growling
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robinj wrote: As a grandma, should I be concerned that my daughter's new oes puppy is growling at my 2+ year old grandson. Our little boy is gentle when petting him or putting his arm around him but the puppy does growl. The pup is only 8 weeks and my daughter says she isn't capable of making malicious sounds. I'm worried - I owned a dog that wasn't good with kids for 16 years - it was hell!! Thanks
At this age the puppy should be growling in play. They do not really understand fear, or any other reason to be upset, so I wouldn't worry. But it is a good time to teach your grandson that when a dog growls it is time to leave it alone. Good practice.... |
| It's also a very good idea for your daughter to enroll herself and puppy in basic puppy classes. Part of the class should involve basic socialization with other dogs where the puppy will learn doggy manners. In the meantime, your daughter is right to tell her son that the puppy wants to be left alone when he growls. He's a very young puppy, and likely is having some big adjustments to make right now, as well as a lot of growing to do. It takes a toll in puppies just as it does toddlers.
And under no circumstances should your grandson be left alone with the puppy at this age (either puppy or child's age) or as the puppy grows. Even with the very best trained mature dogs, with the best temperment, it is important to remember that a dog is an animal and not another human being. They do not reason the same way people do, and young children should never be left alone with any animal. OES puppies grow very, very fast and unfortunately do not mature as quickly. So, inadvertently, they knock over a lot of stuff, simply because of their energy and lack of coordination. This will include a toddler, with no maliciousness intended at all. And also, there will be chewing. Lots and lots of chewing, including shoes, fingers, toes, clothing, children's toys, etc. |
| Growling should not be encouraged - even at 8 weeks old. That cute ball of fur will very soon be a big dog and growling will not be so cute.
I agree to enroll in some kind of puppy obedience class..also read some good books on raising a new puppy.."How to raise a puppy you can lie with" is a good book as is some others. I would not leave the baby alone with new pup either. And baby should learn how to "play" with the new puppy, not to pull ears, poke eyes, etc. An 8 week old puppy will be mouthing alot too as he is just geting his teeth and it could hurt little human baby.. I don't think its all a big deal but should be "nipped" in the bud... Good luck. |
Thanks to all of you for answering my concerns. Each time I see Izzy she is more fun then the time before! I did impress upon my daughter not to leave either of the kids alone with her. And my daughter's Dad agreed - this always helps my case. Thanks again. I'm now going to grooming with a question!  |
| I think raising dogs is a bit like raising children, there are lots of different theories and ideas and no real "right" or "wrong", you have to read, research, talk and then decide what works best for you and your animals.
I have never allowed my dogs to growl at a human, pup or adult and get away with it. If it is a pup and you are playing when the growling starts then the play is immediately stopped. An adult dog should be corrected. I believe it sets a dangerous precident which encourages aggressive behavior. I would not interfere if two dogs were playing and growling, that is acceptable pack behavior. But I don't think a dog should ever be given the freedom to exhibit aggressive behavior toward the human, who should always be considered the "pack" leader. We don't play "tug of war" in my house for that reason. But there are alot of people who do and think it's fine. Again, you will discover that for every dog there is a different "idea" of what is right or wrong and you need to decide what works for you. |
| I am someone that has a sheepie (7 months old) and a small child (20 months old) living together in harmony. These are some things that helped in making a comfortable transition in welcoming a pet into our home:
1) At no time are Fred and my daughter left alone together in room. 2)My daughter understands that Fred's food and water area and his crate are his AREAS. 3)If we are all playing and things start to get too crazy everyone takes a break. An 8 week old puppy should only be out of his/her crate to play for 15 minutes intervals. Like people, when dogs get tired they tend to get a little grouchy. Pups need to nap. It's possible this is why the dog is growling. 4)My Vet. also stressed that was important that I make Fred understand that he was not dominant over my daughter. If he ever does anything that seems like he is trying to assert dominance, I yell a firm NO. Just understand that a sheepdog grows to be very large and instinctively, for non aggresive reasons is going to want to herd your grandchild. These are big lovable clumsy dogs. It is extremely important that the household precedents are set now before the dog is towering over your grandchild. Basic obedience class is a great idea. I was lucky enough to have a neighbor that works with dogs professionally come over to work with Fred. I also intend to take Fred for some advanced classes too. There is also this book, Off To a Good Start, a Manual for Raising Your New Puppy by Mary Thompson, which is a helpful read. -Dawn[/u] |
| What great information!!
