Has anyone heard of this OES breeder?

I came across this OES breeder's website today and was wondering if anyone has ever heard of it

http://www.oldenglishsheepdogs.com/farmlinks.htm

If you've had any experiences with this breeder, please let me know

Thanks

l.

Respond to this topic here on forum.oes.org

I reviewed their site before. No experience with them, but only some thoughts...

Dogs are not registered, they don't show, they encourage people to keep their dogs outside.

My biggest personal pet peeve is when breeders say thier puppies have been "adopted"....

They were "bought", not adopted....

Also, in different areas it sounds as if they are part of a bunch of breeders, and either they or someone else is marketing the pups for them.

Personally they would not be I would get a puppy from...But I think the link will be removed from your post, anyway.

I think this breeder has been a topic of discussion before....can't remember when.. but it and the pictures ring some bells...... Warning bells.....

Been brought up on on another list.

Bosleys mom says it all in her post and so does dudster "Warning Bells"

Hope you are listening. :wink:

I think someone on the forum got a pup from this breeder. I recognize the pic of the pups in buckets in the back of the van. Years ago we had looked into this breeder because we like the sheepies with tails. Someone had told us not too, tho at the time I thought their reasons didn't make sense. Instead we got ours from a local breeder.

Thanks for the heads up on it. I had some questions about the site as well but wanted several second opinions...

I'll remove the link if I can edit it. Thanks

l.

Yikes, yikes, yikes is all I have to say. There's not enough room on here for all of the yikes that I would like to write.

Did you read the hip certificates on this page?
http://www.oldenglishsheepdogs.com/breeding1.htm

The first one is too young for a definitive test.

The second was circled "FAIR", the lowest (of FAIR, GOOD, or EXCELLENT) possible acceptable score.

They're very proud of these two papers. I wonder what are the results of the other dog's tests, if they have been done?

It is my personal opinion that this breeder is not doing what is best for the breed, or her dogs. I do not feel a "herd" of oes can live happily left outdoors for what appears most of the time without enough human companionship, grooming and general care.
OES are a breed that loves it's family, they need to be with their two leggeds.

Aside from that, I realize many people do not care if a dog is registered, or if it or any of it's ancestors have been shown. No, I do not think a peice of paper from a registry makes the dog, nor does a title from showing. I do however think that a breeder who goes too many generations without showing has lost sight of the standard for the breed.

Showing to me means having your dog evaluated by judges and peers, comparing for yourself against others of the same breed, and promoting the best of our breed.

If breeders do not at least attempt to breed to the standard, make corrections over generations (no dog is without fault), then eventually there would not BE OES. We would have shaggy dogs called OES, but not to the standard of what we know and love.

This breeder's website specifically states many different body and coat types. Does she even know what is correct? Each point of the standard has been developed for a reason. If oes have coats that are too soft and fine, they could not possibly do the work they were intended for.

You don't want a working dog, you just want a pet... ok, well, your pet oes is a breed that you love because breeders have been following a standard. If one breeds away from that standard in one area, such as coat texture, what else is being bred away from? Temperment? Do you want a happy,healthy, mentally stable dog?

As for showing, many people say "Oh, I don't want a showdog, just a pet" so they think they must go to a breeder who has never shown, maybe doesn't register etc... That couldn't be further from the truth.

A breeder who shows has put a LOT of time, effort, energy, education, and money into his or her dogs. To maintain and improve the breed based on the standard.

When they have a litter, they usually want to keep a pup to show. In a litter of let's say 6 puppies, out of generations of champions, there are usually only one or two really spectacular puppies in terms of showing. The other pups in that litter are still gorgeous, loving puppies who will make great pets, but a breeder can't keep everything! LOL Therefore, that breeder has 4 pups that need homes. A breeder LOVES to hear from a person who wants a family pet to love and spoil, they want the best possible home for their baby.

Don't feel that you can't contact the breeder of the dog you saw on tv at Westminster and fell in love with.... that breeder can become your biggest help in raising your new best friend.

