sheepdog for sale
i can no longer take him to the dog park because his dog aggression is getting worse. he has never bit a dog but he picks on the submissive dogs to no end. his aggression towards my family is peaking again. the funny part is were starting to crack down on his bad behavior and hes only getting worse. were using positive reinforcement and it works after he goes crazy and tries to bite one of us.... oh and now that we can see his eyes we can also see all those dirty looks hes been giving us haha! hes getting aggressive during play too which wasnt a problem before. now that he cant go to the dog park or work with me his only exercise is running in the backyard. we have a huge yard and we used to play for hours back there but now he runs full speed at us and jumps up growling. also hes been shoving toys at us recently and if you tell him no he gets really mad and growls and sometimes nips. we start with our new trainer monday the 23rd. my assignment for these next weeks is to get him used to a muzzle. the trainer said that its not safe for me to work with him when he has a temper like this. i put treats in it and he digs in but if i leave it on and take my hands off he starts to paw at it. but were progressing slowly and im sure everything will be ok by the 23rd. on a positive note(woohoo!) the food aggression is going wonderfully. after hand feeding him for 2 weeks he is now eating out of a bowl in my lap. periodically during the meal i take it away from him tell him to sit and pretend like im eating it. no signs of aggression at all! he knows where his food comes from now and i think soon ill have other family members help out with this too. i just thought id give an update on walter the terrible. when we have weeks like this its very discouraging but the new trainer gives us hope and the progression with food is encouraging as well. i find myself shaking my head and saying 'oh walter...' all too often these days. hes lucky hes so cute |
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| Heather,
I hope that you find the training effective. It is so scary when you can't predict how he is going to react. I'm sure that everyone is on edge - which he can pick up on - and it's probably making it worse for all. With all the weather turmoil (hurricanes, etc.) - there's so much going on in the atmosphere that we don't always pick up on - maybe Walter is reacting to something. Wishing you the best! Stay strong! Kristen |
| I've often wondered about dogs picking up on weather and things like that too. Just before an earthquake once (so small none of us were sure if it even was an earthquake or just REALLY loud thunder) my great dane was acting up like crazy! She was barking and growling at the floor and ground for a few hours before it happened. Also, running back and forth in the house, pacing, and started peeing on the floor though her house habits were impeccable before that. |
| Heather,
Have you had Walter tested for hypothroidism??? There's been studies to link aggression with hypothyroidism. I would look into this for Walter if I were you! Dr. Jean Dodds is an expert on this area and has actually done studies on OES in particular. She provides lab services and interpretation for this testing (as most "normal" tests aren't specific enough). Check out www.hemopet.com for information on Dr. Dodd's services. Also - you can look at some articles pertaining to this subject on the Beacon For Health website (it's generally geared towards Bearded Collies but has alot of great information and articles). http://www.beaconforhealth.org/Thyroid-Aggression.htm It may be something to look into - especially considering you feel like his behavior has become worse. Let me know if you have any questions - I can try and get you in touch with someone who's been through this. Kristen |
I am glad there is progress with Walter! Its good news! My 3.5 month old kinda does the jumping, nipping thing too. I have stopped playing tug of war with her, because I think she has dendencies towards agression. Very nippy puppy. We call her crocodile child because she uses her teeth on everything and everyone! Hang in there! He is lucky to have such a loving and patient family.  |
| walter just attacked my brother for absolutely no reason and drew blood on his arm. i heard it and came downstairs and walter rolled on his back. he knows what he is doing is wrong.. i just dont understand what is wrong with him. hes by my door right now laying down... i put him in a downstay and have not let him up but he is beginning to show his teeth at me.
i think there is a dr at walters new vet that specializes in behavior so i will be making an appointment there for next week. i dont know what to do. i feel like crying. i am so frustrated and feel so defeated. |
| Oh, I am sorry! I am thinking maybe Kristen is right about it being a thyroid problem. If he is doing this for no reason, and seems like he can't control himself. Hormonal imbalance? I have no real advice, but just wanted to tell you to hang in there. |
| yea- kristen i forgot to say thank you for those websites. im going to check them out and talk to the vet about them.
walter has earned a place by my side at all times on a leash with a prong collar. he cant be free to roam the house anymore... so its back to the laundry room while im away. its very sad for the whole house, i know if he just behaved he would have such a wonderful life. thanks again to everyone for their support. this message board has really helped me vent and get my frustrations out so i can go back to trying to help walters situation. |
I'm so sorry to hear about Walter's regression... he sounded like he was doing so well for a while there...
