Natural Balance Recall
Anyone else hear about this? Isn't Natural Balance the Dick Van Patten food? |
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| Yes it is the Dick Van Patten brand but their website so far says they are not involved in any recall.
NOTICE: Natural Balance® products are NOT involved in the Pet Food Recall. NO Natural Balance® products are associated with Menu Foods, or any other company involved. For more information, go to www.fda.gov. http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/ |
| Yes, I know it is not on their website. That is part of the problem. Apparently story I got was my friend is a member of a website or forum similiar to this one and someone I posted the news beause they claim the website got a confirmed email from the Natural Balance company saying they were recalling the food voluntarily. And it was noted that the reall was not on the Natural Balance site. Perhaps it will be later today.
The site with this information is http://www.itchmo.com I would be upset to learn people are now making this stuff up about different foods...However, unfortunately, it wouldn't surprise me. I guess we'll find out soon enough. |
Unfortunately, this is true. I went to Petco to get Oscar this food today, and there is a voluntary recall in place, due to reports of digestive issues. I called Natural Balance, and they say to try the Venison and Brown Rice wet food, and that they do not know when the recall will be rescinded. I am VERY UNHAPPY! 
Laurie |
YEP 
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/ NOTICE: We are receiving consumer complaints regarding the Venison & Brown Rice Dry Dog Food, and Venison & Green Pea Dry Cat Foods. We do not know what is wrong with the food at this time, but we have heard that animals are vomiting and experiencing kidney problems. Please discontinue feeding all Venison and Brown Rice Dry Dog Food, and Venison and Green Pea Dry Cat Food. We are working closely with the FDA. We will update this website today, as more information comes available. THIS ONLY AFFECTS OUR VENISON & BROWN RICE & VENISON & GREEN PEA DRY DOG AND CAT FOODS |
| Yes, I saw this on the Natural Balance home page too. |
| It just never ends...
Is there any wheat gluten or wheat in the food? |
Willowsprite wrote: It just never ends...
Is there any wheat gluten or wheat in the food? Here's the ingredient list INGREDIENT LISTING Venison, Venison Meal, Brown Rice, Ground Rice, Rice Bran, Peas, Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Inulin, Taurine, Natural Tocopherols, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D Supplement, Folic Acid (Vitamin B). |
| Actually, that's rather scary. I don't think it has any wheat or wheat gluten in it. Here are the ingredients...
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogfor ... ngredients Venison, Venison Meal, Brown Rice, Ground Rice, Rice Bran, Peas, Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Inulin, Taurine, Natural Tocopherols, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D Supplement, Folic Acid (Vitamin B). |
Okay Amanda... so you beat me  |
| So I wonder what is the cause this time? |
Willowsprite wrote: So I wonder what is the cause this time?
I think a small amount of the problem is mass hysteria. |
ButtersStotch wrote: I think a small amount of the problem is mass hysteria. Yea that was my instinct as well. It will be interesting to see if there are any concrete problems. I really hope it is just paranoia! |
| When I posted thr recall this morning, there was nothing on their website. Now I see it is there...Makes me very nervous. All along the foods had one thing in common and that was the wheat gluten...Natural Balance doesn't have any wheat gluten...I feed Wellness which doesn't have any wheat gluten either but....
My thoughts are on par with some others on this forum. Any illness or symptom a dog displays is going to be blamed on tainted food. But you know hat...maybe their dogs just didn't adjust to the vennison...I know I don't like it 
But I still don't know...are many of you cooking for your dogs now? Using a holistic diet? I'd like to hear what everyone is doing for suggestions... |
This morning, we went to one of the stores listed as a supplier of Eagle Pack. When we got there we found they don't stock it. He offered two varieties of Natural Balance... one was venison. I told him that they were pulling this variety because of a possible problem. He hadn't heard anything about it.  |
| Petco pulled it from their shelves this weekend, but I bet there are a few small pet store distributors that still haven't heard the news.
And here I was a few weeks ago, so smug that our wonderful dog food wasn't on a recall list........that'll teach me!!! I'm really in a quandary. Oscar is on the NB Ven and Rice for his Inflammatory Bowel Disease, and this is after trying over a dozen different foods over a two year period. To switch him means that he is going to have all sorts of digestive trouble from vomiting to diarrhea - literally from one end to the other!
