Annie & Breeding
Here is my thinking...Before, way before we purchased Annie, I'm talking years, I read many books on OES's. I also read and researched breeding a dog. I've experienced the birth of puppies & kittens and helped deliver many. Right before we decided we wanted a sheepdog I once again read about the breed. So I was well informed before we bought her about her breed. I have been a dog owner for 30 yrs. and grew up with dogs from the age of 3 yrs. I always take my dogs to the vet for their vaccines and periodic check-ups. They all get groomed and bathed frequently. My oldest dog passed away at the age of 15 yrs. The second dog in line is 10 yrs., then 3 yrs., then Annie, 17 mos. I find no difference in Annie from my other dogs. She is well socialized with other animals and is in a house full of children. The only "behavioral" problem Annie has is shyness when we take her for a walk. She is shy with strangers and that is my fault I admit. I need to take her out more frequently in the neighborhood. From what I have read on the forum in the Behavioral section, OES's seem to have the same "problems" which is just puppy behavior that can and needs to be corrected. I do not believe that I need to "show" Annie to make her acceptable to breed. After much research into these "clubs" I find that they are somewhat egotistical. I don't need a ribbon to acknowledge that Annie's a champ. I believe that healthy puppies are in the hands of God, someone Higher than show judges. I am not being snippy here, I am responding to some comments which were sent to me. I enjoy watching dog shows on t.v., but I see no point in "sitting with my bottom" on a chair to see what I am dealing with. These dogs are highly trained, and most are trained by professionals other than their owners. Some don't even have the privilege of being a puppy and being playful. So, what I see in the "ring" does not impress me. Regardless if I breed Annie or my other 2, I would always make sure an application was filled out by the potential buyer. I would investigate the potential buyer and then I would take a day or so before I made a decision. I would also let them know that I would take the puppy back if it didn't work out. This should be common sense wheter it's a pure breed or mixed breed, young or old. I don't believe that breeding is to "supply my friends" with a dog. That's ridiculous! I looked up the Traits of Responsible Breeders vs. Backyard Breeders. This was very interesting and educational. I seem to have the majority of Responsible Breeder traits. I am "Into" dogs...even though I don't "show" or belong to a club, I am "into" dogs! I don't believe in competing for titles or certificates. This is great for people who are into this and that have the time to enter their dogs in this, but I believe that I am just as responsible as the "show" people. Don't misunderstand me, I think dog shows are a great hobby, but not for me. I strongly support rescue groups, HSUS, ASPCA, and my local shelter monetarily and time-wise. There is no way that a "reputable breeder" can convince me they don't breed for a profit. I cannot believe this, especially when they sell puppies for 1200.00-1400. Do you mean to tell me that they breed just to "create" the perfect dog? Come on now! I have never seen an ad for an OES for under 800.00, and I looked long and hard for one. I would definitely be skeptical of an OES under 600.00. I would raise the puppies indoors I work from my home and my dogs are with me 24/7. I feed my dogs Purina, unless otherwise the vet recommends something else for medical or special needs. I believe most all of these guidelines are common sense to any dog owner. If it's not then they shouldn't even own a dog. It seems like these clubs are some form of "secret society" that's impossible to get into. I could understand if I were to breed Annie with a totally different breed of dog, but all I wanted to do is breed her with another OES. I had no idea there were so many rules and regulations. As I said, this is my personal opinion and thoughts on breeding. I don't know if there's a Breeding for Dummies book out there, but you're not dealing with a dummy. Everything you mentioned is purely common sense. Therefore, Annie will be bred. 
Thank you! Diane |
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| I just want to say one thing before the fur flies. I can tell that your dogs are well cared for, but please get Annie checked out for hip dysplasia (x-rays), and eye problems, as well as other genetic issues before considering breeding her. These issues might not be overt or apparent at her young age, but she could certainly pass them on. There are never any guarantees, but this info would help to ensure that any puppies she might have would be as healthy as possible.
Laurie |
| I don't mean this to be offensive but, if you have it all figured out why did you come here and ask the question? Sounds like your mind is/was made up and our opinions are irrelevant. |
Well...it seems everyone can be as nice as possible and people still get offended 
Diane, I refrained from saying anything in your earlier posts, but I guess there is no harm now. I don't even know if you will come back to oes.org, but I hope you do. Despite the unwarm welcome you have perceived, this forum is a wealth of information regarding OES. In regards to this newest post...you say that everything everyone suggested is common-sense. Unfortunately it isn't....and that is why individual posters took the time to respond. Each of us have talked to many people both on this forum and off to whom this wasn't common knowledge. Many people decide to breed their great/lovable/cute/obedient dog on a whim...without consideration to anything else. In regards to choosing to breed Annie without showing or maybe knowing her full history...that is your choice. Good breeders who show their dogs do not usually profit from it (I use "usually" there could be someone out there who has). So much time/money/energy has gone into making sure their dogs meet the standard and are as healthy as possible that the costs are astronomical. They show their dogs to make sure they are the most ideal OES possible. That is the only way (at this point) to properly evaluate the dog. As far as trying to integrate into the show world or OES clubs to learn as much about the process and the breed as possible...I have no experience with that. If you have made attempts and were rudely rebuffed, then I am sorry. I guess it goes to show that just because they breed and show great dogs that doesn't make them nice people. I'm sorry our forum has offended you and hope you are able to take a deep breath and remain a contributing member. Please take the time to look around and absorb the knowledge that it can provide. |
| Many experienced people have piped up to offer their opinions on breeding. Many of them are people that do show their dogs or have bred and have been doing so for many years. The advice they give is advice out of experience. Dog shows aren't all about who's a champ and ribbons-- it's a way of having an impartial third party to check your dog over for conformation and judge it against the standard, because, after all, if you aren't breeding for the standard, why breed at all?