Warning bells, warning bells.

I actually met someone at PetsMart and their dog Angus from this breeder. The dog was the same age as Barkley, and was noticeably smaller (and our breeder doesn't breed them large), had weak-looking haunches (well, to me an amateur) and also had a much thinner coat.

The owner said that the breeder doesn't show her dogs because she thinks it's cruel. The owner said the breeder claims that show dogs spend their whole lives in cages, except when they're being shown. :evil:

I'm sure most of the people on this forum know how ridiculous that is.

For anyone who doesn't know... I have met many a "show dog" and seen where they live. They are family members and are probably pampered more than Barkley is, since their coats need to look a lot nicer.

WizardMerlin wrote:

Ah you guys, now I am worried. That is where I got Laika. I never owned a purebred before; just a shelter dog. I really wanted to buy a dog based on the temperament this time. I really looked around. I don’t know I thought they sounded good. You have seen pictures of Laika she is a big health girl; not scrawny and thin coat at all. The reason the breeding dogs are all over North America from what I read and when I talked with the breeder is she got sick and it was too much. I hope you guys are wrong. I want a good doggie… so far Laika seems like that.

Laika does seem like a good dog. There's always that 10% chance that no matter how careful you are and no matter what precautions you take the best breeder could end up with an awful dog or a very sick dog. On the other hand, you can be as reckless and laissez-faire as you want and fate gives you a great dog; that 10% of the time. (That would be the breeder's recklessness!)
The problem with this breeder is that they talk a good game and say they certify health and talk badly about showing and registries so you think they are really in it for the good of the breed. In reality, they are an excellent example of people who are detrimental to this breed.
They have two hip ceritificates on the site, and like Ron said, they are both BAD. One dog is too young for a 'real' certification and the other is CERTIFYING that the dog has fair hips (most people don't breed Normal and below let alone Fair!).
They also show the AKC pedigree for their stud dog. That is a hallmark pedigree for byb or puppy mill people. Nothing concrete on that front but most of the time those type of people use the dumb, short names on their dogs because they are easy to remember and don't take much effort to write down. (Sorry, there's that sarcasm again!) There is not one "kennel' name amongst those generations. A kennel name does not give you status but it helps you track a line and shows that the person is proud of the work they've done and that they are taking accountability of the dogs they have had a hand in breeding.
It's a whole other thing if you don't want to register your dogs with one of the 'commercial' registries. If that is your choice you had better have a damn good reason for it and you'd better be keeping impeccable records of your dogs. Once again, it's about accountability. If you learn of a health issue in your line, you'd better be able to track where that dog came from, who the parents and siblings are and what future generations might be affected. That is also limiting your puppy buyers from participating in some events that are sanctioned. UKC will give you a number to participate in their performance events (performance only, no conformation from them) so that is only a minor inconvenience but an inconvenience none the less.
They are also breeding multiple girls with the same boy. That's the best way that you don't confuse who is making babies. :wink:

He has to be the father, he's the only one here! They also let their dogs run free, who's to say that there's not a rogue dog out there who is really excited for a night on the town? Where do those pups go, the humane society? Or are we marketing those as "designer dogs"? I stopped looking at some point but I know they had mothers and daughters there, I hope they are not randomly breeding daughter back to father. It can be done but very few people do it and they have very strong and educated reasons for doing it.
They say that they are rotating their dogs out when they "retire". They are happily living on random farms in the countryside. Running wild? These dogs belong on people's couches and in their beds! They are very bonded to people because that's what their task in life is. Stay close and listen to the human to control this livestock and do our job. Therefor, we need to stay close to the human!

I am so offended by the show dog crap that goes around everywhere that I will only say one thing about it. The show people that I know, love and care for these dogs like family. Anyone that has been to my house or that has met my dogs knows that they are dogs and family members first, perfect little Ken or Barbie models second. If they aren't happy, we do whatever it takes to make them happy. If they want to sit at home, they sit at home. If they want to run and play, they run and play. Yes, we are more careful with their coats but that is the only difference with them! For anyone that wants to make another comment about show dogs, you are more than welcome to come out with me and see what it is really like. If you do not have experience in something, don't go talking out of the side of your mouth about something you have no experience in!

