A Second Dog - Behavior Change
We’ve noticed Hendrix being very withdrawn from us. Not responding when we call him, not sleeping on our bed, overall just depressed. The shelter said to the adjustment period a good month till the 2 are adjusted to each other. My husband and I are really concerned about Hendrix, he’s more of a cat then a dog and he’s not his usual playful, happyself. We’ve even given Hendrix more attention then Zappa and he’s just not himself. Does anyone have any advice for us? Thanks in advance! |
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| That is going to be hard!!
I think you need to try to establish "pack order" in QUICK ORDER!!! Have you read Jan Fennel's book The Dog Listener ? I believe she address' that problem quite well (if I remember correctly). Hendrix may be going through an adjustment period, but I think he'll adjust. Especially if establishing your Pack order means intervening when the new pup takes advantage of Hendrix. Ty is often the aggressor in my house, when I give them each a bone he will hide his and then go after Tasker's. Tasker is submissive enough that he would let him get aways with it. I try to keep an eye out and if Ty takes his bone I take it away and give it back to Tasker. If Ty persists I'll pu him in his crate with his own bone til Tasker has finished his. |
| I'm sorry you are having these problems! I don't have any suggestions that won't already be mentioned, but I wanted to say that I hope we get pictures! I have taken a new liking to Wheaten's!
Quote: Ty is often the aggressor in my house, when I give them each a bone he will hide his and then go after Tasker's. Tasker is submissive enough that he would let him get aways with it.
 that is so my house. but, i allow the behavior because "my" maltese needs that aggressive side or she'd get nothing ...and yuki would walk all over her (get her food). She's only like this w/her bone and her "ball," but any other toy... yuki just lets her grab chunks of hair as if she doesn't even feel it. When it comes to food, Yuki has learned to just sit over my maltese until she's given permission to eat the rest (sometimes my maltese is generous). If it was a threat in our opinion, we wouldn't let it happen, but it's all she has to stick up for her tiny self. Goodness knows, I know my OES can if she really wanted to! |
| I'll post some pictures of Zappa in a few minutes, look for them in the "Pictures" forum. |
Wow, so cute! Even if he is a brat  Good luck working out the adjustment period, I know this must be stressful... |
| Just my opinion and I am not a professional trainer...
We don't allow the dogs to settle problems themselves as some people may recommend. With 6 dogs in a pack it's never a good idea. It sounds like this new boy is possessive over "things" so you need to control the "things". Quote: However when Hendrix went to get food from Zappa’s bowl, Zappa lashed out on him causing a fight that took my husband and I to break apart. First, they should have their own dishes and they need to be taught to not eat out of the other's dish. You need to supervise feeding time. They need to have their own specific place to eat too. Once the dishes are empty they immediately come up off the floor. We had issues with Panda when she first arrived... she would lash out at the others if they approached her dish or even tried to drink from the community water dish with her. They ALL had to be taught to leave her alone and also to wait their turn. She has come a long way. A treat dropped on the floor at one time would cause a fight... with training, Panda learned to leave it and look to me for another treat instead. Once she settled in and the training was in place, we haven't had problems.Quote: They both had bones and Hendrix was still working on his, Zappa ripped it from his mouth!
If you are going to give them bones, strictly supervise them. If you see the new boy heading over to Hendrix, tell him to leave it and have him go back to his bone instead. Watch for the body language that comes before the action. Just some ideas... I hope it helps. There is always that settling in period... for Panda it took several months but it was well worth the effort. Good luck! Jaci |
| Oh the challenges of owning more than one doggie! As you know, we've had aggression issues in our house with Annie towards Fozzie. We are constantly providing verbal correction in order to gain back "control". There are times that the dogs need to be separated so we can have some peace and so Annie can relax. She is always on guard. I don't have much to add from what others mentioned.
Please PM me so you can get my phone# and we can talk. Also, can you come to Fozzie's party? Pm me! |
| I agree with 6Girls. If there is food aggression, make sure they eat in separate places.
Give Hendrix time. I'm sure he'll eventually warm up to Zappa. I would say it took a good month for Frank to get used to us bringing Haggis home. Also, I am sure there is some posturing going on with Zappa & Hendrix. Hendrix's way to show he's boss is to ignore Zappa and I'm sure that's what is going on as well. I wouldn't suggest trying to give Hendrix extra attention. Everything will balance out. I do have to add too that terriers in general have a little attitude, but as long as you can intervene as much as possible to try and nip the behavior before it turns into a fight, then things will work themselves out. |
| Lucy didn't even want to eat for a month when we first got Clyde. It really upset the order that she was used to. It really does take time but Hendrix will adjust. Just make sure you still give him lots of attention and a little one on one time like he was used to before. Sometimes, I still take Lucy out alone without the boys, which she loves. |
| It took a few months for Lucky to accept that Sam wasn't going anywhere. I agree with Butterscotch and do the same thing. When I run errands, I will sometimes just take one of the dogs (normally Lucky) with me for just a one-on-one reward with Mom. |
| For those who own 2 dogs, is it worth it? Do the dogs seem happier? Do you think they appreciate having one another?
