Some Advice is needed ...
Also I am not really sure about which board to put this in so i stuck it in here. OK... whilst we are waiting and looking for our next attempt at getting a lovely freind, I figured it was about time to shake myself outta my stupor and get back to the buisness at hand. My goal is to become a respected OES friend(owner no.. friend yes).. breeder and shower ( is that a word? ). My grandparents were breeder folk of high quality and had people seek them out from all corners for their respective breeds once upon a time and I wish to follow in their footsteps. After all I was raised with dogs.. love dogs as part of my family.. what better life for me than the one I have set before myself. SO.. here is what I am asking.. my grandparents are gone and the only other breeder I know is a lab breeder in the United Kingdom. None of them I can contact to help me get started.. ya know all those niggly questions I might have..phone calls outta the blue by a gasping female desperate that she hasnt boogled something beyond repair.. Like how does one pick a pup to start showing/breeding with.. should I start with a male or female... how do i learn showing.. etc..etc.. I mean I know white caps are the latest fashion in OES but the really marked ones appeal to me.. am i being silly for thinking anything other than a white cap might be able to win? well... is there anyone out there who would be willing to mentor a silly arse lass and help guide her into the start of something she has dreamed of her whole life? pretty please with sugar cream pies on top..  |
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| The best way to get started is to find yourself a MENTOR, someone who is already a successful breeder who is willing to help and advise. If you find your next pup from a quality breeder they may be willing to help you, after allo it is their offspring you are showing.
Someone like Willowsprite here on the forum can better tell you what a LONG hard road it is from puppy owner to breeder. |
| My advice to you is firstly join the breed club, learn as much as you can about the breed, health wise and conformation wise, from there you get to know reputable breeders.
A breeder referral is also associated with the clubs as well to be able to get a show puppy of some quality & to start the journey in OES. A good breeder will then be able to take you under there wings and help you get started in the showring. As you progress and learn with your first pup, getting a show title of Ch. along the way then the next step is to be again be mentored by the breeder as far as breeding goes. Most breeders are a wealth of knowledge as to who would compliment the dog you are breeding and help you there with health issues and improving the next generation & having healthy babies. Knowledge also from a mentor in pedigrees and learning about the prior generations is a must too, before breeding. 
Snowcaps are not necessarily big winners, it is the overall conformation of the dog, soundness, movement etc that a judge looks for. Mine are heavily patched, brie is completely patched on the off show side with the patch running up her neck into the head patches. I prefer heavier markings as you get heavy pigment around the eyes etc. Brie is also a successful show dog with her last month taking out the Runner Up in Show at our Specialty. Her markings have not held her back and she is a Champion and was titled early. So wether a dog has an all white head or not is irrelevant. My preference is to patches and has always been, when choosing a pup, markings are the last thing, the overall dog is what is important and that they come from parents that have had all the necessary health screenings and have been certified clear to have puppies. I have had OES for 30 years now, been showing since 1991 and have had wonderful mentors along the way, that is the best way to get started in the breed, we all have to start somewhere and to go onto breeding them, learn all that you can about the breed first.
Best wishes and I hope you find a wonderful baby to start a wonderful journey. |
| I agree with what has been said... it is a long journey going from pet owner to showing/breeding.
I definitely recommend buying a show quality pup from a reputable breeder as close to you as possible who is able and willing to mentor you, show you hands on how to groom for show, how to learn all about the basic conformation of oes etc... Reading and memorizing the standard is a good start, but none of it will make sense until you have someone go over a dog with you in real life who can explain the finer points of structure and movement, coat texture etc. Carefully research pedigrees back as many generations as possible, learn what you can about health certifications behind your breeder's dogs, ensuring you the best chance possible to start with the very best you can. Read up on all the health problems that plague the breed, there are a lot.... Also, markings have absolutely nothing to do with the ability to win in the ring. Focusing on white heads and or blue eyes is a sign of a bad breeder IMO as a focus on that will eventually lead to deaf pups and possibly vision problems as well. Your focus should strictly be on temperment, health and structure. I think by asking questions first you are off to a very good start! Best of luck!  |
| Awesome advice above. I have nothing to add except you're probably wondering, "Where do I FIND this mentor?" Well, look for dog shows in your area with Old English entered. Once the OES have competed, introduce yourself to a few of the handlers and go from there! |
| thanks for talking to me about this and helping me outin any way you all can. I am currently talking to a breeder in Hot Springs who is only about hour n half away. Her name is Christine Beechy. Her and her mother apparently breed and show OES and Austrailian Terriers. One of her lasses is about ready to have some pups and I am comtemplating on wether or not to put a deposit down with her. She and I have been bouncing emails back n forth and getting to know each other.. hopefully i will build up the coruage soon to phone her.. im nervous i suppose.