I know that you feel that you have enough knowledge to get started but no books can prepare you for hands on experience. Good breeders spend years developing sound breeding programs that carefully pick and choose mates based on their pedigree to avoid any inbreeding in the lines. Breeding a great OES is much more than knowing how to deliver pups. None of the comments that were made because anyone wants to keep you out of the breeding world, it was to inform you the right way to do it and invite you in, but in a way that will give you lifelong respect in the breeding world. Showing is SOOOOOO much more than sitting on a chair and watching things go on-- it's networking, talking to other breeders about anything from grooming to current health issues, looking at their dogs and giving each other advice and goals to strive for. The fact that you only see this as a waste of time that you need is most concerning because I think you're missing the entire point of standards for dogs and why they are in place. I also think you've made this "decision" entirely too quickly. I am not a breeder and I don't show my dogs but I do go to shows and know people in the show community, so keep in mind everything I'm telling you is from someone not "in the society." Just joining this forum a few years ago and learning more and more about the breed and breeding, my views on responsible breeding have changed dramatically. Now I find I cringe when I hear people talking about breeding their dogs that have no experience with the breeds that they want to breed and they just aren't seeing the big picture. You're right about one thing, the reputable breeders are a community. But if I were in your shoes, it would be a community I'd seek to learn from rather than going on your own. |
| I understand that you may feel like we have been
harsh or unfair in our responses about you breeding Annie. We are very protective of our breed and have seen and heard some very sad things resulting from poor breeding. There are several things that concern some of us (not trying to speak for the group here  )
Quote: Annia has had some behavioral issues we don't have enough info as to whether this is an actual behavior issue or a trainer issue - but you need to know which it is before you breed/ Quote: I didn't receive any medical papers regarding Annie, just her shot records and AKC papers. I was verbally guaranteed her hips and eyes checked out o.k. This is a serious concern. You really need to pin down some answers and speak to your breeder's vet - AND get everything in writing. Were the tests actually done, or is her verbal guarantee the only assurance - you must find out. Quote: but when it comes to me asking questions regarding Annie's line she seems to sway from the question. The fact that you yourself think she may be avoiding this is also suspect to me. You need to know a whole lot about your lines before you consider breeding. What testing was done prior to Annie's litter - and before that litter - what were the results? Quote: so many friends would like an OES, but I tell them they'll have to wait awhile. You said this yourself - and then seemed to take offense that we repeated it in following posts. I'm not sure you realized how that may have sounded to those of us reading it, but that is another issue. Quote: There is no way that a "reputable breeder" can convince me they don't breed for a profit. I cannot believe this, especially when they sell puppies for 1200.00-1400. Do you mean to tell me that they breed just to "create" the perfect dog? Come on now!
Actually a reputable breeder is always breeding to better the standard. And yes it is very expensive. While I don't think every OES is worth $1200-1400 - the good breeders will almost all tell you there is very little if any profit in breeding. That you seem to think we are all lying about this baffles me. Why would we tell you that if it weren't true? In one of your first posts you said you were looking for a family pet - at that time you said nothing about breeding. IMO - breeding is something you think about long before you buy the breeding dog. If you were considering it then, maybe you should have been looking for breeding dogs. Or maybe you were - but didn't mention it. While I understand your not wanting to show your dog, it is the best way to learn much more about the standard and why it is a good idea to strive to better the breed instead of taking a "family pet" and breeding with no standard in mind. This practice is what has led to the OES we are so proud of now. You don't have to belong to any "secret society" to breed, but the breed groups and show ring are darn good places to start. You say now that Annie will be bred - but only days ago you still didn't have any answers to some of your questions and some testing cannot be done before 2 years. Spend some more time reading here and maybe you will begin to understand our positions. We really are not trying to be harsh or mean, we just want your puppies to be the best they can be, healthy and bred to the OES standard. Most of us here are "into" dogs - we spend an awful lot of time talking about them here. Many of us would love to be breeders and some of us are. We have a ton of information to share with you. You came here looking for answers or help or just to read about like minded people with OES, and we have tried to help you - but breeding is a very serious issue with us. We have given you honest answers and if we sounded mean or harsh or like we weren't taking you into our secret society, it is only because it is that big of a deal. One thing to consider is that you said you were "in hell" just a few months ago with Annie - can you imagine that X5 should 5 puppies come back?It may be a worst case scenario - but it is a possibility. (and yes I realize you may not have meant hell ) You will do what you want - breed or not breed. I wish you the best and I hope every test comes back with highest results and that you find a perfect stud to comliment your Annie. But please consider everything that has been said, and please do the testing. You do a disservice to every puppy you sell if you don't. This is a wonderful group of people on oes.org. Some of the best people I have ever known I met here. We are only trying to help, and are only pointing out some things you may have not considered. Be patient and learn everything you can, these people have a lot to offer you. Shellie WOW! there were 4 more posts in the time it took me to write that! Sorry if I was repeating. |
| The single most important thing that I hope you'll take away from all of this is the need for health testing.