Hang in there! |
| Heather,
I'm sorry that you're going through this! Hang in there! I hope you get some answers soon - as it must be very trying on the entire family. I'm sure Walter feels bad about it too! Kristen |
| Heather, could you describe Walter when he was a puppy? What kind of behavior did he exhibit? Were there any clues as to his agression problem? |
| Heather,
I know EXACTLY how you feel. It's been a little over a year since Buckley bit one of our friends- once in the face and once on the back...I cried all night. I really thought that was it for him, but we talked to a guy in our area thats a rescue contact for oes and he taught us a few things (mainly "work for everything" idea). While he hasn't bitten anyone since he has lunged at 2 people and growled at some our friends on occasion. He has gotten to the point where we can let him out of the crate when people are over, but only toward the end of the night when things are starting to wind down, and we still keep him by our side on leash. We have friends (and family) that are always asking why in the world would we keep a "crazy" dog- but all they have to do is see him come over while I'm sitting on the floor and lay down as close to me as he can get with his head in my lap and they understand. I know he is making progress as is your Walter and the set backs are terrible- you feel like you've just went backwards 6 mths, but keep it up. Just the fact that he is making progress shows you're doing something right! The trainer will help as will consistant dominance training at home (ie. feeding from hand, making him work for attention, food, etc.) Good luck and keep us posted! Cindy & The Monsters |
| Heather,
What's the status of Walter's behavior??? Is today the day he starts training? Thinking about him and hope that things are a little better! Kristen |
| he starts training next monday (the 23rd)
things have been ok... no more 'attacks' but hes being very rough in play. things are going slow with teh muzzle but thats mostly my fault for not being consistent with it. im just kinda laying low and trying to avoid any incidents before training, but ill keep you guys updated! |
| I'm so glad you're sticking with him, all too often people abandon their pets because of problems like these, and I can understand, but at the same time if it were our kids we wouldn't give up without a fight!
You really have to give yourself a lot of credit for putting your love for him first, putting him first, and doing your best to make sure he becomes the best dog he can be. |
| Yeap! I am with Willow! |
| like i said he sure is lucky hes cute... and no one would take him if i tried to get rid of him! (i can joke because its been a good day)
i had to jinx it though because the other day we had two of our worst bites yet. one to my boyfriend and one to my brother. they both seem to be the target as of late. im also frustrated because the muzzle is not working out. it pushes his fur up by his eyes and he cant see. plus he is still pawing like a maniac unless hes getting treats shoved in his mouth. he looks like a dork with it on too. it is a mess kind that has an opening at the end so he can eat and drink. the only other i know of is $35 and has no opening at the end. its expensive but i might have to go for it... oh walter. |
| Is it possible that Walter is jealous of those who pay attention to you? I'm thinking that because you said he bit your boyfriend. Maybe Walter sees your boyfriend as a threat. Another dumb idea of mine.....perhaps an animal communicator could find out from Walter why he bites (if you believe in stuff like that--I do).
Paula O. |
| Heather,
I'm sure your brother & boyfriend were targets because of the male testosterone and Walter trying to prove himself as alpha over them! I was wondering - assuming Walter is neutered - I've heard of problems where there have been "undescended testes" during neutering - where one of the testes may have been left in - causing the hormone levels to be that of an un-neutered male - and the behavior problems that go along with those hormones. (Ron - was this a problem with Jake ???) I know that you've been unhappy with your Vet in the past (don't know if that was related to quality of care) - and if all else fails with training and behavior management - I'd look into this issue further. I may be grasping at straws - but it's worth the grasp! Kristen |
BritPresSyd wrote: I've heard of problems where there have been "undescended testes" during neutering - where one of the testes may have been left in - causing the hormone levels to be that of an un-neutered male - and the behavior problems that go along with those hormones. (Ron - was this a problem with Jake ???)