I know this will be a long road and one which I am more than willing to undertake. I am glad to hear my love of the "patchy" pups isnt mis placed =) Would you all suggest a female or a male to start off with? Or just take a look at them and decide from there? again thanks for putting up with me.. at this point I am a sponge just soaking up all the knowledge I can off you lot and feel abit bad about that.. but I soo want to do this right and become a great breeder and possibly win a few shows ( girl can hope cant she =P ) thanks all.. =) |
| It does not matter male or female, look to the breeder for the best quality of pup in the litter to start off with. Not all in a litter is show quality and if a breeder says they are, then look elsewhere.
Also make sure that Mom and Dad of this litter have all the health screening approvals, that is Hip Certification certificates, eye clearance certificates and Thyroid clearances. If you go and see the puppies ask to view these documents. A good reputable breeder will have no problems in showing you proof that these health clearances have been done on the dam and sire prior to you making a decision to purchase a pup. |
| I'm not a breeder and I don't show, but I want to add that before you really, truly decide that breeding OES is the thing for you do pursue, please really, really get to know the breed. The OES, as a breed, has a unique personality that goes beyond being a herding dog. You cannot be successful unless you know, understand, and truly love the OES for the dog it is, and not for any visions of titles and puppies you have flitting about your head.
You also would do well to research health issues common to OES. Since you mention snowcap, that would be a good place to start. You also need to think seriously about the tremendous commitment of time. I have 3 OES and I don't show them. Nonetheless, their grooming is very time consuming--and I'm lax since I don't show. They require daily exercise, and they need plenty of cuddle time and play time as well. This is an enormous commitment of time, just to own one, without contemplating starting a kennel. Please don't be offended if I seem to be trying to discourage you. Whenever anyone asks me about getting an OES, I always spend plenty of time talking about the enormous commitment of time and energy required to raise an OES well. Long years of experience have taught me that lots of people are taken with the looks of an OES and the personality, but few are equipped to deal with the reality of lots of hard work. |
| =) thanks Tgir.. you havent discouraged me.. i know exactly how much of a commitment dogs in general can be let alone one of the OES standard, with its various ailments ( which i have researched ) through to its grooming requirments and digestive habits n problems..
Trust me guys.. when i go for something its not doen litghtly.. sometimes a bit too strong is more like it.. I have been gathering books on the breed and printing off pages and pages enough to fill more books on every piece of info i can get my grubby mitts on.. I can whole heartly say that I am not someone who is a fly by night and i am not looking at the blue ribbons or puppies or whatever.. i am looking at this as an adventure of sorts.. a challenge and i am too stubborn to quit especially when its something i truely love to do and want to do.. Ever since i was little i have been around dogs of various shapes n sizes and cared for and played with and even hunted with and cried over. Dogs are 2nd nature to me..Dogs are my life ( well other than my family of corse.. altho i might be tempted to trade my son if anyone has a well behaved pup they wanna trade for .. =) ).. i know this will take time.. i know this wont be easy.. what in life is tho.. i know what i am getting myself into and hence why i am asking you who know this particular breed best for any advice you might be able to offer.. if it was a hunting dog, spaniel or retriever i could tell you all you need to know.. herding dogs are newish to me ( i do have a G. Shepard/border collie cross atm tho.. talk about great dog).. in fact it was her that got me into the herding breed.. their attitudes.. brains and downright loveable loyalty that has entranced me.. OES.. i looked and settled on them.. If i truely was only in this for the blue ribbons n pups then i could have easily picked up an original stock Plott and won butt loads of them by know as my grandfather had original plott stock and was a good friend of that breeds founding family.. thats NOT what i want.. i want to do this with a breed that i love and i respect and cherish.. i am in this ..cause in my heart of heart.. i want to be a OES nut.. nowt wrong with that now is there |
| I have some questions.
What is the reason you would like to breed OES's ? And now, think long-term...How will you ensure that any puppies you produce do not end up in the home of a backyard breeder, used to spit out puppies to help pay the rent? Or worse, in a puppy mill somewhere? Or taking up valuable resources and space in a shelter or rescue? If you get a puppy now, there is no guarentee that it will show to its Championship. If it grows into less than show quality (and you cannot be sure until it is actually shown) then what will you do with him/her? IF you get a puppy that gets his/her championship, the proper testing cannot be done before 18 months/ 2 years. You will need to wait that long before the dog is bred. The tests are costly and so are the expenses involved in showing. And if the dog is unable to produce offspring..What will you do with her/him? You may know the answers to these, and you may not. Just some things to think about. I wanted to show/breed a few years ago, and had all these ideas and visions. Once I actually got involved into the showing and breeding end, joined the breed club and then learned about all the homeless dogs in rescue I realized that my own personal efforts are much better suited to the latter end of things. I would love to show/breed, but I couldn't afford the time or the money to do it right. If you have the time, money and the ambition to do it, you will have a lot of fun. Showing is very addictive, and I admire the smaller, show breeders immensely. Find a mentor, and enjoy! |
