Duped by Debbie V on puppyfind
I purchased a Husky from her in early 2005. Her boyfriend met me in Joplin MO with the puppy. He told me she would mail the reg. papers in about a week. That week turned into 1 year. After several phone calls going unanswered and a threat of a law suit she finally mailed me the papers. The papers was suppose to be AKC but came from a generic registery. I don't even think my dog came from the parents that she advised me they came from. I don't know how the State of MO can contiually allow a breeder like this to stay in business and contiue to Scam people and get away with it. This Monster needs to be STOPPED!!!! We have purchased another puppy through puppy find and found that all breeders that advertize on puppy find are NOT MONSTERS like DEBBIE V on puppyfind |
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| When I first read this I chose to ignore it, but I've been thinking about it for a couple hours and have decided to respond.
I do not believe it is appropriate for a non member of this community to use this forum as a venue to slam a NON OES breeder. This is simply not the appropriate place. I vote for removal of this post. |
| It does serve as a warning to people against certain puppy purchasing practices... but I'll anonymize it
I do find it amazing that after having that terrible experience, the poster didn't learn their lesson -- they bought ANOTHER dog over the net through puppyfind. Some days I have very little hope for humainty.  |
| I agree Ron, which is why I ignored it at first.
But, do we really want this forum to become an outlet for every disgruntled puppy purchaser? As well as the old "there is two sides to every story" line. Anyone who purchses a puppy from puppyfind is operating on a "buyer beware basis" to begin with. |
| The biggest concern, and I suppose, annoyance about all of these posts is that they are all reactionary. It's someone who got screwed and after the fact, and now they want to do something about it. Research on responsible and reputable breeding before going to puppyfind for a puppy would let you know what to look for in a good breeder-- and that 99% of the time, you won't find it on an internet marketplace for puppies.
I think many people would also benefit from better understanding that AKC papers do not make the dog a "good" dog. Anyone can turn out AKC puppies but not just anyone can turn out excellent puppies that come from excellent parents that have had all the necessary health tests, genetic testing, parents that have been shown for conformation to insure that the dog meets the standard for the breed and have come from the carefully researched bloodlines. The AKC does not check those things before someone breeds-- that's your job as a consumer to make sure that you're getting best puppy available. Does it stink that lousy breeders exist? Absolutely. But they're only in business because uneducated people continue to support them. The change needs to start with the consumer. |
Why did this "guest" wait two years to alert other potential buyers? 
A big problem with the "internet" breeders is that they are "nice" people. Recently I (unknowingly, regarding a rescue) spoke to one of the biggest puppymillers in the south. She cranks out tons of poor quality puppies but she sounded like one of the nicest people you could imagine. IMHO, that's when you really have to watch out. An ethical breeder may seem cold and harsh because they really care where their puppies end up and they don't breed often enough to lose track of them. This "guest" was able to find oes.org so why didn't their search lead them to previous complaints about this very breeder? They're not difficult to find. Do your research through Breed Clubs, not via sites like Puppyfind! |
| My hope is that through threads posted (like this one and others), people's searches will turn up information on the resource being contemplated for a purchase.
In the event that Prospective Puppy Buyer A is looking for info on some internetpuppylocatingservice.com and the google it and one of these threads turn up that they will read a horror story and get advice on what to do and where to go to find a reputable breeder. I think that's the best we can hope for, but if anyone has any better ideas I'm open to them! |
| I agree that a person ought to be able to reseach a breeder both on and off line.
The problem I see is that in a forum setting with "annonymous" posts how do you verify the validity of the complaint? Not that this post is doing this but, I can think of all kinds of reasons for a person to post a false complaint. How do you weigh the potential damage done by someone who is posting a complaint out of vengence against a the need for people to be able to learn about the breeder they are dealing with? I would hope that someone researching a breeder would use more solid data than a guest poster. My suspicion is that someone posting off breed on a board has made this same post on numerous other dog/breeder boards. To play devils advocate for a moment (in true Ron fashion) what if the person posting something like this had really no experience with this person and was simply posting to harm a person. If someone is going to make a negative comment or accusation against any breeder I give it a whole lot more credence if they are willing to "opwn their words" by identifying themselves. Not simply hop from dog forum to dog forum slamming a breeder. And of course I have no idea what the intent of this poster is, I'm simply "what ifing". |
| Yup, that's definitely an issue, and that's why I anonymized it. |
Tasker's Mom wrote: I agree that a person ought to be able to reseach a breeder both on and off line.
The problem I see is that in a forum setting with "annonymous" posts how do you verify the validity of the complaint? Not that this post is doing this but, I can think of all kinds of reasons for a person to post a false complaint. How do you weigh the potential damage done by someone who is posting a complaint out of vengence against a the need for people to be able to learn about the breeder they are dealing with? I would hope that someone researching a breeder would use more solid data than a guest poster. My suspicion is that someone posting off breed on a board has made this same post on numerous other dog/breeder boards. To play devils advocate for a moment (in true Ron fashion) what if the person posting something like this had really no experience with this person and was simply posting to harm a person. If someone is going to make a negative comment or accusation against any breeder I give it a whole lot more credence if they are willing to "opwn their words" by identifying themselves. Not simply hop from dog forum to dog forum slamming a breeder. And of course I have no idea what the intent of this poster is, I'm simply "what ifing". Welcome to the wonderful world of the internet! |
| I have been silent on this since Carl's original post, but look at the forum the last couple of days. There is this post. Then you have the additionals posts about the breeder in WI. There is free speech. And then there is slander. What is the follow-up mechanism built into this forum to find the validity of a poster and their statements? The only thing is an IP address left when guests post. I think a simple registration that includes an email, makes a poster think twice before hitting "submit". You don't have to put your real name, real location, or hell, your real email address. But it may make someone think twice about putting something false out there where anyone with a search engine could find it.