That's true... Jake came to us with records from his vet that said: "The right testicle was small and hard to find", leading us to believe that while they had a tough time finding it, that they had removed it. They hadn't. We uncovered this when he developed cancer in that testicle, and our vet didn't do a simple ultrasound looking for a "cryptorchid" because he had been successfully neutered, according to the records. So the diagnosis took a lot of time (and about $1000!! worth of expensive blood tests) before the vet said: I've got to do this ultrasound, and voila! At his age, the operation almost did him in, but it was necessary to save his life. He had what is called a Sertoli tumor. His symptoms were thinning of his coat (we shaved him down and his coat didn't grow back well at all), hyperpigmentation or a mottled appearence of his skin, and enlarged nipples. Sertoli tumors produce estrogen by the bucketloads. I'm not saying that Walter has this condition, or cryptorchidism! A couple of pages on testicular cancer in dogs: http://www.2ndchance.info/cryptorchid.htm http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/arti ... p?id=94469 Kristen -- You made me laugh, then I asked Joan about it just to be sure. We never thought about the fact that we were dealing with an essentially unneutered male all those aggressive years! I can laugh about it now, now that the scars on my hands have healed. |
| Oreo was thought tp have an undescended testicle so he had an exp lap to find it. Well he had no testicles yes this is odd. A specialist in this field was consulted by my vet and he had seen one other dog with no testicles. We did the surgery to prevent cancer later on. He also had a tooth appear from no where he had his adult teeth at the time the vet look and said it is a tooth and to watch it as it could mess with his teeth, once again the odd thing happened this tooth fell out I saw the empty bloody space. He had a lot of blood work prior to his surgery to help the vet and as a base line for the future. Strange things so happen and he is the most loveable sweet dog not because he is mine this is his personality and the norm for the OES. |
| so the new joke in the house is "shh! youll wake him up!" or "oh great... you pissed him off"... now that we can see his eyes we can definitely see the dirty looks hes giving us !
but i just bought The Dog Listener: Learn How to Communicate with Your Dog for Willing Cooperation, by Jan Fennell, training starts monday, and im calling on monday to make an appointment with the behavior specialist at the vet... PLUS the little monster is all tuckered out from running through the field out back(which earned him 20+ burrs.. i cant imagine if he were in full coat... yikes) so things are looking up! |
| Hi Heather!!
Sorry about your recent troubles with Walter- if its any consolation I know how you feel! I had a behavourist come to my house regularly when my female OES Millie was about 6 months old. She was showing little bits of agression and I was mortified to say the least, and scared it would progress and she would hurt someone, and end up in big trouble. Anyway- the behavourist showed us the Gentle Leader. Have you seen it? It worked really well for us, and also she explained that we should just let Millie wear it around even when not training as it puts light pressure on the back of the neck- instinctually bringing them "down a notch" in attitude and giving them the idea that they arent the boss anymore. That worked great too! Because boy let me tell ya- she was trying for the Alpha dog spot in our house! Later I found out from this behavourist, this was because I wasnt doing the job- so she thought she would! Millie and I both have come a long way! Im sure others on the list can explain the Gentle Leader to you better than I can! And maybe youve already checked it out- anyway- hope you find a good solution for him. Good luck to you so much with Walter- he is so adorable! Sincerely Becky and Millie  |
| a little update:
we went to training yesterday it was a 1 hour class with a guy who specializes in training aggressive dogs. it is by no means positive reinforcement- they use corrections iwth a prong collar and it is pretty tough on the dogs. if i had a puppy or a dog with no behavior problems i would not advocate this but my dog challenges me daily and positive reinforcement did not work. (haha just a little disclaimer) walter was fine with his muzzle which i was proud of. we had to laugh about how defiant he was but eventually he did everything very smoothly. there were times when id say down and hed look at me like 'yea right lady... YOU go down'. but after a while he did everything very very well. the funniest part was when i was putting him on his side and having him keep his head down while i checked out his paws and pet him all over. he was not happy about rolling on his side so i got a bit of a work out. everyone had a bit