The purpose of dog shows is a completely different thing. There are politics and all of that but the purpose of a conformation show still stands; verify and evaluate breeding stock. The judge says who has the best dog of the day. You might have a good dog that beats mediocre dogs but that is where ethics kicks in and people need to decide if what they are doing is right. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. For people who don't show, what makes them so presumptuous as to think they have dogs worthy of breeding? Everybody thinks that they have the best kids but love can make you tunnel visioned and nearsighted. A, so to say, disinterested third party really is necessary to help sort out the good from the great and beyond that, the spectacular. There's another thing that makes you blind but we won't talk about money here. :oops:

Alright, I'm fired up enough for one day. Happy editing Ron!!!

The only edit that I made was to change your percentages to 10%.

I want to add that this doesn't mean that dogs with questionable backgrounds are BAD DOGS. They are GOOD DOGS! They may have some health problems, and they should not be bred, but that doesn't mean that they are any less loving, caring great companion animals.

We're just worried FOR THEM that their parentage may not provide them with a long and the healthiest future possible, and we'd like for breeders to be more responsible.

Many many GREAT PETS have come from less than perfect beginnings, and NOBODY is "looking down their nose" at you or your dog, if someone says something bad about their background.

I have had contact with MANY MANY GREAT DOGS in RESCUE that mostly come from non-show backgrounds, and they are GREAT DOGS.

Point made?

^^^^^^^What he said!!^^^^^^^

No bad dogs, just bad people for not being as careful as possible when they make dogs. They don't ask to be brought into this world so we have to take as good care of them as we possible can that includes their planning!!!!

My first OES was a pet store dog, my second was a puppy mill dog, my third is a backyard breeder dog and my last two are show dogs from WELL respected breeders. Because they had a great start in life and are very physically sound I feel like my supporting those good breeders gave those two dogs the best chance to have a great life. Carl, my backyard breeder dog, is happy, well fed, very well loved (did I mention he has his own dresser drawer for sweatshirts because he's cold and needed a wardrobe? :roll:

) but I worry that he will have orthopedic or other health problems later in life because he had a bad start and is not physically correct. His body is too long and his legs are very straight which will lead to joint problems because he isn't built properly. I don't wish that I didn't buy him (dogs are bought, not adopted) but I do wish that he had a better start so that he wouldn't have this cloud hanging over him of looming problems.

We can only do the best that we can and fight for what we think is right. :wink:

I think what really hooked me was that she guarantees them for life.

Well here's hoping I didn't make a mistakes guys. I wish I found you guys to ask question before. Well I am giving her a good start I think, the best food and health care and tons of love. And she does stay inside :lol:

when I can get her too, she loves it outside. I have to force her in to hang with me.

Well I want to get a boy eventually so I know now to go else where. But I honestly don't think they are bad people. But I also worry about things that have been said here. So I will take heed.

Thanks everyone!

spacegirl21 wrote:

she does stay inside :lol:

when I can get her too, she loves it outside. I have to force her in to hang with me.

boy do i understand that one

spacegirl21 wrote:

I think what really hooked me was that she guarantees them for life.

Pssst, I don't want to be the bearer of bad news but she just promises a replacement dog if a genetic health problem is diagnosed. She doesn't say she'll split vet bills or help you with anything. She doesn't even say that they won't have health problems but if they do she'll give you another dog. She'd probably want Laika back for you to get the replacement dog too.
She's got enough moms running around to throw a puppy your way without taking a big hit in her wallet either. (I don't know this person nor have I interracted with them, it's all what is portrayed on their website!Apparently today is my day to be the downer.)

On a side note, I really think Laika is one of the cutest sheepdogs here! She is obviously well loved and well cared for and after seeing her coat blowing in the wind at the beach, if you want a job brushing dogs, you are more than welcome to come to my house!!!

