The cost to buy a dog is getting outrageous!
I know I am new to this site and what I am about to say may get me shunned but like most I do not believe in puppy mills at all, but I believe that the cost of a dogs are getting outrageous. When a Dog can cost more than a good used car there is something wrong. It is becoming that only the rich can get a good dog to most of your standards. If you think about it if a female has the Avg of 10 to 12 pups per litter and a person sell them for the avg price of $1500 to over $2000 a pup, that is a avg of $15,000 to $20,000 per litter. That is more than a lot of people make in the US and Canada make a year. If you want to stop puppy mills and pet stores from selling dogs make them more affordable for people to buy them. That is my 2 cents. Everyone can love a dog but only some can afford one. Don't get me wrong, I am not one of the poor people out there, but I do feel for the people who would perhaps like to provide a wonderful home for a dog but is unable, do to the price and have to turn puppy mills and pet stores, only to have there dog probably end up sick or to need medical care that they cannot afford. |
|
|
James&Chevonne wrote: Hello
I know I am new to this site and what I am about to say may get me shunned but like most I do not believe in puppy mills at all, but I believe that the cost of a dogs are getting outrageous. When a Dog can cost more than a good used car there is something wrong. It is becoming that only the rich can get a good dog to most of your standards. If you think about it if a female has the Avg of 10 to 12 pups per litter and a person sell them for the avg price of $1500 to over $2000 a pup, that is a avg of $15,000 to $20,000 per litter. That is more than a lot of people make in the US and Canada make a year. If you want to stop puppy mills and pet stores from selling dogs make them more affordable for people to buy them. That is my 2 cents. Everyone can love a dog but only some can afford one. Don't get me wrong, I am not one of the poor people out there, but I do feel for the people who would perhaps like to provide a wonderful home for a dog but is unable, do to the price and have to turn puppy mills and pet stores, only to have there dog probably end up sick or to need medical care that they cannot afford. You may not be "shunned" but I for one am not thrilled about the analogy of a living creature being compared to a used car. How many people actually keep a car for 10-14 years, anyway? If you think the selling price of a puppy is 100% profit to an ethical breeder you're very mistaken. Very few actually make money from their breeding programs. They do it because it is their passion. I do OES Rescue and most of our dogs are owner-surrendered. Some were purchased from questionable breeders for huge sums of money. If people want something badly enough they will pay the price. Please don't feel sorry for the people that cannot "afford" an OES from an ethical breeder. As long as puppymills and backyard breeders are operating, our Rescues will have plenty of dogs needing homes. |
| I think if you can't afford the price of the dog, than you really can't afford to own the dog. The upkeep of animals is expensive and the initial cost is just a drop in the bucket. The expenses of caring for my three dogs is as much as a lot of people's monthly rent payment on a small apartment-- and that's not even adding in emergency things, like Clyde's surgery last month! It's a small price to pay for what I get back from them.
There are plenty of needy animals in humane societies and rescues needing homes that people could get much cheaper and they may find it easier to care for the dog without the additional cost upfront. |
| I was not trying to compare a puppy to a car, but trying to give a sense of value. I am full aware of rescue programs. I myself rescued an OES about 9 years back and we loved Max with all our heart, but he ended up with very bad hips and a very bad skin problem. He had to be put down after two long years of trying everything and the vet finally told us that it was the best thing to do for him. We also rescued two mutts and we loved them, but like any rescue you do not know what you are walking into. It can make what normally would be a good family have a very bad taste in their mouths for having dogs again. It can be very hard to explain to a small child why her pet has to go to heaven because they are sick or mean. I lived thru it. That is why we got Prince from the person we did after talking to about 6 different breeders. I am not putting down anyone by any means. I am very glad people are breeding good dogs and I hope they still do.
Jamie |
| First of all, James and Chevonne, don't feel like you might be shunned. This forum can have some strong opinions on things, but I also think that people are interested in hearing what other people thing...at least I know I am. And by just being a member, I think we can all assume you love dogs, which is really what has brought everyone to this site in the first place, so please feel free to voice your thoughts and opinions...
I think it is VERY important to set a standard for breeding good quality dogs and I know that price doesn't seem like it should be a factor, but it is. I think a lot of people start to get into problems when they advertise they are 'discount' breeders and that instead of buying a sheepie for $1000+, you can buy it from us for only $600. They seem to be trying to either be going for the people who can't afford the higher going prices or they are implying that good quality sheepdogs (or dogs in general) don't need to cost a lot of money to be a good pet. James and Chevonne, I can see where you were coming from, I think. But pet store puppies are not any cheaper than from a breeder, and actually may be more expensive. My Barney was born in a puppymill in MO and was sold to a pet store, where he was purchased for $1500. If people can't afford a dog, they do not go to a pet store to find a bargain. Barney is only just over 2 and is already exhibiting signs of some pretty bad hip problems, which will just cost us a lot of $$ in the future. When I was growing up my family got 2 Bouvier De Flandres from the humane society and they were living terrors, so I also understand how difficult it is to adopt a less than ideal dog...we ended up having to return them after about 3 terror filled years (I'm sure it wasn't that bad, but as a 8 year old, I was terrified of them!!). |
Quote: I am full aware of rescue programs. I myself rescued an OES about 9 years back and we loved Max with all our heart, but he ended up with very bad hips and a very bad skin problem. He had to be put down after two long years of trying everything and the vet finally told us that it was the best thing to do for him. We also rescued two mutts and we loved them, but like any rescue you do not know what you are walking into. It can make what normally would be a good family have a very bad taste in their mouths for having dogs again.
This is exactly why well bred dogs can be so expensive. So much money has to go into the testing to prevent exactly the medical problems that your dogs suffered!!! Also the cost of care for the breeding dogs that otherwise the breeder would be selling at a loss. I would never consider breeding a money making prospect. However, many do breed dogs without the testing and preventative measures. They end up with a crap shoot litter- which in the litter will survive and which might end up with hip problems or other serious medical issues, or in a shelter or rescue because the temperament was poor, or the medical bills were unmanageable... and then the vet has run out of options and the dog must be PTS. Good breeding includes caring about the outcome for the life of the dog. Sure, dogs from reputable breeders end up in rescue - but many more dogs in rescue come from BYB or mills. A reputable breeder is going to either take back a dog or re-home it, but does the work in the first place to make sure they are selecting good permanent homes for their pups. I agree that if you can't afford to buy the dog - you can't afford to take care of it properly. There is always the chance that the dog will need medical attention - not to mention regular checkups and shots... just like people. If you aren't prepared for the expense, what do you do? My point is this; many things can be avoided (or at least the risk can be lessened ) with good breeding. Yes, well bred litters still have the occasional problem, but the point is to limit these problems, which cannot be done without testing. Testing the breeding pair and making sure they have the best care costs a lot of money. It isn't a money maker, not if it is done right. I'm not sure I understand how making puppies cheaper will help get rid of puppy mills. I am totally lost on that one. I know I got off topic - I think this thread was about something else entirely. For those reading me repeating myself yet again- sorry. I seem to be beating my head against the wall on this one the last few months. Shellie |
barney1 wrote: James and Chevonne, I can see where you were coming from, I think. But pet store puppies are not any cheaper than from a breeder, and actually may be more expensive. My Barney was born in a puppymill in MO and was sold to a pet store, where he was purchased for $1500. If people can't afford a dog, they do not go to a pet store to find a bargain. Barney is only just over 2 and is already exhibiting signs of some pretty bad hip problems, which will just cost us a lot of $$ in the future.
I think this is an argument for a lot of people to justify buying a dog from a pet store. I have a friend that was going to buy a pup (not OES) from a pet store because she said "that she couldn't afford one from a reputable breeder". I did some homework on the breed club, went to dog shows, and met a local ethical breeder that sold her pups for $500, when the going rate for these dog at pet shops was $850-1,000. All you need to do is do a little research. The bottom line is as long as people continue to buy pups from pet stores, we will continue to have puppy mills/commercial breeders. Cut off the demand & the supply will eventually be gone. Since I have no experience breeding, I am hoping one of the breeders will come on to chime in how much it actually costs to do breeding in the most ethical fashion? Most OES of A breeders only breed their bitches from age 2 to 6. Only 1 litter per year, per bitch so on an average, only 5 litters total if she does in fact get pregnant during heat seasons. Questions like how much it costs to show and finish a bitch/dog ($2,000-$20,000), how much for hip & eye tests, blood work, vaccinations, food, grooming, stud fees, complications during birth/whelping? Also, some breeders spend all of that money up front only to find out that the bitch might be infertile or that something is wrong with the bloodline and never get any puppies after all of the money is spent up front. |
| Deb you have covered an awful lot and I would personally hate to add up the costs over the years.