I hope you'll put off your final decision until you have Annie tested for the most common problems, hip dysplasia being foremost. Hips can't be tested until at least 2 years of age, so if you were verbally assured her hips are fine, your breeder was either unfamiliar with the problem or worse, was lying to you. A check for Degenerative Myelopathy in other dogs in her line would be nice, rather than have your Annie's offspring become slowly paralyzed from the back forward. Nothing is worse than having a dog who should live to 15 or 16 become incapacitated at 8 and incontinent and put down years early from either hip dysplasia or Degenerative Myelopathy. The fun thing is that the front half is doing just fine; they still have a love for life and a desire to be playful as they are being put to sleep. |
| Bravo Ron! Short, sweet and right to the point - that is
really what I was going for. (I missed!  )
Diane - if nothing else re-read Ron's last line a few times Shellie |
| One other thing that I want to mention is that no one here thinks the Champion show dogs are any better pets intrinsically than the rescue dogs or dogs with questionable lineages. Some of these 'pooer quality' dogs make the best and most loving pets. The fact that show dogs ARE show dogs isn't what makes them 'better.'
When people keep mentioning the importance of show dogs, it is because those dogs have been judged to be ideal specimens...which reduces the risk of health or temperment issues later on. But even that's not guaranteed...I can't remember who wrote it, but I read earlier that one of his Champion dogs sired several pups, and very few of those actually turned into champions themselves... There's a good chance that if you breed Annie you'll come out with a great litter of dogs without problems (especially if Annie turns out to not have any problems herself), but there's also a chance that if either Annie or the mate have hidden problems the litter could inherit those problems too. My dog Barney turned 2 last September. He is an awesome dog, a stubborn dog, but has the best personality...BUT he has bad hips. And he's SO YOUNG! It is very sad to see him try to get up on some days...it takes him several tries and just last month his doggie daycare sent home a note saying they had to give him extra time outs and cushions because they noticed the pain he was experiencing with his hips. Barney has 'papers' and comes from 2 parents with 'papers'...but he did not come from a reputable breeder and now the poor puppy is going to have to pay the price... So hopefully all these posts won't offend you, but will give you things to think about that maybe you hadn't before, or maybe you had...and that, at least me personally, I'm not against breeding, I just want to avoid situations that are preventable that happened to my poor boy. |
| im new and abit on the outside still but i can see where she is coming from...
there IS a tendency to be very degrogitory and offputting when people come here and say that they want to get into breeding and such .. i got abit of that myself.. NOW I am sure that most dont mean it to come across as such.. but it does.. rather than fend off future breeders shouldn't they be pulled into the fold and helped and nutured.. instead of told they shouldn't.. thier are too many breeders ...then we turn around and here how thin the bloodlines are and left to scratch our heads.. there are several people out there dedicated to the breed but NOT a member of the "registered" groups.. sometimes to their own faults these groups tend to put people off rather than pull them in.. they have begun to breed exculsivity among the ranks and to be honest.. it is peeking out in this breed as well.. I know dogs.. was raised around them.. know them inside out.. but was abit shy on this one.. but i wanted to learn and grow as i had fallen in love with it.. instead i got the feeling that i was going to be shunned and labeled a byb or worse ( which i think is wrong as some people lableded as byb are undeserving of this tag ).. I and others might not have the years n years of experince others do with this particular breed.. but that doesnt mean we are ignorant of it.. just need some pieces filled in and abit of support and GENTLE guidance.. the best way to make a person do it is to tell them they shouldnt .. If the OES society as a whole wants to improve the breed as a whole then it really needs to pull in those on the fringes and help nuture them into the society and help to stregthen it as a whole rather than keep it exclusive as it does feel to be now.. Sometimes the fishbowl needs to be seen from the outside to see what it really looks like.. and right now.. those of us on the outside trying to get in see a wall.. few cracks.. but harder than hell to get in.. I know everyone here has only the best intrest of these wonderful guys n gals at heart.. but sometimes you CAN love a thing so much you inadvertiantly cause its demise.. i am JUST saying is all.. =/ |
| My favorite line from this post was :
Quote: I always take my dogs to the vet for their vaccines and periodic check-ups. They all get groomed and bathed frequently.
Wow.  Aren't these expected from all dog owners?
I think at times people are too nice here. IMO, Guest has already chosen to breed her dog, and posting this new thread is more about disparaging the OES community that she is unwilling to join, contribute and learn from than to gather proper information and experience. No where in her post does she mention why she wants to breed her dog. My guess, just by reading it, is to breed a dog that has no historical health papers or pedigree and make a quick buck. Being a dog owner for 30 years and currently having a great dog doesn't make it OK to breed. Guest, you are right, some people will be offended by your response. Myself included. IMO, if you proceed with breeding your dog without a full medical history and making every effort to extract as much information out of the OES community (not just here at OES.org) you may not be a "backyard breeder", but you certainly are not a "reputable breeder". More like an irresponsible breeder. |
| Knowing about dogs, and loving dogs does not mean you should be BREEDING dogs.
