Long Coat Dogs and groomer question
So if someone has been in business for 20+ years, would it be offensive to ask her to use a pin brush? And too picky to say, just wash the whites, no conditioner, and oatmeal shampoo? While I hear her saying 20+ years of experience, that in my mind does not mean you're 1. good 2. have experience w/my breed 3. know what you're doing I should post a before and after pic because I'm praying Yuki doesn't get butchered at yet ...another new groomer... that she's going to tomorrow. she sounds wonderful, and people have said good things. I'm just pessimistic since I keep noticing stuff after my dog comes back that makes me think... "why the hell did i tip you this much and you can't comply with simple requests... such as CLEAN her dang ears, and shave her underside." /rant |
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| I think if I had a female, I'd keep the belly longer but, for a male, I like keeping his tummy pretty closely cropped down the middle. But it's really just closer to the penis area. They key is to keep it short but not noticeable that it's short when the dog is standing. Clyde's all weirdly growing in now thanks to his surgery so he's longer on one side than the other so I've been trying to slowly trim to even it out.
I don't think it's being too picky to ask for what you want. The last groomer that we went to had 20 years of experience and was a huge jerk that didn't use any tools other than a brush (which I saw later was not the best choice for an OES) and then complained about how much work that she had to do. It became very apparent that her 20 years of experience did not lie in breeds like OES or Komondorok. |
| Personally, I don't think having discussions with the groomer is offensive; I suppose it is all in the manner that you approach the conversation. Fred was groomed Monday and I always chat with his groomer about his salon services. For instance, I noticed that the area around his peeps was getting unkempt during our regular brushings. My groomer and I talked about it and decided that it would be best, more sanitary if he was buzzed a bit in that area. I'm sure Fred wished he was part of that discussion.
I don't think it matters how much expereince someone has, you should always feel comfortable talking with them. If you don't communicate exactly what you want; you aren't going to get what you want. If this groomer gets highly insulted because you want to talk about your dog's grooming I wouldn't take the dog back to him/her. But, like I said it is all in the way we say things. The last thing you need is Yuki coming home with a mowhawk; it would be really hard to recover from. Lol. |
| Oh, I always THINK I feel comfortable talking to my groomers. Whenever I go, I spend 20 minutes there chatting it up. I love being there, I love chatting about my dog and the ones she has there, and they ...in my experience... have always been chatty back. In that time period, I always slide in bad experiences I've had at the groomers to HINT what I hate.
So while I totally agree... here's what happens. I say (to my husband): danggit. this time i'm going in, telling them to round up paws, clean ears, don't express anal, shave belly, would like you not to strip her undercoat, and blend the areas i butchered.... then i go in: we chat it up about general stuff, and then when it comes to the dog... I start telling them what I want.. they cut in and try to finish my sentence... and then i start thinking the rest of my list is long, so i don't tell them the rest OR by what they're telling me... start assuming it's exactly what I want and they get it. I notice myself getting shy. Yuki comes back to me with mats still between her paws, and her armpit.... her ears haven't been touched, and they haven't blended her.. BUT when I do a quick feel through.. she appears to be so pretty and brushed out. Not to mention, I'm shy again.. and feel awkward checking everything out in front of them. |
| Here's my yuksters before.
this time, she has no matts, so they should have time to spend on clipping i hope. taken 30 min ago  
her butt and back legs are all butchered 
it's like i took a ruler and cut a line with scissors on her side. i wanted to let her coat to grow evenly so i cut the sides shorter. 
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Awww...Yuki, you're such a pretty girl! 
In that rear-end picture, she's looking a little embarrassed, I wonder if she realized her trimmed-down butt was going up on the internet? 
I'm looking forward to the "after" photos! |
| They always look embaressed in the butt photos. Laurel, I do think they know these pictures are going to end up on a message board. |
| I don't know what it is, and I have no idea if this is a sheepie thing because I don't hear it discussed, but she is always blaming her butt.
