Am I vaccine phobic?
I kind of let him get away with things after the scare we had Saturday night, but he seems so...well, different...???? Maybe its the full moon... |
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| It's most likely he got used to some extra attention and worrying and is demanding it now... I think.... who knows though... |
| ^^
that's what I would think to, but maybe we're wrong!! |
| Hi there:
I don't think you are vaccine phobic. You obviously have done enough reading to be alert to the possible negative side affects most vaccines DO contribute. It is a proven fact that there are lots and lots of reactions to vaccines. In the recent 2006 veterinary guidelines for vaccines - posted in 2006 in the Health and Nutrition section of this forum - you can read them. Vaccine reactions that are easily recognized by the general public and average vet are usually allergic reactions to the vaccine - either instantaneous or within a day or so. But there are a whole lot more vaccine reactions that until recently - haven't been considered by many. It took Dr. Jean Dodds and Dr Ron Schultze and a committe of concerned vets to bring many of them to light and they include alot of behavioral issues, TONS of auto-immune reactions tied to vaccinations, and much much more. With humans - it has been proven!!!!! that vaccinations change the DNA - thus - if you affect the DNA - now it is "genetic". Many of us believe that this research is probably transferrable to dogs. Thus - IF you damage a dog with vaccines - they pass on this damage to their offspring - it may not show up the same way but there is damage. So - IF you wish to learn more and more about possibilities regarding vaccines and issues - consider joining either Truthaboutvaccines or Jstsayno2vacs at yahoogroups - or go visit www.truthaboutvaccines.org and it will point you to EXCELLENT articles to read - especially the one by Dr. Dee Blanco that points specifically to reactions commonly seen that are attributed to certain vaccines. Happy to chat on or off list more about this OR you can join my new NaturalOES list at yahoogroups.com - where I'm positive - we'll discuss vaccines from time to time. Judy & Mick |
| I forgot to mention that it is a abomination that anyone in the veterinary medical field would allow a 12 week old puppy to be vaccinated by a rabies vaccine. I know it has become the "thing" to do but rabies and thus the chronic disease caused by the rabies vaccine is a neurologically-based disease - and what the vaccine does!!!! is strip the sheath off the neurons that are important in many aspects of the brain and motor skills.
If you watch dogs that have never had a rabies vaccine compared to those that have had rabies vaccines young and have been affected by them - the difference in coordination is incredible. Numerous owners report a "disconnect" between brain and motor coordination of limbs following the rabies vaccine and somewhat - the distemper vaccine. HOD - is proven to be linked to distemper vaccines!!!!! Many states - like Massachusetts have the regulation that a pup gets rabies at 6 months of age. Many towns and vets try to push for 12 - 16 weeks - and you can almost always get the town to back off if you cite the state regulations OR get your vet to back you. IF your vet doesn't back you - get a better vet! While the rabies vaccine is bad enough in a dog that has a developed immune system - a baby OES or any dog at 12 weeks of age isn't anywhere near having a developed immune system. What a sad state of affairs BUT please be assured - it wasn't YOUR fault- they recommended it but in MY opinion - your job is to learn from this. IF your puppys only reaction is mouthiness - you'll be lucky. I KNOW that not only do dogs have rabies vaccinosis from getting the vaccine but they inherit it fom their parents - it lasts for generations! Alot of us see it - it is very clear and it doesn't go away quickly. Yes! There are things you can do to try to help your puppy. Training will NOT help the puppy although it might help cover up the issue to a point that you are happy and you think it went away - but the issue is health based and thus - will come up in some other way. Alot of behavioral issue that OES have in my opinion are health-based. A healthy OES will have good herding drive, good play behavior, good toward other dogs, everything will be balanced. Anytime you see something that is "over the top" - you should question it. There is a reason OES were considered fabulous farm dogs at one point and wonderful nursemaids, etc. They used to be more balanced and healthy. For instance - chasing light spots. Or biting water. IF the dog does this and you call them while they are doing it - and they come to you and go on to do something else while the light spots or water is still there- that is just a fun behavior they like - but if it is obsessive compulsive seeming - it is over-the-top. If they won't react to any commands and just are obsessed with that thing happening - not a good sign. BUT very very common - in many breeds. But common does not mean healthy in my mind! All pups are mouthy and some of this is stage, age, some is training BUT if you saw a CHANGE (the magic word) within hours, days or a week or two of the rabies shot - you can almost be sure that there was an affect from the vaccine. Will it "go away" - maybe. Will it possibly morph to something else - possibly. All depends upon the strength of that babies immune system and the predisposition that the parents passed on to the pup in regards to what ways the pup will show its weaknesses. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say much of the behavioral issues that are associated with OES are related to over-vaccination. There is a reason that the OES is regarded by many dog training types to be stupid, stubborn, aggressive and out of control! YES - poor training focus can be a part of it. Nothing in life in my mind is due to only one factor but they didn't always have this reputation. If you look at many breeds - like the golden - you will see a parallel development of the SAME behavioral problems as seen in the OES over the last 20 years - the golden used to be a wonderful family dog and great all around breed. NOW - it is associated with dog-aggressive breeds - I can hardly go a week without running into another dog-aggressive golden! Two different breeds - NO similar genes - same issues. Hmmm - what is the common denominator - sensative breeds bred to work with humans which predisposes them to have similar predilictions - my feeling is they show vaccine damage mostly by behavioral problems, and next by gastro problems, next by connective tissue problems (hips, etc), and last - by cancer - which is merely a state where we missed all the warning signs and did nothing about it! Just my thoughts on it - I'm not a vet but I am passionate about vaccine damage as I've suffered for years trying to repair clear vaccine damage that destroyed my past dogs and I SEE the difference in a dog that has had less vaccines. And I deal with breeders who stopped vaccinating and see HUGE differences in the litters!! or I talk with breeders in countries that don't do rabies vaccines and compare health issues - amazing!!!!! Judy & Mick |
| Your thoughts and opinions are interesting. At this point I can't agree or disagree. I am not a vet either. But because of that, I have to leave it to the experts, ie the Vet.
I'm thinking his "extra mouthiness" was because he is now cutting some of his adult teeth...he seems better now. Still mouthy but under control. And in the last few weeks I see the new teeth coming in so I am attributing that extra mouthiness to that... The other "behavioral" problems you speak of, I'm not sure....I think as puppies dogs test the waters and obedience training is an absolute necessity from 12 weeks forward. I think OES get the reputation of being stubborn and "dumb" because they are well, goofy, almost their whole life. Sort of never grow up. But dumb is another issue. I actually think the average sheepie is smarter than their owner and can "out think" them into getting what they want...sort of submissive dominace...Most training is for the owners, not the dogs 
And Goldens now being agressive...I think that is nothing more than another popular breed being over produced by puppy mills and people in it for the money. They see a breed as popular as a Golden and they breed the heck out of it knowing the demand is there and never do the testing and health checks that should be done because that would cut into the profit of sales...It happened with Dobes when they were popular and shepards, and collies, etc....Still not convinced its all about the vaccines... But I will admit, some vaccines may not be necessary in all areas of the country. However, I would be uncomfortable having my dog unvaccinated by the "core" vaccinations... |
| Hi,
I agree with Verve Up as even when I crossed the boarder with Merlin at 8 wks, he was except from rabies shots as they are not required until the pup is 4 months of age for cross boarder transportation. Just posting so others may know the regulations via cross boarder adoption of pups. Only a vet certificate was required saying he was healthy. My vet and I consulted a great deal after I read a lot of controversy these past years on "over vaccination" I read. She and many members who consulted their vets all over N/A and Europe have come to the conclusion that innoculations (once the pup has his initial 3 which end at 12 wks) only need a booster and then they are probably good for 5 years and not 1 like most companies will have you believe. It's a catch 22 however, as obedience schools, kennels, cross boarder travel and grooming places may not take your pet if they are not up to date on their innoculations. There is a blood test however, that will determine if your dog still has the anti-bodies in their system which shows if they need a booster. This may work to show the various agencies that the pet is still safe to be around others. I haven't tried it personally but think it's worth the battle in years to come. Every year I had my cats, dogs innoculated yearly with boosters and rabies every 3 years. I will have the blood test done next time. |
| Great posts saltydog, very informative. |
| Oops I goofed and said Verve Up when I meant Salty Dog. Apologies!