To mention too that having a litter the breeder also usually keeps one or two pups themselves to continue on their lines, so no money there. Just to give you a perspective , first time mating a bitch. Tittling a bitch, show entries, grooming supplies, travel expenses to shows (petrol if driving, plane fares if flying). I would hate to add that up. Running into the 1000's of dollars over the years. Feeding top grade quality food over the years, well hate to imagine that cost. Keeping up to date with normal vet expenses, heartworm, immunisations, worming, and if needed flea control. Expensive for anyone. Testing, eye screenings, hip/elbow gradings, thyriod blood tests. You are into over the $1000 dollar mark to have all the appropriate tests done and a clearance issue. Registering the bitch with the Canine Council, then fee also applies once the Ch.Tittle is approved. Couple of hundred dollars. Registering a breeders prefix. $190.00 then an annual fee each year to keep it current. Use of a stud dog, $1000 plus as dog has to have all the health screenings and clearances too before any thoughts of using it. Pedigree analysis, no monetry value on studying that, but can take a long time to check if it is going to compliment your breeding program. Importing a stud dog to Australia, $20,000 plus from UK or USA, this is because also a dog goes into quaranteen kennels for a couple of months and prior testing is done O/S and here to make sure the dog is disease free before being allowed into the country. Can't afford to do that, bringing in frozen semen from Overseas a few thousand dollars for a few straws. Mating a bitch, natural mating, just the stud fee, assisted mating by AI a few hundred dollars, using frozen semen and implanted surgically, including the cost of using the semen and the surgery, well we are into 1000's of dollars then. Ultra-sound to confirm pregancy around the 4 week mark, another few hundred dollars. X-ray at 8+ week if expecting a small litter or large litter to confirm exactly how many is in there. add another $100 + Heated Whelping box, $350.00 plus. Whelping bitch, vet expenses, normal whelping not so expensive, but bitch needs to usually be seen by a vet after whelping. Problems in the whelping, might need an injection to help contractions, or even worse a ceaser if there is complications well we are back into the many hundreds of dollars again and starting to get over the $1000 mark. Puppies born, off to the vets at day 2 or 3 for tail docking and dew claw removal and a check up. So many more dollars per pup. Bitch has a problem and can't feed her pups well add $100's of dollars more for hand rearing. Registering the pups, seperate amount per puppy. Here also every pup is micrchipped at 6 weeks of age. 6 Week first immunisations also. Again into the hundreds of dollars at this age. Care and feeding of bitch and pups, well many hundreds of dollars. Puppies leave home at 8 weeks plus with a puppy bag full of food and instructions, priceless. Show puppy may be run on for a few more months also, that is not unusual as the breeder wants to see if the development of it is worthy for the showring as a lot can go wrong there, might be a nice pup but the mouth goes or the developement of it is just not good enough for a show dog. I been there with no litter as the end result, one of my girls was implanted with frozen semen and it did not work, well into the thousand of dollars there just for a mating that way. Not to also mention all the expenses leading up to this to try to have puppies to go on with. Next step for me was bringing in a bitch from the same lines from overseas and so the journey continues and so does all of the above expenses. So you can see why a pup from a ethical breeder is more expensive then from a BYB or pet shop, an awful lots of expense, research, health checks etc goes into producing quality, not quantity. Good question too as people often wonder why pure bred registered dogs are more then what can be brought in a Pet Shop or a BYB. Hope this gives you an understanding of why.  And believe me no good ethical breeder makes any profit out of a litter, even a large litter they are many of hundreds of dollars out of pocket, they do it to continue on the breed, the lines they like, the passion and love they have for the breed and to ensure the next generation is a betterment then the prior generation and as healthy as they can possibily be.  |
I guess over the past couple of years I've become passionate about people breeding healthy dogs with good temperaments. I don't breed and never have... I have 6 females that are all spayed- 4 OES (2 purchased and 2 rescues) and 2 mixes that were rescues. But after adopting Kaytee I wonder how many people would have gone to the extent Kaye did to get her to an adoptable age. Three of my sheepies came from a "backyard" breeder and they have wonderful temperaments and are pretty healthy though Darby does have allergies and low thyroid... we've managed with medical care. I guess my questions to all breeders who are in it for the money are...
I've been poor so I KNOW what it's like. I also know what it's like to want a dog but not be ready to financially afford one. Possible medical bills should always be a consideration in whether to adopt or wait. If someone really wants a dog but cannot afford one, how about fostering dogs for the local shelter or rescue? This way you have no responsibility for medical bills but still have dogs to love. With the millions of pets destroyed each year, one could actually make a difference in the lives of a few dogs. If someone is going to breed, I feel they should take steps to minimize the possiblity of health problems with, at the very least, pretesting of the breeding adults and following the pups they produce. Maybe in an ideal world... Jaci |
| The cost of a well bred dog will always raise passions on both the breeder's and purchaser's sides. And both have legitimate claims for their point of view.
Several of the posts to this this thread have begun to enunciate why a well bred dog costs so much. Veterinary expenses are always high and if there are any complications they become almost boundless. Infrastructure and basic breeding expences are also very high so the "rule of thumb" saying $1500 income, $800 profit for each of 10-12 puppies can be very mis-leading. It also assumes large litters are the normal situation but the facts are otherwise. So those who are buying are asked to consider the "direct fixed costs" of breeding and then try to consider what might be termed as the "indirect costs" such as showing the parents to championship, health checks, breeding programme development, kennel reputation etc. In the case of a difficult breeding or a small litter, breeders often have direct costs loses. All that being said - and indeed much more has and can be said to justify why well bred dogs are so expensive - buyers have a legitimate complaint as to the cost of a dog. Here is a case in point. Some months ago I was contacted - through this forum - by a person seeking information on OES availability and purchase costs in our area. This person had several children, a middle class income with home, food, transportation expenses etc, commensurate with their income with "some extra" which they felt should have been adequate to bring a dog into their family. I responded by advising this correspondent as to who I considered were the reputable breeders in Ontario and then somewhat further afield, the availability of new litters as far as I knew at the time, what the common prices were (pet versus show - limited versus unlimited registration etc) and what one could expect for their monies in terms of breeder support, community support, contractual obligations and mitigation of health problem risks. This correspondent, whilst seemingly passionate about getting an OES - had done research and had clearly read a lot on this forum - simply could not afford the common $Cdn 1,500 price of a well-bred pet OES. I exchanged a couple more e-mails with this correspondent presenting the option of Rescue but that was declined and as far as I know no dog was ever purchased, certainly not from a good breeder. This exchange once again brought a long standing question back to the front of my mind. Have we, the OES community as a whole, done right by either this prosepctive community member or even the breed as a whole when costs are so high that we appear to be a self protecting and exclusive club? (While we are NOT a self protecting and exclusive club I can understand why those investigating the breed for the first time might come to this conclusion.) This question applies to breeders, owners, exhibitors and even non-owners who simply love and promote the breed. Puppy mills and BYB exist for one reason and only one reason - there is a demand for their product at their price point! A large portion of the population loves dogs and of them a sufficiently large number act upon their desire for a dog in their family that they outstrip the quality dog supply and price point. Few can simply open up their chequebook and pay any price no matter how well we can educate them. Even if they can afford any price being asked of them, our intrinsic human nature seeks "the best deal" and "instant gratification". As such they will often purchase the less expensive version and will not wait for as long as a couple ofyears and go for the "next day deliver dog" which is almost invariably a BYB or puppy mill. I won't propose that we provide a "Cadillac" product at a "bare bones Chevy" price when we breed OES or any other breed for that matter. But can we not do a little more to enable more people to enter into our community if they have a genuine interest, love and capability to care for these dogs? Let's be honest, even from an impeccable breeding not every puppy of a litter is going to be a conformation or performance discipline champion, so must they always be "full price" or could we not somehow make other payment arrangements? I don't pretend to have the answers to this but I will go out on a limb and say unequivocally: If we do not do better at bringing these people into this community and supporting them and their dogs, the puppy mills and BYB's will continue to breed to their market demand without regard for the well being of individual dogs or the breed as a whole. Rescue will continue to be overwhelmed, the breed's general reputation for poor health and temperament will continue to be propogated. And in a worst case scenario, animal rights activists such as PETA will derive more case studies of poorly bred dogs with health problems and inexperienced owners "discarding" their dogs to rescues and rescue dogs being re-homed a number of times as arguements to further their campaign to eliminate pedigree dogs and ultimately all pet dogs and pet species. Comments for your thoughts and reply. |
| Could the breeders work at changing the scale and price differential between pet and show quality -- say something like $2,500 for show quality only $1,000 for pet quality?