| Old English Sheepdogs - Puppies ARE COMING FOR XMAS CALL ASAP TO RESERVE . Raised with children and very well socialized. Gentle and family companions; Wonderful temperaments. Current shots & wormed; Health guaranteed; Parents on site. special pricing males $650 females $750 includes vet check-pictures of parents-one year guarantee-puppy pack-training info.You can now email me at _________@hotmail.com FOR CURRENT UPDATES GO TO MY PHOTOSITE AT www._________.com HURRY PUPS GO FAST This is taken from the internet ad from the breeder you named. Nothing is mentioned about CERF or OFA certification, thyroid testing, championship bloodlines, etc. While these puppies may prove to be wonderful pets, they would make questionable breeding stock at best. Please don't let geographic location be your guiding influence when choosing a breeder. If you haven't already contacted Old English Sheepdog Club of America Breeder Referral, please e-mail Tarja Koistila at oescrazy2@yahoo.com and check out the OESCA web site: http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica.org/ I know you've been devastated by the recent loss of your dear Ursa. My best advice to you is to continue to ask questions, be patient and talk to lots of people who've done what you aspire to do. Best of luck! Nita |
| Eek.. here comes my proper interrogation =)
1-What is the reason you would like to breed OES's ? I am the proud owner of my first ever hearding dog. A border collie/ geerman Shepard mix whom I adore. I lived in England for several years and there I got to learn more about the herding breeds and gravitated towards the OES. I must admit that the Border Collie also pulls at me but the OES pull is much stronger and true. The dog itself is a charmer of the highest magnitude. Loveable and loyal like most breeds I have been associated with but the OES .. I dont know.. something about it.. I just love em. =) 2-And now, think long-term...How will you ensure that any puppies you produce do not end up in the home of a backyard breeder, used to spit out puppies to help pay the rent? Or worse, in a puppy mill somewhere? Or taking up valuable resources and space in a shelter or rescue? I am already working on drawing up a contract to help ensure that they don’t. I am also laying down the foundations of learning what dogs should go to show/breed and which ones whilst adorable just quite couldn’t make it. I plan on having a pet clause which would require them to spay/neuter their pup or if it was breed/show well im still working on that one.. but I am working on it.. I also plan on making a clause in the contract that if they cant take care of the animal to return it to me so that I might re-home it. I do not plan on over breeding.. I plan on waiting for my bitch to mature properly and only work to better the quality of the breed.. not work towards its demise. 3-If you get a puppy now, there is no guarentee that it will show to its Championship. If it grows into less than show quality (and you cannot be sure until it is actually shown) then what will you do with him/her? He/she will still be a loved member of our family.. breeding and show is second to loveing friend.. always 4-IF you get a puppy that gets his/her championship, the proper testing cannot be done before 18 months/ 2 years. You will need to wait that long before the dog is bred. The tests are costly and so are the expenses involved in showing. And if the dog is unable to produce offspring..What will you do with her/him? Same as 3.. family is family and I have a habit of going above n beyond to ensure members of my family are well taken care of =) Knowing that its going to cost me ( which I know it will ) is one of the reasons why I am attempting to get all the information available and take this endevour slow n steady and enjoy the dog first n foremost.. then if we are lucky enough.. enjoy the other bits.. but the dog itself is and will always be family first! So.. did I pass.. I suck at tests.. =) Nita.. i am slowing myself down.. i am asking so many questions of everyone and sundry.. i will either drive them mad or myself mad with being an unsufferable knowledge hound.. cause now i have to know it ALL before i commit... and i have started contacting breeders off the "official" list
btw my spellign sucks big dogs.. forgive me please. =) |
| Question no 1-
Why do you want to breed? Still not answered....
Just because you like them is not a reason to bring more into this world....and a german shephard and border collie are not anything like the OES....If you like herding breeds like those two, you will be sadly disappointed with an OES... The difference in grooming needs alone is huge....  Never mind the difference in the er-hemmm..."desire to work" ?????
And the only way to guarantee pups from becoming breeding machines is to spay/neuter them before placing...It can be done at 8 weeks of age and it "always" works...
Keep looking for a breeder to help you....One that competes in dog shows, so a dog show may be a good place to start to get some names..and learn the show circuit.... |
| knew i would fail.. bloody pop quizes.. ; )
Breeding by reputable breeders is the best way to ensure a breeds survival. If reputable breeders put the dogs well being and health above all else then that will hopefully pass onto the new owners and thus continue on the line by inspiring future breeders who wish to keep the breed whole n healthy and stable.. german shepards and Border collies are singlemindlty determined and almost addicted to working.. From what i have gathered from this board and from the information and the personal meeting i have had with the breed OES are not as"hyper" a herder as the collie and Shepard.. and if anyone would like to argue me this i will be more than happy to argue that no other dog bar the Border Collie is as single mindly addicted to herding.. those dogs be nuts=P I agree that is the only way to 100% ensure a dog from reproducing.. 8 weeks is too early to nueter a male dog safely imo.. I have had to watch too many dogs be put down due to early castrations causing them horrible pain n suffering.. some it works fine on others it doesnt.. to young.. must wait abit longer for it to be properly done.. so on that score i will do my homework throughly and as i said.. that side of things i am currently looking into placing into my contracts..ie.. you dont fulfill the contract you loose the dog.. but i am having a lawyer look over all that and finish it off.. =) |
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