Explaining to a friend why not to breed their dog
I am so used to being in the company of people who "get it" that I find I have a hard time starting at square one with people now to explain why NOT to, especially when I'm trying hard not to come off like a total know-it-all jerk and ruin the friendship. Other than trying to educate the crap out of them, how else can I gently explain why not to breed? |
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| Oh, I will be listening in on this thread!!!!
I have the same problem. Even when I explain and show them facts (on paper) why, I know I've done nothing for them since they are set on doing it for the money and to do what they feel is right... " breed a dog with such a beautiful personality. all the neighbors say so. not to mention my mom bred dogs all the time when i was younger. she had about 2-3 litters a year." |
I got upset about this yesterday, too. It goes on all over the place. 
I would come about it from the standpoint, "who deserves to be bred to your dog?" in addition to asking how all the health certification checks came out. Encourage them to join their local bulldog club to see what the good points of the breed are. maybe they'll find a mentor while they're at it. 
I don't know - it sucks! |
| I don't think there is an easy way. There seems to be a
big gap between those who "get it" and those who just don't or won't. I also think there is a period of time for those just learning don't think there is any harm in "just doing it once." Like they are exempt from the reasons they shouldn't be breeding. It seems to take some time for them to come around. It's not like- here are the facts and here is why you shouldn't breed, and then they go - oh, ok I guess you're right. It takes some time. I have had this conversation with friends and it can put a real distance between you no matter how gently you try to present it. You can always go for the other approach too. Take the person to the animal shelter or put them in contact with the breed rescue. Anyone at rescue could be more blunt without risking your friendship, and maybe the change-over to "getting it" would be quicker! Just a thought. If they are in love with their breed, rescue might be a great catalyst. Shellie |
| In addition to all the reasons you already know, the bulldog is NOT the breed for a novice breeder without support. Is your friend aware that they almost NEVER deliver naturally? Scheduled c sections are the norm for that breed, and that alone brings it's own risks, a lot of them. Risks to what few pups survive, risks to the bitch, and financially there is nothing to be gained from breeding any breed properly, let alone a bulldog when your chances of spending a LOT and losing it all are so high.
I'd really try to talk to your friend about the reasons behind wanting to breed. |
Willowsprite wrote: Scheduled c sections are the norm for that breed, and that alone brings it's own risks, a lot of them. Like COSTS. (Since they're in it for the mooolah.) |
| Luckily, this girl seemed more surprised than anything else when my immediate answer was "Oh, don't do that." I went the way of telling her mostly about health checks for the parents and how expensive that can be. I tried to explain breeding to ensure that there are no problems in the line, i.e., careful research into the pedigree. I couldn't immediately name off all of the health problems that that breed is prone to, which may have made my argument stronger.
They have a male, which they want to breed with a female from down the street so I don't think they feel like they're going to be as responsible. I think they feel like they're just providing the stud so they'll let the 2 go at it and then step out of the equation. They want a puppy out of the litter but the primary reason is for money. I think I'm more worried about the people who have the female because they're going to be the ones who are really in for a rude awakening. |
| take them for a walk through the local animal shelter! |
| A walk through the shelter is a very good idea and maybe research bulldog rescues and see why they are surrendered and just how many end up in shelters/rescue. |
| It is so sad when dollar signs get in the way of good judgement.
Do you know the neighbor's with the female dog. Maybe if you passed the information to them too. They will be the ones putting their beloved pet at risk. And if they are in it for the money, an estimate from a vet (c-section, puppy shots, deworming...) might change their minds. |
ButtersStotch wrote: .....I am so used to being in the company of people who "get it" that I find I have a hard time starting at square one........
May I also suggest you use your local newpaper as a tool. First look to see how many dogs there are, how many are her breed, how much they're being sold for. Find out how much the ads cost. Total that with the possible cost of surgery, the food, shots, worming, etc. Do the math according to what her pups would sell for. Try to stay away from the not breeding "is the right" thing to do. Show her there is no money in breeding. Remind her of the damage puppies can cause. Like chewing up the floor, chewing the corner of the wall, etc........ Sometimes fixing their damage can cost more than what you would have made from selling them, even without normal puppy expenses. Remind her that "yes" you might find homes for them, but can you be assured of their future in those homes, or will your baby become just another shelter dog....... Good luck. |
| I think it is harder when people are motivated by wanting a puppy from their own dog. They are not necessarily concerned about costs (which will likely be borne by the family with the female). Some close relatives of mine for years wanted their beloved pooches to have a pup. Luckily, for no particular reason, it did not work out. But no amount of logical argument would have deterred them. It is like telling people not to breed because of overpopulation. Awareness of the general problem does not change the individual desire. I think it would be easier to show someone interested in it for money how uneconomical it is. |
| I find when you can't convince people who should know better in the breeds not to breed with bad hip scores, and such it is harder to convince the novice not to. |
shylass wrote: I find when you can't convince people who should know better in the breeds not to breed with bad hip scores, and such it is harder to convince the novice not to.