Isn't something like that already in place? |
I agree with Carl's post. We had to work extremely hard to raise enough money to buy Bingley, and I think we were only able to do it because we were renting at the time. We now own our own house and although we haven't changed our spending much, we would not be able to do the same thing again. My husband has a youth pastor salary and I am on a 1st year teaching salary. We knew we wanted to support a good breeder and I'm very happy with Bingley and the support I receive from his breeder. However, he was VERY expensive. I wish there was a way to establish a happy medium. Because of his price we haven't been able to afford a fence yet . . .  whereas we could have it if he had cost less. I'm VERY glad we have supported a good breeder and we will continue to support good breeding. I just wish it was a little more affordable. |
Ron wrote: Could the breeders work at changing the scale and price differential between pet and show quality -- say something like $2,500 for show quality only $1,000 for pet quality?
Isn't something like that already in place? PS in response to this I believe most breeders do this. However, in Bingley's case he would have been the same price whether he was shown or not. I suppose it depends on the quality of the litter. |
| As someone who has bred and shown Himalayan cats since my early teens I can tell you that if I added up all the money I have spent to date I could be retiring today in my late 40's. Being an ethical breeder is a lot of money and heartbreak as has been spelled out here in other posts. I have different price points for breeder/show stock and my pet stock. I also make exceptions about my pricing when I see a situation that I feel warrants it. I myself received an exception when I got my first top show kitten. I had approached this breeder about purchasing a show kitten to find out about availability and pricing. I was 13 years old and had a job to support my hobby, but knew it would take me a long time to save up to get a show kitten. This breeder must have watched me come to shows and seen me "clerking" in the rings, etc. Several months after I approached her she called me and said she had a kitten for me. I asked her how much he was. She asked me how much I had saved. I told her how much I had and she told me the kitten was mine and I should come with my parents to take a look at him. Long story short was she sold me this kitten for way less than she should. I showed him to a DBL Grand Championship and he went on to sire 15 additional GC's. I am very grateful to this lady. She was a mentor and that kitten was the beginnings of my breeding program. I have also done the same thing with people for both pet and show kittens. You just have to use your judgement and sometimes go on instinct. Breeding/showing is something you must be devoted to and you must be ethical and honest.
Kathie |
| While I agree with Carl's points, if someone cannot afford the initial cost of the dog...then they can't afford to keep a dog. Vet bills quickly add up and are often for something not planned for. I'm not just talking about spaying or neutering.
Last week I went into a pet store that sells animals. The price of their 'pets' were not much cheaper than getting an animal from a reputable breeder. But people will buy from a pet store because it is instant gratification. Not many people are willing to wait 10 months like we did...'just for a dog'. Now having said that....the price of sheepdogs(here in Ontario) has almost doubled in the four years since I got Merlin. |
| It has been discussed with other breeds, too, that perhaps if good breeders would breed specifically a "pet" litter every once and a while it would help satisfy the general public's desire for a pet...
Still the same health clearances, but all the pups would be available at 8/10 weeks, none held back for growing out for show, pet price would be a bit less, and all sold on a limited contract ( my preferance would be spayed/neutered too but that is another discussion). It would keep folks from going to the pet stores or the online catelogues of puppies that the millers offer so easily. Just a thought.... |
| Thanks Lisa for itemizing a lot of expenses that go into breeding.
All the breeders (OES of America members) that I have met showing Frank in dog shows in the North East US all charge the same rate for a puppy out of their litter. They consider all of their litters to be "show quality" and there is no price difference. They all seem to charge the same price for a puppy too all around the $1,500 price range. The only exception I've found is if A) they have a recognized star dog or popular kennel that they are breeding from then they command higher prices for puppies due to the demand for offspring. B) If a breeder has an older puppy that they decide not to keep for themselves, then they are willing to come down in price. Just for the record, we paid $1200 for Frank back in 2004 and the price since has jumped up to $1500 for a puppy from our breeder. We also paid $500 back in 1991 for our first OES from a pet store so you can see how much the price has gone up in 16 years. I think also in addition to all of the expenses, the price really depends on good old supply & demand. Another instance: A Norfolk Terrier puppy on an average costs $3,000. Reasons are that the people that breed this dog have really tried to keep tight reigns on keeping them out of puppy miller's hands & also their average litter size is 2-4 puppies. I don't think that there are many breeders for the Norfolks in the US either. |
WizardMerlin wrote: But people will buy from a pet store because it is instant gratification. Not many people are willing to wait 10 months like we did...'just for a dog'. Now having said that....the price of sheepdogs(here in Ontario) has almost doubled in the four years since I got Merlin.
Most people buy in pets stores because they have payment plans... or at least they do in our park of the country.... |
| Another reason people will buy from a pet store and not a breeder is the dogs at the pet store are more accessible. It took us months to find a breeder willing to talk to us about a puppy. |
| This may sound harsh, but why should everyone be able to afford one? If I were a breeder, I'd think it was insane to drop the price of a pet quality dog just so more people can can have them. Breeders work hard and should be able to get the price that they feel is fair without severely overcharging people who want to show-- that's expensive enough. Not only are you paying for normal dog care, but you have all the show costs, too, which, ask anyone who shows, are hugely expensive. Dropping the prices would only open up the door for more irresponsible owners to swoop in and get dogs that they can't care for. I'm not implying that all people are going to be irresponsible but it sure would make it easier to buy one if it were cheaper. Ultimately, if you're passionate about owning and having an OES, what's the difference between saving up $1,000 or $1,500 for a quality dog from a good breeder? It may mean waiting a little longer but isn't it worth it, if it's something you truly want? |
| I agree, Jill. I bought 4 puppies from the same breeder 8 and 9 years ago for a total cost of $6000. I would have considered that a bargain at twice the price. I also spent $15,000 on vet bills when Beau was diagnosed with cancer. Again a bargain, as it kept him with us for 2 more years. I made sacrifices to pay all that and consider myself lucky that I could so. The initial cost of the puppy is only the beginning. |
ButtersStotch wrote: This may sound harsh, but why should everyone be able to afford one? If I were a breeder, I'd think it was insane to drop the price of a pet quality dog just so more people can can have them. Breeders work hard and should be able to get the price that they feel is fair without severely overcharging people who want to show-- that's expensive enough. Not only are you paying for normal dog care, but you have all the show costs, too, which, ask anyone who shows, are hugely expensive. Dropping the prices would only open up the door for more irresponsible owners to swoop in and get dogs that they can't care for. I'm not implying that all people are going to be irresponsible but it sure would make it easier to buy one if it were cheaper. Ultimately, if you're passionate about owning and having an OES, what's the difference between saving up $1,000 or $1,500 for a quality dog from a good breeder? It may mean waiting a little longer but isn't it worth it, if it's something you truly want?
Exactly. |
| If you can't afford the initial cost of the dog...you can't afford the dog....and if it takes you months to just save the money for the initial cost of the dog...what happens to that dog when it has a medical emergency?
I think a lot of people go into purchasing a dog with no thought...its an impulse purchase for a LOT of people. (that is how we got our chow, we were typical dumb dog owners...we went to the pet store to 'browse' and came home with a dog and a breed that we knew nothing about...but boy was she cute ..this was almost 20 years ago)
I am NOT talking about the majority of the people on this forum. And before you get all mad at what I am saying...think about it.....I am sure most of you know people who got their dogs as an impule purchase or they did not research breeds. I would bet that most of the dogs purchased at pet stores are impulse purchasers....no amount of breeding by ethical breeders is going to stop people from the impulse purchases. |
WizardMerlin wrote: I would bet that most of the dogs purchased at pet stores are impulse purchasers....no amount of breeding by ethical breeders is going to stop people from the impulse purchases.
Barney was an 'impulse buy' from a pet store. His first owner went in to a pet store around christmas time and saw this adorable 3 month old sheepdog and bought him for $1500 and brought him home then and there. She told me she had grown up with sheepdogs, but I find that hard to believe, as one of the reasons she wanted to get rid of him was because he got too big...at 5 months old! Um...sheepdogs get big! So he's a perfect example of an expensive pet store impulse buy where the owner got tired of him after 2 months...her loss! I'm a little torn on the 'if you can't afford the initial cost of a dog, you can't afford the dog' issue. At least for me personally, I would have a hard time finding $1500 extra in cash for a dog...I could do it, but it's not like I have that amount just laying around at the ready...but I feel that I am totally able to care for Barney's daily needs, and also any unforseen needs that may pop up...but I do not find the price of sheepdogs to be too high, as deterring casual owners isn't a bad thing, imo |
| hmmm... I have a lot of thoughts on this issue, as it's obvious we all do.
But I'll limit it to a couple of thoughts here. The first is that, in my experience, most people are ignorant about the differences in backyard breeders and quality breeders. I know that before I joined this forum and started listening to the experts, I just assumed that if I didn't want to show a dog, any "AKC registered" OES would be good enough for me. So I shopped around for the least expensive one I could find. I have since learned the difference. The second is that, yes, this is America, land of credit cards and payment plans. And like someone said (sorry, i can't see who that was), people are going to want the cadillacs for the chevy monthly payments. And if the best breeders aren't going to give that to them, they are going to go somewhere else. (Please do not interpret this as me saying that it should work that way, but credit cards and living beyond your means is a different topic for a different day) I'm just making the point that most everyone who wants an OES will find a way to get one, good or bad.... |
Callie's Mom wrote: I'm just making the point that most everyone who wants an OES will find a way to get one, good or bad....