Both dogs have their own water and food on opposite sides of the kitchen. We also separate them during the day since we are trying to get Zappa into a routine. Thank you all for your advice, my husband and I were splitting our attention with the two dogs. I guess it makes sense to give more attention to Hendrix since he expects it, while Zappa is happy just to get a pat on the head! I guess I was making the mistake of rotating who gets the treat first. My husband and I have begun using ALL your suggestions! |
| I will break this down and address several different areas.
First of all, a bit of background on Zappa is needed. How long was he at the shelter? Was he a tray with no background or was he given up with some history? Hendrix's Mom wrote: He is believed to be about 9 months to a year old. We’ve already seen 3 sides of aggression the Wheaten (named Zappa) has shown with Hendrix. However when Hendrix went to get food from Zappa’s bowl, Zappa lashed out on him causing a fight that took my husband and I to break apart. This fight broke out 2 more times, once when Hendrix had a toy, he stopped to itch and Zappa snagged it from him. The third time was last night. They both had bones and Hendrix was still working on his, Zappa ripped it from his mouth! Zappa is not exhibiting agression. Agression is categorised as "unprovoked". Zappa is doing what is normal to a dog.They are oportunists, so anything that looks like it is available is up for grabs. He is not doing anything that my Bosley wouldn't do. Managing it and getting this behavior to change is very possible, but it will take work. This is again, related to "resource guarding"...Do a search and it is mentioned many time lately. It is quite common in multi-dog households. I have fostered many, many dogs, sometimes more than 1 at a time, and they all had to be integrated with mine at some point. I don't put up with any nonsense, but I also don't set them up for failure, either. First of all, feed them separate so nobody gets hurt. Think of 2 year-old human folk who do not now how to share. Now is not the time to get Zapp and Hendrix to cooperate in a manner than many of us do not even bother trying to do. You first concern is to reduce the stress level of both dogs, so that they can learn to relate. That means no toys, bones, food or anything that they can compete for. What I would do is separate them as often as possible, so that Zappa can start to bond with YOU and learn that YOU control the resources that he wants. Right now he doesn't know you from anyone else, and as far as he's concerned he is on his own in this world. Work on getting him relaxed and trusting of you. Keep things low-key and reward him LOTS for good behavior. He can learn to "sit" right now, if he doesn't know already. That is the first communication you can have with him. Hendrix and Zappa can some time getting to know each other "supervised" where you can see how they interact and be there for Hendrix. Zappa will need to learn that you are the bearer of all good things. When that happenss you will start to get results. Hendrix's Mom wrote: We’ve noticed Hendrix being very withdrawn from us. Not responding when we call him, not sleeping on our bed, overall just depressed. The shelter said to the adjustment period a good month till the 2 are adjusted to each other. My husband and I are really concerned about Hendrix, he’s more of a cat then a dog and he’s not his usual playful, happyself. We’ve even given Hendrix more attention then Zappa and he’s just not himself. Does anyone have any advice for us? Thanks in advance! Hendrix is quite confused.Imagine if you husband brought home another woman, put her in the kitchen and expected you two to hit it off rightr away...Hardly!!! This is not quite the same thing, but it is a big adjsutment to Hendrix. Here has never had to worry before about hugs, food, toys , etc. Now he gets told off 3 times by some rude pup who won't leave! Hendrix is staying out of trouble....and that is a good sign. Much better that he puts up with it or avoids altogether, than if he antagonised Zappa and did not leave him alone. This is much esy to handle. Hendrix will adjust. Don't coddle him, but do make sure that he gets lots of pats and positive attention when Zappa is around. You want him to be glad that Zappa is there, so when both dogs are together it should be times where you are interacting in a positive fashion with them. Your relationship with Hendrix is far more important than Zappa's realtionship with Hendrix, but you do need to work at making it work. In the end I am sure that Hendrix and Zappa will be best buddies.....They may never share a bone, but hey. Just to give you some insite, my Bosley doesn't like to share anything, and will steal from Dixie any chance he gets. And Dixie, bless her, will defer anything to him if it drops to the ground, Is it fair? No. Do I care? No, because there are no fights. They are happy with the arrangement, so why shouldn't I be? Give Hendrix time. If you try to force him to come to you, or sleep on the bed etc.he will not understand and may get even more stressed. Leave him be, but when he comes to you for attention be very happy with him. Hendrix's Mom wrote: He has not been aggressive with us, we’ve taken food from him, taken bones from him, etc.