Many of us here are strongly opinionated because we have seen first hand the high financial emotional and physical price the owner and the animal pay when breeding is done by well intentioned but uninformed breeders. You may be offended by the term "backyard breeder" but IMO anyone who breeds a dog without following all the many suggestions made in this and other posts (genetic testing, knowing lineage, proviing that the animal meets breed standards by showing and being judges etc ) IS A BACKYARD BREEDER. Both my OES and my Maltese were purchased from wonderful, kind, well meaning BACKYARD BREEDERS. At the time I was ignorant of the process and uneducated about so many important issues related to buying and owning a purbred dog. I thought "not buying from a Pet store" was good enough. I fervently wish I knew THEN what I now know, I would have done things very differently. As a consequence BOTH my dogs suffer from genetic problems that have cost me a fortune in Vet bills and much heartache. I do not regret one dime I have spent on my pups but it sure would have been nice to have had them much healthier and free from PREVETABLE problems. So I won't apologize for any of the KNOWLEDGEABLE and INFORMED opinions expressed on this forum from me or any other poster. If you are offended TOUGH, the lives and health of very precious animals depend on responsible decisions by breeders. |
| i dont think its a matter of that hon.. i think its more of a matter of how opinions on this matter are put out there..
Its all in this combative style which is excessivly off putting... as i said.. wouldnt it be better to pull in people just on the fringes and "groom" them accordingly.. rather than fend off everyone.. unlike the guest I am adamant about learning and growing and such with this breed.. but have come under fire alot myself for my choices.. difference between her and I is that i choose to stay and continue to learn and maybe fight my way in.. im a stubborn cow what can i say.. NO.. i wont get everything right all the time.. what person does.. even "reputable" breeders get it wrong half the time... but i know that I personally only have the best intrests for this breed as a whole at heart... you all have quized me and fussed at me and tried to change my mind .. maybe i picked the wrong breed cause of my hunting dog background.. i dont know enough.. how will you deal with this.. what about that.. well all these things i am learning .. no one person knows everything at the moment of their conception.. its a learning process.. help those of us that truely WANT to do right by this breed .. by pulling people in you can more effectivly weed out the bad breeders and help those that show potential.. <--wasnt born to be a public speaker so forgive me if i muddle things abit.. =/ |
| I would like to again post this link. It is a code of ethics written by a breeder I found by chance on the internet (I was looking for information on hip certifications at the University of Guelph).
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~smulley/ethics.html This breeder is not an OESD breeder, but it is universally applicable and is a good read for anyone considering breeding as well as for anyone buying a puppy. I am just a pet owner, not a breeder or a member of any exclusive society. I'm not an AKC member (I live in Canada) or a CKC member. When researching breeders we attended shows and were wholeheartedly welcomed and encouraged to show in the future. We decided showing wasn't for us but still enjoy attending. Breeders at the shows were happy to answer any questions we had. If you are looking for a mentor to help you start a breeding program, a show is an excellent place to meet a reputable breeder who can mentor you. There are also some breeders on this forum and some might be in your area. |
| I have been going around collecting other people contracts that they use and in the process of getting my own put together.. i ALSO know it will be severl years before i am able to enter into the breeding stage..
but as for showing.. this i do intend to get into.. and have also been gathering applications for club memberships down in this area AND obedience corses offered here as well... was always taught to get as much info as possible and take it from there.. NOW purchasing said pups is alot harder than before.. gues its cause I come from the gun dog background and to be honest.. in that community its ait different as compared to this one.. i could pick up a champ gun dog through old connections for pocket change.. but i didnt want to do that..but i digress.. the point of my posts on this subject where to show that people here tend to take a combative tone against newcomers looking to get into the showing/breeding or breeding .. and that this in itself was counter productive.. instead shouldnt this community be pulling people IN.. not keeping them at arms length or further is the point i was attempting to make.. told ya.. muddled it didnt i.. O.o |
| Tanks,
Everyone tries to as nice as possible, but reckeless breeding is a very sore subject here. In Diane's original thread I thought the responses were nice or at least civil. Part of the problem may have the overwhelming amount of information, but it was all intended in the in best way...as Ron pointed out in his first post to Diane. |
| No one is having a go at anyone wanting to breed, they are only stating their opinions as to what should be done and why, before taking that step towards breeding.
Reading all that people have posted I can't see where people have been off putting. They are just trying to advise what the correct steps should be, because in the long term prospect of it all, taking the right path leads to a healthy, happy puppy that will give a prospective future owner many years of joy. Just read some of the heartbreaking situations that people have had on this forum, also they are advising what a responsibilty and advising an ethical/responsible policy to follow before breeding. I applaud your enthusiasm tanks and you are taking the correct steps and I wish you all the success in the future and when the journey of knowledge is attained and you do breed that first litter, I know it will be well worth it, the end result will be that you have done all that is correct for the breed. Best wishes for your journey and with your new little girl.  |
| I think the problem really is people who come and ask questions and then disregard the answers from this diverse group of oes owners, hobbyists, enthusiasts, breeders, handlers and showers, and rescuers, even when the answers are unanimous and consistent!