I totaly agree with Maxmm!! Laika is ONE of the most BEAUTIFUL sheepdogs I've seen.. she has personality plus, she is with a family that would probably move heaven and earth for her.. what every health problem come her way.. and God forbid.. that should ever happen.. and I hope beyond hope that it never does... that she will be well taken care off, she is a lucky girl.

We have this forum.. to educate on situations like this before they happen.. if someone finds us after the fact, then we are here to support them.

Thanks guys, well nothing I can do now. She seems fit. Cross-fingers she stays a health dog. Better to learn sooner than later.

I am sorry people are being negative about Laika's breeder. I think that just as the people who show were upset about some people's perception without knowledge of the show world, these people are just as guilty about judging someone who they have had no experience with.

I looked into getting a pup from Sue and almost did. We really had wanted a sheepie without a docked tail. I think they are beautiful with their tails. We went to several breeders in our area and one well known in the show world. Their dogs were kept in crates in their garage. They were not house dogs. We wanted a pet not a show dog.

What I have found is the 'show' people stick together and anyone not in their clique is a bad breeder in their opinion. When I first got Merlin my breeder did not show. She didn't like all the politics surrounding the show world and she felt she did not have a thick enough skin to take the criticism from other breeders. Well you would have thought I bought my dog from the devil the way people went on about how she was a back yard breeder etc etc etc. (not on this forum...people here are WAY more accepting) Guess what...now she shows her dog and all of a sudden she is accepted. In my opinion a show dog doesn't mean they are a good dog...ok they might look nice but what about temperament. There are some high hifalutin show people who other people (rescue) told me NOT to get a dog from these show people because their temperament was bad. I think you have to trust your own instincts because everyone will feel like they know it all. I certainly don't know it all.

spacegirl21 wrote:

Thanks guys, well nothing I can do now. She seems fit. Cross-fingers she stays a health dog. Better to learn sooner than later.

Please don't worry about the health of your dog. My first OES was a pet store (probably puppy mill) and he lived to age 13 and was pretty active until the last month before he died.

Just adding my 2¢ here. It is so difficult to educate people about how to find a respectable breeder. Just recently, a client of mine was looking for a Beagle pup, after her first one had died prematurely to health issues. With that known she really wanted to have a "healthy" pup this time. I gave her so much information about the parent breed clubs & referrals, and even gave her contact info to the local kennel club. She ended up going with a backyard breeder "who seemed really nice" she also "had a live puppy cam video set up that you can look online & see your puppy". The breeder wasn't on any of the referral lists, etc. Also the breeder released the puppy at 7 weeks old! How much can you really do to give people the right information when they will do want they want anyhow? I just have to bite my tongue.

Do we really make a difference here posting over & over again how to buy a puppy? I hope in the long run we do. I guess there still isn't enough information out there about puppy mills, etc.

If people want to be "backyard breeders" that is fine, but I wish they would do so much more to ensure the health of their dogs and not encourage people to go out and "breed" them on their own.

WizardMerlin wrote:

I looked into getting a pup from Sue and almost did. We really had wanted a sheepie without a docked tail. I think they are beautiful with their tails. We went to several breeders in our area and one well known in the show world. Their dogs were kept in crates in their garage. They were not house dogs. We wanted a pet not a show dog.

What I have found is the 'show' people stick together and anyone not in their clique is a bad breeder in their opinion. When I first got Merlin my breeder did not show. She didn't like all the politics surrounding the show world and she felt she did not have a thick enough skin to take the criticism from other breeders. Well you would have thought I bought my dog from the devil the way people went on about how she was a back yard breeder etc etc etc. (not on this forum...people here are WAY more accepting) Guess what...now she shows her dog and all of a sudden she is accepted. In my opinion a show dog doesn't mean they are a good dog...ok they might look nice but what about temperament. There are some high hifalutin show people who other people (rescue) told me NOT to get a dog from these show people because their temperament was bad. I think you have to trust your own instincts because everyone will feel like they know it all. I certainly don't know it all.

