puppy attacked my daughter
we have not had this problem before, other than we have to remind my daughter not to run, since they are herding dogs and will nip at her butt. I have 2 puppies ( siblings) they have both been in puppy pre-school since they were just 8 weeks old.they are usaully pretty laid back, playful with each other. he seems to young to know anger. and we have had him since he was 5 weeks. does any one have any advice, i don't know what to do? thanks for your input |
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| Wow... sounds horrible.
5 weeks is WAY way too young for a pup to have left it's mom and littermates, I seriously recommend contacting a behaviorist to make sure you handle the problem correctly and not add to it... Those pups never learned proper social behavior or bite inhibition and it needs to be handled carefully to get it under control asap. Hopefully more experienced people will post replies but in the meantime, please supervise at all times and if your daughter won't listen when you tell her not to run with the puppies I suggest not letting your daughter play with them. Good luck and welcome to the forum. |
| I'm sorry that you're going through this.
How old are your puppies? |
| when we first deciced to get an Oes we were only planning on getting one. i knew 5 weeks was way to early,but i felt so bad and was worried that our puppy wasn't going to get cared for properly, so i took two puppies hopeing to reduce the stress on them.I know i should have refused but i am a "sucker" i guess. I hope that i can get the situation under controll. thanks for your advice. |
| The puppies are now 3 months old |
| Dogs or Bitches? If the attacking one is a dog, then best to have him neutered as soon as it is possible to take the edge of him on the dominance side of things.
Have to agree with stacey, social skills on pups so young housed at 5 weeks does lead to behavioural problems. |
| we have one male and one female. They are both scheduled to get fixed this friday. |
| Which one attacked your daughter? Only ask that because if not the bitch then really spaying should be done after 6 months of age, as it helps in this breed on the girls not to lead to early incontinence later on. |
| It was the male. who has always been the sweetest of the two. |
| Neutering should help a bit there and you need to see a behaviouralist to get on top of this after he is neutered. The boys usually grow bigger and stronger then the girls in weight and size. And a dominant male needs to be got on top of pretty quickly or the problem only gets worse.
I am sorry to hear that your daughter got hurt  .
Best wishes with all and hopefully this problem can be got on top of soon. I am sure other members will pipe in with some suggestions to help you. Quite a few members are excellant with advice for this type of problem.  |
| thanks so much. i will indeed take your advice. He already has an appointment to get neutured. I will call a behaviorist on monday. thanks again, untill next time...... |
| I just want to reiterate what Willowsprite said about the age that you got your pups at 5 weeks and that they were not able to develop proper social skills therefore they do not know it is wrong to bite your child. I also want to say that it is great that you are willing to contact a behaviorist as well to work through getting your pups to understanding this, especially since you have two of them.
It kills me to hear that a breeder(?) let them go so young. Very concerning. |
| Getting the puppies home before 8/9 week was a BIG mistake. How many times do we go over and over this........It is well known, and even the law in some areas, that pups need to remain with thier siblings until at least 8 weeks old. Yet people continue to do this, and bring problems upon themselves and their puppies. These are life-long issues.
That being said, it was a very good idea to have 2 together. They learn from each other. If there was a chocie between leaving the pup with its mom but no siblings, or with siblings but no mom I would vote for the siblings. They can learn so much from each other, as far as socializing with other dogs......and bite inhibition.....but it does creat a whole bunch of other problems such as less bonding with humans.......This can be handled, IF you take the time and energy to look into it and do what is required. My Bosley and his siblings were left at the SPCA at 4 weeks old. They were kept together until they were 8 weeks old precisiely for this reason. When I got him I took great pains to get him out and about with people of all ages, friendly strange dogs, and we attended puppy social classes from 10 weeks to 5 months old. He is the most gentle, lovebug of a pooch.. It can not be repeated often enough....Children need to be monitored with dogs....all dogs....This is exactly what happens when they are not. A 5 year old child needs to learn NOT to run around as it gets the dogs exited...But they need to be supervised. Where were the parents? What if this was the daughter's friend who was running, not knowing any better, and got hurt? Why was this even possible? Now for the positive side. I do not see that this was a big deal. She did not get hurt, and if the dog wanted to do harm her hands and arms could have been bitten. That shows me that the dog does have good inhibition. He did control his pressure...He could have been growling etc. but they do that in play. I don't think a 3 month old puppy is acting in an agressive manner, here. Unless I am missing something, this was normal puppy behavior.We don't see it often escalate to this level because it is not allowed to happen. It is a good idea to get a behaviorist to evaluate your puppies, and the family dynamics, to get recommendations on how to best procced. The dogs are going to get bigger and older, and you need to remain on top of things. When looking for a behaviorist you need to get someone with formal education in the filed of animal sciences. Do not get some who "has been doing this for years" but has no credentials behind them. Anyone can call themselves a behaviorist and ruin a dog. Good luck with your pooches and let us know how things go. |
| Hey Nicole -- I feel like your post was a big harsh on someone who is in a bad situation and needs our help, sympathy and support. Although you stated both postiive and negative, to me and probably to someone new to this forum, the overall effect was to sound critical and dismissive.