I think your first point is the most improtant of all. No matter how much we love and think we know our beloved sheepies they are DOGS not humans and should never be trusted alone with small children. Tasker is 11, and the most mild mannered of dogs you would ever want but still I would NEVER leave him with a baby or small child. What seems perfectly normal behavior for a dog could be deadly for a baby or small child. |
| There really is nothing wrong with a dog growling. This is the dog's only way of communicating that he is not happy. They are not people and so cannot talk, and cannot say "can you please leave me alone right now?" They use a growl for this. It is a warning, and we should actually thank our dogs when they growl. So we need to understand that....It is a communication tool that they use.
Picture these 2 scenerios: 1- A small child goes near a dog with a bone. The dog growls and the child leaves.. 2- A small child goes near a dog with a bone. The dog does not growl, but instead bites the child. Which is better? There is no other way that a dog can tell anyone or anything to stay away, or that he is not happy, or whatever. A growl is a warning.... Now it is up to us, and the dogs' leader, to ensure that the dog is put in that position as less often as possible. Either by manageing the situation so it does not occer, or by training the dog in a way that he does not feel the need to "warn"....and that is done by having the dog in a different state of mind. In the above situation it would be to make the dog happy that the child is around. Dogs have different threshold for what they can tolerate before becoming unhappy. And dogs also have different thresholds for when they excalate from a growl, to the next step, a snap, and then the last one...a bite...All dogs have these thresholds, and it is up to us to respect them. They are, afterall, dogs. If you punish a dog for growling, what you are doing is suppresing a very valuable communication tool. There will not be a warning growl, but the dog will go straight to a snap, or even a bite. I am not saying here that a dog should be allowed to do whatever they want. That is a whole other story. But if we are to treat dogs like dogs, then we need to lower to their level of communcation and understand them they way they are. It is impossible fro them to raise their level of communication and understanding to our level. There certainly are wrong ways to raise children and dogs..It is up to us to learn the "right" ways....and those ways are most often not the way it has always been done. An example would be putting the dog's nose into its poop to house-train. This used to be done all the time, and now we know how wrong it is. If you read current materials and speak to modern trainers and behaviorists you will learn the current methods. I doubt if you will find anyone with any degree of current doggie knowledge supporting the nose in the poop theory. Again, this is an example. My favourite of all books about canine behavior that is easy to read is "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson, and I would highly recommend you and your daugther read it. The title refers to the clash between the human and the canine cultures....what is different and how they can be so misunderstood. An excellant read...and great for reference to all kinds of canine behahavior. |
| I guess we need to agree to disagree, Nicole.
I have never owned a dog that had a problem with agression or biting, non have ever been allowed to growl at a human. Yes I guess if children are not supervised it would be better to be growled at than bitten. Your post seems to imply that your way is the "right way", sorry but there are lots of different philosophies on dog training and more than one may have merit. |
| I tend to agree with Ginny here....
I teach my dogs from the day they get here that people are in charge. I don't ever want a dog to think it can growl at a person. If a kid of any age wants to take a bone or toy away, they can, and my dogs are taught that young. My kids have also always been taught how to behave with animals, so it's a balance, however, it is in the dog's best interests to allow any human to take something from it at any time. A puppy that thinks it can keep it's "prize" may not willingly release that tasty electrical cord, which would be dangerous for the people and the dog. When they are puppies we practice taking things away and giving them back, or not giving them back. All family members. We put our hand in the food bowl, praise the dog, and then allow it to continue eating. If it is a toy, we take it away, if no reaction ensues, then lots of praise and return the toy. If there is a reaction ,we say a firm No and ignore the dog for a few minutes, keeping the toy or bone or whatever. They learn quickly. |
| Knowing we would soon have a baby, we never allowed/accepted any growling from our new puppy. When he was born, and Yuki did growl a few times when we put him on her.... We corrected the "growl" IMMEDIATELY!!!! NOT ACCEPTABLE. She got the picture after the second time, and has never done it again. Growling is not allowed when lil J is on him. We expect Yuki to LET HIM grab his hair (b/c it will happen), grab his toys/food, and lay on every part of his body. Anything past that (like rough petting/grabbing), lil J is corrected and Yuki comforted. My son even brushes Yuki DAILY, which means taking the brush and getting it really tangled in her hair. At 13 months, he knows the ASL sign for "gentle" and what "gentle" means around ALL our animals. |
| I'm a little divided here. With my first two dogs, I corrected any growling immediately. When attending puppy classes with Sophie and Sherman, we were told by trainers (and also by our vet) that growling was indeed a warning by the dog and a kind of safety--without it, the dog might go straight to bite, a very bad situation.
I understand there are two schools of thought, and I understand the logic behind each. We do correct Sophie when she growls, which, for her, is always a case of her wanting to be dominante. I feel it is neccessary to remind her that indeed, we are in charge. She accepts it, but would take over in an instant if I let her. |
I prefer to think that I like to do things "the dog's way", not "my way"  They often don't even come close....