When I yell at her and she's frustrated but can't do anything about it, she goes at her butt (reaches back at it). Like a little kid kicking her feet except she just likes to ...I'm guessing check to see if her butt is still there? When she's hungry and I ignore her... she goes at her butt. I'm not talking about going in circles, I mean the same thing as above. When she's super excited... goes back to her butt. When a loud sound goes off... you guessed it. Anything abnormal? ...the butt is her source. |
| I think it is completely reasonable to specify exactly what you want and to discuss the methods and tools they use. If your list is really long though, maybe you should focus on a couple key items and see if they get that right. Tackle the next one on the next visit.
Not to keep touting Colorado, but my new groomer asked me specificaly about all the various areas and then keeps detailed notes of exactly what they do on each visit, so if I don't like anything, I can ask them to change it next time or go back to the way they did it a previous time. Yuki is a beautiful girl. When you move here, I am sure you will love the groomer too. |
Joahaeyo wrote: Anything abnormal? ...the butt is her source.  |
| For a new groomer I would bring in a picture, just like what you would do if you were getting a new doo yourself. Just because they can cut a long-haired dog doesn't mean they are doing it right.
In the end, not all dogs are suppose to look like giant schnauzers. |
| I brought in a pic of Suzi and Toby for a "pre-screening"
She barely glanced at it and just said she knows what a show dog looks like. *crosses fingers* Quote: n the end, not all dogs are suppose to look like giant schnauzers.
I find MOST groomers I see think all dogs should be shaped like a poodle in the face. My poor maltese always gets this round haircut whenever I take her in. |
| Hey J, go into toves photo album and print out the diagrams there that she posted awhile back. That should be real helpful in trying to get the groomer to understand the shape you are trying to achieve with Yuki. Also in the diagrams it explains where to trim (or in Norwegian Klipp)
You need to look at the butt one on those diagrams also, you exposed Yuki there Any wonder she has a thing about the butt , maybe because it is bare she is feeling the breeeeeeze |
Joahaeyo wrote: Do you guys keep the belly short or shaved?
For girls, no. For boys I'm told I will probably want to keep the area around his penis shorter, but nothing that can be seen of course. |
| lisa, GREAT IDEA!!
I don't get how to do the butt, even with the whole bullseye conversation awhile back in threads specifically about "how to trim butt." I'm afraid poop will stick, so I always make sure that area is breeze.
you should see her when I blow on it. every time she takes a step for at least a good 30 seconds, she will look back and wonder where that breeze came from. |
Joahaeyo wrote: I don't get how to do the butt, even with the whole bullseye conversation awhile back in threads specifically about "how to trim butt."
I'm afraid poop will stick, You trim just around the bulleyes in a small circle. Then you trim upbove the nub,look at the diagram there on that one, then thin out a little below the bullseye on the skirt area, no clingy one then can grab on
That way she is not exposing her "winkie" to the world  and she will not be feeling that darn breeeeze |
| Hopefully Yuki comes out how you want her.
I also get nervous expressing what I want at the groomers. What I do is right down a list of what I want...then leave that list with them. I also print out tons of pictures from the forum to emphasize what I like. When you pick her up don't tip until you have checked her out. Check her ears, paws and anything else you specified. When you go to the salon you get to check out your haircut when it is done....before you pay for it. If they haven't cleaned the ears point out to them that the ears aren't cleaned and that was on the list. If they ignore you during the consultation you need to get their attention and make them listen to what you are saying. What I would do is emphasize that you have had MANY bad experiences and are really hoping they are the groomer that you can trust to follow your instructions. Maybe massage their ego by saying that you have heard great things about them and you know that they will be able to groom Yuki the way you want her 
As I am typing this I realize it is easier said than done I am a chicken too when it comes to confrontation and I often hope that people can read my mind when I have trouble expressing it. Izzie is getting cut next monday...so hopefully I can practice what I preach  |
| I think it's much easier when you're keeping the dog long though. There's, in a way, less room for specifics. I've gone back to my regular groomer (the one where Bear busted out the cage and I was too embarrassed to go back for awhile!), and she has about 6 groomers that work in there. Even though I give the same instructions, every groomer does things a little different.