We may all know that getting a pup before 8 weeks is a no-no, but clearly she was trying to save the pups from a bad situation. It is so hard to leave a precious puppy in a lousy place. . . I admire her for taking 2 under the circumstances. So to say "big mistake" and "how many times. . . " just sounds mean. Sure, it was a mistake and we talk about it here alot, but clearly this person did not know it and she is learning the hard way. I would save that language for more general discussions or if someone is thinking of getting a puppy too early and we have the chance to talk them out of it. Also to say that the puppy's attack was not a big deal -- how can you know that? From what she says, it sounded very scary and she is lucky the daughter was not hurt. She did not say the child and the puppy were unsupervised. She was in the room and saw it happen. She sounds like a person that, apart from the initial acquisition of the puppies, is doing everything she can to raise them right. I am really glad that she has come here for advice and is willing to take the steps necessary to properly socialize these pups. Instead of telling her everything she did wrong, let's focus on what she can do to improve the situation. Save the other stuff for more theoretical discussions -- not where someone needs our help and could be alienated by the criticism. I don't mean to offend you. I generally agree with what you have said. But I don't want to scare away someone who needs our help and I am afraid your message might do so. |
Bosley's mom wrote: A 5 year old child needs to learn NOT to run around as it gets the dogs exited... Are you kidding? |
| I agree with Val. The lady seems to be trying to do the right thing. She acknowledges that there is a problem and is trying to find a solution. Where she got the dogs and when she got the dogs is irrelavent. She came to the forum looking for help which is what I hope we can provide to her. |
| I had this problem yesterday with a five year old and Obe. He (dog) was very good but also a playful big 7 month old puppy. I watched him very close and also corrected the child when he did something that I thought he should not be doing swatting, teasing, etc. You must watch and be right there at all times and ready for anything (which it sounded like you were). The only thing negative I could say is about the breeder letting the pupppies go so young, that never should have happened.
It will take time and lots of patience but the pups can be trained to behave and learn right from wrong but start Now. |
| I definitely agree that 5 weeks was ridiculously early but the poster knows this, too. As someone who thinks with my heart way too much, I get it. Was it a great idea? No, but I get it.
Anyway, 12 weeks old is 12 weeks old no matter what age you got them. That's crazy puppy time. Jumping and nipping and being all around, well, nutty little puppies. I agree with Bosley's Mom (minus the lecture  ) that that behavior isn't too crazy. I believe the technical term for a puppy of that age is "spaz." I can picture the exact situation in my mind. Your daughter runs (like kids do), stops short. The puppy sees, "ooh, look at her running, she must want to play. She stopped so she must want me to get her." Enter flying puppy. 25 to 30 pounds at full force flying through the air is enough to knock over an adult who wasn't paying attention.
Now is the time to stop the unwanted behaviors, though. Get them both in a puppy class and start working on basic commands. A behaviorist is probably a good idea even if, for no other reason, to get you on the right track of where to start. He/She will be able to meet and better access your dogs. It's not going to be an overnight fix but it sounds like you're willing to take the steps necessary to make them good dogs to live with. Good luck! |
| Whoops!
My intent at first was to write in general terms, not specifically to this poster...I did not mean to sound harsh....but to furthur stress for people who are looking for a puppy. Many people read these posts BEFORE they get their puppy, then come here afterwards and join. And as for the supervising. Quote: my daughter had been running through the house ( just like she was told not to do).