I have a few days worth of his old kibble, so it looks like we'll have to switch unless something gets resolved post haste. As he just had blood work to check his kidney function before surgery last week, and he had a routine urinalysis on Friday, all of which came back perfectly fine, I think I am going to continue to feed him the NB, and start mixing it in with his new food. It's the only shot I have of keeping his digestive system under control, which probably will not work anyway. (Based upon his lab results, and the fact that he is having no symptoms, my vet thinks Oscar is in no danger with this food.) Am I being a horrible sheepdog mommy? Laurie |
Hi Oscar's Mom 
One of my shaggies (Brodman the Big Benji fella) was on Old Mother Hubbard's Wellness for Allergies - Simple Venison Formula/Rice Just an idea... Finding & keeping a good kibble feels like a full time job 
Good luck Diane http://www.omhpet.com/wellness/dog_well ... nison.html Simple Food Solutions Venison Formula offers your dog a unique protein choice for their journey back to Wellness®. We’ve limited this unique recipe to one meat protein, New Zealand Venison, and one carbohydrate, Ground Brown Rice. They are perfectly complemented with only 3 other essential supplemental ingredients: Brown rice protein, flaxseed, and sunflower oil. Simply 5 main ingredients of superior quality that combine to cover the complete nutritional spectrum your dog requires. This will help create the type of harmony in your pet’s body where chronic conditions, allergies, and ailments are not allowed to survive and flourish. And, they provide your dog a delicious meal. Venison – Venison meat is lower in fat than beef, pork, chicken, and even some seafood. It’s healthy, lean and rich with delicious flavor. It’s also high in protein and iron. Our New Zealand-raised venison is chock full of essential vitamins and minerals and low in saturated fats. Ground Brown Rice – A highly digestible and energy-giving carbohydrate with only a trace of fat. A great choice for the health-conscious because of its high percentage of carbohydrates and only a trace of fat. It is a fantastic grain substitute for wheat, because it is gluten-free and non-allergenic. Product Ingredients | Ingredient Index | Vitamins/Minerals Ground Brown Rice, Venison, Brown Rice Protein, Flaxseed, Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Natural Venison Flavor, Taurine, MINERALS: [Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate (a chelated source of zinc), Iron Proteinate (a chelated source of iron), Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Proteinate (a chelated source of copper), Copper Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate (a chelated source of manganese), Manganese Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite], VITAMINS: [Beta-Carotene, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin C, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin K Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement]. Guaranteed Analysis Crude Protein Not Less Than 21.0% Crude Fat Not Less Than 12.0% Crude Fiber Not More Than 3.0% Moisture Not More Than 11.0% Omega 6 Fatty Acids* Not Less Than 2.5% Omega 3 Fatty Acids* Not Less Than 0.5% *not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO dog food Nutrient Profiles Product Guarantee Animal feeding tests using AAFO procedures substantiate Wellness Simple Food Solutions Formulas provide complete and balanced nutrition for maintenance. |
| Thanks Diane! I will definitely look into Old Mother Hubbard.
I am so jealous of people that can feed their dog anything, switch foods whenever, with no consequences.  And I'm a wreck worrying about every piece of kibble Oscar eats! |
| Ought oh
Natural Balance Recall Expands to Canned Food and Treats
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/press_release.html http://www.itchmo.com/read/natural-bala ... s_20070417 BREAKING NEWS: Natural Balance Recall Expands to Canned Food and Treats Itchmo has confirmed with Natural Balance that their recall has expanded and now covers the following items for all dates: Venison and Brown Rice Treats for Dogs (New today) Venison and Brown Rice Canned Formula for Dogs (New today) Venison and Brown Rice Dry Food for Dogs (Reported Sunday) Venison and Green Pea Dry Food for Cats (Reported Sunday) The problem stems from melamine found in the rice protein concentrate (described by the company as rice gluten) used by Natural Balance. They confirmed that FDA testing has found melamine in the rice protein concentrate. The ingredient was produced by a US vendor, according to Natural Balance. Natural Balance recommends avoiding all rice protein in their products. They have also confirmed that customers are reporting “a few cases” of kidney failures, which their original announcement described as “kidney problems”. The items recalled are packaged (but not manufactured) by Diamond Pet Foods. The problem was discovered Friday and the FDA is testing all other ingredients and formulas. In the packaging process, the final food is run through Diamond Pet Foods machinery, but are overseen by Natural Balance quality assurance staff. Natural Balance says it will reimburse the pet parents for medical expenses related to the melamine toxin. NOTE: The recall expansion has not made it out to the mainstream media, but we expect it to do so shortly. UPDATE: Natural Balance is not yet releasing the name of the US supplier. We’ll let you know as soon as we know. UPDATE at 7:37pm Eastern: Natural Balance updates their site. Full release after the jump. Natural Balance Pet Foods,® Inc. Issues A Voluntary Nationwide Recall on Specific Venison Dog & Cat Food Products Contact: Consumer Inquiries: (800) 829-4493 Media Inquiries: Daniel Bernstein 310-275-0777 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE — Pacoima, CA — April 