While I agree that a lot of dog breeders out there can be rather cliqueish and negative towards other breeders has a lot more to do with things they've experienced through the years. I know one breeder in particular, who is well known, that hid the fact that Cerebellar Ataxia was showing up in their bloodlines. You can feel the tension at a dog show when they are around. As you say that dog show people stick together, it's because they are trying so hard to preserve the breed. A lot of these backyard breeders are just out there breeding willy nilly. Is it really that hard to understand why they are so outspoken about certain breeders? This battle will always be there and the breeders that I've gotten to be friends with are much more concerned about their dog being a good family member more than anything else.

When people are breeding dogs I always ask "why"? If people don't test their dogs, and don't show them, and don't care about breeding to the standard, then the only reason left is money.

Making money bringing puppies into this world, and not making sure they are spayed/neuterd so they do not contribute to the pet over-population problem,,,well that is just wrong.

Everyone is either part of the solution or part of the problem. Pick a side and support that side by putting your money into the hands of someone who truely cares about all the homeless dogs out there....and who makes sure that their pups never end up in a shelter or a rescue as an adult....

And if I went to a show breeder's home and all the dogs were in crates in the garage, then I would leave and go see another show breeder who treats their dogs like family members....after I reported them to the Breed Club who recommmeded them, and suggest they be removed for a referral list.

Like I said I don't know much about purebreds, and I don't want to rustle any feathers, but other than the breeder mentioned not certifying her dogs. I think she seems very conscious. Her web site if very informative, she isn’t hiding anything. She has all the health forums. I went with her cause she did have all the info there, I live in Nova Scotia there isn’t many breeders of any breed here. So I cannot drive and check things out thousands of miles. Thank you WizardMerlin you made me feel better. I didn’t want a show dog, I just wanted a dog with a good temperament (and healthy of course). My last dog was a shelter dog a big dog and she lived for almost 17 years very unheard of, but she didn’t have the best temperament, she lived for me and she was my best friend. But I didn’t want to go through that again, even though I am a huge advocate in adopting shelter dogs. Anyways, perhaps her dogs are not top of the line, but what I got seems pretty darn good to me. I knew I wasn’t getting a certified show dog. She has the entire descendants on the site also, they all look like health dogs and happy owners. I was really getting worried by all the talk, but I went back to her site and I don’t think it is deceiving.

wow that is long don't think I ever wrote anything that long.

For those that made points about preserving the breed standard I would like to add this:

If you read on this page about the Dam named Eir (halfway down):
http://www.oldenglishsheepdogs.com/breeding1.htm

She is a brindle OES that they are breeding because "I decided to try and bring back this impressive coloring".

Whaaa......

Maxmm wrote:

spacegirl21 wrote:

I think what really hooked me was that she guarantees them for life.

Should a pup develop any genetic health problem as confirmed by a veterinarian I will refund the price of the pup or replace the pup (your choice).

She says refund also, I am not sure people are really reading her web site, I am going back and read again. I think you are all jumping to conclusions. Do breeders actually pay for vet bills, really??

Also:
Each of our dogs has a rating of “good” or “excellent” for their hips and I do not breed any dogs with only a “fair” rating.

I guess I am starting to get a little defensive... :roll:

Perhaps everyone should go back and read again. Instead of skimming and jumping to conclusions as soon as you read she doesn't register her pups.

"Our pups are not registered although all pups are sired by a registered OES"

I don't want to get into a huge debate, it makes me sick, conflict... everyone has there opinion that is great. But I actually was getting kind of worried the way you all were going on. But you know I don't feel like that anymore. I have a great dog.

By the way EIR is Laika's Mama.

Remember, nobody is saying that Laika is a bad dog!

Who does she say is the sire?

I took your advice and started reading more carefully - there is so much information!

You're right - she's very open and honest.

I was looking at a bunch of the hip-checks and saw a few that were done before age 18 months (before hips can be certified) and apparently weren't redone, i.e. Fulla's report is at age 9 months (3 years ago), Idun's report specifically requests that they redo the test after age 18 months, etc. Of course, the tests might have been done but not updated on the webpage.