of a chuckle seeing as hes almost as big as me. eventually he did it and im so glad that i learned this skill because last time walter had something stuck in his paw he would not let me look at it. i think this is something every dog should know how to do for their own safety. so the lesson went pretty well, were going to a group class on thursday nights. they learn how to interact with other dogs and also go over basic obedience as well as some off leash stuff. i think this will be great for walter and hopefully will stop the signs of dog aggression ive been seeing. heres the bad part... i took walter out today to work on what we learned. at first he was ok but he started to challenge me. he was jumping all over me and wrapping his paws around me trying to do a dominance hold. im glad the muzzle was on because he probably wouldve done some damage. it was very discouraging but i eventually got him to do heel, sit, down and stay 3 times in a row so we ended on a positive note. hes a handful so i think it will take him a while to stop challenging me but once he does i think things will turn out very well. sorry about the novel- i just thought id keep you guys updated! |
| Heather,
I hope you are going to continue with a Behavior Specialist as well as seeing if there's a medical reason behind his behavior (Thyroid). It seems to me that this goes beyond the typical mis-behaved sheepie antics - especially if you could be harmed when he acts up. I'm worried about you - and Walter! Until you have this under control - I would be very careful about bringing Walter into the public - where you don't have full control of his actions. God forbid he ever bit/attacked someone else - you'd have big trouble on your hands and Walter could be at risk of being deemed viscious. Please be extra careful!!!! This must all be pretty scary for you! I'm sure not what you expected to be dealing with when you got Walter as a puppy a year ago. Hang in there! Kristen |
BritPresSyd wrote: seeing if there's a medical reason behind his behavior (Thyroid). He is neutered too, right?
(check the records and see if they got both of'em.) |
| i made an appointment for the behavior specialist at our vet. there wasnt an opening until september 2nd though ... and it costs $80!! but shes apperantly very good and i really hope we get some answers from this.
and yes walter is neutered... but how would i go about checking the records to see if they got both? should i call the vet who did it? or would it say on the written records? i have a muzzle that i will be using at training classes... and other than that walter doesnt get to go out in public anymore which is just so sad for me but i hope that will change soon. |
| Hi,
I've got nothing to add to this post other than offer my support of your troubles and tribulations with Lil Walty. You are a saint for hanging in there when many would have given up. Just wanted to tell you that and your love for him is clear for all of us to see. Hang in there!!! Marianne |
| Heather,
Aggression is something that I advocate dealing with as soon as you can and I see that you have made progress in your efforts to deal with his aggression. I have another thought. I too had (have) an aggressive male and he would try to demonstrate his dominance over my husband. I thought back to a book I had read called "The Hidden Life of Dogs" by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas. She documents the relationships of her dogs and their relations with each other and the human parts of the "Pack". One thing that came out to me was that in a pack environment, the alpha male eats first and then allows the others to eat. I suggested to my husband that he be the giver of food to Tyler. It worked. Prior to this Tyler would challenge Lee and try to dominate him. After this feeding change it was amazing, slow and understated, but still amazing. I recommend the book because it can give you insight into the thought processes and how they interpret your behavior. It might help in your understanding of Walter and what motivates him. You also need to take a more dominant role with him and claim your spot as alpha female. If I understand right, you live at home with your parents, right? How does he respect them? He may be looking at you as a sibling or a contemporary but not alpha female. Which by all account you need to establish. One of the things that the alpha in a pack will do is discipline by holding the offending pup down at the neck and not allow them to get up until they are no longer fighting the dominance. I had to do this with Kiera once or twice. They are looking for guidance, you just need to give it and give it consistently. The book that I mention is not an instruction manual, but more a chronicle of how dogs interact which can give you insight in to Walters issues. I think you have a great dog and a smart dog, I also think you are amazing to be so patient with him and love him like you do. Best of luck with Walter, and let me know if you read this book and if it helps at all. Always |