17, 2007– Natural Balance, Pacoima, CA, is issuing a voluntary nationwide recall for all of its Venison dog products and the dry Venison cat food only, regardless of date codes. The recalled products include Venison and Brown Rice canned and bagged dog foods, Venison and Brown Rice dog treats, and Venison and Green Pea dry cat food. Recent laboratory results show that the products contain melamine. We believe the source of the melamine is a rice protein concentrate. Natural Balance has confirmed this morning that some production batches of these products may contain melamine. The recall was prompted by consumer complaints received by Natural Balance involving a small number of cats and dogs that developed kidney failure after eating the affected product. Dogs or cats who have consumed the suspect food and show signs of kidney failure (such as loss of appetite, lethargy and vomiting) should be seen by a veterinarian. We recommend our customers immediately stop feeding our recalled venison products regardless of date code and return unused product to their retailer for a full refund. The products are packaged in bags, cans and zip lock treat bags and sold in pet specialty stores and PetCo nationally. No other Natural Balance products are involved in this voluntary recall as none of our other formulas include the rice protein concentrate. Although the problems seem to be focused on a particular production period of the venison products, over the last four days we have notified our distributors and retailers by phone and e-mail to immediately stop selling and return all recalled Venison dog foods and treats and the Venison dry cat food. Venison canned cat food is not involved. The source of the melamine appears to be a rice protein concentrate, which was recently added to the dry venison formulas. Natural Balance does not use wheat gluten, which was associated with the previous melamine contamination. None of Natural Balance’s other dry formulas, none of our other canned or roll products and none of our other treats are involved with this voluntary recall. We continue to work closely with the FDA in their ongoing investigation. Consumers with questions may contact the company at 1-800-829-449 or email info@naturalblanceinc.com. |
| Oh Diane!
So now it's a different ingredient entirely?!? Quote: The problem stems from melamine found in the rice protein concentrate (described by the company as rice gluten) used by Natural Balance |
| Wonder if its something with the "gluten" part? First it was wheat gluten and now rice gluten...What the heck is gluten anyway?
Didn't Diamond foods have a problem like this before? |
| Dictionary.com
glu·ten 1. the tough, viscid, nitrogenous substance remaining when the flour of wheat or other grain is washed to remove the starch. 2. Archaic. glue or a gluey substance. Wikipedia.com Gluten is an amorphous mixture of ergastic (i.e., non-living) proteins found combined with starch in the endosperm of some cereals, notably wheat, rye, and barley. It constitutes about 80% of the proteins contained in wheat, and is composed of the proteins gliadin and glutenin. Gluten is responsible for the elasticity of kneaded dough, which allows it to be leavened, as well as the "chewiness" of baked products like bagels. It is the glutenins (specifically, low molecular weight glutenins) that are especially critical to gluten quality.[1] |
| Wow, this seems to get scarier by the minute. |
| I AGREE! |
| I guess what bothers me is that I looked at the ingredients in the Natural Balance Venison and Brown Rice and then at what the company posted on their website...
"...The source of the melamine appears to be a rice protein concentrate, which was recently added to the dry venison formulas..." Source: http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/press_release.html Ingredients List: Venison, Venison Meal, Brown Rice, Ground Rice, Rice Bran, Peas, Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Inulin, Taurine, Natural Tocopherols, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D Supplement, Folic Acid (Vitamin B). Source: http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogfor ... enDog.html I don't see any mention of a "rice protein concentrate" or "rice gluten" in the above ingredients. Can mfr's. simply list it as rice? |
6Girls wrote: I guess what bothers me is that I looked at the ingredients in the Natural Balance Venison and Brown Rice and then at what the company posted on their website...
I don't see any mention of a "rice protein concentrate" or "rice gluten" in the above ingredients. Can mfr's. simply list it as rice? I was wondering about that...because if that is the case...tons of foods have rice in them |
| This is crazy- I just switched to this food thinking it was safe.
I am ready to start cooking. Maybe the dogs are right after-all.. they always want what I eat. |
| I agree with you Jaci. They recently change their ingredients, but don't list it on the bag? Now I am switching Oscar to Nature's Recipe's venison and rice formula, as they have listed on their website that their products do not contain rice gluten. I was looking at Wellness Venison and Rice, but I am leery as the rice listed on their ingredient list says "rice protein". I think the venison source in the Wellness is better, as Nature's Recipe's first ingredient is venison meal, but with this rice issue, that is a secondary concern.
Oscar saw the vet today for a bandage change (all is well!), and he took blood to run a kidney panel, just to be on the safe side. When I decided to do the gradual food change, it was before all of the kidney failure info was out. Just can't risk it, IBD be damned, and I have thrown out his old food. Let the fun begin......... Laurie and Oscar |
| I see they've updated their website to include this rice protein concentrate in the list of ingredients now...