They are not looking for answers, they are looking for reassurance and concordance for their already made decisions and when they don't get it, they feel like they're being attacked. When they've made good decisions and are reinforced, then the members here are brilliant! I've seen it a hundred times here at the forum. Here's what I don't get: Someone who has JUST had a horrible experience and had a puppy from a breeder who made a very bad choice and delivered a puppy to them at 6 weeks who got very ill and died, then goes out and buys another puppy from another breeder who isn't "in the fold because all of those in the fold people are clearly idiots". You think all of this advice comes to you from us so that you'll go out and pick any breeder because you liked what they say to make a sale? I just don't get it. You come to us with a deathly sick dog and we all pour out our hearts to you with real sympathy and understanding, and we tell you how to reduce the risk of getting (or breeding) a sick puppy or a dog who will be disabled in the future, and then you just completely ignore us? I just don't get it. I hope your puppies and dogs are healthy and loving members of your families and in the case of Annie's BYB, other families down the road, but no amount of wishing nor any of your complaining and whining that you're being disrespected is going to change the fact that you two are NOT doing the right things in almost everyone's opinions, except your own. Good luck. |
Ron wrote: I think the problem really is people who come and ask questions and then disregard the answers from this diverse group of oes owners, hobbyists, enthusiasts, breeders, handlers and showers, and rescuers, even when the answers are unanimous and consistent!
They are not looking for answers, they are looking for reassurance and concordance for their already made decisions and when they don't get it, they feel like they're being attacked. When they've made good decisions and are reinforced, then the members here are brilliant! I've seen it a hundred times here at the forum. Here's what I don't get: Someone who has JUST had a horrible experience and had a puppy from a breeder who made a very bad choice and delivered a puppy to them at 6 weeks who got very ill and died, then goes out and buys another puppy from another breeder who isn't "in the fold because all of those in the fold people are clearly idiots". You think all of this advice comes to you from us so that you'll go out and pick any breeder because you liked what they say to make a sale? I just don't get it. You come to us with a deathly sick dog and we all pour out our hearts to you with real sympathy and understanding, and we tell you how to reduce the risk of getting (or breeding) a sick puppy or a dog who will be disabled in the future, and then you just completely ignore us? I just don't get it. I hope your puppies and dogs are healthy and loving members of your families and in the case of Annie's BYB, other families down the road, but no amount of wishing nor any of your complaining and whining that you're being disrespected is going to change the fact that you two are NOT doing the right things in almost everyone's opinions, except your own. Good luck.  |
| Nobody on this forum will support a backyard breeder, and Tank, and Diane, you both are heading in that direction.
That is why you will not be supported, and trained and nurtured here. If someone came and was interested in being mentored, and joins a club, and works toward doing it "responsibly", as educated and well respected breeders here will avise you, then we will be happy for you. But this is really not a place to learn how to breed. There are other places and forums you can go to. We are a bunch of OES loving people who are sad to see how some people want to use thier pets to make money, with little regard for their well-being or the well-being of thier off-spring. Diane has had many litters of dogs and kittens, so appears to know how to fill up the shelters already. I, personally, am truly saddened and will loose sleep over this for many nites....  |
Bosley's mom wrote: I, personally, am truly saddened and will loose sleep over this for many nites.... I have also been losing sleep over all this crap on the forum lately... several members who ask for advice, don't even consider the replies, and only seem to want to contribute to the demise of the breed. It is so stressful and upsetting, maybe I care too much.... I don't know.... |
Ron wrote: I just don't get it. I don't either Ron. I have been on several dog forums and this is the friendliest, WARMEST, most welcoming group I have ever been a part of. The level of knowledge and expereince represented on this forum is far higher than I have ever experienced on a forum. Opinions are strong, but isn't that the POINT of a forum. As far as "drawing people" in, POPPY COCK. Being up front and honest is neither rude or unkind. It is absurd to think that we should molly coddle or not express honest educated opinions for fear of offending something. The opinions expressed by people on this forum are repectful and pretty up front. I am actually a bit suprised at some of your comments Tank, I think folks here have been exceptionally concerned and responsive to the horrible exerience you and your family just went theough. If nothing else you should walk away from that with a renewed appreciation for the difficulties faced by a responsible breeder. |
lisaoes wrote: I applaud your enthusiasm tanks and you are taking the correct steps and I wish you all the success in the future and when the journey of knowledge is attained and you do breed that first litter, I know it will be well worth it, the end result will be that you have done all that is correct for the breed
Ooops typo error Meant to say....
I applaud your enthusiasmn tanks IF you are taking the correct steps and I will then wish you all the success in the future. |
| i will NOT become a bad breeder and this is what makes me different.. Cause i will not rest on my laurels nor those laruels set down before me.. i will continue to strive and be the best at whatever I endevour to do..
i am not a shirker and i shall prove myself.. you watch.. |
Tasker's Mom wrote: I am actually a bit suprised at some of your comments Tank, I think folks here have been exceptionally concerned and responsive to the horrible exerience you and your family just went theough. If nothing else you should walk away from that with a renewed appreciation for the difficulties faced by a responsible breeder.
