Hoping to breed my sheepdog.
Happy New Year Everyone! I hope the beginning of this New Year brings you and your Sheepie's many sloppy kisses and furry hugs! (and less muddy paw prints on your kitchen floors. My sheepdog, Annie is now 17 mos. old. We are thinking of breeding her after her 2nd birthday. Actually, we are interested in raising sheepdogs. Before we begin to do this we want to be fully informed and educated regarding the entire process. I understand that there are people out there that do not agree with this...breeding that is.) I am not a backyard breeder. I want this to be known before I continue. I just want to know when and how to go about looking for a stud and the proper procedure to do this. I do know how to deliver puppies and immediate care for them. One more question... Why do AKC members look down on people responsibly breeding full bred dogs? I am confused about some of the reactions I've heard about and experienced. Thank you! Diane |
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| I'm glad you're looking for info on how to do things in a great way. There's lots of experience here in the forum!
Be sure to read around and use the search link to scour the forum for resources, there's lots of posts on the tests necessary and the costs of breeding. You'll also be wanting to look deeply back into the lines of your girl, to see what health issues may be in her line-- this is one of the reasons that a dog from a "responsible" breeder is important, because they have already done a lot of this research and should be able to pass the info along to you. A dog from another source may not be researchable, and therefore may not be the best candidate for breeding. I'm SURE others will be stopping in with their opinions, too! Keep in min d they are ALL opinions, including mine, and please assume that anything written was not intended to offend. Assume the best intentions!  |
| Thank you for your response Ron!
In the next few months I will be researching Annie's lineage. The "breeder" we bought her from stays in periodic contact with me, but when it comes to me asking questions regarding Annie's line she seems to sway from the question. Granted, we only keep in touch through e-mail, so maybe she does just forget to answer these questions. I didn't receive any medical papers regarding Annie, just her shot records and AKC papers. I was verbally guaranteed her hips and eyes checked out o.k. She was a very nice lady with both parents on premise. Can I go online at AKC and find out Annie's line? Annia has had some behavioral issues, but she's getting much better. She's an awesome family member and so many friends would like an OES, but I tell them they'll have to wait awhile. 
Thank you so much for your advice, and I will definitely be doing extensive research on "my girl." Diane |
| Hmmm, that's a little troublesome to me, that she's not answering.
I know you love your dog -- I have loved both of my rescue dogs that came from less than reputable places! However, if you're going to get into the lifestyle-changing profession of raising sheepdogs, and given the fact that you won't know the qualtiy of your first breeding for two full years after they're whelped, perhaps you might think about investing in some champion-line dogs for your breeding foundation? |
| Whooops I missed answering your question.
I am not the best person to ask baout how to research a dog's pedigree or their ancestor's medical history, nor the passing along of which genes happens through which sex of the parents. I can barely ermember how to type my own name!
There are some researchers on here though... |
| If Annie's breeder actually is being evasive about Annie's lineage I would take that as a warning sign.
Be diligent with the breeder and let them know of your intentions to breed. Request proof of Annie's parents' hip and eye certifications - don't take their word for it. Knowing Annie's history first is very important. You can look up the breeder's kennel name and Annie's parents names on this website (assuming Annie's from the USA) and find out a little bit about her parents. If Annie's parents have had their hips and eyes tested and certified in the US it should be in this database. I think you can also find out about lineage too. The Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: http://www.offa.org/search.html |
| P.S. In that database you can search the first part of name which for the dogs' official registered names will be the name of the kennel. |
| I agree with Ron that if you truly want to be an ethical, responsible & reputable breeder that really should learn more about the breed from the ground floor. I'm not sure where your location is, but if you are in the US, purchase your next pup/dog from one of the Old English Sheepdog Club of America's breeders in your area. Your breeder will act as your MENTOR. Start showing your dog with him/her, learn all you can about grooming & the breed standard including any of the health problems that might arise with the breed. Your breeder mentor should be with you every step of the way and will help you do the necessary HEALTH TESTING for your dog to ensure that she will produce HEALTHY PUPPIES.
Everyone loves their own dog of course but thankfully not everyone breeds them. Concerns for me are that your breeder is not answering questions for you about the background of your girl. Plus it is very concerning that you mentioned behavioral problems. What are they exactly? You as an owner are dealing with these problems maybe to remedy them, but if the behavioral problem is passed down to puppies, even with more severity, do you have enough confidence that all your future puppy owners can deal with the problems the same way? Do you plan on taking the puppies back if the future owners cannot or won't keep them? I truly hope you consider very deeply all the "what ifs" before you make this decision. also, if the behavior problems you mention are aggression issues are you aware that this breed has had a reputation with aggression issues in the 70's & 80's? The breeders today have painstakingly been trying to breed wonderful temperaments. I hope you consider what the consequences would be if this becomes overlooked again... |
| Why do you want to breed your particular girl?
