Introducing Elliott
I'd like to introduce myself... I'm Suzette and my fiance, Roger, and I have just received our new baby, Elliott. I would like to thank all of you for such a wonderful forum. I discovered it several weeks ago as I was waiting to bring Elliott home. I have learned a lot reading all of the posts and feel like I know many of you already! We flew to Arizona (I just moved to Colorado from AZ) to pick up our baby. We had picked this breeder and had "reserved" Elliott before I had read this forum and learned about the perils of "backyard breeders". I had used PuppyFind to get my Bichon 3years ago and he's been such a wonderful dog... I really think I got lucky with him. Anyway, by the time I had read all of the posts about PuppyFind and disreputable breeders, my Fiance had already had his heart set on Elliott. When we went to pick him up, we were horrified at the conditions. She had two litters of pups (a week apart) and numerous grown dogs all in a small house. She seemed to be a nice lady with her heart in the right place, but totally overwhelmed. Our little boy was the smallest puppy out of the two litters. At 8 weeks, he was 10 lbs when we picked him up. He got sick the very next day (vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy). His weight is now 8.8 lbs. We took him to the vet ASAP and she has him in the hospital on fluids and antibiotics. I've cried my eyes out. His stool was loaded with Coccidia. We cannot get a reliable test for Parvo because he had a vaccine 2 weeks ago and any test would most likely show "false positive". We are determined to give this little guy every chance to survive and thrive. He's such a little sweetheart. I noticed another post from someone who probably got their baby from the same breeder and I have responded to her, as well. I will let you all know how Elliott's doing... please say a little prayer for him. |
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Welcome to the forum, Suzette!  The avatar of your little Elliott is just adorable!!
I'm so sorry you're having to face these health problems so soon with your little guy. I hope he feels better soon and you'll start enjoying his antics and love! |
| Welcome Suzette, Roger and Elliott.
Elliott looks absolutely beautiful. What a sweet face. I'm so glad you've joined the forum, just wish it were under better circumstances. Elliott is being wonderfully cared for now that he's with you, and you're giving him the best chance he's got. I fear for the rest of the puppies, and the puppy of the other poster as well. Is there any way for you to post a review of the breeder on the website (ebay-style)? Please keep us up to date when you hear anything more from the vet. |
Welcome from Minnesota. 
Your Elliott is an adorable baby. Too bad he has had such a rough start in life. I see why Roger fell in love with him - he looks so sweet. Keep us updated now that you've joined! |
| Welcome! He's adorable and I hope he feels better soon! |
| Welcome Suzette! I hope Elliott is 100% soon. He's just beautiful! |
| Welcome to the forum!
I'm sad for your little puppy's troubles, but I'm glad that you've found us! |
Welcome to the forum! 
Sorry to hear your baby is sick 
Please let us know how it goes... |
| Welcome to the forum. I wish it were under better circumstances and hope and pray that your little one gets better quickly and 100%. |
| Elliott is a doll. I will keep him in my prayers. Welcome to the forum! |
| Welcome! I hope your sweet little Elliott gets better soon. |
| I'm so sorry that this is happening to you! Getting a brand-new baby should be such a joyful time! I'll definatly keep Elliott in my thoughts and prayers!
please keep us posted!!  |
| I'm sorry your boy is sick. Please keep us posted on his progress.
Welcome to the forum. |
| hi,
Welcome to the forum 
Hope your pup feels better soon wendy and gismo |
Hi, I received your pm....Yes, Our Panda was from the same breeder.  Brian found the breeder thru a friend and did all the work in picking her and going to the house..I never saw the conditions....but I did ask Brian and he said that the house was not filthy but not up to ''our'' standards..(those who know me, know what I mean) ..
Anyway, it was only the other day, that I learned that this breeder was on puppyfind and had me all distressed...boy, was I upset...now hearing about your circumstances, I am not only upset but distraut... I am now finding out that I guess we were really, really lucky. Panda is not only beautiful and smart, but healthy...and has been from day one. Im sorry that Elliot is sick. I hope he recovers soon. The good thing is this...and you MUST look at the brighter side...that if you have ONLY to go off of what I have, Id say you are lucky.. You will end up with the most beautiful and perfect pet. Panda is a delight and full of love and energy. She was a pistol as a puppy, but at 3, she is perfect in every single way. Are Elliots parents Penelope and Winston? Those are Pandas... Again, if you would like to talk, please pm me and we can get into a more private and full discussion... Give your sweetie a kiss from me and Panda...family needs to stick together. I hope all ends well with you...my heart is just breaking. |
Welcome the the forum! Your little guy is very adorable! I'll be thinking about him, and praying for his recovery.  |
| Oh Poor Elliot... You and your fiance must be devastated
Elliot looks like a fighter in the picture....just look at those beautiful blue eyes! With his loving mommy and daddy being there for him, he is going to win this fight! Lots of hugs from Gigi and lots of slurps from Clayden |
WELCOME What a beautiful baby  I also have a 15 wk. old baby named Elliott with 2 blue eyes. |
| Both came from the same litter and the same breeder. Both are sick and in the hospital. Give me strength to get through this for it looks as if Abby will have to let go. I am also on "sick puppy" site.
