If I Knew then what I know now!
Always a keen eater despite her diminuitive size I became concerned when she went off her food after vomiting a couple of times this week. Thursday evening she was looking a bit jaundicy round her eyes so it was off to the vet, Friday I got a phone call to say that it wasn't looking good, the liver levels were the highest they had ever seen, figures of 2720 and 5760 were quoted. The thing is there were really no symptoms to speak of before, she has always been a very laid back girl although she was becoming increasingly intolerent of loud bangs/fireworks etc., and her lack of wanting to canter off on walks had been put down to athritis, but she would give chase to our Jack Russell on occasion if she felt like it. Anyway, what I am trying to say is that lethargy is one of the possible signs of liver disease, the only way to diagnose it being through a blood sample, had I known this I would probably have taken her sooner instead of assuming it was because of arthritis. She has been prescribed Samylin and Destolit but the vet was VERY pessimistic. We have done a bit of research and just got some Milk Thistle for her and have contacted an alternative vet who is sending us more stuff and also suggested trying acupuncture. BTW I think your forum is wonderful..... Peter |
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I'm so sorry you are going through this, Peter  |
| I'm so sorry you are going through this, and I hope the meds help and she is feeling better quickly.... |
| I am so sorry to hear such a sad story. I do appreciate you sharing your experience with us. As the Mom of an older sheepie (11) I am always wondering what sort of problems will crop up, it helps to know what to keep an eye out for. |
| I really appreciate at this difficult time that you shared with us what your girl is going through so that others will know what to look out for. I was not aware that liver disease caused lethargy and shaky legs. It is really good to know. Did they have any idea what would cause the liver disease or is that just something that comes on with age?
I really hope she is able to turn it around. Very best wishes, Val |
| First, Peter, welcome to the forum.
Second, I am so sorry you are having to go through this difficult time with Molls. Having a senior dog myself (13), I fully understand. Please keep us informed! |
| Peter,
We lost our beloved Winston (OES) in 2005 to liver cancer. In our case it was caught to late and after a couple of months he had to be put to sleep so I am so sorry to hear that you are going through it with your sheepie. I recommend watching her for any swelling in the legs, and/or seizures. With liver disease they can throw a blood clot very easily. We even went the route of having blood transfusions for our sheepie. I hope you and your vet find the right medicine for your sheepie and please, please keep us updated on how she is doing. It is never easy when your sheepie gets sick. Big hugs to you and your family and to Molls. |
| Welcome to the forum.
I am sorry that you are dealing with this illness in your dear sheepie. It is tremendously helpful to others that you have posted this information. No matter how pessimistic the vet is I would never underestimate the strong will of a sheepie to overcome just about anything. Our Hannah had pancreatitus this year and SURVIVED what I found out later were pancreatic levels dogs usually don't survive. So just do everything possible you can for your girl and know she will do everything she can to overcome. Alternative methods are fantastic by the way. Keep us updated and if you need support. We know what it's like and it is so much easier to deal with when you know there are others that can relate. |
| Peter: I am sorry Molls and you are going through this.........she looks like such a beautiful sheepie girl. I hope she feels better soon! |
| Welcome Peter and big hugs for Molls, stay positive you need to do that for her.
Alternative and Holistic treatments work in well with conventional treatment also. Some vets deal in both therapies. Wishing you all the best with darling Molls and we are all here to support you through this time with Molls. |
| I'm sorry to hear about your girl. I was wondering if the vet told you how her liver may have gotten bad? You just don't hear about this kind of condition much with OES and I was also reading about how some dogs have contracted Hepatitis from drinking water out of toilet bowls & have gotten very sick. |
Hugs  to Moll. I second the comment from lisaoes, holistic care is a good option. You can find a doctor in your area at http://ahvma.org/. |
| Thank you all for your thoughts and best wishes, they really are most appreciated. Molls is looking a lot better, she no longer has a jaundiced appearance and she has her appetite back although strict controls are now on what she eats, she even managed to chase Piglet the Jack Russell for a bit!.
I don't know what the underlying cause is, I asked the vet if she should do an ultrasound but was told there was no point considering the result of the bloods - it just seemed that they thought it was terminal and in there opinion to find out why was "academic". I have been wading through loads of stuff on the net and it all looks very involved and complicated and it seems to me that the cause should be ascertained in order to treat her properly. In my wading though I found this ... evidently Sheepies are amongst several breeds that are pre-disposed to Porto-systemic Shunt or PSS, where the liver is bypassed and does not preform its functions properly, more info on this at http://lbah.com/liver.htm this has probably nothing to do with Molls but just thought I would mention it. Thanks again for all your help, I will keep you posted...........Peter |
| Peter liver shunts usually show up in this breed as youngster, congenital.