Venison, Brown Rice, Ground Rice, Rice Bran, Venison Meal, Rice Protein Concentrate, Peas, Canola Oil, Tomato Pomace, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Methionine, Inulin, Taurine, Natural Tocopherols, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D Supplement, Folic Acid (Vitamin B). You've gotta give this company credit for acting quickly though... http://naturalbalanceinc.com/faq.html We acted so quickly because our Registered Veterinary Technician/ Customer Service Representative received six calls on April 12th (Thursday) and April 13th (Friday) all from dog families who had started using a “new” bag of our Venison & Brown Rice Formula Dry Dog Food. Because we never see a cluster of six phone calls about one of our products we decided Friday afternoon that there must be a problem with the newest batch of the dog formula even though we did not know what the problem was. We decided at that time to initiate testing to try to determine the problem, but at the same time, we decided to stop the further distribution of the Venison Dog and Venison Cat dry formulas even though we had not received any calls from cat households on Thursday or Friday. |
| What bothers me is that their search is only focused on "glutens" If the melamine was used as fertilizer, it would be the entire plant affected. |
| Anybody have any good recommendations on books for dog nutrition, cooking for their dogs, etc? I think I will be going that route...so far the Wellness Puppy is still okay but I am getting ready for the next shoe to fall...
I'm not big on the raw food diet but isn't that one you can cook? |
| I found this place online-
https://secure.balanceit.com/_client/index.php The nutritionist from MSU's veterinary center recommended another place to get recipes called PetDiets.com (diets are $50 each for a basic diet). In the information I received from PetDiets.com, they included a recommendation for a supplement to ensure a balanced homemade diet. Balanceit.com They say this supplement is designed specifically for people who homecook for their dogs/cats. They also offer homecooked recipes based on the foods you'd like to feed. 1 Recipe $20 2 Recipes $30† 3 or more Recipes $12.50/each† You might check it out then discuss it with your vet to see if it's appropriate. |
| Diane just sent me an article from USA Today that said this ingredient was also imported from China...
"...The rice protein concentrate was imported from China by San Francisco-based Wilbur-Ellis..." Source: http://www.usatoday.com/money/industrie ... lled_N.htm "...Wilbur-Ellis CEO John Thacher said his company sold the concentrate to five pet-food makers, but that most of it went to two firms. One of the primary companies was Diamond Pet Foods, which packs some of the Natural Balance product but doesn't use the concentrate in any Diamond-made foods, says Diamond spokesman Jim Fallon. The other major customer, which Thacher would not name, tested the rice protein and found no melamine, Thacher says..." That "trust us" garbage is what got us into this mess in the first place. I think they now need to earn our trust. |
| Hi guys:
I was reading this thread - the melamine that was found in Natural Balance, as most of you have probably read - is from the GMO rice they believe. It is horribly frustrating and I really feel for people that feed kibble out there - it almost seems like a waiting game - what next. But I've read some posts about people wanting cooked food recipes and saying raw food diet isn't for them. I'm curious why raw food diet seems problematic to so many OES people as compared with other breeds? We discuss this a bit on the NaturalOES list - there are people on that list that cook diets, feed kibble but are curious about raw and then people who have been feeding raw for a long time. I'd really like to know why raw seems so scary to some people and not to others - please inform me. Judy & Mick |
Saltydog wrote: I'm curious why raw food diet seems problematic to so many OES people as compared with other breeds? We discuss this a bit on the NaturalOES list - there are people on that list that cook diets, feed kibble but are curious about raw and then people who have been feeding raw for a long time.