Thanks for all of your support. Abby and Elliot's parents are winston and Betsy. |
All paws crossed for Abby and Elliot. What a terrible shame for a breeder to be so unconcerned  |
| Praying that your little fellow will recover |
| Crossing my fingers for Abby and Elliot. I hope they get well soon. Elliot looks beautiful from your avatar. So sad for precious puppies to be raised in horrid conditions. Please let us know as soon as you have an update. |
| Update on Elliott:
Elliott is no better, but thankfully, no worse. He's still in the hospital on fluids... still can't/won't eat and has awful diarrhea. He's anemic and low on protein but his white blood cell count is normal as is his temp. He's a fighter and he's sending love and strength to his baby sister, Abby. As for the breeder... she responded to me that because of the stress of the plane ride home, Elliott got Coccidia and she didn't want me to think that she hadn't immunized him against something she should have. She refuses to believe it could be anything else, like Parvo. Even though the vet can't run the Parvo test right now, she has not ruled it out and is treating Elliott as such. We will be taking action with this breeder... for the health and welfare of the puppies. SDolly told me that this woman just had another litter!! That's 3 litters in 2 months. Unbelievable. Thank you all for your warm words of welcome and encouragement. You are all truly loving, compassionate people  |
| Sending sheepies ((((((hugs)))))))) to elliott
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| Welcome. I am so sorry to hear about Elliot being sick. I pray he gets better. |
| Hi,
Welcome to the forum and I'm so sorry you are having to go through this. I'm praying little Elliot will make a full recovery and will keep him and you both in my thoughts. Hugs to you Marianne |
| Hoping elliot is gaining strength and feeling better soon...
Tell this breeder that the incubation period for coccidia is thriteen days. Which means if the puppy is home with you less than that time, he came to you already suffering the disease. It takes 13 days for symptoms to surface. It is highly contagious and is caught from the feces of the Mother. Entire kennels can be infected. And it can be quite serious in a small puppy. Your pup is at the vet being treated and that is where he should be. Tell the "breeder to take a hike with the lame excuse of it was caused by stress. Yes, stress can bring on some illnesses, BUT again, the incubation period is 13 days. The pup left the "breeders" home already with it. It had nothing to do with the flight or anything but this breeders neglect. And if she didn't clean up that kennel, and I mean disinfect it completely, this new litter will have it and will be passing it around to any other pups and dogs. She really should be reported to the health authorities immediately.
Sorry if I come across so strong but this is so disturbing to read about these poor innocent pups.... Wishing Elliot a full recovery. My thoughts and prayers are with you. |
| Sending you hugs for Elliott and you . This should be a happy time. Not stressful and worryisome. I hope Elliotts is well real soon. He is such a cutie with those big blue eyes. This breeder needs shut down so no puppies or people suffer anymore |
| I'm so sorry for Elliot and you. My thoughts are with you. |
| Good luck with your new pup. I hope he gets better soon.
Even though the breeder sounds questionable, coccidia is fairly common, and I don't think a de-wormer gets rid of it. A regular disinfectant doesn't kill it either. The symptoms can be compounded by stress (ie., plane ride) but it sounds as though there were symptoms showing at the breeding facility? It is very contagious and hopefully the breeder is taking huge precautions now to control this or other sick puppies will be going out. Why are you thinking Parvo. Is your vet concerned about that? |
| Deb Elliot has been diagnosed with Parvo. Abby is from the same litter and breeder and sadly Abby lost her fight yesterday.
Elliot is still fighting Parvo.
The breeder has 2 other litters as well and denies any parvo & sent these sick babies to there new homes.  |
| Ugh, just catching up on the other thread about Abby. So heart breaking! The breeder definitely needs to be shut down. Parvo seems to be going around a lot lately too. In the last several months there have been quite a few Parvo puppies showing up at my vet's office. |
| verveUp, maybe so many parvo puppies showing up at Vet's office because of all these irresponsible "wannabe" breeders appearing lately. here are alot of members on this forum...strength in numbers...what can we do to help this situation?
Isn't there any legislation pending or anything to mandate "breeders" to get a license, etc? There should be...This whole story about Elliot and Abbey has me sick to my stomach...If I lived in Arizona, I would be calling Channel 7 "Shame on You" and get this coverage on tv...Maybe the local paper... Did Elliot and Abbey come home with health certificates from their Vet? If so, he should be condemend as well and reported...If he sent these pups home after an examination and they left with parvo, he could be in trouble legally I think...What the heck is a health certificate worth if the Vet is not liable? More importantly, any word on how poor Elliot is doing? |
| Gook luck to you little guy! I hope you beat this! |
Ashley wrote: verveUp, maybe so many parvo puppies showing up at Vet's office because of all these irresponsible "wannabe" breeders appearing lately. here are alot of members on this forum...strength in numbers...what can we do to help this situation?
Isn't there any legislation pending or anything to mandate "breeders" to get a license, etc? There should be...This whole story about Elliot and Abbey has me sick to my stomach...If I lived in Arizona, I would be calling Channel 7 "Shame on You" and get this coverage on tv...Maybe the local paper... Did Elliot and Abbey come home with health certificates from their Vet? If so, he should be condemend as well and reported...If he sent these pups home after an examination and they left with parvo, he could be in trouble legally I think...What the heck is a health certificate worth if the Vet is not liable? More importantly, any word on how poor Elliot is doing? This probably isn't the place to talk about it, but I say hit them where it hurts... right in their place of business. The websites, newspapers the publications that they advertise in. Let everybody know what's going on on They might make a few $'s from us poor unsuspecting average joes (like myself), but we have the power to cost them more than what they fleece us for and prevent them from causing suffering to any more poor pups. |
Oh, I agree about "hitting them where it hurts"...And if this isn't the place to discuss what we can do to help improve this situation, where else would be? Maybe we can start a new subject header under the forum index for "our cause"? We don't have to name breeders names on the posts, unless Ron gives the okay  but we can discuss what we can do.