True enough, but I wouldn't necessarily want everyone who wants an oes to have one. |
| Interesting and informative thread, thanks for all the good information. |
Willowsprite wrote: Callie's Mom wrote: I'm just making the point that most everyone who wants an OES will find a way to get one, good or bad.... True enough, but I wouldn't necessarily want everyone who wants an oes to have one. But should having $1500 + on hand to put down for a puppy, especially knowing that there will be plenty of other expenses right away be the deciding factor on who owns or doesn't own an OES? Show dog, sure, but a family pet? I realize the costs of producing a litter of puppies from a champion bloodline; I understand the benefits of the show circuit. I also understand that the high price of good quality puppies (vs show quality puppies) is part of what keeps puppy mills and back yard breeders (some of whom do take a great deal of care with their breeding program) in business. When people ask me about purchasing an OES, I always stress the high level of commitment required re: grooming, walking, socialization, need to be with people as opposed to being relegated to the yard only. And size. And energy level. And the importance of selecting for temperment and health. If my first puppy cost $1500, there would not have been a first puppy. I knew that there would be costs for vet visits and vaccinations, good quality food, toys, bedding, leashes, etc. Do I think I'm a good pet owner? I do. Do I think I'm a good OES owner? Yes, I do. I have invested plenty of money, sure, but mostly my family and I have invested a lot of love and attention and care on all of our dogs. We educated ourselves about OES specific issues and dog behavior/needs. We trained our dogs and provide a safe, warm, loving home that expects good behavior from all--canine and human--who live here. It would have been the same for us if we had gotten a mixed breed from an animal shelter, really. Honestly, who among us treats our rescue dogs differently than we do/would a titled champion? I have been mulling over in my little brain some sort of licensing scheme for breeders. It would have to include mandatory health checks and screens and full disclosure. Animals with genetic problems would be barred from the breeding pool. Perhaps there would be at least two tiers: family pets and potential show quality pets. I know that most good breeders do separate out their potential champs from the puppies whose conformation is less than perfect and price them differently. Mulling things over in my brain, but since I am not a breeder, I know there are tons of issues I don't know/understand. |
| It is both the affordability and the accessibility of the purebred dog....not only OES.
I don't have an issue with the price of a well-bred dog from a reputable breeder who will provide support for the life of my puppy. The accessibility is my concern. Where oh where are all these breeders with the well bred pupppies for sale? I am sorry, but I personally find it unrealistic to expect Joe Puplic to wait 8 months or more for a puppy. We are living in the times of instant gratification and the times of patiently waiting for a good quality dog is gone. It may not be right, but that is fact. Unless someone wants a puppy from a particular breeder for a particular reason, the inaccessibility of the puppies is causing the consumer to go the "Walmart" way. I am not agruing that not everyone should have one....that appplies to any breed. But I think of in my situation, when we were looking for an OES a few years ago my husband made a few calls and we gave up. Now I have 2 rescues, and if anything ever happened to one of them, and I decided to get a puppy, I definitely would not want to wait for months. I would want none NOW.... So again, where oh where are the well-bred OES puppies? And I may be a bit more aware than the average pet buyer about what to look for in a breeder, but if I wasn't, I would go to the internet and oh, look what I find! Ching ching....a few hundred dollars later I have a puppy! I think that if the breeders are really concerned about "the breed" rather than thier own lines, then they would be reaady to educate and assist the public the way the consumer does it's purchases, not the other way around. I am not saying that it is right, and on this forum I am probably preaching to the copnverted, but I am refering to the average Joe, who just wants to buy a puppy..for whatever reason.... And until reputable breeders really take a hard and honest look at how THEY can change things, and enter into the competetion for good puppy homes, the mills will flourish....and the complaints about them will continue... |
| The local shelters are full of "affordable" family pets.
Someone didn't like the analogy earlier but I think there is a certain truth in it...... Just because you want a Cadillac doesn't mean you can or should have a Cadillac. A Ford might be the perfect car for you and well within your price range. I believe that a well bred, genetically healthy dog is worth the cost. |
Quote: This may sound harsh, but why should everyone be able to afford one? If I were a breeder, I'd think it was insane to drop the price of a pet quality dog just so more people can can have them. I'm not saying that everyone should be able to afford a well bred OES or any other breed or any other quality consumer product for that matter. What my post tried to centre on is the simple fact, the incontrovertible truth, that if people cannot afford a well bred dog then many many of them will go to a puppy mill or BYB for thier cheap and instant gratification. We all decry that puppy millers and BYBs exist. We all decry that the bitches on these premises are kept in deplorable conditions and that they are bred at virtually every season for far longer into their lifespan than is healthy for them. We all decry that the breedings at these suppliers are done cheaply without proper health tests and that the resultant puppies are kept in inhumane conditions and often have preventable illnesses that are neither diagnosed upon departure nor are they supported by the proprietor in later life. We all say that we need to get rid of puppy mills and BYBs for the sake of the individual dogs and the breed as a whole. All of this is correct, it is justified and the elimination of these squalid hovels is a laudable goal. BUT what are we actually willing to do about the situation? If we cannot, or will not remove the economic basis for the existance of puppy mills and BYBs, ie the demand for their product at their pricepoint, then we will NEVER get rid of them. I AM NOT saying that quality breeders should as a matter of routine meet the lower pricepoint, I simply put out the question "what, if anything can be done?". Quote: Breeders work hard and should be able to get the price that they feel is fair without severely overcharging people who want to show-- that's expensive enough. I fully agree that breeding is a hard and expensive undertaking and that it is unreasonable to expect people to deliberately set themselves up to loose money. Michele and I have been working towards getting RISA Kennels up and running for almost 4 years. We live on a middle class income and have all the common expenses shared by most people, mortgage, utilities, taxes up the yinyang and more, food, childrens upbringing etc. We are still a minimum of 9 months away from our first breeding and that assumes Dawn gets her championship this year and that she passes all her health tests. So while I can't say been there done that, I am there and am doing that in the present. Just to show how money can be spent for no return, we completed all Martin's health checks but his breeder still refused to release his limited registration so he can never be bred. In regard to there being a price differential between pet and show dogs it was said... Quote: ... I believe most breeders do this. However, in Bingley's case he would have been the same price whether he was shown or not. I suppose it depends on the quality of the litter. The quality of a litter does not, or should not, dictate the cost of each puppy. While each will inherit the same genes and hence mitigation of health and temperament risks, each dog is still an individual and will have varying qualities of conformation and performance discipline abilities. Each puppy can vary enourmously from the next. Virgil was supposedly the best of his litter and had a moderately successful show career. He has been bred twice to date. While all of his progeny are healthy and free of illness and are of good temperament they have varied quite markedly in conformation quality - 2 very good, one good and 3 pet quality. Martin came from an excellent breeding, has just the greatest temperament but his bite is somewhat weak and some say his front end "lacks drive". A number of his littermates easily championed. Quote: If you can't afford the initial cost of the dog...you can't afford the dog....and if it takes you months to just save the money for the initial cost of the dog...what happens to that dog when it has a medical emergency?
While this is a logical arguement and a fundamental truth of dog ownership, in the face of basic human nature it is unfortunately an overly simplistic summary. Education can probably pursuade about 10% of potential owners who cannot afford a well bred dog not to seek a puppy mill or BYB "on-the-cheap-payment puppy", but there will still be a vast majority of underfunded and unteachable people who will think "it won't happen to my dog", "I'll get pet insurance before he gets old enough to start gettig sick", "if it gets sick or has a genetic condition I'll turn it over to rescue and someone else can pay the medical bills", or perhaps most calously "it's just a dog and if it gets too expensive I'll destroy it and get another one". So my original questions remain; "Have we, the OES community as a whole, done right by either this prosepctive community member or even the breed as a whole when costs are so high that we appear to be a self protecting and exclusive club?" and "can we not do a little more to enable more people to enter into our community if they have a genuine interest, love and capability to care for these dogs?" Perhaps there is nothing that can be done in which case we will have to accept that there will always be puppy millers and BYBs who will meet the low pricepoint demand. |
| Carl, I agree with what you are saying. But, if the cost of a well bred dog were to suddenly drop and become affordable for the average consumer would the cost on the flip side be that because "reputable" breeders are no longer able to charge enough to cover expenses, they go out of business resulting in fewer puppies which would in turn create an increased cost as the demand exceeds the supply?