I'd really like to know why raw seems so scary to some people and not to others - please inform me. Judy & Mick For me, it's gross to look at ,handle, prepare, and carries too much risk FOR ME of bacterial food borne illnesses. Not to mention the risks of choking, bones perforating intestines and bowel, bacteria in their beards and on their paws which is a health risk to the humans they live with if not themselves. Also the time and cost involved is prohibitive for some. |
| Willowsprite writes:
For me, it's gross to look at ,handle, prepare, and carries too much risk FOR ME of bacterial food borne illnesses. Not to mention the risks of choking, bones perforating intestines and bowel, bacteria in their beards and on their paws which is a health risk to the humans they live with if not themselves. Also the time and cost involved is prohibitive for some. Judy writes: OK - that would be one perspective. And obviously shared by many people - at least in the OES fancy. In bernese mt dogs - over 50% of ALL owners feed raw and in many other breeds the numbers also high and growing. I wonder if people who like the super hairy breeds are more focused on hair-based worries? Mick has a fairly long coat - about 7-8 inches right now and I just don't find any issues with feeding raw but I did learn by feeding a less hairy breed - my bernese only had hair about 4 inches in length. But obviously there are risks in everything in life! Even feeding kibble - from the poisonings this year, to the poisonings in recent years and even choking deaths in dogs. To me the risks of what you and others specifically fear are very very small compared to the benefits that I see - in dogs that are switched to raw, in dogs that are from raw fed parents. But I am assuming that a person who decides to feed raw uses some logic in how they feed of course. There are people in all endeavors who leap before looking and make others nervous when they land on rocks. Since I'm in the position of guiding hundreds of new raw feeders per year - it gives me a different perspective - I see so many dogs and experience all the possible issues associated with owner concerns and dog reactions. Just so this is on record for others to read, I've fed raw for over 10 years. I prepare and handle it daily, often without gloves, and since I've been feeding raw - I have gotten perhaps 5% of the colds I used to get before that. After reading the same comment by so many people - I do believe there IS a relationship between some good bacteria in healthy quality food and staying healthy yourself. I have a sheepdog that people ask me if he just had a bath on a regular basis because he is clean, smells good and has such a nice coat - and it has been almost 12 months since he has had his last bath - he will get one when I'm going to trim him in May. And no - I don't wash his face or his feet after he eats but that is something other people have done with many breeds out there because they wanted to. I've never had a problem with bones and while yes- I know of people who have reported such on the internet - they usually were mistakes - dogs got into cooked bones OR they were inappropriate bones for that particular dog who ate aggressively and the person gave too small a bone. I HAVE gone to a veterinary talk where they made the claims of germs and impaction but when asked to show the numbers of patients that actually experienced ANY issues as such - they couldn't come up with even 1! And I find feeding raw to be less expensive than most high level kibble bags of food but of course - I've had some time to build up relationships. My breeder friend who has 14 goldens feeds all those dogs raw and finds it not problematic in time or finances. But best of all - I know exactly the quality and type of ingredient going into my dog at all times under all circumstances. I respect that people aren't interested in feeding raw but on the same token - I can't imagine ever feeding my dog something so inappropriate as rice or wheat or artificial vitamins and minerals. It think it does come down to doing research and I hope that people don't just read someone's fears OR claims (like mine) and make a decision. Instead they do research and find out what the real results are from people - especially experienced people. Judy & Mick |
| For now, I still feel safe feeding dry kibble. Crosses fingers on my brand/type and them fixing the problem. I've looked into RAW several times and its what they recommend for labradoodles (what I was going to get) by the main 2 places that produce them, but I saw and read about WAY too many dogs getting sick from it and several dogs dying (but the deaths were on both my maltese boards). Who knows though to what my opinion will be tomorrow though... my opinion about dog health changes frequently! |
| 2 main reasons for me...My husband is a retired profesional chef (with all the attendant food safety and health training) and he is horrified at the idea...especially the feeding of raw chicken. Bactieria is a risk for dogs, as well as people, and there is a difference between grocery store chicken, and a wild dog killing and immediatly eating a bird.
The other thing that has always bothered me (and it is, admittedly, a phylisophical thing) is the assumption that "wild" or "natural" nessesarily means "healthy". Wolves do NOT live as long a lives as domestic dogs (although they are genetically very very close) and anyone who has ever dissected a wild canid can tell you...they are far from parasite or disease free. Now...having said all that, (in answer to the question "why not...") I also want to say that I am interested in learning more about different alternatives for feeding my dogs, and I'm keeping an open mind.  (ps...please forgive the awful spelling...my spell check is non-functional  ) |
| I have a lot of respect for those who feed RAW and do it well, but I think too many are misinformed, or uninformed, about how to make sure it IS done correctly.
I think it's great you've had such success with it... but I won't even handle meat for my human family... blech! LOL |
Am I alone wondering why Raven is dissecting wild canids?  |
The University of Alaska, Fairbanks has a wonderful biology program....even though I was an art student (which, by the way involves a fair amount of HUMAN dissection ) I took a lot of wildlife biology classes  |
| Raw vs. Commercially Prepared Food... always the controversy.
For us, it's the fact that we have 6 dogs and they all share our home, furniture and, yes, some share the bed with us (don't ask!). I discussed raw with Dr. Sarah Abood, a veterinary nutritionist down at MSU's veterinary center, last week because I wondered if it would be a healthier way to go. I was also interested in giving them raw bones to help keep their teeth clean. She pointed out that they use their paws and legs to hold a bone and this gets on their feet and leg fur. With 6 dogs there is a much greater risk of human food poisoning. Article- Should Your Dog Eat BARF? Source: http://www.workingdogs.com/vcbarf.htm "...Added Sarah Abood, DVM, assistant professor of small animal clinical sciences at Michigan State University’s veterinary school: "To the best of my knowledge, I’ve never seen anything in the veterinary literature suggesting a documented health benefit of raw meat diets"..." "...Both the pets and the people in the home are at risk of moderate to severe GI disease, especially if there are breaks in hygienic standards, and this has been well documented," Dr. Abood said. "Although there are some who claim that dogs and cats can handle these bacteria, I would be just as concerned about the person preparing raw meals for the pet each day. Despite one’s best intentions, shortcuts or deviations in a hygiene protocol can occur, and put family members at risk for infection."..." We did home cooking for a few weeks and just introduced a new food that we, at least for now, feel somewhat comfortable with. |
| Thanks for sharing with me on the raw diet fears and concerns. I know when I looked into raw for my puppy - I had many of these same concerns but doing my research, reading real books and mostly talking with people that were "into" raw gave me a different perspective.