I've already contacted a number of people in the OES Club to pass the word around about this particular breeder, but I don't think that is enough. She needs to be publically exposed...Did anyone in Arizona contact the local ASPCA...or even the rescue club maybe? They have resources. Anything on Elliot? |
| Good Morning Everyone:
Elliott continues to fight the Parvo and Coccidia. We have transferred him to a top-notch specialty vet hospital (VRCC in Englewood, Colorado) where he is getting round the clock care. They will be giving him a plasma transfusion today which will hopefully help with the protein in his blood and maybe the white blood cell count. He is still vomiting and still has diarrhea, but the vet said that was to be expected. The Parvo virus needs to run its course and it could be as long as 10 days. This is his 5th day in the hospital. Our faith remains strong and he's not giving up and neither are we! Everyone... all the vets, techs have fallen in love with the little guy. He just looks at you with those big blue eyes and your heart melts. They dont get to see too many OES puppies out here for some reason, so this is a real treat for them... despite the very sad circumstances. I cannot thank you all enough for your support and concern for Elliott and his sister, Abby, rest her precious little soul. It is comforting to know that so many care. The thoughts and prayers that you all have been sending are making a difference. I truly believe in the power of energy and Elliott is feeling it. I know he is, and he's going to make it--I can just feel it
As for the breeder... I have contacted the Maricopa County Sheriff Animal Abuse Division and they are going to investigate. I have posted a "breeder review" on the puppyfind website. I have contacted the local TV (channel 15) investigative reporters. I am so concerned for the remaining puppies and am trying to think of what else can be done. There is strength in numbers and if we continue to network and get the word out, it can make a big difference! As for the vet check... Elliott was checked the day we picked him up. Coccidia was diagnosed (and treated), but Elliott was not exhibiting Parvo symptoms as of yet. A parvo test at that time would not have been reliable since he had had his 5-in-1 vaccine less than 2 weeks prior. His symptoms began the day after we got him home. First vomiting, lethargy and then horrible diarrhea. When his WBC dropped from 10,000 to 2,200 2 days later, that's when we knew for certain it was Parvo. The vet (here) explained that the normal incubation period is from 7-14 days, so there is no question that he contracted this at the breeder's. The fact that he has Coccidia complicates things. The breeder gave Parvo vaccines at 4 weeks. The vet said this was most likely ineffective because the mother passed antibodies to the puppies in her milk and those antibodies would counteract the vaccine. The next vaccine was the 5-in-one at 6 weeks. Studies have shown that only 25% of puppies vaccinated at 6 weeks are able to respond to the vaccine. My thoughts and prayers are with SDolly during this very difficult time as she mourns the loss of Abby. Thank you all so very much. |
| Yucky situation I'm so sorry you have to go through all this. It sounds like you are doing a wonderful thing for your baby. |
| First of all, I am truly sorry for all that your poor puppy is going through.
I am also going to display my ignorance: if early vaccinations are ineffective against parvo, what should the breeder have done to prevent this infection? I honestly do not know. I understand the window while they still have their mother's immunity would render vaccination ineffective. So how do you know when to vaccinate? I assumed the breeder vaccinated on the vet recommended schedule. |
| You may post any factual information you have. Remember however that posting on a forum like this is not private nor is it anonymous and that people can figure out who you are, like your breeder.
The moderation team will attempt to keep things civil. Personal attacks and/or name calling won't be tolerated. Please put controversial threads into the Food For Thought section. |
| tgir, you bring up a good point and I had the same thought. She didn't quite vaccinate according to the Vet schedule, but she DID vaccinate and I do believe she had the right intention in that respect.
My concern with this breeder is not that she didn't vaccinate... it's the conditions that the pups are in and her reaction once she found out that there were at least two Parvo puppies from her litter. She didn't take responsibility and appeared to be in denial. When I questioned her about Abby (Elliott's sister) she said: "I didn't mention Abby to you, because I didn't want to further upset you." As a responsible breeder, I would think she would have contacted me immediately the minute she found out about Abby. Fortunately, we were already on top of it, but what if were weren't? What if we just thought Elliott had tummy upset from the move and hadn't sought immediate medical attention? We would have lost valuable time in the fight to save his life. In my opinion, it appears she is more concerned about her business than the health and welfare of the puppies. From the research that I've done, vaccination is only part of the prevention of Parvo. There is a "window of susceptibility" between mother's antibodies and vaccine effectiveness that is mitigated by vigilent care and clean, healthy conditions. I believe that this is the breeder's responsibility. In the unfortunate event that Parvo is detected, I also believe the breeder is responsible for notifying puppy parents and ensuring the health and safety of the remaining puppies. |
| Suzette -- I've been following this thread closely and I really appreciate the steps you are taking to help others affected by this breeder and to educate us about parvo in general. You have tremendous strength and integrity and I am impressed by your grit. Sweet Elliott could not have found himself in better hands.
My heart goes out to baby Elliott facing such a hard fight at a time when puppies are just supposed to be enjoying cuddles and loving and a sleepy full belly. Knowing what we do, I can't help but see worry in his beautiful blue eye. I have heard great things about the VRCC and I am so glad to hear that they are providing intense, devoted care to your precious pup. Very best wishes for you, Elliott and all the other pups too. |
| It is my understanding that the parvo virus can live for 2 years in the ground. A breeder with parvo in the kennel should not be breeding for a long time after that, and make certain that everything is done to eliminate it from the residence.
That is why breeders take immense steps to prevent parvo in the first place, and often do not allow people in or near ae home with puppies that are very young. It can come in on the bottom of shoes, and dog people who hang out at dog shows and obedience trails take extra precautions to avoid bringing anything "home" with them. In rescue when a parvo-ill dog is transported the crates used are disinfected with bleach and any blankets/towels are thrown out or burned. It is awful to expereince. |
| It is very troublesome that the breeder seems unwilling to assume any responsibility. I have no plans to ever breed, but I would think that should I learn that any of my puppies (or older dogs) were ill with anything that might be contagious, I'd immediately inform everyone who had one of my pups to be alert to signs of illness.