This is EXCELLANT news....... If you had to deal with resource guarding from people it would be a whole different issue.....but do keep "testing" this, to make sure it continues. Trade up every now and again, to keep this solid.
Good luck! |
| How about 3 dogs? Clyde and Bear are the best of pals and have been since the day Bear came home. Even when they were fighting, they were still buddies. Clyde loves having a playmate and, even though Lucy doesn't much care for Bear, she gets the alone time that she didn't get when Clyde came.
I think the key is finding a good match for your household. I took Clyde all the way to Cleveland with me to meet Bear. They hit it off right off the bat but I was prepared to not bring Bear home if it didn't feel right. I talked with his foster mom and I told her that I wanted to give things a try for a week and see how things went before I made the lifetime commitment. She was agreeable and I promised to bring him all the way back to Cleveland (4 hours away) if it didn't. By the end of that week, even James was sold on him. Clyde is pretty food protective but we still free feed in different rooms. The boys steal from each other but they seem to have reached an agreement that it won't cause any fights between them. One will yelp at the other and the stealer goes running with his loot in his mouth, usually dropping kibble all over the place. Clyde will shove Bear out of his bowl and Bear will always walk away. Bear and Lucy share freely with each other. I'm always most surprised by that since Lucy usually can't stand Bear anywhere near her except when they're eating. Weird, huh? On the other hand, when I brought Buddy home (the Wheaten/OES mix that rescued for my MIL), he and Clyde didn't get along well at all. There wasn't really fighting, but you could tell right off the bat, it wasn't going to be a good match. Good thing my MIL had her heart set on him! On a side note, he's the happiest dog I've ever met now. He's adorable and super lovable. For us, it's really been worth it but it isn't always easy. Give it a little bit of time and see if things improve. Are they playing at all? Any kind of interaction other than negative stuff? |
| First of all, congratulations on Zappa! He's a beauty, just as Hendrix is! I seriously have considered getting a Wheaten at some point---right now, years down the line, it looks.
I agree that Hendrix is going to have a big period of adjustment. When we brought home puppy Archie, Merlin went into a huge snit. Oh, he loved the puppy just fine--outside. Actually bringing the intruder into his home was something else altogether. He refused to be in the same room with Archie--even at meal time! For a dog who was as food-focussed as Merlin was, this was astounding. I remember him slinking into the family room where we were eating dinner, pointedly glaring at us and then slinking downstairs to the basement to sulk! His normal position was where ever he thought it most likely that food would drop to the floor. Things improved slowly, and by the end of a month (which seems forever, I know), it was smooth sailing. The big turning point was when we had gone for our late evening stroll around the block and we were calling puppy Archie to come in. He simply wasn't responding to his name. Merlin, who had obediently come up the steps to go inside for the night heaved a sigh, lumbered down the stairs and herded Archie up, as if to say, "Come on, kid. Time for bed." There were still lessons to be learned, and it did help that Archie was more than willing to be the follower in the relationship. Interestingly enough, Archie has been much more accepting of the new puppies than Merlin was with him all those years ago. We very much appreciate that. Dogs really are as individual as people are. The big advantage there was that Archie was a small puppy of about 10 weeks when we got him. Vast difference in size. Same thing with Archie and the puppies. He was so much bigger and more mature that he easily assumed the leadership role over the puppies. I'm assuming Zappa is neutered. If not--I'd get right on that. Do try to take Hendrix on walks alone and give him some alone time with you and his dad. Hendrix and Zappa will work out a pecking order themselves and it may be that Zappa is simply a more dominant individual. Do I think it is worth it to have 2 dogs? Yes, I really do. Although I am sure Merlin would have been quite happy to remain an only dog, he did enjoy Archie. When we lost Merlin, we were very concerned about Archie being lonely, which is why we got the puppies. It isn't as though there aren't times when we know Archie wouldn't love for t he puppies to disappear, just as Merlin would have sometimes been happy to have Archie disappear. But there is obvious affection, enjoyment of playing. Archie seems to relish his leadership role with the puppies, something he couldn't have with Merlin who was firmly in control. |
| To answer you question w/my own personal experience, I would like to think it was worth it because we love Yuki...