i was attempting to play devils advocate to a point.. perhaps to my own undoing.. and i DO appriciate all the support and such i got here and i have always highly held reputable breeders in high regard.. hence my desire to prove myself as worthy... |
Tanks wrote: i will NOT become a bad breeder and this is what makes me different.. Cause i will not rest on my laurels nor those laruels set down before me.. i will continue to strive and be the best at whatever I endevour to do.. Well, that's news to me. In our conversations I didn't know, or I missed it, that you were planning on breeding this dog you just got. You're getting your foundation breeding stock based on a week's worth of research? You need to get strong lines in the background of the dog not strong lines from the breeder's mouth.i am not a shirker and i shall prove myself.. you watch.. |
| Tank,
I believe in actions not words. It is one thing for a person to SAY they will be a good breeder and another to actually become one. You are at the start of a long journey, my suggestion is that it would be far batter for you to sit back and learn from folks here than to alienate them by being too defensive or trying to play devils advocate. The kind of breeder you or anyone will become is evidenced only by the pups they produce and if you are in fact doing it the "right" way your fist litter of pups is a long way in the future. So sit back and start reading, this is a great place to learn. |
| i never said i was going to use Bell to breed.. Bell is my connection and through her i want to learn the dog and its quirks and possibly show her.. and even train her in agility..
YOU all assumed i was going to use her to breed.. if i led anyone to believe she was for breeding without proper testing then i am sorry.. she is my START into showing/and maybe agility n such.. breeding as i said will not be for a few years more down the line.. ie once i have learned and gained knowledge with the breed.. HENCE why i wanted working stock.. that is why i am here TM.. to try and learn those little pieces of info books cant teach you |
| Diane, I wonder if you are taking pleasure on all of this passionate emotion that you stirred up on this forum?
I am just amazed by some of the comments on this thread from Tanks & Diane. Tanks, I can't believe you think that people were condemning Diane on her other post. We were giving her so much guidance about the best way about learning about the breed/how to go about breeding. Especially Lisa's post - it was dead on & she has lots of breeding experience. It's too bad that we didn't sugar coat our answers exactly to your expectations. Clearly the both of you just don't get it. That's too bad and Tanks, and with all of the welcoming & guidance you got from this forum, I really am so sad that you didn't learn from your tragic experience with Ursa. I truly hope that your puppy buyers do not have to go through the same horrific experience some day as you did. I TRULY HOPE Tanks that you step up to the plate like you say you are going to do to become a "reputable" breeder. Diane you obviously have lots to learn. I'm glad that you read books - I'm sure you know everything now about breeding. First let me point out that the birth process is called WHELPING!! Secondly, if you have a "shy" OES please let me point out that that is VERY UNCHARACTERISTIC OF THE OLD ENGLISH SHEEPDOG BREED!! Here is the exact description of the breed's temperament: An adaptable, intelligent dog of even disposition, with no sign of aggression, shyness or nervousness. I truly hope she is shy because she wasn't socialized properly which is a whole other story. If she's "shy" because of her breeding then that's a really great thing to pass along to your pups. At least we'll know who the puppies are coming from when new people come to complain about it on the forum. Sorry for me not being tactful. I took the time already to outline suggestions which you totally disregarded, so I have nothing to lose since you're going to just go out and irresponsibly breed your dog. I wonder where you will find a stud dog?? Advertise in the papers?  |
VerveUp wrote: Tanks, I can't believe you think that people were condemning Diane on her other post. We were giving her so much guidance about the best way about learning about the breed/how to go about breeding. Especially Lisa's post - it was dead on & she has lots of breeding experience. It's too bad that we didn't sugar coat our answers exactly to your expectations. Clearly the both of you just don't get it. That's too bad and Tanks, and with all of the welcoming & guidance you got from this forum, I really am so sad that you didn't learn from your tragic experience with Ursa. I truly hope that your puppy buyers do not have to go through the same horrific experience some day as you did. I TRULY HOPE Tanks that you step up to the plate like you say you are going to do to become a "reputable" breeder.
i didnt not say they condemed her.. i said that she might have taken it as combative.. as i said.. i was trying to play devils advocate.. as put out there that some people might take it as such instead of being constructive.. i KNOW that i will not be ready to join this breeds breeding groups till many years down the line once i have worked within the circles and put myself in there working n doing things... not till have have learned everything there is to learn about this breed and how it works both in show and on ground.. never did i say Bell was going to be bred.. people assumed i was.. i said bell was going to help me into the OES scene.. I KNOW that before i even think about breeding Bell ( IF i ever do and tbh i hadnt planned on it but thanks for people assuming i had) that she would need through health testing and a well suitable mate equally tested in order to hopefully achieve a proper littler.. but i NEVER ONCE suggested that was Bell's purpose.. I HAD planned on breeding Ursa.. but after all that we went through and all the learning i did here afterwards i told myself i wouldnt do that this time around.. that i would start at the begining and work from there.. see i did learn.. unfortunatly people jumped to conclusions about me and Bell's purpose and attacked me.. as i said.. i will prove my worth.. |
Tanks wrote: as i said.. i will prove my worth..