I am sure that part of it is simple emotional denial that anything she failed to do or did incorrectly could result in a puppy's death; I strongly suspect the other has to do with financial liability. Too sad. I hope that it is truly a case of an extremely unexpected event that she didn't know how to prevent (or her steps were inadequate in preventing) and that this is a wake up call and she does not breed again, at least for years. Hoping that your puppy recovers. |
| Parvo is so contagious too that I'm sure that all of the other puppies must have it especially if the breeder is not taking any measures to quarantine. Are they still for sale on PuppyFind???? If so, it's ridiculous that PuppyFind doesn't do anything to try to prevent these puppies from being sold. Can you imagine if one of these puppy carriers ended up in a puppy kindergarten class? This is really BAD! |
| I hope Elliott gets well soon and this breeder wakes up and smells the coffee. There is no excuse for her to continue breeding with the conditions and health problems that exist. Please keep us updated on Elliott. When you see him tell him Obe is praying for his recovery so they can meet and play one day. |
| UPDATE ON ELLIOTT:
Elliott continues to improve, thank God. He is still in the hospital in intensive care… he’s had several plasma transfusions that have helped. His white blood count skyrocketed (finally) which means his little immune system has final kicked in and is fighting the virus. He is starting to act like a puppy … chewed through his IV tube, which really upset the Vet Tech but the rest of us (including the Vet) were cheering. He’s making a lot of racket… so much so that they have to turn the baby monitor down so they can hear themselves think. He finally ate something last night (first real food in 7 days!) and, most importantly, did not vomit it up. He still has the bloody diarrhea, but they don’t seem to be as concerned about that as opposed to the vomiting. His proteins are holding steady as is his blood glucose. These are all good signs. He is being transferred from Emergency Services to Internal Medicine today and we’re hopeful that he can come home in the next few days. They told us at the onset that it most likely would be 10 days, and they were right. They are stopping short of saying that he’s “out of the woods” but both Roger and I just know that he’s going to make it. Your continued concern and support has been a great source of comfort. THANK YOU ALL! |
| FANTASTIC!!!! Hooray Elliott -- what a fighter! Hooray Suzette and Roger for your loving commitment to this sweet puppy! This is really good news and I am so encouraged. Keep fighting!! |
Yay Elliott! 
That just made my morning to hear that he's improving and acting like a puppy! Chewing through his IV tube.... that's fantastic!! Bless you, bless you, bless you for not giving up on him. Somehow, I think he knows what a lucky pup he is that you and Roger couldn't leave him behind that day. |
| Way to go Elliott! That's great news. I hope he gets to come home soon. |
| Thankyou Valerie & Steph... Your kindness brings tears of joy:) |
| That is wonderful news. I had to go get a tissue!
I looked down at my basset Simon on my left, resting his chin on my leg and staring up at me (OK, he's short, that's all he can reach!), then at Maggie our coonhound curled up in the dog bed under the computer, who looked up at me with her big brown eyes. Lastly to my happy and healthy Chewie next to Simon, happily chewing on his rubber kong toy. I hope you have the chance to have wonderful moments with your baby Elliot at home like this. To me , times like this are what having a dog as a family member are about. Keep up the good job, Elliott! |
| I cannot hold back the tears as I read how Elliot has improved. He is truly a "miracle puppy". I think Abby must have been much weaker to begin with because she passed so quickly, she just didn't have a chance. I am so glad we found each other and have had all the wonderful support of this forum. Thank you all. Looking forward to more happy updates, Suzette.
dolly |
| Sorry, Ive been away all weekend...Im so HAPPY to hear that Elliot is doing well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I cant wait for him to come home to your loving home!! Beware, if he is ANYthing like his big sister, he will LOVE sprinkler heads and BBQ knobs...... Give him a kiss from us! |
| Fantastic news....I was thinking about him over the weekend. Big sheepy hugs all round |
 Hooray for Elliott |
| I'm so happy to hear the good news. I do hope you you will be able to enjoy Elliott's puppyness soon..you're in for some fun |
| What great news! Been thinking a lot of Elliott over the weekend.
I hope he's able to come home with you very soon. |
| What wonderful news!! This is so encouraging! Your committment to seeing him through this is so admirable. Bless you!! He couldn't have ended up with better parents. |
 YIPPEE!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheer: 
Oh, I'm SO happy it looks like Elliott will pull through this!!  Can't wait to see that little blue-eyed beauty grow up and get into everything, like a typical sheepie!!
When he's home and settled - PICTURES PLEASE!! And bless you for doing what needed to be done to pull this baby boy through this awful ordeal. |
| What a little fighter he is! That is absolutely fantastic news. YEAH! |
| Woohoo Elliot!!!
I'm so glad he is pulling through, that's awesome news! |
 That is such great news for Elliott. I check the computer everday for updates on him. This is great news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Keep getting better little sheepie man! |
| WOOOOO HOOOOO
This is FANTASTIC news, i can't hold back my tears 
wendy and gimso |
| I'm so excited for you. I can just see the little imp chewing through his IV - Good for him! I hope he continues to improve and beats this awful illness!!!! |
| YEAH ELLIOT!!!
This is such a great piece of news to wake up to!!!! Thank you so much for updating, Suzette! You've made my day! What a little rascal he is, he's going to be a handful for you...and you are going to love every aggravating minute! |
| This is an email that I received from Julie, the breeder of Panda, Elliot and Abby.