Marianne and the boys |
| I'd love to know more of your thoughts on vaccines. Please share. I'm not the only word on vaccines. I happily give people my opinions but they are just that - my opinions - not gospel but definately based upon much research.
Avery wrote me privately and asked a few things - which I think are good to discuss: a) why dogs 20 years ago seemed to not have issues with vaccines, etc. and b) don't vets who you trust and like - only do what is safe for dogs? Here was my perspective on it but first - I'll explain briefly why I don't believe in any vaccines. I don't believe vaccines create "immunity". Only a strong healthy immune system give a dog or cat or person - the ability to mount a defense against a invasive germ or virus or injury. Vaccines are foreign, they are injected into the body - thus bypassing most of the bodys normal defense mechanisms and worst of all - in the effort to be "cost effective" - vets and companies lump them together. In nature - the animal NEVER has to run into more than one disease at a time. And lastly - if my puppy bumps into parvo - he just has to deal with parvo - not with all the additives that the vaccine has in order to a) decrease his immune system so the vaccine can work, b) preserve the vaccine, and c) all the other crap necessary to make it function. The additives are something much more dangerous than the disease in my mind! I would rather risk dealing with acute disease like parvo or distemper than EVER risk inducing chronic disease (from vaccines) in another of my dogs. Chronic disease is in my mind insideous, incurable, gets passed on and on, and makes the dogs life miserable in horrible ways! I can choose this belief system because I believe in a) the concept of natural health, b) the concept that the immune system is the key to all health, c) I have the tools - my health team for my dog is at my fingertips at all times with tools that WORK! and d) - most important for ME but only ME!! - I feel that IF a dog was a weak enough individual to succumb naturally to parvo or distemper - that dog would be guaranteed to be a dog that would have vaccine reactions and react to chemicals and bad diet too. So - since I believe that ALL vaccines, flea and tick chemicals, heartworm meds, and many traditional medicine choices destroy the health of the immune system and IF my focus is to build up and maintain a healthy immune system - I would never ever want to do any of that with any dog. Now - about the 20 years ago dogs didn't react: First - "never had problems with vaccines 20 years ago" = is a misleading statement if you think about it. 20 years ago - no puppies got 6 vaccines all at once at 6 weeks, 8 weeks, 10 weeks and 12 weeks and rabies on top of that. 20 years ago - they maybe got parvo and distemper - once, or twice and often separately. Rabies was almost always given somewhere between 6-12 months because the immune system needs to be more mature to deal with it! Also and even more important. If you think of it - 20 years = the potential of 10 generations of dogs ago. Dr. Pitcairn - a world renowned holistic vet states in his research that with each generation of bad health choices - we pick away at the immune system of our dogs. Thus dogs 20 years ago had a much much stronger and functioning immune system. They could withstand bad diet and a few vaccine assaults because they were so healthy compared to the dogs of today. I like his method of describing it and I'll try to duplicate it: Take 2 breeding animals as puppies - given 100% health. You feed them bad diet, you vaccinate them and put toxic chemicals on them - this degrades their health to perhaps 90% - still VERY healthy. They breed. Their pups can't be any healthier than the health of the parents AT THAT TIME - so 90% health is what they start with - bad diet, bad vaccines, bad chemicals, bad raising experiences - health is now 75% - you breed these dogs - those pups start at 75% health - at 75% health - things look really good although maybe dogs occaisonally get ear infections. Pups start at 75% health - bad choices - - now at 60% health- their pups start at 60% health.....etc. Do you see what 10 generations of bad choices in health can do. These numbers hopefully are exaggerated in regards to the damage but not all of us think this is too far from truth! This explains why your first dogs could have vaccines and eat kibbles and bits and be gloriously health and live to 15 but todays dogs are lucky to live to be 9 OR show reactions to vaccines as puppies, or live a life of chronic disease. and about the vets: I don't think most vets - even the nicest ones - are keeping up with the important research and evidence regarding diet, vaccines, chemicals, etc. They are busy, and were never ever taught to focus on maintaining good health - just squashing the symptoms of illness. In my focus - symptoms are a language that the body uses to tell me what is wrong deep inside. By removing a fever, an ear infection, eye goopies, etc by putting medicines on the animal - I just hid valuable information regarding illness MUCH bigger than a silly ear infection - no matter how much it disturbs the owner to have the dog scratch. All this is stuff I came to believing over 10 years of research - I don't toss this out for people to believe ME - I am not anything except one passionate person who loves their sheepdog and thanks ALL of you guys for intruducing me to the fun of living a life with a sheepdog. But since I'm here - I will apply everything I know - to sheepdogs or any other breed - it is all the same - in every breed - just slightly different clues. Judy & Mick |
| I chose not to vaccinate Mick with any "core" vaccines because I felt natural immunity was better and safer. I don't believe the vaccines offer any value but definately lots of concern. All of the people I train with and do things with (dog people) have reached a point where they also don't choose to vaccinate for anything - other than rabies - rabies is the law. Nothing else is required by law.