It would be extremely rare in an older one. Do keep positive, not all vets are correct with their diagnosis or advice, take it from me, a sheepie girl at 7 years old, cancer, prognosis at that time 6 months maybe more????? She lived till 14. I'd seeked another vet that was not so condeming and giving up on the situation. If you are not happy with what they said, then seek another one, preferably one with a More encouraging mind. Some vets just put things into the too hard basket.. JMO there. |
| Just thought I would let you all know that I took Molls back into the vet at the weekend to get her bloods taken again, they were most surprised at her condition, they couldn't believe it they really thought she was a gonner!
I now have copies of both reports and some figures are quite dramatic...bile acid: down from 827.3 to 42.5; T-bili down from 105.1 to 11.0; ALP down from 5760 to 956; ALT down from 2720 to 158; cholesterol down from 17.8 to 8.41 ( these units are all metric). Whilst not quite in the safe range yet it does look a lot more positive. As I no longer have anyone interfering with our lives, she now gets to lie where she wants (she is sprawled out in front of our coal fire just now) and she gets on the bed at night 
Took advantage of the good weather and went on a day trip on the Settle and Carlisle Railway as a treat for both of us!! |
| So glad to hear that Molly is doing better! Oscar gets a shaky leg every now and again, but he has blood tests every four months to check his liver as he is on prednisone. I will make sure and mention it to the vet on his next visit. Thank you for all of the info, and hugs to Molly! |
Yay!  |
Great that she is feeling better and what a lovely picture , thanks for sharing  |
| I loved the picture - I hope she keeps improving! Thank you so much for the information! |
| Hi Peter,
Thanks so much for sharing about Molls and I am so glad she is doing better. You may be interested in a book listed under Recommended Reading - The Natural Vet's Guide to Preventing and Treating Cancer in Dogs, by Shawn Messonnier. It is available from amazon.com for $10.85. Hopefully, Molls DOES NOT have cancer, and that is not what I am saying. Instead the book has some really good information on treating many types of ailments, especially a compromised immune system. Their are other books listed in the Recommended Reading (found under the Nutrition topic) that are helpful in finding the best food for a well-balanced nutritional diet. I just mention this because we have experienced problems with some of our dogs that have been helped with the right diet and the right vet. Good luck with your search. I am sure you will find the right thing for Molls. Give her a BIG hug from Sadie and me. Please keep us posted. Rose Marie |
| I am so glad there is an improvement in Molls, give your special baby a huge hug from me.
Keep us posted too as to how she is progressing. The book Mophead has recommended is well worth a read too, I turned to that side of things years ago with one of my sheepies and it helped a lot too. Best wishes Molls, keep getting stronger each day.  |
| I'm so happy for Molls! Thank you for posting about her condition.
My Buddy appears to be having the same problems (shaky leg, vomiting, high liver levels). My vet thought it was from the Rimadyl, but he's been off of it for a few days and just started vomiting again. Buddy has always had a shaky leg (well, both can get shaky depending on the day). I always associated it with his hip displaysia (severe). Maybe that is more associated with the liver functions. I'll have to do some reading on it... Good luck with Molls. Alan |
| Hi Peter,
So sorry to hear about Molly, my boys are sending sloppy sheepie kisses to your beautiful girl. 