Then I found Thora's test showed Moderate Hip Displaysia. So I went to check if she'd be bred. Apparently she had been bred before they knew she had hip problems (and apparently before they'd made sure she didn't have hip problems - test was done at age 3 yrs.).

They did do the right thing, though. They had her spayed and adopted her out as a pet..... wonder if they'll pay her vet bills for her hips?

They do seem to have good intentions... but with so much information available on their website, it's easy for people on this forum to find something to critique.

Laika is an absolutely beautiful sheepdog. I hope Barkley grows up to be so beautiful and sweet. Sorry we've made you feel like you need to be defensive.

Sheepie Heaven wrote:

I think all that means is some other kind of dog wandered through the farm.

Just so you all know, those "hip certifications" are not real.

In Canada they are sent to Guelph University, and are certified with either a pass or a fail. No grading. They cannot be certified before 18 months.
What she has done is simply had xrays done and had the vet give his opinion. It is not actually certified.

Now, I could be wrong on the definitions here so if anyone is more certain please correct me, BUT, in Canada I believe a pass has to be equivalent to good or excellent for OFA in the states. Anything less than that is then considered hip dysplasia to varying degrees.

What that tells me is that her dogs have had xrays, in some cases too young to know anything for sure, and that her own vet has said they are "fair" (some) I would bet if sent for actual certification they would fail.
Just my personal opinion.

spacegirl21, Laika IS a beautiful girl, and sounds like a doll. You are one of the lucky ones I think... my first oes was a rescue from (we think) a puppy mill. She was no where near the standard, she was insane and had every behavior problem you can think of. I loved her very much and miss her every day, where she came from and what she was had nothing to do with how much I loved her. It does anger me though to think of the constant anxiety my poor girl seemed to feel, a result of bad breeding and bad living conditions for her first formative weeks.

No one thinks Laika is a bad dog, or thinks you are a bad person for buying her, we are just discussing our own reasons for wanting to educate people about the breed, reputable breeders, mills and byb's etc.
I think this is an excellent discussion to have on this forum, and I hope that if nothing else people will be very, very careful when choosing a breeder.

WizardMerlin wrote:

What I have found is the 'show' people stick together and anyone not in their clique is a bad breeder in their opinion. When I first got Merlin my breeder did not show. She didn't like all the politics surrounding the show world and she felt she did not have a thick enough skin to take the criticism from other breeders. Well you would have thought I bought my dog from the devil the way people went on about how she was a back yard breeder etc etc etc. (not on this forum...people here are WAY more accepting) Guess what...now she shows her dog and all of a sudden she is accepted. In my opinion a show dog doesn't mean they are a good dog...ok they might look nice but what about temperament. There are some high hifalutin show people who other people (rescue) told me NOT to get a dog from these show people because their temperament was bad. I think you have to trust your own instincts because everyone will feel like they know it all. I certainly don't know it all.

I strongly disagree with your statement. Not all "show people" stick togther, nor are we all the same. And we are not all bad. I have been showing my sheepdogs since I was 11, and I absolutely love it. My breeding program is based on trying to not only breed to the standard so that sheepdogs remain looking as they should, but also to breed and raise my dogs so they have the temperments that they should. And lets not forget health!! If my dogs were to develop ANY health problem, EVERYONE would hear about it, and if there was a possibility of heredity, the dog would be pulled from my breeding program. My dogs live in my home and my pups are raised with immense socialization. I am so proud of my dogs temperments. In my opinion, showing dogs is a hobby that requires not only a beautiful dog, but as well as a great tempered dog and a healthy one! Now, I have sold a pup to a breeder who has never showed any of her dogs, however, my stipulation was that he must attain his Championship as well as his health clearances before she was allowed to breed him. She, just like the person you are referring to, does not have any interest in dog shows, so I have been showing the dog for her. Now, as far as politics go, I can honestly say that when my dog wins its not because of who I know, its because the judge felt mine was the best. I have no political pull in the ring, which is the way I like it. When I win I know it is deserving. I want only my best dogs to be used in anyones breeding program. Its my Blueshire name attached to the dog, whether its a family pet, or a showdog.