I do see greater health in raw fed dogs - even in those that are switched mid-life but especially in multiple generation dogs. And to me it merely makes alot of sense. While we use wolves as a model to look at digestion, we seek to supply the best version of their diet. Wolves - as we all know, are subject to tough conditions in the wild which do lead to early deaths - usually related to fights within packs and to bringing down food. And they have to deal with weather issues as well as being harrassed by humans. I recently read a fascinating paper put out by Tufts Medical Center on the fact they feel now that a certain level of worms (parasites) is important for proper good health in humans. In fact by adding worms to humans suffering from several diseases - they were able to eliminate those disease symptoms in those patients. Natural rearing dog owners also feel that aiming to eliminate all possible parasites does not lead to maximum health and that healthy individuals usually DO have levels of parasites but that these parasites do not reach an "infestation" level unless the animal is in a weakened state. (ie heartworm positive dogs are usually rescues or in very poor condition) I'm so jealous of people who live in Alaska actually who have potential access to meats that I'd really love to feed my dogs. If I had my choice - I'd only feed elk, moose, caribou, venison and seal plus a few lambs. Domesticated animals leave alot to be desired although you can get better stuff if you work with pasture-farmers. For every argument against raw, I know of arguments that combat what has been said and much of the anti-raw sites out there are written by people who don't know much about raw or worse - like the ones by our local Tufts vet expert - are paid by kibble companies to "study" raw diet concerns. But all that said - it is merely an option that some of us feel is a good and healthy and easy option. I don't ever try to convince people to feed raw but I am always saddened when I read the same arguments that I feel aren't based upon knowledge or facts but are based upon fears or people seeking to undermine a concept. Raw diet is NOT a fad - it is what people fed dogs and/or dogs ate for thousands of years. There is a reason that the meat that Mick does the very best - that makes him glow, makes his coat lovely and that he enjoys with the most gusto - is lamb. It is what most herding breeds would probably eat back then when the farmer had lots of mutton leftovers but not alot of cash. Kibble has only been around for 60 years as a food item for dogs - it was based on economics and people wanting something easy. 60 years doesn't even register on the evolution scale. My choices for my dogs rarely are based upon what is easy but instead what I feel is the best for maximizing my dogs immune system and over-all health. Thanks again for answering my questions - I'll see you on other topics. Judy & Mick |
| Judy,
some of us have never even thought of a raw food diet. thank you for enlightening us on the benefits. for those of us who are new to all of this could you post a sample of what exactly your dog Mick would eat in a day? thanks, |
| Kim:
Just as there are a myriad of kibble choices - there are a ton of raw diet choices. I started feeding raw based upon a book called Natural Nutrition by Kymythy Schultz - a breeder of Newfoundlands and a nutritionist by training. It taught one to make your own diet following principles developed by Dr. Ian Billinghurst - a vet from Australia. That included feeding certain percentages of raw meat, raw bone - either whole pieces or ground up, organs and some veggies which were designed to mimic some stomach contents. It seemed complex at first but the book walked one through it and I found it quite easy. There are other raw diet gurus - some include dairy, some include some grains, some never include these NOR veggies but instead only focus on the whole animal. There are books that discuss all these things. In the last couple yearss, people wanted to feed raw but were busy with lives and so raw diet "companies" evolved that made prepared raw diets that come in tubes or patties or cubes. These are "designed" to be balanced, follow the same principles as above and some even follow the same nutrition guidelines as kibble and have AAFCO certification - which is a group that "determines" what is nutritionally "complete" in kibble or canned food. These tubes or patties come in sizes that range from 1/2 lb patties to 1 lb tubes to 2 lb tubes to even 5 or 10 lb tubes. You can dish it into a dish and feed it to your dog - and it supplies raw diet that is ground up so that a new raw feeder doesn't have to be concerned about bone pieces but still gets real calcium as part of the diet. It is a great way to feed raw right away WHILE you do research about what you want to do. Still others believe there is true benefit to chewing and that it is a very key element in raw diet. I happen to be in this crowd - I moved away from Billinghursts model and instead follow Lonsdale model (the whole animal) but I hold the hands of people who prefer