Thank you. I think everyone assumed you were talking about Bell since you are talking so much about breeding now. I do apologize for my harshness, I truly do feel bad for what you went through with Ursa. I just want that to NEVER happen again to someone |
| Tanks, I too am realitively new to the board, about a year. My Chauncey came from a recommended supposedly ruputable breeder. He's wonderful, would pick him over any dog still. However, we recently found out his sister has had bilateral hip replacement at 10 mos of age. Read back over my posts, he has had his moments that we have worked through. But I am his FULL time mom, and I have the time and "most of the time" the patience to deal with and correct it. We still have a way to go. If I had to work full time, still had kids at home, and the demanding volunteer life I once had....we could not dedicate the time & effort that Chauncey requires. His medical history and pedigree looks okay, the breeder provided all the requirements that the AKC recommends. They had 5 bitches and one male, Chauncey was bred by a male they purchased stud rights to from TN, to enhance their lines. So I think like you, their hearts are in the right place, however the knowledge base isn't perhaps what a breeder should be. But they were still back yard breeders with limited knowledge and I'm sure in it for the $.
As far as the response you feel you have received from the people on here, I must make comment. They are the friendliest, most helpful, knowledgeble group I have ever found. The information you've recieved might not be what you expected or wanted to hear....but valuable none the less, IMO.............Kathy |
VerveUp wrote: Tanks wrote: as i said.. i will prove my worth.. Thank you. I think everyone assumed you were talking about Bell since you are talking so much about breeding now. I do apologize for my harshness, I truly do feel bad for what you went through with Ursa. I just want that to NEVER happen again to someone and niether would I.. hence why i KNOW that i will not be ready to breed for several more years down the line.. As i said.. i was mearly attempting to give an alternative view on things.. =/ A old fella once told me something.. start at the start.. work from there... not all breeders know a good dog and not all good dogs are in the the hands of a breeder.. This man bred champion labs and judged and showed them as well... we are talking Crufts man.. not some Joe Blow.. he had faith in me and that encouraged me to no end.. Bell comes from OES that herd for a living.. how much at the start can I get for a herding breed? Breed her.. i hadnt even thought about that at all.. all I wanted was to learn her.. watch her grow up with this family.. enjoy her.. and MAYBE show her.. heaven forbid. someone has to start somewhere.. but as for breeding her...i KNOW I am not ready to do that yet.. there is still much for me to learn about OES's.. people should get to know someone before you jump to conclusions about them.. thats what i have been TRYING to do here.. learn about breeding/showing and OES in general yes.. breed her as soon as she comes into season.. NO..cause there is so much to learn.. and i want it right so what happened to us doesnt happen again.. =/ |
| Tanks and Diane - I think it is really a matter of
interpretation. If you read it in the spirit in which it was meant (at least by me- not speaking for anyone else) The grilling or testing you may have felt was my feeble attempt at trying to get you to think through some of the things you may not have thought of. There are many what-ifs and what would-you-dos to consider. Our rescues and pounds are filled with dogs who's breeders didn't think enough. Tanks - good for you that you know you aren't ready - I'm not either. Good for you that you want to learn more before starting to breed. I'm so sorry for your loss, and I'm sure it gives you more insight as to why we are so passionate about breeding. Quote: the best way to make a person do it is to tell them they shouldnt ..
I can hardly think of a worse reason to breed - accept to make a buck Shellie |
| If you know gun dogs so well, why not breed them instead of OES?
There are enough problems in the OES gene pool that plague even the top breeders in the world. This is not a venue for amateurs. Now that you've bought your "show prospect" dog from another questionable breeder, don't be surprised when you are snubbed by show people. Will you be blaming them when you learn your dog isn't up to standard? |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: If you know gun dogs so well, why not breed them instead of OES?
There are enough problems in the OES gene pool that plague even the top breeders in the world. This is not a venue for amateurs. Now that you've bought your "show prospect" dog from another questionable breeder, don't be surprised when you are snubbed by show people. Will you be blaming them when you learn your dog isn't up to standard? Cause gun dogs do not apeal to me like the OES does.. it is what i choose.. why did you choose the name of you kids? Or the color of your car? or the place of your marriage... OES is a dog which i love and wanted to work with.. hopefully by the time i AM ready to venture into breeding.. i will no longer BE an ameteur.. i will have learned from the others.. i wont be a pro.. but to be honest.. who is? I never claimed nor did the people i bought her off claim she was show quality.. but i do see a spark in her.. but i wont know wether she is up to snuff till her and I start our training and learning... IF she turns out to be a good show dog then i will show her.. if not i will have at least learned the ropes and will still own a wonderful dog.. i dont blame others and make wild comments.. i leave that for other folk to do.. i state what is in my heart and from experince and fact.. fact is.. I am learning.. fact is.. i know i have a long hard road ahead of me... i take none of this lightly and fight hard for what i beleive in... and strive to better my knowledge and understanging of the OES..why would i be snubbed for working hard at that? |
| Wow! I never imagined so many responses!
I would first like to reply to BOSLEY'S MOM: I NEVER wrote that I had many litters of puppies & kittens. I did say that I helped deliver them. This does not mean that I, personally, had these animals in my home. So, NO, Bosley's Mom, I am not filling up the shelters. Now I hope you can get some sleep. I would feel terrible if you lost any due to me. Now, EL GATO, from looking at your picture and the one you have in your profile, you seem to have issues. IMO. To everyone-else. I actually "Thank you!" for your comments and advice. I will make sure that Annie is properly tested. I would never put her in any danger or her offspring. There is a difference in the way you say things and the way they come across. It is very difficult to determine this over the internet. I will talk more to the breeder where I got Annie. Does your opinions change my mind? Somewhat. I still have my own, but I have plenty of time to look further into this. Everyone get a goodnight's sleep and enjoy your sheepdog's. Diane  |
Diane wrote: Now, EL GATO, from looking at your picture and the one you have in your profile, you seem to have issues. IMO.