Quote:

And if I went to a show breeder's home and all the dogs were in crates in the garage, then I would leave and go see another show breeder who treats their dogs like family members....after I reported them to the Breed Club who recommmeded them, and suggest they be removed for a referral list.

Well...since we got the breeders name from Dogs in Canada we didnt even know there was a breeder referral. Twelve years prior we went to a breeder...this one also had the dogs in crates in a garage, we assumed (wrongly I know now) that this was the norm. We got a dog from that breeder...it was a stud no longer in use. The dog had NO personality...we returned that dog to the breeder after a week. All the dog did was lay down, didn't want to go for walks, didn't know how to play, and didn't want to be pet.

Quote:

I know one breeder in particular, who is well known, that hid the fact that Cerebellar Ataxia was showing up in their bloodlines. You can feel the tension at a dog show when they are around. As you say that dog show people stick together, it's because they are trying so hard to preserve the breed.

And is this particular breeder still referred by the breeder referral? If so...how is one to KNOW this breeder is no good? :cry:

I believe that an open and honest discussion is vital to education for everybody. No one in this world is perfect and no one knows everything. Everytime something like this comes up, we all gain more knowledge and perspective. If you feel that you are right about an issue, discussing it serves to either change your beliefs or strengthen them.
No one is attacking anyone here about their own dog, it just happens that this is the breeder and site that came up. The information can be translated to anyone's site, it's just the examples that are specific.

Okay, here is where my info came from. On the website, under puppies it only lists one pedigree and one health cert. That is for their sire of the 2001 litters. It shows him with Fair hips and mild elbow dysplasia, they still bred him. That would be the health info we were referring too.
It is also on that page where it says: "We guarantee for the life of each pup to be of sound temperament and we will provide a replacement pup for any dog that develops any hereditary health problem, as confirmed by a veterinarian." When that's all the information that is given it usually means that you have one choice and that's to give your pup back and get a new one. Most of the time, the contract that you would sign would go into more depth. With so much information spread out over this website, it's hard to keep up with. You see that statement and think that's the limit of the information they are offering.

The Health page is where there is more health cert info. The do not use OFA, it looks like Penn Hip where they compare the xrays against others of the same breed. The pool of xrays to compare in sheepdogs is not very large which can lead to some problems with this method. That's a whole other boat though and is more about preference, etc. But, on this page it also shows Thora's hip cert and plainly states that she has hip dysplasia. Any signs of dysplasia are too much. On the other page, it says that Thora is retired. She was spayed when she threw a pup with dysplasia. So, did they not certify her before breeding her or did they have her examined after the fact to find it or did the know she was dysplastic and bred her anyway? They did do the right thing by spaying her once it was discovered but did they do the right thing in the first place by breeding her?

I know of several breeders who have helped with vet bills for dogs injured in falls or during play or who have a birth defect that is found later. They certainly do everything they can to take care of dogs that they bred. Now we all know that they can't pay every bill for every dog they brede that sneezes but the people whom I know think of these pups as their children for life and will do whatever they can to help them if their owners are unable to. They chose to bring them into this world, they feel responsible for them until the day they die.
When I speak of show people, I speak of the people that I know and whom I have chosen to associate myself with. I cannot speak for every show person, just as no banker can speak for every bank or any other generalization. I know that myself and the other show people that I "hang with", love our dogs and this breed. We fight very hard so that each dog has the best opportunities in life from before conception on. We are together because we have similar views and goals in life. (And no, they aren't ribbons and awards!) It isn't all cliques and poitics, people have opinions and reasons for them. I like to think that my opinions are based solidly in education and logic. I pride myself on being quite Spock-like but some people can be very emotional in their views and that is where the nastiness really comes from.