How true. And sad. |
| All I can say is good luck. Recently I just went through this same thing...and lost. But maybe you can share this story with your friend...it cant hurt.
A girl from school and I have been pretty good about studying together. I found out a while ago that she had dogs. Naturally we began to talk more and more about them. Her comments were mostly related to litter size, and how much she could charge for each pup. I tried my best to persuade her that breeding her bitch was a bad, and costly idea. I thought if I took a stand from a financial POV then she would reconsider. She didnt. Once her dog preggo, I tried to get her to take the dog to the vets often (which I think she did pretty well) But when the time came, she was too inexperienced...and they had to rush her dog to the vets. They lost 5 of the 9 pups, and mamma almost didnt make it. That was what convinced them to spay her and that breeding her may have been a bad idea. Now that the pups are almost 10 weeks old...she still hasnt found homes for them, and is having trouble with the owners of the stud. They are wanting her to keep the pup they own until they are sold. They dont want the hassle of potty training, etc. So she has 4 pups barking, peeing, chewing, and just being pups...and they are driving her nuts. Not to mention the cost of feeding them and vetting them (which she did do too) It has been a real eye opener for her (unfortunatly it took a litter for her to see...and 5 pups dying). I have been worried that the longer the dogs are with her, the likelyhood of just anyone getting them increases. I have been pushing taking them to a nearby rescue...so we will see how it pans out. You cant force someone to do things the way you want them too...but it never hurts to try. BTW....I tried to stay as neutral as possible when talking with her about it....even though I have strong feelings about the issue, its not really my place to preach or judge. Hopefully your friend will change her mind. Good luck! |
| I would gather lots of info, print it off. Have her contact the vet, ask about c-sections. Ask the vet about the x-rays...as she should do her male as well. Get the price on the blood work etc.
Then find out more about typical litter size. Knowing that a bulldog often has whale pups (not sure if that's name)...but they are put down at birth. A Bulldog may only have 1-2 surving pups, if they agree to let you keep one for free...who's making money...you have lost money on this endeavor. They don't think about the expense of laundry soap, dog food, vet expenses, toys, and each puppy should leave with some sort of care pkg with a bag of food at least. In my opinion, they need to see a list of expenses, the risks for bull dogs, the care for min 8 weeks...and longer if they don't sell. That is alot of poo duty, and pee everywhere, the house will smell, and they won't get any sleep...esp if the c-sec make the mom reject the pups, and they have to hand feed. Bulldogs sell for 2-3000 here, and I would never pay that for a dog that can't breathe, and have weight issues, and they can be grouchy. Not to mention the dogs ages...both should be over two. If you don't succeed in changing her mind, at least they will be better prepared for the risks involved, once they get the information they can no longer claim ignorance on the subject. Owning the male as they do, they probably don't care...and that is unfortunate. |
| I saw a tv show that profiled a english bulldog breeder. From what I understand, they are not able to reproduce naturally. Conception and birth. They are artificially insemenated and then they give birth by c-section because they have such large heads. Very costly.
Then pups can be whale(?) which is a birth defect immediatly apparent at birth. They are euthanized. The tv program showed 2 of her litters being born. Of the first litter, none survived (whale or stillbirth). Of the 2nd litter, 3 died (2 whale, one more died later at home). The breeder was there in the operating room wiping off the babies as they were each pulled out. When she picked up a whale one, she knew instantly and handed it over to a vet tech, telling them to put it down. Of all the breeds of dogs to decide to breed, I can't imagine one more full of heatbreak. |
| It's actually a French bulldog-- I left out an important word. |
| The breed all about it on fbd's was 90% health costs. I still can picture the family in my head. Now I'm not trying to say this is as a negative about the dog because the love for a breed is unexplainable to those who own one, but I don't see it as too much better than what was originally thought (bulldog).
I wish there was an easy way to show people the light, but I think that about a lot of things.  |
| Aha. Not sure if the whale(?) birth defect also occurs with French bulldogs. Did a little quick reading and seems they often require artificial insemination as well as often require cesarean deliveries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Bulldog |
| Maybe, if artificial insemination is nessesary for this breed, the owner's ignorance will just solve the problem by itself??? |
| All I can say is GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It seems that when someone decides to breed their dog there is very little you can do to deter them. Time and tTime again we have seen people come to this board looking for advice on breeding. Has ANYONE EVER changed their mind and said THANKS FOR EDUCATING ME????? Not that I've ever seen. They usually take great exception to the advice given and end up telling us what terrible people we are. |
Tasker's Mom wrote: Quote: They usually take great exception to the advice given and end up telling us what terrible people we are.