Are "good breeders" really making money on thier litters? Or is it the puppymills that are profiting through low price and increased sales? |
| **grabs a bag of popcorn and continues to sit back and read thread**
Y'all go ahead... *chomps* |
Joahaeyo wrote: **grabs a bag of popcorn and continues to sit back and read thread** im thinking the same thing. This is a good thread im loving everyones thoughts on thisY'all go ahead... *chomps* |
Tasker's Mom wrote: Carl, I agree with what you are saying. But, if the cost of a well bred dog were to suddenly drop and become affordable for the average consumer would the cost on the flip side be that because "reputable" breeders are no longer able to charge enough to cover expenses, they go out of business resulting in fewer puppies which would in turn create an increased cost as the demand exceeds the supply? Are "good breeders" really making money on thier litters? Or is it the puppymills that are profiting through low price and increased sales? I think that Carl did not intend to say that reputable breeders can lower their prices to solve the problem. I think Carl is pointing out that there is a problem, and is asking "how do we solve this problem?". Carl Lindon wrote: I AM NOT saying that quality breeders should as a matter of routine meet the lower pricepoint, I simply put out the question "what, if anything can be done?".
To answer your last question, NO. Most "good breeders" are not making money on their litters. I know my breeder never does, and we paid $1500 for our baby - and yes, he is worth every penny and I will gladly pay it (or more if Barkley's breeder's prices go up) again. I think what Emily meant to say is that Bingley would have cost the same amount if they wanted him for a pet or for showing because Bingley is a quality puppy who has good potential. I think when she said "quality of litter" she really meant quality of individual pup. It just so happens that Bingley's litter was full of show prospects! |
| P.S. Barkley was believed to be "pet quality" at 8 weeks, though at that age it is very hard to tell, and from one day to the next the breeder wasn't sure if he'd be kept as a show dog or not. |
| I was just messing around on the internet looking for some stats and came across this statistic regarding backyard breeders. I knew the number was high, and this statistic is nearly 10 years old, but I was surprised it was that high.
Quote: What Does the Term Backyard Breeder Mean?
Another attempt to define various kinds of breeders results in the term backyard breeder. This term is used to describe people who breed dogs without knowing what they are doing. The motive may be profit, and occasionally someone of this sort will make a tidy profit from turning out puppies without spending the money to provide them with good care. More typically they'll produce one litter, find out how expensive, exhausting and heartbreaking it is to breed dogs, and have their female spayed. The American Kennel Club estimated in 1996 that about 70 percent of purebred, AKC-registered puppies were from this source. Source: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1448 |
| Jill, that is VERY interesting.
Carl asked "Have we, the OES community as a whole, done right by either this prosepctive community member or even the breed as a whole when costs are so high that we appear to be a self protecting and exclusive club?" and "can we not do a little more to enable more people to enter into our community if they have a genuine interest, love and capability to care for these dogs?" I think that in the last several years something HAS been done to allow the 'everyday' person more access to purebred dogs...and that is in the rise in organized rescue. When I was in college, just for fun I would look around the Internet for sheepdog info about breeders in my area and rescue organizations. It was hard to find any info. Now it is MUCH easier to find information on all of it. Some might say it is sad because it means a rise in the need for rescues, but I think the need was always there, but scattered around in humane societies and shelters so it would be harder to pinpoint a specific breed you were looking for. I know a lot of people want a puppy and not a rescue, even if it is a rescue puppy, but I think this has been one aspect that has been increased and bettered over the last few years to help get purebred dogs into more homes... |
| There was an interesting discussion on another forum I nam on about "pet quality" vs "show quality". This forum was primarily breeders, they were saying that when it come to a well bred dog there is no such thing as "pet quality" vs "show quality" and that it takes as long as 6 months to determine if a pup is going to "make it" in the show ring. From their perspective all puppies are bred to be "show quality".
Their "interpretation" of a request for a "pet quality" dog was that the person wanted a show quality (because according to these breeders that is the quality dog they strive to breed) dog at a discount. I think I have mentioned before, when I bought Tasker his price was significantly less than that of his litter mates because he had a color fault considered very objectionable. To me, that made him "pet quality" but since hopefully a good breeder would not run into something like that very often I guess I would have to agree that there is no real point in a price difference between "pet quality" and "show quality". Because, and I'm just thinking out loud here........ a good breeder should be breeding consistently for meeting and exceeding breed standards, and if that happens there should "theoretically" not be many puppies who have faults that would catagorize them as "pet quality". If a breeder does consistently breed puppies of "pet quality" aren't they then basically "backyard breeders"?[/b] |
| So what if anything are you suggesting, Carl? Will you be offering your pups for $500-$700?
Perhaps if champion kennels wouldn't be castigated for producing 50 pups a year, they could sell show/breeding stock for $3500, and pets for $700... Would that help, or would it be likely to cause a lot of high quality $500 dogs to show up in shelters? Wouldn't "we" have to relax the ethical "requirement" that breeders be responsible for the lifetime of their puppies? |
Sheepie Heaven wrote: I think what Emily meant to say is that Bingley would have cost the same amount if they wanted him for a pet or for showing because Bingley is a quality puppy who has good potential. I think when she said "quality of litter" she really meant quality of individual pup. It just so happens that Bingley's litter was full of show prospects!
Yep, that's what I meant. Thanks! It was believed by the breeder as well as others that the entire litter could champion if they developed properly!
I'm very glad we were able to get Bing and I definitely would do it again, but I know there are many puppy buyers out there who won't take the year or so to plan and save to get a well-bred puppy. I also know people who can't drop a couple thousand dollars for a new pup but are exceptional and responsible owners. This is an excellent thread because it discusses a problem that is facing dog people of all breeds: how do we eliminate the mills as well as promote our breed to responsible owners without having them balk at the initial cost etc etc? Rescue is awesome, but in an idea world there wouldn't be rescue!!!  Ohhh - I wonder how much a sheepie would cost in the ideal world?  I must be getting off track now. No easy answer - that's why we're going on three pages.  |
| I agree that there shouldn't be a price difference between "pet quality" and "show quality", but if you want a puppy for a pet, the breeder will be asking you to sign a spay/neuter agreement and if you want a puppy for show, then you can't spay/neuter (unless you want to show in limited altered class).
So if you want a puppy to show, why? I was under the impression that the only reason you would invest the huge amount of time and money into showing a dog to its championship would be if you wanted to breed the dog. So, if you are buying a puppy to show, you are in all likelihood buying a puppy to hopefully breed someday - pending heath checks, championship, etc. That would be the case where there should be a price difference. JMO As for my experience, the words "show quality" or "pet quality" were never once used. Barkley's litter was bred to hopefully produce puppies that would better the breed. Up until the day we went to pick up Barkley we weren't 100% sure we were getting him because the breeder thought he might have potential and might want to keep him to show. It is so hard to tell at such a young age. They will make their best guess and keep the show prospect (or enter a co-owning agreement with someone) and take their chances. As for Carl's questions, I don't have a good answer. I am interested to hear if someone does. |
| I dunno, we have at least one member here who finished her dog's championship, shaved him down and had him neutered all in the same afternoon.
Well, it wasn't really that fast, but almost! |
Sheepie Heaven wrote: So if you want a puppy to show, why? I was under the impression that the only reason you would invest the huge amount of time and money into showing a dog to its championship would be if you wanted to breed the dog. So, if you are buying a puppy to show, you are in all likelihood buying a puppy to hopefully breed someday - pending heath checks, championship, etc.
Hmmmm, I guess I never "thought" that. Don't some people show, just to show???? |
| I did say "in all likelihood". I suppose if you have lots of money and free time and want to show dogs just for fun of course... there must be some people who do that.
One breeder we spoke with when researching breeders did have a different price for show and pet quality. They also would ship dogs overseas after earning their championship to buyers who only wanted to own a dog who had earned its championship first. I guess the difference I was trying to point out that could warrant a price difference in pup is breeding rights. If someone is purchasing a pup to possibly someday breed (which typically would mean it will be a show dog first), I wouldn't be surprised if they pay more than someone purchasing a pup to have as a pet, with an agreement to spay/neuter. |
| It isn't always a question of 'instant gratification.' Sometimes, it's just plain timing. My first OES was a birthday present. My birthday is in February, not the best month to get a puppy if you live in Minnesota. So, we began looking around (this forum was not around and indeed, the internet was in its infancy--we weren't on line, certainly), with an eye to finding a puppy for sometime in May--the weather would be warm and my husband and children would all be home for the summer to help me raise the puppy. Not only was this convenient as far as house training, but also it seemed an ideal situation to help us integrate our puppy into our family. It worked out so well that we have gotten all of our puppies in May. I no longer have time off in the summer, but husband and kids do.
