are who are holding up the process. Leaders lead the mebership. They don't divide it. |
| I have to say I have had an OES for over 10 years now (on the second "generation" my original rescue Max died two years ago at 13). WHen I was first looking for an OES before Max I felt very put of and dismissed b OESCA, and there was no way I could find a sponsor to join if I had wanted to. I adopted Max from the local humane society and I always douted the OES rescue would have granted me the same privledge.
I have two dogs from different breeders now and attended the nationals last year and probably will again this yera. At this point I still don't belong because believe it or not I think the membership fees are high, with no explanation of what I can get - other than belonging to an exclusive club. If I thought there was some value to joining I might reconsider. |
| You raise a VERY valid point! I know we get a yearbook..... (I forgot to mention that), It is SUPPOSED to come out every other year. However, it is getting to be more every 4 or 5 years....... there just aren't enough people to commit to this hard work. Or else, those that do, are not 'deemed good enough' to take on a task and are told to wait and they will find something less 'task oriented' for you.
I think OESCA has gotten away from what it's forefathers and mothers originally had in mind for this club. It has become a business and stepping stone for some people to get their judging career appointments off. In the beginning, for many years it was just a memographed newletter sent every month, then every other month, then they went to a nice magazine. Now the magazine is every 3 months.... We used to be able to see how the board voted upon items coming up for review........ with their comments so we knew why they were voting how they were going to vote. No more. We are not 'privy' to comments as to why............ If cost is the reason for this, I'm all for taking a backstep and getting information out to the membership in a timely manner........... and letting the membership KNOW what they are doing and WHY. Go back to the memographed paper....... yes, a magazine is nice........ but......... at what cost? I want to know the board is doing something and why and what the outcome will be. Who voted how, and why they voted WITH COMMENTS should they ;have them.......... It looks to me, (IMO) that they are afraid to see any of the above in print for fear they would be called on the carpet or voted out of office...... Well, maybe it's time they were! Membership, should be available to anyone that wants to join. And people should feel they will get something back from joining this club. Not just expected to pay and pay and pay. As for the home visit...... as it was explained to me by a board member: "This is so we can 'weed out' the undesirables. And yes it must be an actual home visit, if they don't adhear to all of our rules, we also will be able to "come back" on the sponsors should the need arise". Now doesn't that just make you want to :A) join and b) sponsor someone???[/quote] |
| tbh.. way i see it concerning the national club is this..
Why pay someone to belittle me... i can get that for free anywhere.. it's not like i get any real information or help from there.. so what good is it.. really.. i mean it.. what good is that club for the up and coming breeder/showers or regular oes owners? |
| I know some of you are on more than one list. Please forgive if you have seen this already. I just thought you might like to hear from someone else..........besides me and get their view as well.
Hi all thought I would share what I posted to the other list Interestingly enough some think it was Larry's work.. shows what they read,, and think.. lita Posted.. I have taken some time to think about what to share with those of you on this list who are not breeders or exhibitors but who still need to be informed.. I am Lita Long, part of the long time team of Blue Panda and I have been a member of OESCA for 28 years. I have been an active breeder and promote not only breed type but breed function by not only showing in the conformation show ring but by also competing in obedience, herding and therapy work as well as acting as a mentor to those who show an interest in the breed. I am asking all of you to understand that you have received a ballot from OESCA that is about two issues that should have come to you for a vote from the board of OESCA. But because the heads of the committees involved and the current and immediate past leaders of OESCA felt that you did not have the knowledge or the wherewithal to make good decisions they made them for you. The first issue is that of the open registry. It took a shout that was heard around the World from Joy Kelly who pushed for an open registry for the Cerebellar Abiotrophy health issue at the annual meeting held at the 2006 National Specialty. Because so many had made up their minds before listening to the facts it was voted down. Now, after receiving a petition signed by over 200 OESCA members the Board and Health Committee have joined the band wagon and with that support the issue should pass without further comment. What does need strong consideration is an issue that affects the future of what we will see in the conformation and performance competition rings as well as what kind of dog would be available as a pet, herding. therapy or service dog etc. In essence this affects all of us whether you are a pet owner or a show person. It is the Ilustrated Guide to the Visualization of the Breed and how tomorrow's dogs are to be judged and rewarded for being representatives of the Standard. What is of the utmost importance is your right to vote on such a topic. I would recommend that you take a moment to go the OESCA website and study the "guide". Ask yourself if you as a novice would understand it. Please remember that we are also asking potential Judges to learn about our Breed using this "Guide". The Board and a "Committee of the Few" are not only willing to accept this "guide" but intended to tell all of you that it is okay and you should not concern yourself about it. You have to wonder why they feel they have the right to make the decisions without asking for the input. A reflection of the true feelings of the OESCA Membership is the fact that a petition has been presented to the OESCA Board with over 200 signatures that tells them in no uncertain terms that we demand a vote on the issues. The head of the Committee wanted to get a project through, you are not required to like it, just accept because you are told to, with no chance of response.2. Their attitude seems to be; it is what we want and to heck with what is actually correct and truly educational, at least as far as what is good, bad, ugly or great examples of OES are concerned.3. No members with many years of experience in all phases of involvement with OES and especially no 25 year members were invited to add input, nor were they solicited for their hard won knowledge. Only a few copies have been made available and only by whistle blowing has this come to a vote so you the membership of OESCA have a voice. Make your vote count and show the Board Members that you have a brain and a voice and that as well, you expect to be asked and demand to be HEARD. I hope that for these reasons if no other that you do not accept being told what to do or think by the "few" and demand that your Regional Representative ask you about important issues and not make decisions on their own that will affect you. After all this is your Club and you should be heard. I have attached a response from the Steins about the surprise attacks that should never have been aired by the supporters of the Guide and will close by saying that we have an approved standard in force and that the "guide"on the OESCA website that has just been approved by the Board is what we were denied the right to vote on. There have been changes made to that Guide by the Artist that appear on her website. It is our understanding that these changes do not have the approval of the OESCA Board. I urge you to carefully consider your votes on this ballot that could give us all the right to have a say so on these most important issues that impact us all. I know I will not support these types of decisions being made for me without my input. Thank you, Lita Long |
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