| Heather,
You are doing great, I know how tough this is for you. Henry was hell the first year I had him. I thought we weren't going to make it together. He wore his muzzle more than it was off him. It is really scary to have a big dog you can't trust. (And I still can't walk him without a prong collar.) Everyone has been giving you great advice. A couple of suggestions that I found useful: 1) make sure he can see. That means keeping the long hair out of his eyes at all times. I keep Henry's hair trimmed around his eyes. My trainer told me that OES become aggressive when startled by someone approaching and the OES doesn't see him until the last second. 2) Consistency is key. The more consistent you are the faster the training goes--but as you know it won't ever be fast enough. Every time Henry was allowed some bad bahvior he and I had to start training from scratch. 3) Dogs prefer negative attention to no attention. Try to keep Walter with you as much as possible, rewarding his good behavior. He will do anything to avoid being alone even if the behavior gets him into trouble. Punishing him by leaving him alone can make him desperate which just accelerates the bad behavior. If leaving him alone terrifies him, it stops being a punishment that works. I did find it helpful to walk away from Henry and leave him completely alone when he was out of control but after 2-3 minutes Henry panicked and the punishment backfired. 4) We are all rooting for you and Walter. We know you love him and you have the good wishes and thoughts from everyone who reads and posts on this board. Take care and keep us posted. |
| were getting ready to go to the vet right now...
i just came back to this thread to write down all your suggestions. ill let you guys know how it turns out! |
| Walter is now on Clomipramine. It's an anti-anxiety medication used in dogs and humans for things like depresseion, anxiety, OCD, and in dogs its used for separation anxiety, and dominance aggression. He takes two pills a day- for now its a very small dosage as its only supposed to aid in his positive reinforcement training.
We have abandoned the pinch collar and are giving up all fear/pain based correction and punishment. I was absolutely freaked out when I called up the trainer from the police dog training place and told him about walter getting wild and aggressive. He told me tha tI need to physically assert my dominance and didnt seem too concerned. Needless to say we will not be going there anymore. The behavior specialist doesnt think I need to hire anymore trainers (thank god!). We are using a gentle leader and positive reinforcement at all times. We've always used the 'nothing in life is free' method but now its in full force and everyone who interacts with walter must use it. Walter has wanted to bite a few times but with the help of treats and praise he has not. I feel like a dumbass for saying that positive reinforcement wouldnt work with my dog, its just incredible how much better it makes me feel to use that than a prong collar or fear. I think there is room for a lot of progress using p.r. and my little guy will be much happer in the process. thanks to everyone for their suggestions and support. ive joined a mailing list for people with aggressive dogs and its got a lot of useful information. im feelin good about this! |
| Just hang in there.... with an owner like you I think you and Walter can overcome anything! |
| Hypothyroidism isn't the only organic cause of aggressive behavior. Have his ears, eyes and general health checked out.
If a dog is losing its sight or hearing it becomes very aggressive. Also if it is in any type of pain. Could be he is going through a change in life and the hormones will settle, but keeping control is a must. Just make sure you catch him doing things good and reward him. Enjoy walks of playing with him. Try to show no fear. I have a similar problem right now with a dog we adopted from the shelter. He tore up Abbi's nose something aweful last night. He is showing more aggression towards the girls lately too. Unlike Walter, he was used to being caged and is having difficulties with boundaries. Food aggression is coming to light also. Very upsetting. We thought most of this was behing us too. And then Abbi gets a nose job last night! Yuck. I am still having trouble keeping her from licking it raw. Good luck. Hope Walter grows out of it. Abbi was a bit of a problem until she turned 3. Then she became much more laid back and managable. Hang in there. |
| Oh I am sorry about Abbi! How did it happen? Is she ok? Is this new addition an OES also? Its nice to see you posting again, aginright! |
| My daughter went to the shelter for a field trip and came home with a Chesapeake Bay Retriever. He's absolutely adorable. He retrieves and retrieves and retrieves .....everything!