And for those who say, "it will deter others from posting", I think that's bunk. If people have a reasonable question or problem, and feel this is a great place for an answer, they will go through the 1 minute process of registering. I don't care if I don't know everything about you, or anything about you, each poster has the ability to reveal as much or as little about themselves. Ths is actually the only forum I read that does not require a registration process to post. When you keep the door open all of the time, you are giving free access to the insects. All it takes is one fly to ruin the meal. Not everyone who sees a post like this is going to do additional research on the breeder/person/company. They may make the assumption "well, I saw it on a dog forum, so it must be true". If the thought of a simple registration process is out of the questions, then I suggest moving threads like this to a general thread called "problem with my breeder/puppyfind/amish family on the side of the road in lancaster" or creating a thread that anyone can post in and stuffing these in there. Or not allowing a newbie to start their own thread until they have responding a certain # of times within other posts. My 2 cents. "Stay classy San Diego"- Ron Burgundy (or is that really who I am?) |
| Would being a registered member of this forum really help keep people honest?
Does anyone recall a poster who admitted she "embellished" a story so people on this board would accept her? I believe that person was a member (correct me if I'm wrong) and also recall that a dog was put down because of her "stories". 
It's the internet; take everything you read with a grain of salt.  |
| I could post a whole sermon on why it makes little difference to authenticate people by registration. People who are going around the net specifically to badmouth a breeder won't hesitate to do so. What I don't want to do is discourage people who aren't all that internet savvy from posting here. They post for a little bit until they feel comfortable enough to register, or to ask someone to help them through the registration process, which includes a visual confirmation that can be confusing.
People who want to post porn try all day and all night to register here. Some succeed in getting through the first 2 filters which includes the visual confirmation and getting a registration, only to be trapped and not allowed to post until an Admin looks at the registration and decides if it is a valid registration. I tell you this because the scummiest of the scummiest have no problem registering to try to post their filth here. Most other boards have shut down features to try to eliminate spam registrations. Why would I want to encourage a person who has a cheetah and wants to know about nipping to become a member of our board? They won't likely be back and then I will have to deal with their phony email address the next time I send out a newsletter (if I ever do again), or deal with all of the bounced emails from the topics they decided to "watch." Besides, I LIKE being an open place where people can ask anonymous questions. *I've* asked anonymous questions here a few years ago. I assume many members here have done so as well. We can continue to debate this (I'm happy to do so) and my position isn't set in stone, but it is pretty firm at the moment. |
| Good points. It's true that you should take everything on the internet with a grain of salt, and the percentages of posts on the internet lean more towards those who have had a negative experience and are looking to gripe, but my diatribe wasn't about keeping people honest. Its about making the morons think twice about posting something disparaging about someone.
This particular post was started by someone who was angry because they didn't receive their dog's papers. Yet Debbie V. was callled a "scammer" and a "monster". Fair? On the opposite siide of the spectrum, does anyone believe that someone would not post a question about their dogs bowel issues, or attacking the cat questions, if they had to put their emaiil address (or a fake email) in to gain a forum tag? IMO, it is too easy to come here, drop a negative bomb about someone or something, and then leave. As the popularity of OES.org increases, the more likely that posts like this one pop up on a google/yahoo search and attract others to post other anonymous claims. In due time, there will be too much traffic here to filter posts and anonymize them all. Add this to my previous 2 cents and you have a nickel. |
| I am not sure there is a "right" answer. But I do think it is an interesting discussion. |
| I agree with you Nita, why would you wait 2 years to complain? Maybe there's a backstory we don't know about? |
| After consideration, I am now neutral on this subject and wiill drop it. On this site, Ron is the boss. He writes the rules and enforces them with his selected moderators. My two cents was more about keeping this forum relatively clean from the a**h*les who come and drop unfounded posts while hiding behind a thin veil of anonymity.
I return you to your normally scheduled broadcast. Serenity Now! Serenity Now! Serenity Now! Serenity Now! |
bestdogsx4 wrote: I agree with you Nita, why would you wait 2 years to complain? Maybe there's a backstory we don't know about?
I still complain about the breeder I got Walter from. I take responsibility for not doing enough research- but I am still furious with them for taking advantage of me and other people. They lied and played dumb when I told them about my problems- and finally they are no longer breeding OES. But I guess my point is when Walter bites me or when I get upset because I can't bring him anywhere it takes me back to that place, even 4 years later... and it really frustrates me and makes me want to tell the whole world to be very very careful! |
| I dont know if this would help or not...but what if the breeder-specific discussions were moved over to the members only section, or a new section accessible only to members? That way random people couldn't google their way into them. I am kind of bothered by the fact that a few threads (the puppyfind one, for instance) are made up almost ENTIRELY by guest posters, most of them having nothing to do with OES. Another thing that disturbs me, is that occasionally a guest post will leave members growling and snapping at one another, as in the recent P.A. breeder posts!
Just my couple cents worth.....   If that! |
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