No matter how wonderful the puppy, or how wonderful the lines he decended from, no matter what we paid, I don't think we would have gotten a better pet if we had searched--or known enough to search--for a puppy from someone who showed dogs. Notice I said pet: Merlin was descended from championship lines, with a lot of titles in his pedigree, but I never showed him. I toyed with the idea of showing him but opted not to because I don't think the lifestyle suits me or my family very well, even if money were not a factor. In fact, the show aspect is the one thing that will keep me from ever breeding. I absolutely believe that all dogs who are bred should be well screened and certified for health and temperment prior to being used for breeding. This is something I would be ready, willing, and able to do. In fact, I cannot imagine breeding without taking all of these steps first. I understand and respect what showing dogs can do for the breed. I agree that at this tme showing dogs and breeding only from dogs who earn titles may be the best, may be the only way to ensure that the OES remains a strong, distinct wonderful breed. I'm not sure that's the only way it should work, and I wonder if there isn't another way to go about it. Maybe there is not. And by throwing out the question, I mean no disrespect to the dedicated breeders who work so hard to show their dogs and who go through so much to produce wonderful puppies. But do the math: how many OES show? How many title? How many puppies can be produced from this limited number of animals? |
| Not knowing much about breeding, I was on the other end looking for a pup. I can tell you the "no name" breeders ( trying to use a nice term) can charge as much as some of the reputable breeders. And as far as large litters....while looking for my pup, I was on waiting lists for multiple different breeders all reputable, all off the breeder referral list. Well, we had four false pregancies, one complication needing a c-section with only one pup surviving and two litters of only two or three and none surviving. So, those breeders expended large amounts of money for breedings, testing, songrams, etc and made nothing. I don't think there is as much money being made by the reputable breeders as it looks from the outside.
My last comment is, if you cannot afford the price of a puppy from a reputalbe breeder, you cannot afford the cost of a sheepdog - or any dog for that matter. Food, grooming, medical ( even for a healthy pup), are all expensive. My first OES lived to almost 15 years old and was as healthy as a horse - until about 12 or 13. The we had hip problems and other problems and I can tell you, the Vet bills those last few years were tremendously high. I think they named a wing after me at the animal hospital! So, if you cannot afford it, don't get a dog. Hope I didn't offend anyone. People just don't realize the life time committment having a dog is and I get upset to see pups go to homes to people who cannot make the committment. Dogs should not be looked at as something disposable... Diane |
Quote: My last comment is, if you cannot afford the price of a puppy from a reputalbe breeder, you cannot afford the cost of a sheepdog - or any dog for that matter. Food, grooming, medical ( even for a healthy pup), are all expensive. My first OES lived to almost 15 years old and was as healthy as a horse - until about 12 or 13. The we had hip problems and other problems and I can tell you, the Vet bills those last few years were tremendously high.
I don't agree that you must be willing and able to spend thousands of dollars and wait months or years for a puppy to be able to afford an OES or any other dog. Before owning my first OES, I had a very good idea of what vet bills, food bills, etc. would be. And I also know what sorts of vet bills may be involved in the last few years of life. My first OES had a cancerous tumor removed--twice. He recovered from that, thankfully, but a year later developed mobility issues and required a great deal of care during the last year of his life. Vet bills were the least of it, frankly. And I would have done the same for a stray I found on the street. |
tgir wrote: But do the math: how many OES show? How many title? How many puppies can be produced from this limited number of animals?
But do we really want mass produced sheepdogs, even if they come from healthy parents? I know that might sound elitist of me, but it isn't...I think that anyone who wants a sheepdog and goes through proper channels, either puppy-wise or rescue, should be able to get one. Part of the appeal to me is that sheepdogs are a little unique--they aren't the ubiquitous Lab or Golden Retriever. If there was a way to have more puppies born of healthy, yet not Champion, sheepdogs, that would be fine, but that's where the showing comes in handy...it just proves the health and good qualities of that particular dog. It seems that there is a very fine line between a healthy dog with no discernable genetic problems, and a healthy-seeming dog that people will breed. |
Ron wrote: I dunno, we have at least one member here who finished her dog's championship, shaved him down and had him neutered all in the same afternoon. Well, it wasn't really that fast, but almost! HEY!!!!!  Sheepie Heaven wrote: So if you want a puppy to show, why? I was under the impression that the only reason you would invest the huge amount of time and money into showing a dog to its championship would be if you wanted to breed the dog. So, if you are buying a puppy to show, you are in all likelihood buying a puppy to hopefully breed someday - pending heath checks, championship, etc.
When we bought Frank, I decided I wanted to give showing a try. It wasn't because I had a lot of extra money or time. It was because I'm a dog loving freak who had all the different pedigree breeds memorized by the time I was around the age of 10. And that's even with growing up with a mutt in our house. I thought that showing Frank would take me away from my computer workaholicism and give me some great bonding time with him. Bonding time - training, grooming, traveling, etc. I really did not show with the intent to breed him. As much as it can cost to show a dog, you can certainly save money by only showing locally (which is very easy to do in the Northeast) and only paying the entry fees & gas. As it turned out for me, showing actually did add stress in my life trying to keep up with the coat, having a dog that wasn't completely crazy about the car (although I think it did help matters continuing to travel), and I had horrible stage fright as soon as I stepped into the ring with him. The plus side of showing for me was meeting incredibly wonderful, passionate people in the OES breed (including Maxmm who started showing the same time I did). I also loved seeing & meeting the other breeds of dogs at shows. I learned so much about grooming and dog behavior & overall health. Plus Frank really, really enjoyed all of the attention as I'm sure you guys are aware that OES' never lack attention! I did end up hiring a ring side handler the last few shows Frank attended and he got his Championship back in July, winning 3 majors in the last 4 times out in the ring. One of the highlights of his career was beating the dog that won Best of Breed at Crufts. Anyhow, along the showing path, we found out Frank has some stomach issues & is on prescription dog food. The vet gave us "thumbs up" to breed him, if we wanted, but Frank's breeder & I decided it would be best not to in order not to perpetuate the sensitive stomachs OES already have. So soon as he got his Championship we like shaved him down the same week (really needed to devote time to our business again!) and got him neutered a few months later... |
| I personally don't think OES puppies from reputable breeders are all that expensive compared to other breeds. My sister-in-law paid $1000 for a goldendoodle puppy (which is not even a purebred!), and my friend paid $2500 for a Coton du Tulear. My breeder did differentiate between show and pet quality, in the sense that our first sheepie was a cryptorchid, which meant he couldn't possibly be shown or bred. Therefore, he was $1000, and had to be neutered (spayed really), as opposed to her pups that had no obvious health or temperament issues, which she specified could not be neutered and that she had the right to evaluate and show in the future.
This breeder discovered Oscar's deafness at 5 weeks old, so obviously he could never be shown or bred. She placed him with us when he was 10 weeks old at no charge, but we didn't feel right about that, so we paid her what we paid for our first sheepie. (Suckers!!!!)
And I don't feel that we in the sheepdog community are exclusive or exclusionary. I think most people don't have sheepdogs because of the size and the extensive grooming requirements, which are both good reasons to take a pass if you don't have the time or energy. I am often approached by strangers when walking Oscar, and they want to know all about the breed. I tell them all the wonderful things, but I also emphasize the grooming requirements in cost and time, in order to educate, not to exclude. An OES is not for the faint of heart!!!!!
And I must say that if you can't afford the puppy, you probably can't afford the lifetime care that the puppy will need. Even the best bred dogs can have issues or accidents that require money and medical attention. Plus, OES pups require grooming equipment, or frequent trips to the groomers that cost more than caring for a short-coated breed, like a Lab or Beagle, for instance. Just my two cents..... Laurie |
| I agree with you very much Oscar's mom. Well put.
Except.... my parents' Goldendoodle cost nearly as much as our Barkley, but I don't think that's unreasonable because she's not purebred. Her parents, although not shown to their championship (really - who cares about conformation when it's going to be a hybrid) went through all the appropriate medical testing and medical certification prior to being bred. They also only breed their bitches a few times and retire at age 5. I think that good breeding whether it is a cross or purebred is costly. |
barney1 wrote: tgir wrote: But do the math: how many OES show? How many title? How many puppies can be produced from this limited number of animals? But do we really want mass produced sheepdogs, even if they come from healthy parents? I know that might sound elitist of me, but it isn't...I think that anyone who wants a sheepdog and goes through proper channels, either puppy-wise or rescue, should be able to get one. Part of the appeal to me is that sheepdogs are a little unique--they aren't the ubiquitous Lab or Golden Retriever. If there was a way to have more puppies born of healthy, yet not Champion, sheepdogs, that would be fine, but that's where the showing comes in handy...it just proves the health and good qualities of that particular dog. It seems that there is a very fine line between a healthy dog with no discernable genetic problems, and a healthy-seeming dog that people will breed. I'm certainly not advocating mass production of puppies. I am suggesting that making excellent puppies difficult to come by (see Ashley's post) and expensive does help contribute to exactly what we don't want to happen: people buying from breeders who aren't as careful as is best, and even some who are downright careless. I wonder, too, if there isn't another way. n to raise a puppy before looking for one. It wasn't about instant gratification for us. It was about making good use of our resources to provide the best for our new addition to our family, which meant leaving some money for vet bills, etc. |
| Seems this topic is quite the hot subject! Since TGIR referred to my post, let me clarify..the point I was making was not that breeders make it difficult to get a puppy. My point was to show that reputable breeders do not make the fortune on a litter that was referred to in an earlier post.