What an unkind thing to say  , I guess I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your were trying to make a joke? |
Diane wrote: Now, EL GATO, from looking at your picture and the one you have in your profile, you seem to have issues. IMO.
I think Dwight Shrute might have to call all his fellow Assistant to the Vice President friends and discuss this over a couple of Nog-a-sakes. Would I have less issues if I had a cute picture of my guy wearing sunglasses and a beret while sitting under the Eiffle Tower as my avatar? Two points: 1) That avatar is not of me. I look more like across between David Hasselhoff while wearing a speedo and Magnum PI (with mustache). 2) Can you really trust a man with a purse? Do I have issues? Yes. But none I need to bring up here. Do I stand by my original post to you? Yes. You are irresponsible if you breed your dog without using the OES community for advice and guidance. |
Her thinking that was you in the avatar had me rollin' 
Good luck in whatever you do Diane 
(still laughing) |
| I have an idea, Tanks and Diane, why don't to volunteer with one of the rescue groups and after you have done this for a while, lets talk again about breeding.
Us rescue people pick up from the streets and shelters what you back yard breeders dish out. We are here to pick up the nasty, matted and sick sheepies that people bought from you, people that had no idea about the breed. Oh, I hear it all the time, "did not know the dog would get this big" or "all that hair" "He knocked over the baby" OES pups are so cute but grow up into large dogs that need training and are hight maintenance dogs. We pick them up with mange and Heartworms, people just dump them like poor Marcus, this boy was dumped in the heat of the summer in LA. The volunteers here on this list send money for the vet bill and fostered this boy and now he is in a wonderful home. We all work together for the rescue, that is why nobody here likes the word BREEDING. I owned dogs all my life and worked as a vet tech for 16 years, but I still would not breed. Breeding is a lot more than putting boy and girl together and hope for the best. We did 44 rescues in 2006, the north oes rescue did over 100, that is just two rescue groups. Why breed if there are hundreds of wonderful sheepies out there waiting to be rescued and the unlucky ones are put to sleep. What a thought. Ingrid |
| Tanks- I am glad you love the breed and are learning about it, I really hope you stay on the forum and keep us updated with Bell!
I think Ingrids advice is great, if you really love the OES breed you will be doing them wonders by taking in a foster or helping to transport. I guarantee you will get just as much satisfaction (if not more) and there really is no danger involved! |
| you are talking to a person who drove 6 hours to rescue roughly 20 hermit crabs.. who stopped a busy 4 lane intersection to rescue a kitten that someone had thrown out of their truck window as they drove past me.. rescued dogs ranging from pure bred Collies to down right ugy mange ridden mutts. Speant thousands of dollars throughout her years patching them up and either making their last few days as comfortable as she could or finding them happy loveing homes to go to.. Dogs, cat, hermit crabs, fish, centipedes.. they have all traveled withme at some point in time. Every animal we currently own or i have EVER owned, baring our newest addition, was a rescue.. that cat.. still have him... have a rescued dog we got in ENGLAND.. she is family.. we dont abandon family when we move.. we go.. she comes too.. no matter the cost..
bealges that people have moved off and left to starve.. English springer spaniels dumped in the middle of no where.. Labradors threaten with death cause they werent good enough.. mutts walking in starving at my place of work... hermit crabs left to die in extreamly unhealthy enviroments cause no one bothers to read up on how to properly care for them.. stray cats.. OOO piegions.. resuced them too.. lets see.. shall i list every animal i have ever rescued in my life so that i might prove my worth. I have worked with a local animal society in informing them of bad "practices" that a pet store was using.. ie puppy mills... bad record keeping ..etc.. with the help and info I gave them they were able to sucessfully shut the place down and sucessfully prosecute some of the people involved.. i have spent countless hours voluenterring at local vets taking care of the sick and injured animals there.. donated time and money and resources..never asked for anything ever in return.. i have stated countless times that if and when i do start a breeding program it will be in the best intrest of the breed as a whole and wouldnt be for several years to come. I resent being infered as a byb when in fact the only thing i have ever bred was myself to my husband ty very much.. all this was something I had planned long down the road after i had gotten further into the OES world and learned all i could and gained as much knowledge as I could and only then would i be selective and work to steady and stem a declining breed so that others might share in and possibly do like i have before and gone to schools or preschools and held "lessons" on proper care n such inspiring further generations.. will i stop rescuing.. no.. that is something i do every chance i get ..But being in the world of showing/breeding has ALWAYS been a dream of mine.. sat listening to the handlers tales as the spoke to my grandparents or reading their mails about peoples new champions or how well one did at a hunting trial.. watching dog shows and having contests with my dad about which dog was going to win.. arguing about why that GS was better to standard than another.. or why was that lab entered his heads to out of proprtion.. and i wont let anyone ruin it cause they think they know me after a few posts.. i have done done alot more than the thimble full of examples i have given and i could go on and on.. but at this point.. i dont think anyone is really listening to me.. not really.. just casting asumptions upon me now.. PLEASE get to KNOW me before you make accusations at me =/ |
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