I came in the last time and was chatting with a couple of the groomers, talking about dog shows and Mandy showing me how to groom, and that she was going to Westminster and all that. Apparently, I talked a good game because they were really interested in me showing them what Mandy taught me about daily grooming so they could share it with their clients because she said they had a few OESs that came in every 2 or 3 weeks in horrible condition because the owners didn't know what they were doing. I guess my name dropping paid off because now they really seem to listen to me. |
| After reading this, and other threads about groomers, I must say I'm kind of glad Joah is going to provide me with a "test" for our local groomer!
Hey, J...if this works out well, can I get you to check out some PEOPLE hair salons for me? Your difficulty's talking to the groomer sound EXACTLY like me when I go for a haircut! |
| hehehe...
I got frostbite AGAIN this morning in my middle finger. I can't feel it AT ALL. My neighbor's husband came home for R&R from Iraq, so we spent too long outside talking! 
The groomer this morning said she couldn't just wash the whites because she said she couldn't guarantee she'd get all the shampoo out. I wanted to say, "well, I can bring over my after bath rinse. it basically requires a quick rinse and it's all out! ...tasker's mom knows what it is while I go on and on and on about chris christensen products " ...but I HATE being so picky. Let me rephrase: too shy.
I printed off the diagrams and pics of Suzi.. She can only do so much b/c Yuki's butt hair is non existent, and I understand that. I volunteered to help her groom dogs if she needed.. ravenmoonart: As far as people hair salons, I AM PICKY too! So picky that I drove 2 hrs to my favorite salon in TX when I moved to live with Mr. J, and 7 hrs to get my hair done by her when we moved to OK. No one does my hair right. ...but when I came to AK, I went to Darjons (next to jitters) and my stylist is good. Not the BEST, but VERY good. My friends ALL love them too. |
| What time do you pick her up, Jo? I will have to check back tonight to see how she turns out. |
| I as well will be taking Laika to the groomers tomorrow. We can compare photos It has been a long time. This will be her 3rd visit since I got her. Been doing it all myself. But time to certain areas taken care of I don't have clippers and too scared.
Good Luck to you!!! I know the feeling. Very excited and hopeful. |
spacegirl21 wrote: I as well will be taking Laika to the groomers tomorrow. We can compare photos
It has been a long time. This will be her 3rd visit since I got her. Been doing it all myself. But time to certain areas taken care of I don't have clippers and too scared.Good Luck to you!!! I know the feeling. Very excited and hopeful. Well I wouldn't worry so much if Laika belonged to me because she looks beautiful no matter what!!!  She has a nice thick coat
I pick Yuki up at 3 (2hrs from now). I wonder how much it'll cost. She did give a very reasonable estimate but that was before all my requests and seeing Yuki. ...and like a dummy.. I said, "well, whatever it is, I don't care....I'll still pay." What is wrong with me? I wish we could just sit there and watch. I hate having one of my animals gone, and I like watching stuff like that... but I always feel the groomers feel uncomfortable. |
| Do you really think your watching makes the groomer
uncomfortable? I think if I felt like that I wouldn't be able to take my dog there. But then I am the kind that watches when anyone comes into my home to do anything. I watch all the repair people no matter what they are doing. You'd be amazed the things you can pick up just watching. Maybe you should stay and watch, you might be able to get some really great instruction! Maybe if you saw someone actually trimming the bullseye it would be easier for you to do it yourself? I figure it is their job, if they don't have the confidence to do the grooming in front of me they shouldn't be doing my dog.  Maybe that is why I haven't taken my dogs to
any groomer since the one and only horrible chop job! Shellie |
| And . . . how did it turn out?! I'm anxious! |
| Bet Yuki looks handsome after his visit to the groomer , I just picked Dutch up after her first ever visit and she looks and smells soooo good |
| LOL, I've driven form Dallas to OKC for a haircut. And to get my dogs groomed. Okay, I cheated because my s-i-l is a groomer and she lives in OKC.