I stand by my position and that of the many others on this forum. If you cannot afford to pay the price for a healthy, sound puppy, you have no business buying a dog at all. Sorry to sound like a snob but adding a puppy is like adding another member to the family and if you can't afford it, be it an OES or any dog, purebred or mixed, don't buy one. The reasons are obvious. |
| Lots of good points brought up in this post.
I've brought into my home 30 cats, 7 dogs, all rescues but one. Each lived out the duration of their lives in my home (many were adopted as seniors or special needs pets from the SPCA). I started doing this when I was very young and like VerveUp knew every dog/cat breed in existance at a tender age. Even at age 12 adults would ask my advice on dogs or cats. Even at that young age all my pets were spayed and neutered with my babysitting money. I always took pet ownership as something that needed to be taken seriously. I previously had 2 OES(rescues) in my home and all my life had wanted a OES puppy from a reputable breeder. As a single mom with kids and a housefull of pets the price was beyond my reach at certain times in my life. After 10 years of patiently waiting and nearing the end of my Shaggy's life (OES) at the age of 15, I put my name on a list for a pup. I had done the research and contacted the AKC and breed group in my area to ask whom they recommended. What is kinda ironic, is the reason I had the cash was I had a loan from the bank to buy a car. I would never compare a dog with a car but thought I'd mention it and decided that I'd use a portion of the loan to purchase the pup and buy a used car instead. I had my priorities!
Some of my rescues: The cat found on a street with a broken jaw and crushed leg that was taken to the SPCA hospital - I adopted him and spent 1000 on the amputation and Ralph lived to the grand old age of 19. Bear the 10 year old dog that was left at the shelter by his family whom I adopted and it turned out he had a cancerous tumor in his belly. 2,000 dollars trying to save him but at last nothing more could be done. Mama Kat the 7 year old feline that had very bad absessed teeth and possible kidney problems it took 700 but today she is a healthy 10 year old cat still living with me. Shaggy, who I adopted at a year and developed immune deficiency thrombocytopenia , her cost accumulated to 4,000 dollars before she passed at age 15. Panda, the OES rescued from Asia whom has hip dysplasia and a recently diagnosed cateract, so far his cost have exceeded 2000. Steady the Guinea Pig and Sammy the hamster have also benefitted from vet care..it's not about the size of the pet. That's just some of the pets I've rescued who had health problems and doesn't include the innoculations, yearly vet visits, licenses, spay/neuter, good quality food, and lots of love of course for all the others. All 7 dogs went to obedience classes too. Lastly, I did get the OES pup I dreamt of all my life and perhaps on the surface people may have thought I didn't look as if I could afford him. Yet my track record with all my rescues showed that no matter what the cost - I would somehow find the money to provide them with the best possible care. It's all a matter of priorities and what some are willing to give up. As I said, I could be driving a nice new vehicle instead of my ole van but to me there is no comparison like the love of my pets. Besides, I bought the van for them to all have a window seat and don't care one bit the van is soiled after a romp in the woods as I may with a newer vehicle perhaps. Still, I'm not offhanded about finances either as if I couldn't pay my morgage myself, my children and the pets would all suffer as a result. I don't mean the average family should go broke or that one has to be a martyre but it has to do with how that family would view their pet. Studies have shown that free dogs given away in the papers are not held as in high regards as those even asked for even a nominal fee. It can perhaps be the same thing with high priced dogs. Lets not forget too, that reputable breeders spend quite a bit on health certifications, the best vet care for their dogs and it's not a money making venture for them but for the betterment of the breed. It turned out my show puppy whom I paid a hefty price for has been very healthy unlike the rescues and in the end resulting costing me less than Panda and Blue the other two dogs whom shares my home and heart. 
Hope people don't get turned off of rescues by my mentioning that as I mean to tell them purchase from a reputable breeder to avoid passing on bad genetic traits. The bad breeders don't even check the health of their dogs. Support the good breeders. Do I sympathize with the family that wants a pup but can't afford it? Not really as if I can do it..anyone can..even if it means waiting 10 years and putting money aside. If you want it badly enough they can forgo a reno, trip or ? it's all a matter of priorities. You also have to thing about whether they would be willing to do whatever it took should their pet ever get ill, regardless if it was a show dog or one from the pound. They are a valuable family member. Marianne and the boys |
| I don't think I will ever agree that if you can't spend $1500+ on a puppy, you can't afford that puppy (or any other as has been stated on this forum). I couldn't spend that on my first puppy and I don't think anyone could possibly accuse me of not spending the time, effort and dollars necessary to take excellent care of my dog, including extensive investments of time and dollars when he became disabled his last months of life. I would do it again for any of my dogs, no matter the price I paid for the dog.
I am concerned about the following and think that anyone who cares about the breed should as well: 1. If good quality puppies are upwards of $1000, and if there is a months or years long waiting list to receive a puppy, the net result will be that some people who really want an OES will find a way to get one--including purchasing a puppy from someone who makes puppies available more quickly and at a lower price. 2. Some breeders who see that the demand for OES (or other pure bred puppy) greatly exceeds the supply will fill the need by producing less expensive puppies. Some may skip the show/title expenses; some may skip health checks. There are lots of ways to save, short term, many of them with potentially horrible long term effects. 3. Some breeders who see that people are willing and expect to pay upwards of $1000 for a purebred OES will produce plenty of puppies for that price, without doing all of the health checks, show/title work, etc. necessary. The idea of "you get what you pay for" can backfire easily here. Some people will assume that paying $1500 for a puppy is an indication that the puppy is from excellent breeding stock. Unfortunately, a few people will expect that paying $1500 for a puppy entitles them to demand perfection from the puppy and will treat the puppy as a status symbol rather than as a family member. 4. Finally, I won't compare puppies to cars, but I will comment that all of my puppies cost more to bring home than 3 of my 4 kids. My firstborn was born when we were poor and didn't have insurance. We could least afford him, but we managed to come up with the $3500 needed. We did without a lot, including some things we probably should not have gone without. Something to think about...... |
| In all of this thread I have not advocated "mass producing OES" and I have never meant to imply that OES should be the most popular breed. Even with the population being inflated by the presence of puppy mills and BYB progeny, the OES typically runs somewhere in the 65-75th place (by breed) in most country's annual registration statistics. Occassionally it is a bit higher for a year or two after a successful movie or advertising campaign featuring an OES but it always comes back to the "status quo" numbers very quickly. I have just wondered out loud if we could do something about providing well bred OES in sufficient numbers to remove the economic opportunity upon which puppy mills and BYBs capitalize. This would not increase the population and the "uniqueness" of the breed would be preserved.
Now, I don't want to further inflame peoples passions so I won't offer commentary to all points mentioned but I will offer one rebuttal. It has been said that pedigree dogs are now more available to the public because of Rescue organizations. While Rescue does a incredibly laudable job, lets remember that Rescue at its fundamental base (raisonne d'etre), is a responce to an extant and identified problem. It is NOT a structured programme intended to provide dogs to the "wider populace who would otherwise not have access to a pedigree dog". Rescue saves dogs from kill shelters, abusive homes or other situations which would typically result in the death of the rescued dog. Rescue does a remarkable job at that. On behalf of the dogs I thank all who are involved in this worthy but often heartbreaking and always immensely difficult endeavour. Finally, tgir wrote: I understand and respect what showing dogs can do for the breed. I agree that at this tme showing dogs and breeding only from dogs who earn titles may be the best, may be the only way to ensure that the OES remains a strong, distinct wonderful breed. I'm not sure that's the only way it should work, and I wonder if there isn't another way to go about it. Maybe there is not. And by throwing out the question, I mean no disrespect to the dedicated breeders who work so hard to show their dogs and who go through so much to produce wonderful puppies.