I think her side of the story needs to be heard. Lets all remember to be fair, honest and open. Name calling and pointing fingers arent what we are about. I am devastated by Abby's death and Elliot's sickness but to be fair, Brian and I did NOT have this experience. Panda was healthy and happy. Julies home was not disgracefully dirty, just not Camp Calli clean...( I dont know too many that are  )
I would truely like to give Julie the benefit of the doubt and hear her side as I think we all should...... Hi Darcy, I have a few questions and I'm hoping perhaps you can be of some help. As you know, I have been quite a topic recently on the oes forum. I had never visited there until today. I read all the questions, answers and comments concerning my two little puppies, Abby and Elliott. My question is-- is there any way for me to respond to all this? I understand all the heartfelt sympathy that has gone out to sdolly and suzettemarie. It's very nice that there is this forum where OES lovers can go for support and friendship. But I also am an OES lover, and not one person said hm.... could there be two sides to this story? Could any of this be exaggerated or fueled by emotion? Well, here is MY side of all this. I hope you will be kind enough to read this and then advise me as to how I can address this, as I feel that many people who don't know me (don't want to know me), have been criticizing me and have no idea just how heartbroken I am, or how diligently I work to have nothing but healthy, beautiful puppies ever leave my home. I did sell Abby to Bill and Sherri, and Elliott to Roger and Suzette. Both puppies left my home within 12 hrs. of one another. Both were showing no signs of any problems, or there is absolutely NO way they ever would have left here. Abby stayed here in the area, and Elliott went back to Denver, but not before a trip the next day to Suzette's vet in Fountain Hills for his health certificate for the flight. (They only recently moved to Colo., so she wanted him to see her vet here). He was obviously not acting sick at that point either, or I'm sure he wouldn't have been given the health certificate. I am not debating the fact that these puppies took ill, or that if it is parvo that they would have been incubating the virus prior to leaving here. But I would NEVER knowingly or intentionally let a puppy go to a new home if I had the slightest idea that it was less than perfect. I would never want to put the new owners through a nightmare of this kind, and would certainly have to be insane to purposely bring all this down on myself. I have never dealt with parvo, I have no idea how these pups got it. My adults are vaccinated on schedule and my puppies are also wormed, vaccinated and see my vet on the recommended schedule. I am not "in denial" that these puppies are sick, or that Abby didn't survive. I am just stunned that they could have gotten this terrible illness when I have always done everything that I need to do to insure healthy puppies, and this has never happened before. I have been in daily contact with Abby's new parents, and they have been very nice. I have refunded their purchase price, and as of today have agreed to give them another female puppy in the future to help compensate them for their vet bills. Elliott's new owner has not been in contact with me, except to print lies on the forum and puppyfind and fuel a lot of other OES owners to band together against me, when they know nothing about me, haven't seen my dogs, or have any idea just how awful this has been for me. I deliver all my puppies myself, in my bedroom, where they and their mother stays, a couple of feet from my bed, where I can be in constant watch over their well-being. I raise each one for the first couple months of their lives and I do EVERYTHING I can possibly do to keep them healthy and happy. (You've attested to how wonderful my babies are, as you have your beautiful Panda). Nothing has changed. I did everything the same for this litter that I did for Panda's and every other litter I've ever had. I understand that Suzette is devastated and emotions are running high, and I truly feel so terrible for her. But I have called and left messages and emailed her, asking her to talk to me, instead of ABOUT me. But she won't answer. I have had to worry myself sick about Elliott's condition and rely on what I hear on the internet as to his condition. She has spread terrible lies about the condition of my home, my dogs and my other puppies. I do have puppies left, that are in perfect health. That is just making this whole thing that much more unbelievable. I went directly to my vet as soon as I learned of Abby and Elliott's illness. My vet could find nothing wrong with these others who grew up right here in the exact same circumstances, received the same shots and everything else. So now I'm playing a waiting game. My vet did recommend they have their third shot a little sooner than they were supposed to, and so they've had that and I am keeping my fingers crossed that they all remain healthy. I am certainly NOT going to even consider letting any of them leave here until the incubation period has come and gone and they are again checked out by my vet and found to be in perfect health. So the idea that anyone would think that I'm selling unhealthy puppies is very upsetting to me. I had no clue there was anything wrong with Abby or Elliott, and I'm doing everything in my power to insure that my other puppies remain healthy. Another thing I noticed mentioned on the forum was in reference to my website. At the top of my homepage it says Pointe Aux Barques Light, Port Hope, Mich. This is where I grew up. I had a painting done of the lighthouse that is down the road from my childhood home on Lake Huron, with my dogs sitting in front of it. I loved this painting so much, I put it on my website. But in trying to add some Christmas lights to my homepage back a couple months ago, I accidentally deleted the photo. I'm not all that great with computers. I was afraid to mess with it further for fear of messing it up worse. I have since gotten another picture of the painting and will soon hopefully end the confusion as to my whereabouts. Since all my contact info. appears on my website in two different places, it never occurred to me that anyone would think I was trying to misrepresent anything about my location. I only have the painting on there because I think it's beautiful and I miss that lighthouse every day. I would love to respond to anyone who cares to know my side of this tragedy. If you could please tell me if there is a way to do this, I would appreciate it so much. I'm not a bad breeder, I don't have filthy dogs, or unhealthy puppies and it's very frustrating to sit and read all these people talking about me. It's an extremely helpless feeling. I want only the best for all my puppies. I pray for Elliott's full recovery and it broke my heart that Abby didn't survive. But does it occur to anyone that if I'm to find good homes for my other puppies, I need to NOT be painted as a horrible, uncaring puppymill? I do this because I love these dogs. They are my life. I would never do anything dishonest or wrong where my dogs are concerned. And, one more thing. The references on puppyfind. I have deleted these, because I'm not trying to sell the pups I have, as I've explained. The things people have put there are just not true. I didn't knowingly sell unhealthy puppies, I'm not trying to cheat anyone, I'm absolutely not in this for the money! (If they only knew how much it costs to feed, groom, and care for my dogs and raise a litter a puppies. It's certainly not a get-rich scheme.) Would anyone leave these lies on there if they had a choice? I have contacted a number of people who have gotten my puppies and ask for them to put on truthful, positive references. So there are several and there will be more to come. I certainly did NOT put these on myself. There is no way for me to do this. If there were, I'd be putting my side up on Puppyfind, for sure! So, I hope you understand both sides of this and will be willing to help me clear my name with your OES friends. Please tell me if there is someone I can contact who "runs" this forum, or however it works. Thanks so much for "listening". I look forward to hearing from you, Julie DeleteReplyForwardSpamMove... |
| Well, I took the time to read her side of the story...Even if it were all true, now she knows these two pups definately had parvo and were incubating the disease while in her home - which means the virus is in her home. How it got there doesn't matter...it is there and her new litter is exposed to it...Even her Vet is not saying the parvo is cleared from her home and instead is vacinating early...which doesn't make sense. Vaccinations are on a schedule for a reason...doing so too early is not a wise thing...