Child was running through the house, NOT in the room with the adult. In this scenerio either the child does not run around or the dogs should be contained if this is happening. What if the child had a friend over and they were playing hide and seek? Children and dogs need supervision, or the puppies are crated. Otherwise things like this happen. We had a German Shepard when my son was younger. I recall watching him on the swing in our back yard. My dog kept trying to stop the swinging motion by jumping up on the swing, with my son in it. Before I had a chance to intervene Spencer got off the swing, came into the house with the dog and said "Mom, Shelby won't let me swing"...put the dog inside and went back out side to continue. He was 3 years and at that age he knew that his actions where causing the dog's behavior and knew what to do about it. Children need to know the rules, but thier friends will not know the rules..Therefore adults need to supervise. Getting the dog into training and the kids educated is great, but it is not enough. People must keep an eye on the situation at all times. Or the dog ends up getting killed. OES Mom of 2, I honestly think you are trying to do the right thing, and that may not have come across from me. But there is still more you need to do, to ensure everyone is safe. I hope it all works out. No more lectures from me. |
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Bosley's mom wrote: Whoops! My intent at first was to write in general terms, not specifically to this poster...I did not mean to sound harsh....but to furthur stress for people who are looking for a puppy. Many people read these posts BEFORE they get their puppy, then come here afterwards and join. Thanks Nicole! I figured that's what you were doing, but wasn't sure that this poster would know that. Bosley's mom wrote: And as for the supervising. Quote: my daughter had been running through the house ( just like she was told not to do). Child was running through the house, NOT in the room with the adult. Well, the child might have been, but the dog was in the room with the adult being supervised: OES mom of 2 wrote: i was in the same room and saw it happen and was able to pull the puppy off of her.
I don't think supervision was the issue here. Anyway, I think we all agree that this is something that can and should be worked on and we hope will be addressed successfully. I'm looking forward to hearing what the behaviorist has to say about the situation. . . |
| I think its hard work to supervise kids and puppies. Because kids and pups get into mischief very quickly. So even with the best efforts the pups may unintentionly harm the kids. When we have had our mishaphs, I usually side with the puppy. If kids were not following the puppy rules then the kids got the time out and not the puppy.
I am really glad that no one was seriously hurt and I hope that your daugher does not become afraid of the puppies. Before we got our puppy I read a great book about raising puppies and kids at the same time. I wish I could remember the name becasue it was very helpful. But the key to me was incorporating the kids into the puppies training. The book had age appropriate "games" to play with the puppies that were more training than anything. Another thing that help is our puppy obeidence class allowed me to bring the kids. This way they learned the basic commands as well. My kids are older but it help in our house. Good Luck. Becky & Miley |
| Children run, even when they're told not to. 5 year olds, 7 year olds, 9 year olds. Well raised children, raised by excellent and loving parents. Soon enough it will be outside time and of course, it would be unreasonable to expect a child to give up his right to run around being a kid just because there is a dog around. It is the dog who must be trained.
It is very normal for a 12 week old puppy to chase children. Nipping is normal and so is sometimes knocking the child down. Of course, this must be discouraged, and of course, the child must be taught how to respond if a dog is chasing them or knocks them down, for his own safety. It sounds as though OES Mom of 2 is more concerned than if this were simply a case of a puppy knocking down a child and it also sounds as though she is doing exactly the right things re: consulting a behaviorist, and taking the puppy to classes. This is exactly what I think most of us would suggest or would do if the same situation arose in our homes. What concerns me the most is that having gotten her puppies at such a very young age, so that the puppies not only didn't learn good dog social skills (having two should help, as should classes which empahsize socialization), but also that the breeder may not have exercised good judgement in choosing the parents from which to breed. I'd worry about genetic temperment problems and I'd share this with the behaviorist. And I'd supervise like a hawk. |
| I'm the G-mom of a 5 yr old and a 10 yr old and the mom of Chauncey who is 17 mos. Even with one child at a time and Chaunce it can be difficult at best to be everywhere all the time. But they're both faster than grammy. |
| Hi!