Sorry nothing important to add. I am just laughing hysterically because from previous posts I have read I would say Ginny is 100% correct. |
Ginny is absolutely right. The folks that I have come across who mention that they are breeding their dog rarely listen to anyone about why it might not be such a good idea. My SIL has an intact male (don't even get me started), and she was approached by a woman when they were both getting their respective dogs from the groomer's. The woman had a female sheepie, and told my SIL that they should get the two dogs together and have a litter of puppies. YIKES!!!! Those dogs could be sis and bro for all they know!  Makes me crazy.
I liked the idea (4dognight) of having your friend check out a French Bulldog Rescue. Maybe if she sees how many dogs end up there, including some of her potential puppies, she wouldn't be so quick to pursue breeding. It's worth a shot! |
ravenmoonart wrote: Maybe, if artificial insemination is nessesary for this breed, the owner's ignorance will just solve the problem by itself???
We can only hope.... |
| I just want to add tho, that I learned alot from people on how to do this properly, and I researched for a year on breeding...specifically to cross breeding, and hetertosis. I made sure to find the health info on both sides, it was easy for the male he had his pedigree. I'm not justifying what I did, but I can assure you it never made us any money, simply because we didn't believe it charging high prices. And I can't brag enough about how wonderful these dogs turned out to be...I am thankful to have had the help and information, and found a good mentor.
Even tho no one detered me, I did listen to all the advice, and did every single test and made sure they had great homes, had the contract, and every pup was spayed/neutered. I did it, and I appreciate that most here were willing to make sure I went in the right direction to do so. So I think if we keep educating people on breeding, that is better than being judgemental and rude about it...it might do more good than you realize. |
| I didn't realize you showed your dogs Daisie. |
| No I don't do showing...I would never have the time. I find it very fun to watch, but it's not for me. I don't agree with the type ideals...because that leads to breeding poorer dogs just to have a specific look. OES is still good, but some of those other breeds...they have sooooo many breathing problems and like the Bulldog can't even have a natural litter...all for the sake of a desired look...more wrinkles, more pushed in face, big heads...I think it can do more harm than good.
I do like the idea of UK stopping the "norm" and esp cropped ears. I like a docked tail, but I do not like cropped ears. |
Daisie wrote: No I don't do showing...I would never have the time. I find it very fun to watch, but it's not for me. I don't agree with the type ideals...because that leads to breeding poorer dogs just to have a specific look. OES is still good, but some of those other breeds...they have sooooo many breathing problems and like the Bulldog can't even have a natural litter...all for the sake of a desired look...more wrinkles, more pushed in face, big heads...I think it can do more harm than good.
Don't mean to take this thread into a different direction but I find that a very odd statement. The purpose of showing before breeding is to insure that dogs meet breed standards and are free of defect. If you are breeding to your own standard/ideal you are doing nothing but producing designer dogs aka mutts. |
Daisie wrote: No I don't do showing...I would never have the time. I find it very fun to watch, but it's not for me. I don't agree with the type ideals...because that leads to breeding poorer dogs just to have a specific look. OES is still good, but some of those other breeds...they have sooooo many breathing problems and like the Bulldog can't even have a natural litter...all for the sake of a desired look...more wrinkles, more pushed in face, big heads...I think it can do more harm than good.
I do like the idea of UK stopping the "norm" and esp cropped ears. I like a docked tail, but I do not like cropped ears. The type ideal? OES are not having the same problems as other breeds are. Sheepdogs are bred for structural soundness not for an aesthetic ideal. These dogs are supposed to actually be able to do the job they were intended for and I do not know of one good breeder who is breeding just for "pretty" dogs. Put your hands on a good, winning dog and you will find a hardy dog who can run all day! |
| A nice little update:
My friend was very thankful for the web sites that I sent her and actually said "I had no idea this was so complex." It seems like the other people are more of a problem because it sounds like they think they know everything already, however, if they did, they would not consider breeding their dog with a random pet store dog. I don't know. I feel like I did my part and as much as I could without getting really annoying and jeopardizing the friendship. I actually feel pretty positive.  |
| There you go. Every little bit helps and if you can stop this one dog from making other little dogs, you have made your little corner of the world better!
(Did you like my Pollyanna view of this? ) |
| good to hear. i'm impressed! |
| I'm impressed too.... if even one person thinks it through it can prevent generations of unwanted puppies from being born, not just that one litter. |
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