Web Site
http://www.scwtca.org/index.asp |
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Why would you need OESCA when you have OES.ORG? 
Have you been to the front page? I hope to reorganize it sometime this summer. |
| I ALWAYS come here first! But for those who are looking for information on the breed may start at the OESCA site first. And as the breed's US organization, I wish that they could build up the web site a little more. I can't imagine that the Wheaten organization has much more funds/volunteers than OESCA.
This is just me thinking out loud. |
| Until a few days ago, oes.org comes up first on Google for the terms:
"Old English Sheepdog" "Old English Sheepdogs" "Old English Sheep dog" "Old English Sheep dogs" A few days ago, "Old English Sheepdog" now returns the following sites in this order: akc.org wikipedia.org oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica.org oes.org MSN returns oes.org first for two of the four phrases. Yahoo also returns oes.org first for two of the four phrases. I need to reorganize some of the site into some static articles as you suggest, but there are differing opinions about things like training. If someone would like to make a really nice article (without plagiarizing large portions from other parts of the web) about the origins of the OES, another on the Breed Standard (Must copy the OESCA standard, but perhaps could elaborate on the reasoning behind most of the points), and so forth, I could put those up. Perhaps a few people who are interested could work together on an article? I also promise (really, I MEAN it this time) to finish Carl's photo essay on grooming... sigh I've been soooo bad about that. Other article ideas: What is involved in rescuing a sheepdog? What do rescues do? How to tell a rescue is legit? What to expect from your Rescued adult dog. What to expect from your new OES Puppy. What doggy stuff do I need to have for a puppy? |
| I just wrote a super long post for this thread and then everything went capute. D'oh!! I'll have to retype it through my tears. Why is it always the long ones? |
| Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C is your friend |
The problem with posting instructional type stuff to the OESCA website is that there are large fundamental differences within the organization. So to say, there is a gang war going on. Call it a rap thing, east coast versus west coast, if you want to. For there to be one version of anything on that site is going to take nothing short of a miracle! I don't say this in a flippant or disrespectful way but more of a style viewpoint. If you look at the OESCA site where it talks about the OES study guide, there is a discussion going on right now about many different things that are illustrated in that and it is really discussing the fundamental issues within the breed. So as not to go into long details, one of the biggest disagreements right now is on page 8 where it describes and shows how to go over a head. Many people stated that placing the hand in such a manner will not allow you to properly measure the stop or to gauge the full size of the skull. Mind you this is just one small example. They would never (I say they and I'm a member  just feel too inexperienced to feel confident in making world altering decisions) be able to agree on one set in stone version of how it is too be done.
Let's take show styling. This is probably the least explosive of all the issues. For example, the Steins http://tolkienoes.com/ present a more natural dog in the ring. No New Jersey style huge, hard teased heads and no oversculpted butts. Jere Marder www.lambluv.com presents a more finished dog in the ring. A nicely styled, perfectly round head and hard trimmed butt. Both have great and proper texture to the coats of their dogs but very different presentation. (NOTE: Whenever possible touch dog's coats to get an idea of what is right and what is wrong!!! This is everybody who goes to shows, meets other owners, whatever.) Who's to say one is right and one is wrong? Both dogs conform to the standard, both have proper break and texture and both have been breeding and showing for about as long as I've been alive. (Neither will yell about my description of their presentation but I'll get beaten for the age line!) A similar situation presents itself on here and this is just a mundane example. Carl Lindon has done his grooming essay and presented it to us and in it he says that you place the dog on the table with feet towards you and brush away from the spine towards the ends of the hair. Willowsprite has also done a grooming essay and hers states that you place the dog on the table with it's spine closest to you and you brush towards yourself. Now, that's a big difference and if one was chosen over the other, don't you think that each of the camps would have something to say about it? So if no one can agree if one of them is right and one is wrong then who gets to write the instructions that would be taken as gospel? Yes, I have an idea/answer. I say that the OESCA allow each of their mentors to write/illustrate their personal instructions of grooming and they be posted under their names in the mentor section. (So long as they don't do anything illegal or detrimental to the breed but if they do then they shouldn't be a mentor!) That way, you can see different people's presentations and decide who you like and follow their instructions. Or, you can look at everyone's instructions and decide what you deem to be appropriate and go from there. This would also help to eliminate the, "learning by geography" method and open up styles from across the country to everyone. Since I live on the east coast, I'm not going to interract with people from California on a regular basis and who's to say they don't have the most rockin' brushing style? I would never find that out because I don't have access to them. With an online library of techniques I would be able to explore that style. One more thing about this theory is that it would preserve people's style for the ages. If you go to a show, you'll notice that most of the people are not spring chickens. While we need to infuse new blood into this breed, we also need to preserve the knowledge that came before us so that it doesn't die when the people do. The same thing can be said for obedience training or conformation styles. If you are watching a sheepdog in agility and you see the handler do something totally different than you do, you could go online and get the info. We also have to remember that people are very protective of their own little tricks so not everything would EVER get put online. I know that I've been sworn to secrecy on things from my mentors. Most show people don't even mark their spray bottles with real names of what's in them just in case someone has really good eyes and can see what they're using.  God forbid. (P.S. nobody look in my tack box!  )
So this is one example of why this site (oes.org) is so great. You can put up personal opinion and people get to decide on what they think is correct and what is bunk. Just look at what happens whenever somebody asks about brushes! |
| Well said Maxmm about the state of things, especially with the grooming styles!