Sounds like my childhood! We had a VERY aggressive Male OES when I was growing up! He was truly my best bud! We all loved him very much, but he terrorized my younger brother. He would attack him, pull him down the hall by his socks, jump on him, knock him down, rip his shirt sleeves. One time he grabbed my friend kelly's shirt pulled ,her to the floor, knocking the patio table and chair down on top of her. We later learned that we were always defending my brother and my friends but they never stood up against Max themselves. People might think I am a little nuts but your daughter needs to establish she is more dominant member of the pack. Your puppies need to respect her. I hope this might help! I know how scary it can be! I know people on this board disagree and i understand, but I believe in rolling the dog on their side until they stop squirming then letting them up. We dont do it to be mean or with crazy force. This is how my husband and I have trained our last Old English and Newfie. We also give them a lot of positive reinforcement. We have a lot of love and mutual respect with our dogs and they have never been afraid or submissive to us. Good luck with all of your babies! Furry and otherwise! OES spunk is what makes this breed so great but can also make them a bit problematic!!! |
| Hi,
Sorry you had to experience what you did and here's my thoughts. The puppies are three months old and while they may eventually be showing signs of future dominant behavior they are still too young to be truly aggressive. In some ways it's like someone holding a 8 month old in their arms and having that child pull their hair or poke their eye. It would be unheard of for a person to hand the child back to the parent with comments such as "that baby is really aggressive".  Kinda the same thing with the pups..although in play they do sound very rough and tough..especially with the argggggg. So I imagine it was frightening when puppy knocked down your daughter and proceeded to play roughly.
Two siblings, expecially those taken away from mom at such an early age will have problems conforming to people than say a single dog whom left the mom at appropriate age and then went to live with a family. So you really have two things at the moment to deal with ...siblings and the early age which you got them. I'm not bashing you at all for this and yes too late to do anything about it now but mentioned it because you have to deal with it and have twice the work with two. In dog life the crucial age to learn social behaviors and bite inhibition is between the ages of 6 wks to 8 wks. Mom dog teaches her pups that. A pup taken too young from mom will have missed that important time frame to have learned the bite inhibition. Plus you had two pups who would then learn at an early age to interact more with each other than to people during again a crucial time frame. I'm not going to suggest trying to rehome one but that may be something you might want to consider. I always try to tell people (I used to do the Educational Pet Talks in Schools for the Humane Society on "how to prevent from being bitten by a dog"), that whatever they do now at cute puppy stage....well just remember in a few months..they will be 100 pound dogs. So what may appear to be acceptable or your ability to handle it now, may not be as they age or grow in size. Not saying that you thought it was acceptable by any means for the pup to knock down your daughter, but just to make you aware that imagine if the dog was a year old and 100 pounds in the future. Having two pups the same age is extremely difficult as even in two dog households the younger dog learns social behavior from the older dog. One on one obedience from the upright too helps a great deal but very difficult when trying to do it with two dogs. Means you would have to work one at a time with each dog. To learn bite inhibition, say NO firmly but then it's not enough to show them what you don't want them to do. You also have to show them an alternative..NO, perhaps a yip or high squeal (if this happened in earlier stage with mom around , she would immediately have put a stop to the too rough pup) and the yip teaches them the other pup was hurt. Then immediately place an acceptable thing they are allowed to bite such as a chew toy and lots of praise...good dog!!! Be consistent. If they become too rough with each other then you take the place of their canine mom and stop the rough housing by distraction with something else. Without the mom around again at their young informative years they may have become accustomed to playing too rough with each other which transpired over to your human daughter. Never allow anyone in the household to play tug a war with them. The winner is often seen as the alpha (boss) and so should be avoided, expecially with dogs that may be dominant. Of your two, one is emerging as the alpha , but you must be the boss of them. They may see your daughter as one of the pack and in some ways be challenging her. Humans should always be on top or problems will arise with dogs that think they rule the house. An obedience or behavioralist can teach you things to do. Again working with two at the same time is extremely difficult. I wish you the best of luck and we're all here to help. Please keep us posted. Marianne and the boys |
| Kids run in the house sometimes. Duh. |
Anonymous wrote: Kids run in the house sometimes. Duh.
Informative. Great post  |
| Let me expound on that a little...kids run and play in the house and out of the house and if dogs and kids are to co-exsist...seems that the dog...being the dog should learn to tolerate kids running. If the dog can not be trained to tolerate kids running....which of the 2 are you going to give up? I was simply making a "sarcastic" reply to the post that children should be taught not to run.... |
| I have 2 -18 yr olds, a 3yr old grandson and 28 yr old daughter. I have always had hearding dogs, collie, sheltie now Phoebe and Annie both hearders.
Children will run in the house my boys still do this at times, there is no way to stop it, it happens and they should be having fun once in a while. When it starts both dogs go nuts circling the group. It's usually the 3 yr old who chases their uncles who gets the bunt or nose push from Phoebe. He has learned to turn around and tell her to sit and she listens. Even when the other boys are still wrestling with each other. He just grabs her collar and say's sit. That is what I taught him to do and she listens. Maybe the puppies have to learn some commands from your daughter. Just a suggestion |
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