to start with patties because I feel it is always up to the owner to do it the way that makes them most comfortable. And I'm not a purist - I feed some ground stuff but it is always the ground whole animal when I don't feed whole pieces. There are lots of companies on line that supply to local stores - Bravorawdiet.com is one, naturesvariety.com is another. There is a lovely company called Hare-today at www.hare-today.com, which provides ground up whole animals (so you get the exact percentages as found in the animal and there is no guessing or mimicking - ie. no using veggies to mimic tripe(stomach) - you just feed tripe) AND they also provide whole animals or parts of whole animals to "build your own". These different raw diet camps argue and have very strong opinions in some cases but the bottom line is they all share a few of the same concepts. 1) focus on raw because it is what the dog ancestors bodies evolved eating 2) focus on the percentages as found in the prey animal - such as a deer or rabbit and 3) include a calcium supply - either whole bone that is chewable, ground bone or calcium supplement - ground eggs, bone meal, etc. If you are interested in more details - I don't want to over-step my bounds on this list but you can join NaturalOES - a group found at the yahoogroups list or email me at Rigleyman@aol.com and I'll help you get on the list. I run the list. It is open to anyone. I am passionate about what I do but we have people of all stages of interest on the list. No one has to do what I do and you don't have to believe in raw to be on the list - you only have to love OES. Today Mick had a meal of 2 lamb shanks (whole) plus some ground up organs, bone, meat and tripe (stomach) from mutton. He ate it outside as he always does. He stripped off the meat from the bones and left the bones behind. Tomorrow he will have a whole cornish game hen including organs - raw and yes - all the bones. Yesterday he had a portion of an entire turkey ground up including organs and the day before he had some beef, beef organs, beef stomach, beef bone and other beef parts. I enjoy giving him all this variety and to list the general variety he gets over a month - it would include lamb, beef, pork, chicken, cornish game hens, turkey, duck, rabbit, fish, elk, buffalo, venison, goat and quail. I feed 80% red meats and 20 % or so other meats because Mick does better on red meats. Other people feed more white meats - they are cheaper and more easily found. And yes- my dogs eat better than I do since I control their diet. I may err and eat a yodel or too much yorkshire pudding but they never get to eat bad stuff but I do share left-overs with him. Mick is 2nd generation raw fed which means his breeder switched his grandparents to raw and his parents only ate raw and Mick has only eaten raw. I feel so passionate about the value raw diet brings to the health of dogs I would not purchase any dog of any breed that wasn't at least 2nd generation raw fed - I feel it makes a difference. I searched for years before finding any OES people that fed raw and fell upon Mick - I was so excited - it was the only way I would get an OES. And he has several friends in the area now that switched to raw and they love it - it cured one females IBD (inflammatory bowel disease issues). Hope this helps a tiny bit - obviously this is hardly any info at all - I'm happy to point anyone in the direction of reading about raw. Judy & Mick |
| I can't believe this food is recalled! On Monday night our local news did a piece on pet owner concerns on what dog food to purchase with all the recalls occuring. They spoke to 2 managers at pet food stores and both recommended Natural Balance! |
| Screw it all... I decided to only feed Yuki whatever I eat. tonight it's zucchini bread, leftover lasagna, and salad with cream-a-licious lots of ranch. If I can die of clogged arteries, high blood pressure; she can die of pancreatitis and obesity.
We'll just have to work on the red-colored beard she'll have after meals.  |
| Saltydog,
Thanks for the interesting, and informative posts!
Just one (very specific) word of caution, for you and anyone else for whom this may come up... please do NOT feed your dogs wild, raw moose, or caribou (from Alaska...I'm not sure about elsewhere) as they almost ALWAYS have a particular worm (I appologise for not having the name at hand ) that is contagious to humans and extreamly dangerous. The worm does not hurt dogs (or, more frequently wolves) who contract them, but for people they can be very bad. Up here, many rural folks do not feed their dogs kibble, but rather, salmon.
I will ask my vet for the name, etc. on this if anyone wants more info. |
| Why are Oes people worried about the raw diet? I don't think it is specific t OES owners. I would put my money on the fact that MOST pet owners are leery of a raw diet. And maybe for no reason other than the fact that a raw diet is not one people are familiar with...And of course, since raw food for humans is not recmmended, (okay sushi, but many people don't eat that either!), that theory passes on to their pets...