A good way to get started in the breeding world is to find an experienced breeder with a bitch you like and see if you can work together to produce a good litter. Go to a few local dog shows - check out the 'inventory' and find the best quality bitch and mentor that you can! This way you will automatically learn how to be discriminating in your choice of mate, you will learn what it takes to get a mate that will produce quality puppies, etc. A lot of good pups tend to come from people who show, because they are always striving to better the breed and then test (in the ring) if they are accomplishing their goal. Also, you can check out with your own eyes traits that you like and don't like about potential mates. You can be very choosy and do the best thing for your girl. Also, if you were to work with a mentor, you would be able to observe all the testing and everything that happens before, during, and after a litter without paying the expenses the first time around. 
I hope this gave you some suggestions. |
| My first advice to you is to get to know the breed, that is by joining an OES Club, sit your bottom on a chair and attend Health Seminars on the breed as well to know exactly what you are dealing with in the form of the Health issues this breed can have & learning as much as you can in relation to the breed. Show your dog also, gain a title of Ch., WHY???, to assertain most importantly that you have a good quality example of the breed to start with. Your breeder sounds a bit Ify too if there is no answer. You need a mentor to give you an indepth analysis of the lines your OES has and if a breeder won't remark on that WELL surely something is real SUSS there!!!!!
We all love our dogs, and we all think our dogs are the best in the world, which they are for the love and devotion they give us, but really there is a lot of groundwork that needs to be covered before any thoughts of breeding. If you put in the ground work and do all that is right for the breed, even if that means waiting, learning, showing, looking to mentors for guidence and starting with another OES then it ensures a better future for you and later down the track the babies that you produce. Most Kennel councils also have strict codes of ethics, one question is, are you going to be responsible for the entire outcome of pups produced by you ie. if a problem comes up, are you going to take that dog back into your household, are you also going to help cover the costs of vet fees for the owner of one of your pups or take back into your care IF the dog you produce suffers from say HD, blindness, deafness, epilepsy, thyroid disease etc.etc.? Some of these problems don't show up until after a few years. If someone rings you years down the track and the situation in the household has changed and they can't keep an elderly OES bred by you, are you going to as a responsible person take back or help re-house that older OES? Thats what is required from anyone responsible bringing pups into the world. Responsibility lasts for that entire lifetime of the dog that you produce. Sounds intensive, all too much? Well they are steps required and demanded from ethical people breeding OES. Otherwise you might as well be a Back Yard Breeder contributing to problems in the breed. Put in the effort first, by doing all the right things to start with, no one is saying you should or should not breed, we all have to start somewhere, but doing all the correct things first is the way to start. Sounds Harsh but breeding is not just for supplying friends with an OES there is more to that when producing puppies and so much more that can and does go wrong. One more comment, Temperment is just as important as Health issues as well. And before you start anything as Sheepie Heaven mentioned you want copies of all of Annies SO called Health Clearances of her parents. Then Annie has to have all that done too, 2 years of age is the earliest for most of these tests and they cost a great deal to have done as well, before you even know if the results are good enough to breed from, if the results are not up to a certain standard then what do you do then? Don't breed for the sake of the welfare & wellbeing of the breed!!!. Also same applies when using a stud dog, both potential parents must come with all the health clearances also.. Have a read of this thread, also google on the forum and you will get a lot of information and how to start to do the right thing by this breed. http://www.oes.org/page2/10219~Breeding.html ButtersStoch has just posted a link too in another part of the forum, Ethical Reputable breeder vs Backyard Breeder, here is the link and well worth reading the comparison.
http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html |
| My two cents...We got our female Stella Blue and immediately fell in love with the breed. We got our male Maxwell Silver Hammer almost a year later with the thoughts of breeding. My plan was to research the whole process and proceed with as much knowledge as I could gather.
At some point in my research, I came upon the fact that statistcally, a certain percentage some litters of OES will see the inside of a pound at some point in their life. I stopped right there. I had no desire to contribute to that statistic. The thought of these beautiful dogs behind bars just because I wanted Stella Blue to have puppies sickened me to no end. I love this breed with all my heart.....Stella and Max are my children in dog suits. |
| Your two cents worth is very well put, hopefully it might make people think a bit more. |
| Your two cents are worth a MILLION!!!