The main thing that I've learned from her is don't overwhelm the groomer with directions. The first time or two, focus on the bath, ear cleaning and general comb out. Like everyone, they like praise. Focus on the positives and plan to work on the other areas. Taking in pictures is a wonderful idea, whether people or pets. My girls have their long coat, with most of the undercoat removed (it get hot down here). I have always done their grooming, with my s-i-l giving me advice when needed. I have others trim the nails. |
| I'm someone who stares as well. I agree that people should be supervised esp. if they're working on something of yours. Actually when I talked to her about it, she said it's not always a good idea because the dogs get too excitable when they see their owners and it makes them wiggly on the table.
Then guess what happened? I walked into the groomers and the groomer had turned around (away from grooming table a few feet) ...so Yuki leaped off!!! She practically leaped forward to catch her!! I IMMEDIATELY thought of several posts here regarding dogs being choked to death. She had a limp on her back leg, but thankfully someone caught her. Yuki is fine now. Anyway, the second I came in, the groomer started telling me all she did, so I can tell she tried HER hardest and to the best of HER abilities... ((sigh)) ...but she did the one thing I begged her not to do, and that's strip her coat. You know how long I've been growing that crap in? My head hurts now. Running my hands through her... I don't feel an undercoat AT ALL. ...but yet again, I felt terrible that she worked hard, so I said I loved it. (i know!) she said she cut her legs very thin because it's the only way she could grow it evenly to eventually get that cylinder look (her words). I'm sad she cut down all of her front chest hair, but very happy with all the blending she did. I think she did a great job there and with making Yuki happy. Yuki looked really happy to be with her ...and there in general. Overall, I'm just glad she's blended better now. Miss the shag and her undercoat!! Her butt looks better. I like her. 
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| What a clean, fluffy, pretty girl!
I like the legs, Joah...she looks like a polar bear! Well...sounds like a *maybe* on this groomer...The fact that Yuki liked her and wasn't stressed out counts for a lot though! Oh boy, If our dogs are going to meet any time soon, I'd better get some serious bathing and brushing done! Bert would never forgive me, if Yuki thought he was a slob! |
I'm glad Yuki enjoyed herself, but it's really a bummer she stripped the undercoat, especially in Alaska . . .  |
| Were you trying to keep her long? What did you ask her to do? |
| Thanks ravenmoonart!!!! She actually was looking forward to seeing Yuki's hair grow longer so she can shape it. She's wanting to learn and do more.
And by polar bear, are you sure you don't mean giraffe with a gigantic head? |
ButtersStotch wrote: Were you trying to keep her long? What did you ask her to do?
Heck yeah I was trying. I've been so proud of her hair growing and managing her undercoat w/o matts or stripping. outside of blending, nails, ears, rounding head a little so she's more of a lion, rounding feet, no conditioner, just shampoo whites (which again she said she couldn't do, and i understand), and use pin brush. i told her i'd like to keep her undercoat which she's been growing out for SEVERAL months now. she said "okay!" she knew from the pre-screen visit that i want a long coat. the more i look at her, the more upset i get about the undercoat. |
| I just asked because it looks like she lost quite a bit of length, or is it just the picture? I know sometimes when they're all floofed out and brushed smooth, it's harder to tell actual length.
I'm unsure of why she couldn't just wash the whites. You didn't ask her to not get the grays wet, did you? It seems like if she got them a little damp rinsing the whites, it wouldn't be a huge deal. |
It is NOT the picture.  The few times she went to the groomers, I was upset that they forgot to do stuff but I initially loved how what they did (until I get home). When I walked in today, I didn't get that tingly. I'm soooo trying to stay positive and think... well we can work from here, but this is so last year's length. The point in her going was to look long and full when daddy came home. 
It's hard to tell she had volume "before" because she's not combed out at all, but she did... |
| You know, Yuki looks cute but what the hell happened? I think this groomer tried but didn't have a clue about what you wanted. I'm not sure what blending she's really working on but she blended the coat along her back into a toupee look.