Julie claims she is not in it for the money...then why exactly is she in it? For the love of the breed?  Offerring another puppy to Dolly is ridiculous...why would Dolly or anyone want another puppy from her. The right thing to do would be to offer to pay the medical bills...but, oh, I forgot, she's not in it for the money.... |
| Ashley, she also has a husband who is sick and needs surgery and is out of work....we are still jumping to conclusions here.
Lets wait and hope she will reply. I think whatever arraingements that she and sdolly made are between them. If both parties are happy, who are we to judge? |
| I never thought that Julie knowingly sold us puppies that were ill, but they were. This is a first for her and all of us, she was as bafffled as we were devastated. I do want to get another puppy and I am willing to give hers another chance. I am going to work closely with my vet on this and make sure they are healthy. I, too, am concerned about the Parvo and like I said, am going to pull up my lawn and put new sod down. I'll bet Julie is bleaching like crazy as we speak. One more thing, we still have Abby's necropsy report to look at and see without a doubt what all played a role in her death.
dolly |
| I think Julie did the right thing by writing to Darcy to find out how she should proceed. She didn't immediately jump on the forum and start arguing with everyone...as we have seen others do in the past.
It sounds to me like she was taken aback and shocked by what happened. She has taken steps to make sure the other puppies are okay. We can't argue with what her vet suggested for treatment, whether we agree with him/her or not. Assuming she has done everything she proclaimed...she is attempting to make ammends with the two puppy owners. If none of the other puppies are showing signs of parvo it seems easy to see why she didn't believe that could be the problem at the beginning. A terrible thing has happened, but that doesn't mean she is cruel to dogs and doesn't care. I would also like to know if a parvo outbreak or something just as terrible has never happened at a well known and respected breeders? This seems like one of those things that can happen despite the best care and best intentions...maybe I am wrong...who knows. |
| It is good to hear Julie's side of the story and I am truly glad that she is making an effort now to ensure the health of these pups.
The thing that I guess bugs me the most is if there were 2 puppies in the litter that were that gravely sick, why wouldn't she just automatically pull the PuppyFind page vs waiting for a few days for backlash? Why automatically just be defensive by having people post positive reviews? Wouldn't it seem a little too coincidental that both puppies were suffering the same ailment for the other puppies to be excluded? I am truly sorry for all parties involved. I hope that everyone will learn from this and do everything they can to make sure puppies are as healthy as possible. |
Darcy wrote: And, one more thing. The references on puppyfind. I have deleted these, because I'm not trying to sell the pups I have, as I've explained. The things people have put there are just not true. .
Its a minor point, really, but the review I posted (which she promptly deleted), was very short, only saying "buyers should be aware that two pups from this breeder went to their new homes gravely ill, and one has died"...nothing that even she could consider "not true". Also, why not take the remaining pups OFF of puppy-find until their good health was certain? I do however, also want to say that listening her side is important, thank you, Darcy, for posting this! |
| Is it also possible that she kept her puppyfind page up, but didn't intend on letting the puppies go until she was sure they were not sick? I don't know what is involved in removing a page, but she may have been busy taking care of the pups she still has plus her normal job/household duties...etc. |
| Darcy, I'm sorry if I seem too tough on Julie. And I'm sorry her husband is sick and needs surgery. But that has nothing to do with selling sick puppies. Again, she claims she is not in it for the money.
I'm baffled as to what she is doing to clean up and protect the new pups? I read her response and don't see a single bit about what she is doing except getting them vaccinated earlier than she should... And yes, whatever her and Dolly and Suzette work out is really none of my or anyone else's business. But as an animal lover and as a moral human being, I can't sit back and watch poor innocent puppies come into the world this way without trying to help and keep this type of situation from happening again...With all due respect, if Julie was not in it for the money, why is she doing it? |
Amanda P wrote: Is it also possible that she kept her puppyfind page up, but didn't intend on letting the puppies go until she was sure they were not sick? I don't know what is involved in removing a page, but she may have been busy taking care of the pups she still has plus her normal job/household duties...etc.
Could be, but in the whole scheme of things it doesn't take long to pull down posts, and I would think this would have been a priority. |
VerveUp wrote: Amanda P wrote: Is it also possible that she kept her puppyfind page up, but didn't intend on letting the puppies go until she was sure they were not sick? I don't know what is involved in removing a page, but she may have been busy taking care of the pups she still has plus her normal job/household duties...etc. Could be, but in the whole scheme of things it doesn't take long to pull down posts, and I would think this would have been a priority. I get the feeling that she may not know how. She may have had someone else do it in the first place. Again, I'm not saying that excuses anything, but it is a possibility. I agree, she does sound devastated and I'm glad to hear that she's trying to make things right-- or as right as they can be. It seems that Dolly has come to an amicable agreement with the breeder. Was there no such agreement made or an attempt to reconcile the situation with Elliott's owners? |
I am so happy to hear Elliott is doing soooooo much better. I cant wait to see pictures of the little guy!!! And if I could I would chew those darn IV's too !!!  Keep up the healing Elliott
PS I agree with the person that said PICS PLEASE as soon as you can |
| Hope Julie the breeder reads this...I don't see anything in her letter claiming she did any of this...