I do have a couple of things I need to bust on though.... Maxmm wrote: and hard trimmed butt. Did you mean to say "hand trimmed"? LOL Maxmm wrote: If you go to a show, you'll notice that most of the people are not spring chickens. This will be my blackmail quote!!!  Maxmm wrote: This would also help to eliminate the, "learning by geography" method and open up styles from across the country to everyone. Since I live on the east coast, I'm not going to interract with people from California on a regular basis
And I think you're getting a little tutelage from some Rocky Mountain High Folks.  |
| Excellent post Mandy... so many great points, and what a great way to put all of it... |
| Putting the OESCA standard up on oes.org for oes is that really a good idea, only say that as the American standard varies slightly from the rest of the world.. You have differences in parts of the standards that is not allowed in other countries. So unless there is a standard to include both forms both the American and the Pre 1987 UK Standard then really not worth making a note on oes.org.
You are a world wide forum so it should not just be the one standard advising people on what the corformation of an OES should be. Just a thought there.  |
| An excellent point.
So the requirement for the article would be to cover several different standards: US, Canada, UK, Aussie at least? |
| No not several just the two but a happy medium between both, then whoever glances at that depending on what part of the world they come from there is an explanation there on conformation to help them and it relates then to where they live in the world.
eg. With or without white markings (pre 1987 UK standard) or in reverse (included in the US standard) Here is the UK one for you to compare. Pre 1987 Kennel Club, London GENERAL APPEARANCE - A strong, compact-looking dog of great symmetry; absolutely free of legginess; profusely coated all over. All round he is a thick-set, muscular, able-bodied dog, with a most intelligent expression, free of all Poodle or Deerhound character. CHARACTERISTICS - The dog stands lower at the shoulders than the loin. When walking or trotting has a characteristic ambling or pacing movement. His bark should be loud with a peculiar "pot-casse" ring in it. TEMPERAMENT - (There is no specification for temperament.) HEAD AND SKULL - Skull capacious and rather squarely formed, giving plenty of room for brain power. The parts over the eyes should be well arched and the whole well-covered with hair. Jaw fairly long, strong, square and truncated; the stop should be defined to avoid a Deerhound face. Nose always black, large and capacious. EYES - Dark or wall eyes are to be preferred. EARS - Small and carried flat to side of head, coated moderately. MOUTH - Teeth strong and large, evenly placed and level. NECK - The neck should be fairly long, arched gracefully, and well coated with hair. FOREQUARTERS - The forelegs should be dead straight, with plenty of bone, holding the body well from the ground, without approaching legginess, well coated all round. The shoulders sloping and narrow at the points, the dog standing lower at the shoulders than at the loin. BODY - Rather short and very compact, ribs well sprung and brisket deep and capacious. The loin should be very stout and gently arched. HINDQUARTERS - The hindquarters should be round and muscular, hocks well let down and the hams densely coated with a thick, long jacket in excess of that of any other part of the body. FEET - Small, round; toes well arched, and pads thick and round. TAIL - Preferably docked. Puppies requiring docking should have the operation performed within a week from birth, preferably within four days. GAIT/MOVEMENT - Very elastic in gallop but in walking or trotting has a characteristic ambling or pacing movement. COAT - Profuse and of good hard texture; not straight, but shaggy and free from curl. The undercoat should be a waterproof pile when not removed by grooming. COLOUR - Any shade of grey, grizzle, blue or blue merle, with or without white markings; any shade of brown or sable to be considered distinctly objectionable and not to be encouraged. SIZE - 56 cm (22 ins) and upwards for dogs, slightly less for bitches. Type, symmetry and character of the greatest importance and on no account to be sacrificed to size alone. FAULTS - A long, narrow head. NOTE - Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum. |
| I'm a little confused. Are you suggesting an oes.org unified global standard? |
| No just picking up on some points in the standard that may be different elsewhere. |
| Lisa, haven't you learned by now that us Americans think the world begins and ends on our shores? You mean there are other continents and countries out there?
What about posting each standard and having members from those areas explain and comment on them and then people from other areas can explain the differences? Deb, your answers are as follows: No Go for it Woohoo Rocky Mountain People. |
| Mandy,
I think that post was well worded and executed as far as stating how there are many "opinions" out there. You filled the gap about why some things can tend to be the way they are.... p.s. I was already told about having "private eyes" associated with grooming at shows when friends found out I had Matisse and we were gonna show him. I was laughing when I read that part about the top secret tack box with the non descriptive labels... I guess people aren't kidding eh??? Many Many secrets.....ooh lah lah.... Michelina~ |
GREAT post. I'm just starting to see a lot of what you posted about, Mandy, especially as we've been considering showing on the west coast. The US has so many geographical differences in addition to personal preferences about OES type, style, etc. It's amazing how much correct variety there is throughout the country.  |
Maxmm wrote: Lisa, haven't you learned by now that us Americans think the world begins and ends on our shores? You mean there are other continents and countries out there?
:  |
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