Mick and his friends have been healthy and happy. I started Mick in 2 puppy-K classes at 9 weeks of age, and after those 6 weeks - he joined a Manners Please (basic obedience fast paced) and puppy agility and puppy rally-O. I had no trouble entering Mick in any classes at a young age - or ever in fact. I am supported in my decisions by my vets. They would be willing to write me letters of support if I needed them. But I never needed them. Most training facilities only require vaccines because it is a liability thing based on lack of scientific knowledge. And if you just don't have the information the first class - it is often forgotten. More and more places have a don't ask/don't tell policy believing this is between owner and vet. Boarding facilities are different. I would NEVER put my dog in one because think of all those dogs - who just got a vaccine in order to go there. Most vaccines shed modified live!!!!!! virus for several weeks following vaccination. That means if you too vaccinated your dog - and in order for that vaccine to work - it suppressed your dogs immune system - you just put him into a stressful, possibly dirty situation with a less than happy immune system with viruses spewing everywhere. I think a non-vaccinated dog would be safer in that situation! But instead - just consider finding a in-home dog sitter or finding a friend to watch your dog and you'll watch theirs when they travel. Works for all of us. Have you ever pondered the number of dogs that bloat during kennel visits? Stress - in various forms - contributes to all sorts of health issues. There are numerous discussions by natural-raising breeders about how pups that were vaccinated for parvo - come down with parvo and die - and pups that are NOT vaccinated - either don't get affected OR if they get parvo - they recover fairly easily. This is not 100% - there is always the weak individual -and life has it that some animals die - of the most siimple things. - But in general - I now believe that while many recommend basic puppy shots -they aren't for me and I will not ever give a puppy any puppy shots. And I will seek out breeders who have multiple generations of dogs that have had not vaccines as I feel this sets up the pups to much much healthier. In fact I will wait for years until that pup could be created. Not only because I want the health behind that pup but because I want the breeder behind the pup who thinks in the same health vein that I do. Lastly - titres merely indicate the current level of exposure to a disease. So - if you have a dog that "needs" updates and you bring the dog in for a titre and it comes back low for either parvo or distemper - all you need to do is take that dog over to a puppy-K class once or twice - just walk by or walk through the area after pups have been there - wait 2 weeks - and almost always - you'll have a lovely titre that will make the vet say - oh good - see you later. Not that you EVER need to "re-booster" because Dr. Ron Schultz - the man who MAKES the vaccines and does all the duration of immunity studies on them - has said in papers and publically - "ONCE YOU HAVE A TITRE GREATER THAN 0 - YOU HAVE "IMMUNITY" FOR LIFE!!!!" - meaning once the animal has managed to recognize the "enemy" and mount a defense (titre shows the defense army) - it will be able to (given a healthy immune system) for life. The KEY is the immune system. Doesn't matter if the dog had a vaccine - if their immune system is destroyed - they can't withstand any disease attack! Judy & 3 year old Mick (I never have bothered to titre him - it would merely be to satisfy other people's curiosity to see if yet another unvaccinated dog showed high titres to parvo and distemper - but I haven't bothered to waste my money - maybe some day - if I do - I'll post the results) |
| Hi,