Here's a link with info about Parvovirus. http://www.marvistavet.com/html/canine_parvovirus.html "Properly cleaned" means disinfecting with the proper ratio of bleach to water. A licensed vet must be consulted to verify the ratio posted is accurate. Parvovirus is an extremely hardy virus that can live in the soil for a long time... this article mentions 5 to 7 months. Freezing does not kill it. Another article mentions the vet would hesitate to bring in a pup less than 20 weeks old that's been vaccinated at 16 and 20 weeks for parvo. The family had disinfected the lawn with a 50/50 solution of bleach and water and did it three times but he still advised waiting. (Very bottom of the page at this address http://www.vetinfo.com/dparvo.html ) Just a caution to Dolly about accepting another puppy from this breeder...Take your money back in full and go elsewhere. |
| great news to elliott is is doing well. keep on fighting you will prevail. pictures would be great. obe says get well soon too, as he was neutered today.
i would also like to thank darcy for posting the email sent to her by the breeder. i am glad to hear her side of the story. i hope she is doing everything possible to clear up this mess as she said. she may have left out bleaching part... who knows. i do think she deserves a second chance providing she gets the disease cleaned up and does not sell any puppies until she is certain that she has gotten rid of it. if the breeder reads this, best of luck to your husband in his surgery. roger and suzette keep us posted as you have on elliott, he could not ask for better parents. |
| I want to thank Darcey for being my friend and trying to see my side of all this. I am soooo happy to hear Elliott is improving. I'm glad I can go to this site and get updates on his recovery. It means a lot to me.
I want to answer a few of the questions I've seen ask. Why did I leave my listings on Puppyfind? It's very quick and easy to delete listings, but is quite time consuming to put them on. I saw no harm in leaving them on so if someone was interested, I could contact them later when my vet has rechecked them and confirmed their good health. I'm certainly not selling anyone now, or for however long it takes to make sure no one is sick. This was not a new litter. If you noticed the ages and birthdates, these are the same listings I've had on for 6 or 8 weeks. Someone mentioned that if I'm not just trying to make money, why am I worried about selling these pups. I don't want them to grow up here, without names and a permanent home. I want them to go to their forever families. About the reviews... I was in shock to hear that Abby and Elliott had become sick and the very idea that anyone would think that I knowingly let a sick puppy leave my home just amazed me. When I began seeing all these reviews, from people I don't know and who don't know me, it didn't seem right that they were all jumping to the same conclusion--that I was selling sick pups, and that I was STILL trying to sell more sick pups. I didn't know about this forum at the time and I felt my only means of defending myself was to get the bad reviews off and get some on there from people who had bought puppies from me. I didn't think it very fair that all these reviews were coming from people who have never even seen one of my puppies. I understand now that they were put on as a way of showing support for Abby and Elliott, but at the time I didn't know who or where they were all coming from. As to why I do this... am I just in it for the money? As any of you who have raised a litter surely know, by the time you factor in what it takes to care for, feed, groom and spoil the parents, plus vet care for Mom and babies, plus advertising, etc., this is NOT a big money maker. But when I get a call from someone who's lost their precious sheepdog and they say they've been searching for a new puppy, and they're so happy when they leave with one of mine. It's just a great feeling. It makes me happy. My vet suggested we give the 3rd shot a few days before they would have had it. Seeing as none have any signs of needing any treatment, we gave the third shot and as we speak, all are doing fine. I don't know why Abby and Elliott got sick and these others didn't. I wish I had an answer, but I thank God these others are staying healthy. Even tho it may sound more believable to hear that an entire litter was down with the same symptoms, that's just not the case, and I don't know why. It makes me wonder... could there be some new mutaited strain of Parvo? I don't know. My vet has certainly not told me all's well, give them a shot and send me on my way. I know I'm not out of the woods, by any means. I wish I owned stock in Clorox! I've gone thru gallons of it. Luckily I have desert landscape, no grass to replace, and my house is all ceramic tile. So I can go crazy with the bleach, straight from the jug, and not hurt anything but the germs. It sort of amazes me that so many think I'm sitting back, unconcerned, doing nothing. What kind of world is this, that no one tries to see the good in a person? Only the bad. It makes this situation that much sadder. But I'm glad I can now come on this site and try to make this whole tragic mess more understandable for all of you who are being so kind to Abby and Elliott's families. I do think that is very admirable. |
| I feel horrible for what Abby and Elliots owners have gone through, but I also feel bad for what Julie is going through too.
Whether or not Julie is a good/reputable breeder or not is not for me to say, I don't know her or her dogs. What I CAN tell you is that even the most reputable breeder can have coccidia, parvo or any number of things infect their dogs. It is every breeders worst nightmare. A healthy dog with a strong immune system may not come down with parvo once exposed. What *I* think happened is those two pups were stressed by shipping/going to new homes, and that lowers the strength of the immune system. That would explain why they got it and the ones still at Julie's don't have it. It doesn't mean her home and dogs are not at risk, and all the disinfecting is vitally necessary. If parvo remains in your home Julie, the next time any dog or puppy is infected with something as simple as fleas or worms, the parvo can then take hold because their systems will be compromised. Aside from the merit of Julie's dogs or breeding practices, in this situation I think she is handling it as best she can. Admirably. It's a horrible thing to happen, but I do not believe she knowingly sent out sick puppies, and I do think she is trying to do what she can to help those pups owners and prevent this from happening again. Welcome to the forum Julie... I'm glad you posted to explain things. You may find some responses hard to take, but please keep in mind we are all passionate about these dogs, as I'm sure you are. I would recommend disinfecting like crazy, reading up as much as possible about parvo and how to deal with it in your environment and dogs as well as taking a hiatus from breeding until you can be as certain as possible it's gone. Good luck. |
| I'm very glad to hear both sides of the story.