We seem to live in a society that looks at dogs as disposable, they send them off to the pound or abandon them at the first bump in the road. If more people took animal raising as seriously as child raising there would be much less need for rescues and humane societies |
I agree with you completely, Tasker's mom, except that an awful lot of people are no more responsible about the child rearing...Our society could use an overhaul on BOTH!  |
| Well yes, you do have a point there!!! |
| I really don't know why people can't be spayed and neutered to prevent bad breeding. |
ButtersStotch wrote: I really don't know why people can't be spayed and neutered to prevent bad breeding.
A friend of mine who is a "dog person" and has 2 young adult kids said during their teen years she often thought if she had only known, she wouldn't have repeated that breeding.  |
Willowsprite wrote: ButtersStotch wrote: I really don't know why people can't be spayed and neutered to prevent bad breeding. A friend of mine who is a "dog person" and has 2 young adult kids said during their teen years she often thought if she had only known, she wouldn't have repeated that breeding. ROFLMAO............................. If only you knew HOW MANY times in the past year I have said, "If I knew then what I know NOW I would have stuck with DOGS" |
| Hi, Well I am also going to add my two cents. From personal experience I would STRONGLY recommend that you think very seriously about breeding and decide how thick skinned you are. I have bred 5 litters of puppies. It has been a learning experience for me and I didn't do everything right from the beginning. We are in the process of finishing up our OFA certifications, thyroid certifications and eye certifications. We had a crisis with a puppy this winter and it has been devastating. The family is heartbroken and thinks I am some sort of an animal. I was devasted for the puppy that we raised and loved in our home and my name has been smashed to pieces down to being put on a list somewhere, as a person not to buy puppies from. I read the other posts and see you have been told to possibly buy a puppy from a reputable breeder. I'm not sure who gets to decide you is reputable, I think that means the only people who are allowed to breed are people who show. Good luck buying a puppy from one of them. I have 13 adopted children and it was easier to adopt my children than it is to find a show person who will sell you a puppy, not to mention the fact that they charge exhorbitant prices and then want to be able to have total control of the dog that you purchase and they want to own half of all litters of puppies. I to think it is important to do your research, to get all the health checks and to be as responsible as is possible but..........where are the pups that are going to be family pets going to come from. There are a world full of people who love there dogs, treat them wonderfully and give them good homes that cannot afford to pay 1500.00 for a puppy. I think we do a disservice to families who love and want to add an oes to there home by keeping them out of reach because of price. I don't show my dogs, can't you have a quality dog if you don't show? I don't get it. |
Molly wrote: I don't show my dogs, can't you have a quality dog if you don't show? I don't get it.
The reason you show a dog firstly & gain a Ch. Status before you breed that dog is to assertain that the dog is as close to the breed standard as can be, before using that dog to produce future generations. The judge is an independant third party evaluating your dog and seeing that it meets most points of the breed standard & is a good quality specimen as close to the breed standard to start with (we all think our dogs are fantastic, but to have a 3rd party go over your dog in an objective way is a learning point too, you learn a lot about any breed when showing, the good points and the points you can improve on for the future generations)
Also being a member of the breed club is just as important, breed clubs are there to learn all about the breed you choose to be involved in.
I am sorry for your bad experience, yes breeding can be such great joy and can also bring huge heartbreak too. |
| Diane, I am curious why you have breeder in quotes in your second post. I bought 4 dogs from my breeder and she ALWAYS was willing to talk to me about anything, anytime. Do you have the feeling this breeder is being evasive for a reason? If so run the other way, there are many wonderful breeders out there. |
| Hmm.
Always a thorny issue, especially with those people that are in the dog business. Diane, I'll send you a pm. Perhaps I can be of assistance in answering your questions. John |
John Arnold wrote: Hmm.
Always a thorny issue, especially with those people that are in the dog business. John Who is in the dog business?, I am certainly not, diane asked what is required to breed. The steps that should be done before breeding. Maybe not all, but it is a start firstly for anyone interested in breeding, to get to know the breed, what the breed can carry in relation to health issues & what can be lurking in the background, especially if it is a first ever experience in owning an OES. No one has ever said to her you should or should not breed. The breeder she got her girl from is not answering any of her queries. No health clearances have been presented to her in the form of documentation, she was told from the breeder "verbally" that they were done on the sire and dam of her girl. Another poster gave her advice where she can look up at least one lot of proof that the sire and dam were screened on the OFA register and even see if that was done at all. Maybe things go differently in your country, but I always say to people, join the breed club firstly, get involved and learn all that you can about the breed, before taking the next step. |
| John, I hope you read the other thread too so you can see how this person totally dismisses the initial support & resources we gave her before you contact her. It's one thing to breed and do everything to insure the health of pups but this person obviously does not have that in mind. She has temperament issues & the general health of the lineage is questionable. |
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