Stacey, what you have described is what I meant in my post about having the dog in a state that does not bring on the need or desire to growl. Getting the dog used to things in a pleasant manner. I found 2 really good articles that should be read. They are long, but this is a hard concept to absorb, and I cannot do it justice. Both of these are well-written, with excellant examples.....much better writing than I could ever do! I don't know how to paste the whole of this text into a post... 
The “Gift” of Growling Why you should never punish a dog for growling. by Pat Miller http://www.dogicuts.com/index_files/growling.htm The top middle section deals with how the dog feels, when corrected for growling around children, and the possible end result. And this from a rescue volunteer's perspective... Littleton, Colorado, April 1999: Massacre in a high school. Angry students strike out with plans to kill 500 students, steal a plane and crash into New York City. The President says, and I paraphrase: We must teach our children to deal with their anger with words, not weapons. Meanwhile, American planes and soldiers are "bombing military targets in Yugoslavia." Humans are the most aggressive species on this planet... we're also the so-called most intelligent species. Yet, we expect our dogs NOT to vocalize their anger and fear... we expect our dogs, not so far removed from the wild, to behave in a manner totally counter to their nature. What is growling? Growling is the dog's way of telling those around her that she's frightened or otherwise threatened by something that's going on. Dogs don't have a refined verbal language to discuss their fears and anger. Dogs do have a wide range of body signals which alert other dogs to their mindset at any particular moment, but most humans don't speak "dog." We don't expect dogs to speak "human," but we expect them not to give us warning signals when they are afraid or angry. They DO give us warning signals -- flattening of the ears, raising of the hairs on their necks, a fixed stare, and many other silent indicators of the dog's state. And when a dog finally is driven to growl to express his fear or anger, we punish him for his "aggression." Guess what, folks, if we punish a dog enough times for growling, we'll get a dog that will not growl -- he'll just attack without warning (or at least without warnings that we can see). Then we have a dog that "attacked without provocation," a dog who has "never done anything like this before." Remember, YOU chose the dog. YOU decided you wanted a dog, and this was the breed of dog you wanted. YOU made the commitment to keep this dog for her lifetime. YOU committed to train the dog and otherwise care for her, to keep her healthy. I congratulate you. However, you cannot just take a dog home and put her into your home and expect everything to be perfect right from the git-go, especially a rescue dog that has come from unknown, usually less than ideal circumstances, with minimal socialization. Many times, these dogs have been through several homes and shelters over an incredibly short time period, before making their way to your home -- this has to be both frightening and demoralizing for them! Check out the article on Introducing Your Rescued Dog to Family Pets for ideas on how to make part of this transition a little easier on the dog. When presented with a situation that is frightening to the dog, she has two basic choices: fight or flight. We frequently remove the flight option (confining with a leash), leaving the dog with no choice: fight or be consumed by the fear object (or so the dog thinks). If the dog growls, it is meant as a warning; hopefully the person or animal that is a threat to the dog (and you can be a threat to the dog whether that is your intention or not) will back off. Jumping all over the dog ("correcting" her) may cause the growling to go away -- or it might immediately induce aggression. Whether you think so or not, neither of these is a good idea. As I stated above, you are taking away the dog's warning to you -- next time there may be no warning. Think about how you would feel, in the dog's place: pick just one thing that you're terrified of (come on -- everyone's afraid of something!) Then, put a choke chain around your neck, put someone else on the other end of it, and introduce the scary thing. See how long it takes for you to display aggression toward the person in charge of the correction. So what should you do if your dog growls at a child, a man with a beard -- or you? Well, basically ... nothing. So you say, "but aren't you teaching the dog that growling works?" Yes, that is so. However, after you do nothing in response to the dog's growling, you set yourself the task of preventing that response (growling) in the dog. You must make note of the situation that caused the growling (the person/type of person -- child, other dog; the location where it occurred -- the dog's crate, the front yard; was there food involved, a bitch in season, a lot of noise, a thunderstorm approaching, etc.). You then SET UP a situation (which puts you in control -- everything is planned) using the same set of circumstances, but not as strong. Try to understand where the dog's comfort zone is, and start desensitizing the dog just outside that comfort zone. For example, if the dog growled at (warned) a child who was approaching her, if you can, get that same child to help you out. If not that child, find another one of approximately the same size and sex. He should come, armed with cookies, into the area -- just not as close as he was when the dog became uncomfortable previously. YOU must watch the dog for signs of distress -- those mentioned above (ears flattening, etc.) -- and have the child throw a cookie or two toward the dog at your instruction (BEFORE the growling behavior occurs). The child may then leave. Do several of these sessions, allowing the dog to approach the child at her own pace (it's best not to have the child approach the dog during