But Abbi did not like him getting any attention from us. So she's been trying to chase him away from us, but he never seemed to pay any attention to her. So she growled at him a few times, which he ignored. My dear husband loves this new dog. He began feeding the dogs outside because I have been feeling bad for a while. What he did not realize is when he goes to feed them and give them their treats, he's been playing with Root Beer and ignoring Abbi. Abbi has been sulking for several weeks now. Root beer will not calm down, so he's outside all the time. When we put Abbi out they would ignore each other, maybe run around, but that was about it. Since Vic has been taking over, Abbi has lost status. Root Beer actually shoved her away from the door the other day. I wanted to just let her in, but then everyone would want Root Beer in, and he is (even leashed) a holy terror inside the house. He actually scratched the dry wall just by jumping on it. He moves around heavy furniture and goes through the garbage before you can yell NO! ...not that it sdoes much good. Sit is better with this dog. He always sits. Don't ask for his paw ...he tends to slice you up with his claws, which are trimmed, but he keeps them sharp by digging...and digging. The other night he must have decided to show Abbi who was boss, because he went over to her food bowl and she growled and he bit her nose, pretty bad. It bled and bled. I had to keep her from licking it all day yesterday. She is inside and Root Beer is outside until I figure this out. Couldn't my husband be Root Beers alpha and I be Abbi's? No this is not haw it works. Two stuborn but itelligent dogs, what a mess. I just don't know how to find the time to manage this mess. My daughter loves both dogs, but Root Beer is always leaving welts on her arms. The youngest daughter plays fetch with him, but will not allow him any where near him. She doesn't like welts. Today I tried to file off the tips of his nails, make them less sharp. He's got nails of steel. And goes crazy when I try the Dremmel. Guess I will follow my own advice, and spend more time with him. I only allowed his adoption because I though Abbi could use the companionship when I go to college. Trying to learn a bit more about computers and programming. Time consuming pursuits at best. Between the birds, fish and these two dogs I just barely have time for the Scouts and home work. Wish I knew someone who wanted a wild Chesapeake Bay retriever. Guess it is bak to basics, sigh! Yeah, I can post again. It is easier with high speed. I can get on and off quicker. Yeah, right! |
| Actually aginright a friend of mine desperately wants a chessie, and has been looking for some time. He goes out hunting frequently and wants a companion that can learn to retrieve ducks and geese etc. He has a huge dog run built, but he keeps his lab in the house with him all the time, and rescues won't give him a dog unless his yard is fully fenced in. He has no children, except his 5 yr old spayed female black lab, who is not very good at retrieving, though she is a sweetie. LOL |
| Heather, I'm so glad you are feeling better about the training. You've been very patient with Walter and haven't given up. I'm sure he will progress positively and hope he will be able to come to the picnic next month. I'm very much looking forward to meeting him.
Paula O. |
| My last dog before Henry was a Chesapeake. They are tough dogs--the Bump (I named her the Bump because she was as dumb as a bump on a log) was extremely alpha her whole life, profoundly food aggressive, and ignored all other dogs unless they tried to get her retrieval toys in which case she would attack them viciously. I had several friends with Chessies and mine was the best behaved. She also needed A LOT of exercise, she was run 3 times a day by 3 different people in the house and swam/ocean retrieved every weekend to the point of total exhaustion. If she did not get enough exercise, she would not settle down at all at night. While she had problems with other dogs, the Bump loved all people, was a 60 pound lap puppy, walked beautifully on a leash, and could be trusted off leash never to run away. She had the softest mouth, I played rough tug with her and she would hold my arm in her mouth without so much as a bruise much less breaking the skin. She was a love puppy. She had terrible hips but still lived to be 14. I miss her every day.
Like OES, Chessies are not the breed for everyone. When I started looking for a dog this time I called a number of different breeders and the first question each asked was my experience with dogs. All I had to say was that my last dog was an alpha Chesapeake and every single breeder responded the same way: "Okay you know all about big dogs and dominance, you are a good candidate for my Newf/Mastiff/etc." I decided on an OES because they are soooo much easier than Chessies. LOL. Good luck with Root Beer! And give Abbi an extra love hug from Henry and me. |
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