But do the math: how many OES show? How many title? How many puppies can be produced from this limited number of animals? Okay lets look at some numbers. From a "local" community point of view. There are just shy of 2000 members of this forum, most have one OES but there are a sufficient number of members with more than one OES it is reasonable to "assume" an average of 1.1 dogs per member which yields about 2200 OES in "our" community. Take an average lifespan of 11 years. On this basis just maintaining the OES population of this forum requires the birth of 200 dogs per year, which at an average of 6 surviving puppies per litter translates to 33.3 litters per year. How many active breeders do we have here? I get the impression that it may be about a dozen? Even if we are generous and say 18 that requires each breeder to essentially have maunder two litters a year just to maintain our own OES population. This probably means that our own community substantially outstrips it's own intrinsic supply!! On wider horizons. In 2004 and 2006 the AKC recorded 1494 and 1460 OES registrations respectively. If we are generous and say that 50% of all dogs are registered that gives a best case scenario of 2920 OES bred in 2005 representing 486 litters. It is more likely that AKC registration represent at best only 40% of OES born in the USA giving an actual birth population in the order of 3650. A registration of 30% is probably more accurate which would mean 4867 individual puppies in 2005. This worst case but most probable scenario of 4867 puppies bred represents a total of 811 litters if an average of 6 puppies survives (probably an overly optomistic number considering the living conditions and lack of veterinary care at mills and BYBs) There is no way reputable breeders are coming up with anything like 811 litters per year in the USA right now. This is why puppy mills and BYBs exist and will continue to exist unless we somehow figure out a way to provide for the demonstrated market. We wouldn't need to totally fill the demonstrated market, if we could provide for 75% of the market the millers and BYBs would for the most part conclude OES to be an "uprofitable" product line. In 2005 only 69 OES were shown in Canada of which about 20 were actually "seriously campaigned" coming from less than 10 CKC registered kennels (The 20th place dog only had 1 or 2 Best of Breed Wins and no group placements.) IF this implies that there are only about 10 active quality breeding kennels in Canada we can only expect at most 20 litters or 120 dogs per year from them. 120 dogs is not going to meet the public's demand combined with that of OESOCC member and breeder demands. If one ignores the actual facts these numbers can be messaged at will. If we increase the average lifespan and litter survival values used in the calculations we can reduce the number of demand-required litters per year by perhaps 15-20%. But , no matter how the numbers are "massaged" the bottom line is that the demonstrated long term and essentially stable public demand for OES far outstrips the well bred supply. Just a few more thoughts to consider. |
Carl Lindon wrote: In all of this thread I have not advocated "mass producing OES" and I have never meant to imply that OES should be the most popular breed. Even with the population being inflated by the presence of puppy mills and BYB progeny, the OES typically runs somewhere in the 65-75th place (by breed) in most country's annual registration statistics. Occassionally it is a bit higher for a year or two after a successful movie or advertising campaign featuring an OES but it always comes back to the "status quo" numbers very quickly. I have just wondered out loud if we could do something about providing well bred OES in sufficient numbers to remove the economic opportunity upon which puppy mills and BYBs capitalize. This would not increase the population and the "uniqueness" of the breed would be preserved.
Now, I don't want to further inflame peoples passions so I won't offer commentary to all points mentioned but I will offer one rebuttal. It has been said that pedigree dogs are now more available to the public because of Rescue organizations. While Rescue does a incredibly laudable job, lets remember that Rescue at its fundamental base (raisonne d'etre), is a responce to an extant and identified problem. It is NOT a structured programme intended to provide dogs to the "wider populace who would otherwise not have access to a pedigree dog". Rescue saves dogs from kill shelters, abusive homes or other situations which would typically result in the death of the rescued dog. Rescue does a remarkable job at that. On behalf of the dogs I thank all who are involved in this worthy but often heartbreaking and always immensely difficult endeavour. These were my comments...so I'll comment on the comments...
I was being fairly sarcastic when I asked if we wanted mass produced sheepdogs. And as for my comment on the rise in organized rescue bringing more pedigreed dogs into peoples' houses, I still think it's true. It, of course, is not the ideal way to pick your purebred dog, but think of all the people on this forum and elsewhere who have dogs that were rescued, in one form or another. I don't necessarily advocate it as the first method of finding a purebred dog, but what I was trying to say is that before recent years it seemed that there were a lot of shelter dogs that were purebred, but you could only locate them if you randomly went to that particular shelter and happened to see the purebred dog, or if you went in and put yourself on a list to be called if a purebred dog came in. So while it doesn't prevent the current byb or puppy mills from breeding, it does allow a specific channel for people to explore who want a purebred dog but either can't afford one or who just want to help one live a better life. |
| I'm somewhere in the middle, as to what I agree with, in this discussion.
That's all I have.  |
Joahaeyo wrote: I'm somewhere in the middle, as to what I agree with, in this discussion.
That's all I have. What, you're done with your popcorn? |
|
too lazy to read the entire thread, but got the general idea, and know where I stand, but too lazy to discuss it heavily. ((sets timer for another bag in microwave)) |
| I'm somewhat conflicted by the whole thing......... it does seem that there should be a way to produce HEALTHY puppies at a reasonable cost in a transaction where ethical breeding practices are followed.
I'm not supporting the concept of "cheap prices for the masses" because I don't think it should necessarily be easy for someone to obtain a purebred dog. There are too many people out there with dog that have no business owning them, why make it any easier. But on the flip side I do agree that to a certain extent the high price of puppies from reputable breeders encourages the growth of puppymills. Perhaps the answer is found in helping the caring concerned Backyard breed to become educated in ethical breeding practices. |
| Ginny, I agree, right down to the feelings of conflict, which may not have been apparent in my posts. |
Tasker's Mom wrote: Perhaps the answer is found in helping the caring concerned Backyard breed to become educated in ethical breeding practices.
Ginny I agree with everything you said, BUT, there is those that are pointed in the right direction and don't won't to put in the correct ground work, expenses and DON'T!!!! want to listen, they are deaf to what is advised to them to become elthical & accepted for good breeding practises POOR excuses as far as I am concerned. They ask questions and want to do things right but want everything yesterday and turn a deaf ear to what they don't want to hear. Not prepared to learn anything and are a plague on the breed.
Gets me big time, first OES Oooooh I want to breed and have pups out of my adorable OES
Sorry folks, I do get angry at times, especially over the last day or so. |
| Lisa, that's just a normal feeling that many people have. We love our dogs and want them to carry on forever. Joan and I wanted to breed Jake -- of course we wouldn't have, and besides-- he was neutered.
So we thought about having him cloned -- not seriously, more like "Wouldn't it be nice if..." That's how we, rescue people, felt about our big boy with agression issues and hip dysplasia and degenerative myelopathy. Point is, we all love our dogs and want grandpuppies. IMHO, it's normal, and we'll be fighting it forever. |
| I will repeat Carl's thoughts in a very simple way:
Bosley's mom wrote: It has been discussed with other breeds, too, that perhaps if good breeders would breed specifically a "pet" litter every once and a while it would help satisfy the general public's desire for a pet...
Still the same health clearances, but all the pups would be available at 8/10 weeks, none held back for growing out for show, pet price would be a bit less, and all sold on a limited contract ( my preferance would be spayed/neutered too but that is another discussion). It would keep folks from going to the pet stores or the online catelogues of puppies that the millers offer so easily. Just a thought.... OK, so don't adjust the price....whatever!!! Where-oh-where are all these well-bred puppies that people are encouraged to get? Are they all underground? From the sound of it they don't exist....So what is the breeding community going to do about it? It is fine to encourage people to find a reputable breeder, and then get on a wating list....but if 200 people on a waiting list for 20 puppies....?????And that is for the "educated" puppies buyers. The uneducated ones just support the mills and the pet stores for lack of a choice. I wouldn't encourage the BYB's to get educated about their breeding stock, because they won't. But I would be very happy to see a good breeder pop out a couple extra litters for us folks who just want a healthy puppy! And advertise them on the internet! Honestly, the stigma that "good breeders don't advertise" is a crock. Maybe some don't but I wish they did!!!! Then the millers would have some competition..! Geez...my dogs are not even 2 years old and I am started to get nervous about where I will get my next one from 10 years from now! |
Bosley's mom wrote: Where-oh-where are all these well-bred puppies that people are encouraged to get? Are they all underground? From the sound of it they don't exist....
Hey! I have a well-bred puppy! So does Emily (Bingley's mom) and so do quite a few on the forum!
|
Sheepie Heaven wrote: Bosley's mom wrote: Where-oh-where are all these well-bred puppies that people are encouraged to get? Are they all underground? From the sound of it they don't exist.... Hey! I have a well-bred puppy! So does Emily (Bingley's mom) and so do quite a few on the forum! Whoops! That sounded wrong....didn't it? I meant where are the "available" ones.....You guys got them all!!!! So back to the end of the line for you..... |
| Oh, yeah. I'm happy hanging out at the end of the line for awhile. |
| Then we come full circle to the cost of a well bred oes becoming prohibitive to some. It costs so much to breed a litter, and then most reputable breeders want to keep a pup and show that pup which takes time, effort and money so even if they "could" breed another litter that year it may not be feasible in terms of time. |
Didn't find exactly what you're looking for? Search again here:
Custom Search
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|