these sessions) -- with you watching the dog the whole time and rewarding for NONaggressive behavior. Note that this work should NOT be done on leash. Most dogs are not dog- or people-aggressive, but leash-aggressive. The leash traps them, making them vulnerable, and when they are at the end of the leash they are put into an aggressive stance -- standing tall, straining at the leash -- which makes them act aggressive. This work will best be done in an enclosed, neutral area -- a tennis court or someone else's yard -- where the child's safety can be preserved, i.e., there's a good escape route. You may have a long line on the dog if you are really uncertain of his reaction, or if there has been actual attack behavior, but you must not be holding it with your hands and there should be no tension on it. This exercise should not be done, by the way, with a dog that has attacked a person. That's a totally different situation, to be handled very differently. Also in desensitizing a dog to a fearful situation (or person, or dog), you can give them another behavior to perform BEFORE the person approaches. First, in a comfortable situation, teach the dog to sit, sit/stay or lie down, down/stay. Then when you are in a controlled situation, like walking your dog, and you see a person approaching that might induce an aggressive response in your dog, before that person gets into the dog's "dis"comfort zone, ask for a sit/stay. Engage the dog with praise and talk and other forms of reward until the person is gone. If the dog starts to display, lead her away from the approaching scary person before she has the chance to growl or start lunging -- these displays can become really overblown, once the dog learns that growling or barking causes the scary person to go in the other direction. (By your taking the dog away instead, you're building her confidence in you to keep the scary things at bay -- she'll be much more apt to look to you for guidance during scary incidents, rather than taking matters upon herself. You are giving her the option of flight, instead of taking it away from her.) Then go on about your business. As mentioned in other articles on this site, all the Good Things should happen when the problem situation is present, and all Good Things should stop when that situation no longer exists. This doesn't mean that bad things happen when it's gone, but that's when normal existence, nothing special, just matter of fact stuff, re-commences. Basic obedience will help a lot. Taking this dog to classes and otherwise exposing her to many different situations, people, other animals and places will help build her confidence and make life less fearful. This is a huge commitment you are taking on, but one that is well worth the effort. A dog in your life can bring you tremendous joy. Bringing a rescued Saint into your life is very rewarding, and knowing that you are giving this dog a loving home will make you feel really good. It sometimes is not easy, but after the initial investment of time and effort you will have a delightful companion to share your home with. written by Averill Ring, Maryland, DC & Virginia St. Bernard Rescue |
| If you GOOGLE "Should dogs be allowed to growl at humans" or "Dogs and Humans" you will find page after page of discussion and articles. The majority of which seem to support the theory that dogs growling at humans is not a good thing. With a few as cited above supporting the behavior.
Which takes me back to my original statement. There are a variety of theories of dog training, none 100% right and 100% wrong. As a responsible dog owner you need to read and educate yourself, then make training decisions that work for you, your animal and your family. Interestingly when I Googled the above statement (a few links below), in the first 10 pages (I did not go further) I could not find a single reference to growling being acceptable behavior. http://www.dogplay.com/Behavior/growling.html http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/topdog.htm http://www.happyk-9.com/dog-growling.html http://bulldogsworld3.homestead.com/socialization.html http://www.kerryblues.info/index.html?h ... GROWL.HTML So again, I think this is an issue of individual decision with each person making the decision that works for them. |
| Wow, I just wanted to say that I think both schools of thought can be right. At this time I am hoping that something I wrote did not insight this heated discussion. I am new around here and just throwing my .02. Personally, I prefer the methodology of Willowsprite and Ginny. Every dog is different though and what works for one dog may not work for another.
Fred has been a delight to have as part of our family. I have never had a situation where he has growled at my daughter, even in play. My dog is so mellow he does not care when she takes a toy. My furry baby, is actually protective of my toddler. We were at the park two weeks ago and at one point Hailey, my little girl, walked a little bit too far from the family. Although we were all watching her, Fred went chasing after her barking, as a means to prevent her from going any further. Now, I would defer to the the Willowsprite/ Ginny approach. But, at the same time I feel that the dog is entitled to have some spaces in the house that are sacred to only him. His crate is where he feels most secure, where all of his favorite things are, it's like his bedroom. (He does in fact sleep in my bedroom snuggled up on his own bed) His crate is actually in our family room. The only times that I intentionally crate him is if we are leaving the house to run errands or if I feel that everyone needs a break. At times if we are all in the family room watching tv or playing Fred will just wander into his crate of his own free will. |
The beauty of a forum is the ability to exchange ideas and thoughts. From those ideas each person needs to take what is helpful and useful. There is more than one way to "skin a cat"  |
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