Next time, she's only allowed to use a pin brush and no scissors above the ankles and it'll turn out much better. If you've been keeping up with the undercoat, and I believe you have, she should have absolutely been able to tell and she never should have taken it out. Your trimming job also wasn't that bad so there wasn't that much repair to do. The cutting on the legs in anticipation of it growing evenly won't give her the cylinder look; it'll make her look like she has terrier or schnauzer legs. She's thinking the wrong kind of cylinder. Yuki didn't get the Suzi do, she ended up with the Carl cut!!!
I'll send Jill up to have a talk with her! 
Oh and as for just washing the whites, it can be accomplished because I do it every single week. Just bring her to Pennsylvania, it'll end up costing you less! Keep up with what you are doing on your own and I think you'll end up happier in the long run. If you are going back or to another groomer, you may want to right a long list of dos and don'ts to remind them of what you are talking about. I took Carl to the groomers over the summer thinking it would be easier and asked them to put two ponytails in when they were done. They couldn't even get that right. They put two bows on his ears and charged me 80 bucks!! He has no hair and they charged me 80 dollars!!!!! I'm still traumatized. |
Maybe Jill can do the grooming and she can hold the bucket? 
I totally wash just the whites, but I didn't argue with her at the time because I just didn't think it was worth it. ...ughh.. |
| I think people who are professional groomers just don't see enough sheepdogs in coat to really be proficient at it. There's also no other breed that compares so they draw on what knowledge that they have in terriers and sporting dogs and make them look "cute". Blech!
If we say that standard grooming is a high school level course then OES in full coat must be graduate level work!! |
| They really don't get enough in coat to know what to do. My groomer did a nice job the last time but I could tell by the way she listened so intently to me as I explained line grooming and how I trimmed the butt, that she was really making some mental notes. She said she has about 6 other OES and Clyde is the only one that stays in coat. Even she asked me, "Do you work on him every day? I can't imagine how much work he must be!"
I think a lot of groomers are experts at the shave down though since there are also so many owners that can't take care of a long coat so that's the only experience a lot of them get! |
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ButtersStotch wrote: I think a lot of groomers are experts at the shave down though since there are also so many owners that can't take care of a long coat so that's the only experience a lot of them get!
Yep have to agree there, to much time and no money in it for them to spend time dealing with a long coat, so zip, clippers are fast and then no long coat to shampoo and dry for ages. Do it yourself from now on J you were getting there and doing a good job with Yuki at getting her coat longer & thicker |
I did stripp all Mollys undercoat out in January, this is how much i took out
But it's winter so almost all her undercoat is back now, so you just hang in there and do the grooming yourselfe The undercoat will be back in no time |
| OH my gosh it looks like a whole other animal! ahah
So Laika is at the groomers RIGHT NOW. I said just clean up the bum area. I said I want her to look round. If that makes sense oh my. Like her face nice and round. Anyways she said I deserve an award for how well kept she is! yipee!! I go get her in a couple hours. Probably won't be able to put up pictures up until work on Monday, unless a drop by work before. CROSS FINGERS!! |
| I FEEL BAD BECAUSE I KEPT OLIVE WITH A LONG COAT AND THEN HER ADULT FURR HAPPENED AND I EVENTUALLY LOST THE BATTLE AND HAD HER SHAVED. BUT I REMEMBER I TOOK HET TO THE GROOMER AND EVERY TIME SHE CAME BACK SHE STILL HAD MATTS AND HER EARS WERE NOT DONE. MY PROBLEM IS OLIVE HATES TO BE BRUSHED AND I MEAN SHE FIGHTS YOU SO I AM NOW DEBATING ON WHAT TO DO...LONG OR SHORT? IN THE SUMMER IT WILL BE SHORT. I LIVE IN SC AND IT GETS WAY TOO HOT HERE. HECK IT WAS 77 DEGREES YESTERDAY AND IT WAS FEBURARY FOR PETE SAKE |
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