I hope I'm not going to alarm you needlessly, but something about your post reminded me of something written by a member in Jan 2006. It may be nothing but nagged me enough so I did a search and found the post ..didn't read the whole thing but skimmed over it so I may be totally off the mark. Still there was something I remember reading way back then that sounded slightly familar to your situation. I guess it may be worth going over and possibily asking your vet if those things can be ruled out in Molly perhaps? Again I may be way off base and for that I apologize. Sometimes in a million in one chance it may be the thing that the vet had not considered, but may lead them on the right track. Please ask your vet if he/she has ruled out an Immune Deficiency Problem like AIHA or Thrombocytopenia. Will be sending positive thoughts Molly's way. Marianne and the boys |
| Hi - I'm hoping that this discussion will help me and others who may have to go through this. Our 8 yr old OES Charlie (female) was diagnosed with an acquired shunt over the past year - we have been through the ringer and back with her and are looking for anyone who has been through the same. It started several years ago with elevated liver enzymes - a liver biopsy showed nothing. Since then she and her Dad left her first Mom and have come to live with me, and I became concerned at how she suddenly became so 'arthritic' that she couldn't go up and down stairs, jump on the bed etc. Then the peeing in the house started. Went through several vets before convincing them the dog did not just have arthritis. Then we became lucky because our vet took on a newly graduated intern, who has not passed her boards yet - lucky because she is not an old 'i just vaccinate and fix diarrhea' vet yet. She became convinced Charlie had a liver shunt and she was right. Since then, we've had her on antibiotics to kill the bacteria that produce the ammonia and nitrogen that her liver is not processing - metranidazole (bad - she became ataxic - SCARY - and was hospitalized for 2 days while she detoxed), probiotics (acidopholus- worked for a while) and now she is on neomycin, which will probably make her go deaf, if the hepatic encephalopathy has not already done so. Anyway, if anyone has gone through this, or thinks they may go through this, please let's talk. I love my baby and I don't want her to suffer - |
| Although our dog is a welsh terrier he had at 5yrs liver trouble, had loads of blood tests and nearly lost him. eventually he had to have his gall bladder removed and tubes washed out. quite a large operation. the vet had treated him with samylin and destolit. He now is the age of 13yrs and been fine although just started showing showing high readings of liver bloods again. |
| Peter, Steel has a slight amount of what you are mentioning. For fear of sounding ignorant as if that statement hasn't already done so....He had a gastropexy done a short time ago and the normal everyday bloodwork showed his liver was way out of wack. Upon further investigation by a specialist it was found his levels weren't high enough to be overly concerned with but it was a long few days waiting for the results to come back from Cornell. He had no symptoms at all. He needs no dietary changes, no meds. She recommended a test every year just to make sure there are no changes but other than that he is fine. Also this could be good or bad, I happen to think it's good...because she was already in there she did a biopsy of his liver, looked and felt it and everything was normal. My info on the topic has faded but the second I started reading in your post about portosystemic shunts it all started flooding back - scary stuff. Your girl is beautiful so glad she is feeling a little better. |
| FWIW, our Bailey has had abnormal liver levels for 6 years. High enough that we avoid surgery and unnecessary medications, but not really affecting her quality of life. Though she is slowing down as she reaches 14. We've used Denamarin, 2 pills a day from the beginning. Research showed that is does better if given on an empty stomach, so we've given them at bedtime. They must taste bad, as she hates them. We've been forced to use pill pockets in the last month. I wish you the best. |
| Oh indeed, hindsight is a wonderful thing. I found this post on an Internet search for "diarrhea samylin" because I have a wonderful Boxer dog terminally ill with liver cancer. The first symptoms .. now that we have the hindsight .. were shaky back legs (not much, not all the time even now) and a tendency not to run around much. We had his back leaings checked out, blood samples taken, etc. but 'no fault found' as they say in the technical world. Six or more months on and a bout of lack of appetite and vomiting took him to the vets again. This time, they found he had retained a lot of fluid (we had noticed a little 'fatness' but that was all, and put it down to lack of exercise). They drained that (he was very sickly for several days, the first time we wondered about his survival) and started intensive investigation. Blood was NOT indicating any great problem; urine was a little off; he is such a tough dog that he was still being a Boxer (hard to keep all four feet on the ground at once!) and not really displaying any symptoms .. other than losing weight and muscle mass at an alarming rate. Eventually, even though his blood was only a little off, they opened him up for examination. The surgeon said that he'd never seen a liver so decomposed by cancer before Chemotherapy is not an option at this stage.With massive medication (Prednidale, Destolit/Ursogal, Samylin, Zantac and Tramadol for pain management) he has, much to the vets' surprise, lived quite well for ten weeks more. Each day is a blessing. He has given us three scares but bounced back each time. He is retaining fluid again and won't survive another operation. He's near the end now and I was crying over him earlier but my point is not to elicit sympathy (we have the support of friends who also think the world of him) but to hopefully add to the alert in the dog-owning world: if your dog has shaky back legs, stops wanting to run around any more, possibly starts trotting with a gait where his front legs are moving sequentially but the back legs are moving almost at the same time .. have his liver checked and if his blood is consistently off, even if not by much, treat those symptoms seriously. |
| I'm sorry you are going through with this, but thank you for the heads up. Each day with your dog is a blessing. |
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