BUT I'm not sure what my maltese would say. For the first year we had Yuki, my maltese seemed depressed. So bad, that I thought about the unthinkable, and that was giving her to my mom (her favorite person and home to be in). Since she said no though (she likes to look at her but didn't grow up in a culture that dogs are acceptable in a home), there's no way I could give her to anyone else. She was different in every way. Slept all day long in a different room, in the dark, and was forced to fight for the things she wanted (her food, her toys, attn, etc). We had to close all the bedroom doors so she is forced to stay out with everyone. We make time to play with "just her" too. She's gotten better, but still is happier when Yuki is at the groomers. She was in heaven when my mom was here. I make it a point to do special things for just her. Yuki loves her though (not that my maltese cares). |
| I think two dogs is a wonderful thing I am lucky to have two dogs that get along beautifully most of the time. Tasker is the oldest and he was 9 when Ty came to live with us. It was clear from day 1 that despite the huge difference in size Ty was the more dominant of the two and Tasker was quite happy with the order of things.
I say more dominant rather than the alpha dog because I think one key factor in the integration of another dog is to establish YOURSELF as the "alpha dog" or pack leader from the get go. That drastically reduces the margin for aggressive behavior on the part of the "pack" memebers. I also agree with (I think it was 6girls) who said do not leave them to settle their own issues. The moment conflict arises you need to steop in as pack leader and take control. Letting them solve their own squabbles causes escalation which results in one winning and one losing, YOU want to always be the winner. I think alot of it comes down to us putting our human values and feelings on dogs (my new found Cesar Milan knowledge). They are DOGS, not people, they don't feel jealousy they are competing with each other for pack hierarchy. If you establish the hierarchy from the get go that will relieve the stress of them having to do it. |
| Hi,
Lots of sound advice you've been given and I agree with most as to what's been said. You have to remember you don't know everything about Zappa's personality as that takes a period of time to know all his little quirks and nuances. Usually the older pre-existing dog in the household (Hendrix) would naturally be the Alpha (amongst the dogs) but not always. Some dogs are naturally comfortable giving up that role to the newcomer. This happened with Tasker and Ty and with Blue and Merlin in my household. Then along came Panda and more adjustments for the "boys". Food and Toys are triggers in my home so I am pro-active and don't allow those items to be around on the floor to avoid any disagreements. I defiantely would not be feeding them in the same room as that may be a potential trigger, resource guarding as Nicole mentioned. Eventually when you really get to know Zappa you may change the arrangements but for now and to relieve anxiety in both dogs - feed them seperate places. Leave Hendrix in his usual place , only change Zappa as he is the new dog. In the wild the alpha male wolf always gets first choice of food, best place to sleep, attention from the others, ect and the other wolves allow this to happen and in fact take comfort and feel more secure in knowing their position in the pack. Ginny was absolutely right about not allowing yourself to get caught up in giving dog people thoughts and feelings - they think like dogs. To be successful you also have to think and understand from their point of view. If you have 2 dogs or 100, one always emerges as the alpha or top dog amongst themselves. The Humans should always be Alpha in the kingdom..or lol dogdom. What I found helped enormously introducing different dogs into the household is: Removing potential triggers, Food and toys Lots of fun time away from the territory (home) where they are on neutral ground. Let them have fun even if they don't play together they will view themselves as a team in some ways. A good dog is a tired dog! It may be a bit of work for the first month but be consistent and take them out often - you will see a bond slowly start to develope as they explore and have fun times. Hendrix will then start viewing Zappa as a nice addition as "look at how much fun I've been having since he arrived". Try not to come to immediate conclusions as to it's not working out unless you've given yourself at least a month or two. Blue never did establish a friendship with Panda...dog #3 but he does tolerate him and they actually walk side by side and explore together when on walks in the woods. Merlin often romps ahead and unlike the situation at home where he and Blue are best buds, in the woods it's Panda and Blue that seem to enjoy each others company more. I realize you may think removing toys is not being fair to Hendrix but you are doing this temporarily. If overtime you see that this will still be an issue then perhaps do what I do with Blue and Panda - take him out for one on one time and then bring that favorite toy. Lastly, If I'm correct Zappa is 9 months? This seems to be a crutial time in dogs life , they are no longer pups and thus the "hands off attitude" concerning other dogs is changing. In dogs life it is against their code to attack a pup (not always 100% but true in most socialized dogs). Other dogs will dicipline pups but never fight them. This changes at aprox 9 months as the pup is now an emerging adult and other dogs may want to make sure the newcomer stays below them in the heriachy. Hendrix may be respecting that Zappa is still a pup although annoying he is restraining from attacking him and who knows eventually Zappa may emerge as the dominant one. It's easy as his mom to "feel sorry for Hendrix" but all dogs accept this as their way of life. In the meantime I would still allow Hendrix to view himself as top dog , pet him first, choice spot, feed him first, ext..but the uprights remain always in control. Good luck and Zappa is adorable. I'm hoping things work out. Marianne and the boys |
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