I always found the topic of immunization very interesting and here's my views on the subject. I'm basing this on my own experiences with 30 +cats and 8 dogs that I've had the pleasure to live with since childhood. At age 12, my sister and I would often bring home strays so we eventually had 13 cats and 2 dogs. We were well known in the area and so people often knocked on our door with stray cats. One time, someone brought over 4 cats. One of the cats had no sense of balance, wobbled when she walked and basically looked as if she had too much to drink. I found out years later this cat probably had Encephalitis when she was born. 3 of the cats (one whom was pregnant at the time and had given birth 1 month prior) came down with disempter. A horrible disease! I watched helplessly as one by one the cats died..thrashing on the ground, foaming at the mouth, eyes rolling. The only one that it did not effect ironically was the cat with Encephalitis. I remember walking to the vets with the last remaining cat whom was vomiting all over me and he turned me away. No hope he told me. Pfff so much for taking pity on a kid who had walked a mile carrying a sick cat and offering to put it down humanely. I even had babysitting money in my pocket! Thus became my lifelong conviction that never again would I not innoculate my pets. The kittens had no chance of survival as their mom (the cat I carried to the vets that day) passed away too from that horrible death. I visited the library and read everything I could about fighting the disease and I remember one of the things mentioned they lose their sense of smell and thus won't eat. This in turns leads to weekness. I played hookey from school for 3 wks and fed the babies round the clock and they survived. I made sure they were innoculated and all three of the babies lived to the ripe old age of 17, and the other two until 19. We kept all three of them for the duration of their lives and even tho the were indoor/outdoor cats they lived very long lives. I never once forgot their yearly boosters and every animal that came into my home was the same. Snoopy my childhood dog was a Samoyed/Lab he lived to 17, Ralph -19, my last two cats (not the ones whom I mentioned above) lived to 19 and 21. Shaggy, my OES lived to 15 1/2. She did have Immune Deficiency Thrombocytopia and was diagnosed at age 8 but through diet and natural vitamins lived until her old age. Some may claim she may have developed the immune disorder due to innoculations but research is still inconclusive regarding the results. In total out of aprox 45 pets, with the exception of 2 of them, lived the duration of their lives until they passed with us. One passed before his life span at age 3 due to an accident, the other was a dog adopted from the SPCA whose original owners I ran into 2 years later(a old couple who weren't allowed dogs in their new place). Long story, but eventually I gave them the dog back as their landlord saw how much they loved this dog and allowed them to keep her. Sadly the cat with encephalitis was killed by a dog whom came into the yard at age 15 when my Samoyed (her life long protector) passed 2 weeks prior at age 17. The rest surpassed their lifespans. I also teach special ed and my students are autistic which has increased so much within the last 10 years that some claim immunization is the cause. So far research has not supported this theory as it may also be enviormental factors too. Overall, my personal opinion is I would still innoculate my animals for the first couple years of their lives and then feel confident they are protected. All of my pets have far exceeded the life expectency for their lives which I believe was due to diet, fresh air - excercise, protection against disease, and lots of love of course! 
So in a nutshell I've been blessed that every animal that I've had the pleasure of living with has lived a long life. I currently have Blue who turned 18 last month and is still very active. I made sure he had his yearly boosters but will no longer bring him in for that other than rabies. I have a good working relationship with my 3 vets (it's also a teaching hospital and contain their own lab) as I've been going to them for 10 years. They were the ones that discussed the recent literature that stated even tho the companies state to get yearly boosters, they are now finding they're probably good for 3-5. In the past as I've said I did innoculate all the animals without fail yearly (they gave me 40% discounts for my numerous pets) but with my vets advice I will get the blood test done to see if the antibodies still exist. Panda is probably good and I may consider innoculating Merlin for another year or two if the blood test don't show the anti-bodies. I'm on the fence regarding immunizations truthfully, but I also know first hand the horrors of watching pets die because they weren't protected. It's a tough decision and each pet owner must weigh all options. I was just giving my own personal observations and thoughts regarding my own experiences. Marianne and the boys |
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