I have known Wendy Volhard over 30 years and she is known as a dog guru on many subjects, one of which is dog nutrition. She started with cooking meals for her dogs and now uses and lectures about the raw diet. Her book is on the all the recommended readings...BUT still, I am uncomfortable with the diet so far. Why? I don't know...But I am researching it further...Meantime, I am also researching cooking for my pup - which by the way goes against any of these raw diets since they believe it is the cooking process that destroys all the necessary vitamins, etc... So again I ask the question, does anyone cook for their dog and/r can recommend books, etc t look into it further? |
| I am not leery of a raw diet, I just know that with my job and having this many sheepies in the house it isn't feasible for me to cook or give them a raw diet. |
| Thanks for the tips on moose and caribou and yes - I know about the raw salmon thing. We don't get a chance to enjoy most of these ever down here in Massachusetts but you have got me into research mode now. How fun!
Regarding cooked diets - there is lots of interest in that right now. I know that Monica Segal up in Canada has put out a couple books on diets - one raw, one cooked. Each book is about $ 6.00 - very cheap and there are diets described in the books. I totally dislike and disagree with the raw diets she describes but I'm sure others find them fabulous and don't mind doing all the stuff she recommends. I didn't buy the cooked diet booklet but it is one source. Wendy Volhard is a leader in the natural diet community. I have considered getting a Landseer from her lines of dogs - maybe some day! Another source for cooked recipes I will have to get for you. It is by a veterinarian who is very very famous in the gastro-arena of vet medicine. He is highly respected and I'll have to get the fantastic quote that is going around - basically him saying there is absolutely nothing wrong with feeding dogs what we eat as long as it is WHAT we eat - not just fatty scraps and the part we reject. I'll find it and post it. Back soon. Judy & Mick |
| Thanks Judi...yu can pm me too if others are not interested...
Thanks. |
| OK we are the road to healing.B is still very weak in the rear end, but we are working on that. But I am feeding her serior nutro for weight control, well we don't need that any more. So I thought I would start mixing in a new food in the old Nutro so she won't get diarrhea again. Do I use dry,canned or what? |
| Dr. Donald Strombeck wrote a book called "Home-Prepared
Dog & Cat Diets: The Healthful Alternative" - a book that anyone who wants to feed a cooked diet might be interested in. He is a retired professor of veterinary nutrition at the University of California, Davis, and has challenged the common assertion that owners should not feed their pets table food. When he began practicing veterinary medicine in the 1950s, he said, most pet owners fed their pets scraps from the table, keeping the risk of contamination low. "The pet food industry doesn't want people competing with them," Strombeck said. "An animal can basically eat the same things we eat. They're not going to develop a deficiency." This man is considered by most vets to be the "father of canine gastroenterology". Judy |
| I've got this book... we fed the Poultry Meat and Rice diet to Kaytee for a few months. She was underweight because she had been tube fed the first 4+ weeks of life (cleft palate). We had a heck of a time getting weight on her. We would make it up in a crock pot and refrigerate it for up to 3 days. There are two versions of this specific diet... puppy and adult. There are also more recipes including recipes for specific illnesses like renal failure, urinary tract stones, heart disease, pancreatic disease, liver disease, etc. As always, consult your vet before making any major changes in diet especially when dealing with dogs that have specific illnesses and chronic conditions.
The book I have was published in 1999... I wonder if there's a more recent copy??? Donald R. Strombeck, DVM, PhD He has received numerous awards including "the Ralston Purina Award for research excellence in small animal diseases for his work in gastroenterology". We stopped feeding it because Kayt grew tired of it... if I were to use the diets again I would alternate between different types of protein/starches (Whole Dog Journal) to help ensure nothing is missing from the diet... balance it over a short period of time instead of trying to include EVERY thing in one pot. I might also consider using BalanceIt instead of the potassium chloride and bonemeal... would have to read up on this product more first though. I read one online article that said the sardines or clam juice his recipes called for were a poor source of taurine (see below... this is why we consulted with Dr. Abood) HOWEVER Dr. Abood, the MSU veterinary nutritionist, said that I didn't need to add taurine to the homemade food unless my dogs had specific heart trouble (cardiomyopathy??? can't remember for sure). THIS is why you should check with your vet about your own individual dogs because the first rule is always "DO NO HARM". The Article: http://www.api4animals.org/facts?p=359&more=1 "...Donald R. Strombeck. 1999. Home-Prepared Dog & Cat Diets: The Healthful Alternative. Iowa State University Press. ISBN-10: 0813821495, ISBN-13: 978-0813821498. Note: Veterinary nutritionists have suggested that the taurine and calcium are too low in some of these recipes. Clam juice and sardines are poor sources of taurine; use taurine capsules instead..." Here are some sources for the book... http://store.blackwell-professional.com ... 21498.html Sorry, no longer an Amazon fan because of the cock fighting stuff they sell but they do have a good price: http://www.amazon.com/Home-Prepared-Dog ... 0813821495 |
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