Julie, your response to very harsh criticism has been very professional. I am very impressed with your ability to respond calmly and not attack people on this forum the way other breeders have in response to harsh criticism. It does sound like your heart is in the right place and healthy puppies are your biggest concern. I was thinking about it over the last few hours... and this is an opportunity for us to all learn from this. Breeders and experienced people out there on the forum.... How do you protect those young puppies with their undeveloped immune systems before and after they are born? Sterilized whelping box and area. Do you separate mom-to-be from other dogs in home? When can puppies go outdoors? When can puppies interact with other dogs in home? What precautions do you take before handling puppies? When can friends/family/outside people visit? If there's something Julie could possibly do differently in the future to prevent this from happening again, I'm sure she would be happy to hear it. I am not a breeder but I can share all I learned from our breeder. Noone was allowed to visit the home before the puppies were 3 weeks old. Not even family. The only outside person to enter the home is the vet - who comes to the breeder's home to remove dewclaws (thus preventing exposure to unknown dogs). Our breeder told us that mother's milk gives them a certain level of immunity up to 8 weeks, then pups get their first shots at 8 weeks before going home with new families. We were given strict instruction to limit time outside to potty breaks only and no contact with other dogs until 12 weeks of age when 2nd set of puppy shots are given - then they're okay to meet other dogs and go on walks, etc. and we could continue socialization. That is the limit to my knowledge. I hope people with more knowledge/experience will share their thoughts. Julie, if you are concerned that your vet's vaccination schedule may not be as effective as it can be, maybe seek a 2nd or 3rd vet's opinion. I think we can all learn something from this awful experience. |
| I see Willowsprite already shared her thoughts while I was writing that.
Thanks! |
| Steph's mom,
All the questions you ask just confirm that not just anyone should be breeding. If someone has to ask how to do this and how to do that, then perhaps they have not done their homework before blindly breeding and breeding and breeding... Julie, I wish I could sympathize with you. You sound like someone who got in alittle over their heads in a business you were not properly educated on nor prepared for. That is a shame...a shame for you and a shame for the puppies and their owners. Hoepfully we all learn something here... However, there is no excuse for deplorable conditions. I was never at your home so I can't say for sure but you know what is true and what isn't. No one is asking you to comment. If the conditions are what was claimed, there is no excuse for it. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. You know what is true and what isn't. let your conscious dirct you. Coccidia is contacted by unclean and unsanitary conditions. It stays incubated for 13 days when symtoms finally appear. it is highly contagious and almost impossible to eliminate...read further: TAKEN FROM AN OES NEWSLETTER FOR THE PROFESSIONAL BREEDER: "Coccidiosis is almost impossible to kill--might have to use a blow torch. I don't think Clorox does it. Thank you for the info. I, had I been in that position, would have > consulted with the vet for the proper disinfecting agent. However, I was > not aware > that it could live in the soil so long. Therefore, I see this breeder as > more > than careless she, or he, is a menace when the problem can have such a > long > term effect." Those are not my words but the words of others who are experienced in the breeding world.....hope they are well taken. > |
Ashley wrote: Coccidia is contacted by unclean and unsanitary conditions. It stays incubated for 13 days when symtoms finally appear. it is highly contagious and almost impossible to eliminate
That is not completely true. It is true that unclean conditions will have more illness outbreaks of all kinds, but parasites can be picked up anywhere. http://www.vetinfo.com/dogpara.html http://stason.org/TULARC/recreation/dog ... iosis.html http://www.pug-puppy.com/canine-diseases.html |
| I think all parties have had an opportunity to aire their opinions on these very sad circumstances.
I would like to suggest that rather then have a cat fight ensue, that the syntax change to a more productive and educational one, in which the entire OES community can benefit. I think the emotion and assaults have exceeded the threshold of reasonableness. |
| I read the article from the links and every one of them say the coccidia parasite is common in unclean and unsanitary environments...with a warning that it will likely infest the entire litter and not just one puppy. Also says how hard it is to kill and how dangerous it is for puppies. Usually carried by the mother and infested by feces....how clean can someone be if the pups are stepping and eating and sleeping in Mom's feces?
I also think perhaps this thread should be moved to another heading. However, I also think it is a topic that should be of interest to all dog owners, not just OES. People come to this forum looking for help and answers to questions. |
wjsVT wrote: I think all parties have had an opportunity to aire their opinions on these very sad circumstances.
I would like to suggest that rather then have a cat fight ensue, that the syntax change to a more productive and educational one, in which the entire OES community can benefit. I think the emotion and assaults have exceeded the threshold of reasonableness. I'm not sure where you're seeing this. I actually think this discussion has been handled amazingly well so far and hope to see it continue to be informative without personal attacks. |
| It's nice to see the breeder posting her side of the story. I imagined she was on the other side feeling horrible from the comments and with what happened. I do believe accidents like this can happen, but hopefully are learned from since they are preventable.
Quote: I didn't think it very fair that all these reviews were coming from people who have never even seen one of my puppies.
Actually, I thought the first one left WAS from a buyer. There were also another that stated they have been to your home. As Ashley did a good job stating, things just didn't add up to some of us especially if someone left your home worried enough to come post on oes.org awhile back... |
| Coccidia is not just caused by unsanitary conditions. A puppy can become infected by eating feces of birds, squirrels, etc., which can be quite an enticing treat to a puppy. I'm still chasing our Norfolk Terrier around the yard as he goes after Rabbit turds constantly.
Ashley, the OES list that you are quoting from is not just compiled of breeders. It is a mix of people, just like it is here, in all aspects of the breed. The blow torch comment seemed "tongue & cheek" when I read it on the list. While I think Parvo is incredibly serious, and I still wouldn't recommend a breeder outside of OESCA here in the US, you can't blame the Parvo solely on unsanitary conditions. Having had some discussions with OESCA breeders, they always will say that if you breed long enough, you will see "everything". What matters is how they correct & prevent that situation from happening again. I would hope that ALL breeders are taking appropriate steps to ensure the health of their puppies, but sometimes things just happen. Even though I still overall detest Puppyfind.com, I think that this breeder is doing everything she can now to rectify the situation. |
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