You don't need to show to have a good dog, you need to love your dog and take care of your dog and do the best you possibly can for them!

Wow, in the time it took me to type that there have been about 5 more posts that all pretty much say the same thing I was writing. D'oh!

How can you disagree with how I feel or my experience. I only write how I feel and my experiences with breeders and show people. I never met you so I have no opinion about you. You never met me so how can you say what I have experienced is wrong. I am stating what happened to me on another board. I feel my breeder has the best intention of the breed. Others felt differently...so much so I was ostracized for getting my dog from that breeder. Funny now that my breeder shows her dogs or has them shown she is now accepted.

Each person is just posting their own opinions in most cases....

I don't think Blueshire meant to disagree with your feelings but simply to clarify how things work with her, and to illustrate that not every breeder is the same.... show or not...

I never said every breeder was the same or every show person was the same.....maybe people should read the posts more than once before replying..I just stated MY personal experiences. I would never assume to generalize about something that I really have no clue about (breeding or showing)

WizardMerlin wrote:

I am not disagreeing with your personal experiences, rather your conclusion, which you stated "All show people stick together and anyone not in their clique is a bad breeder".

I just wanted to point out that I am a "Show Person", and I wanted to point out that I dont feel that way, since I have in fact sold a pup to a breeder who does not show. I just gave my reasons why I think showing is important.

Thats all!!!!

WizardMerlin wrote:

And is this particular breeder still referred by the breeder referral? If so...how is one to KNOW this breeder is no good? :cry:

This breeder is not on the referral. I am trying reallly hard not to say "he or she" so I'm saying "they". They ultimately stopped the bloodline that had the CA showing up due to the peer pressure. The people who bred with them found out after the fact, that they did have knowledge about it in the bloodline, and did not disclose it to the people whose dogs were being bred to, multiply that fact by how many puppies? So many of the other breeders are still unhappy about it to this day. Things can always crop up in breeding lines, but so much trust goes into the breeder doing the right thing about ending the bloodline, and making sure the health issue doesn't continue.

I just wanted to add that even though the breeder referral is available, it's definitely not gospel about who to buy a puppy from. I do worry about this thread topic being so heated that other people might steer clear about asking about certain breeders that are not on the referral list in fear of getting flamed. It's really all about educating about things that might throw up red flags.

I had my first oes in 1988, started showing and had my first litter in 1991.
When my first husband died i stopped with showing, and when the dogs were all in heaven i had 5 years without oes.

Then my dream came true!
Finally i was able to buy an oes from the usa.
A few months later i went to a clubshow after soooo many years with charlotte.
I bumped into a breeder who was very succesfull with a female she bought once of me.
That female gave birth to many champions....

I told her how happy i was to have an oes again and to meet and catch up with old friends!
She asked me where i got charlotte from...
I told her from the usa.
Well the friendlyness was straight gone....she told me that there were many health problems with usa oes..

As far as i can see it it was this green jealous little monster speaking out of her mouth!
I was so dissapointed!

I now what i am doing, i am an assistent veterinarian myself, got my papers for that when i started breeding.
I could have told her the reason why i got charlotte......but i didn't.
If people r so shortminded then they can be without me.

For me the most important thing is to have happy healthy dogs who give me much pleasure.

Hi everyone, I have been enjoying this forum for a while now, ever since I got Max, my beautiful sheepdog who is also from Laika's breeder. I'm not here to debate anything, only to say I have had a very positive experience with my OES. The breeder in question was very up front with me and we communicated by phone and very frequent emails. Max and two of his sisters were shipped to me here in Portland, Oregon ( his sisters went to two other families) the transition was flawless. By the way, Max's sisters are equally as gorgeous as Laika. So I, like Laika's owner, am another lucky one!! Max will be two years at the end of the month, he is 100 lbs. of goofy, loveable fluff. There is nothing scrawny or sickly about him. This forum is full of beautiful OES and I think Max and Laika are just as beautiful as all the others. I'm not trying to sound defensive, I just thought I'd point out that Laika's not alone. Thank you all for listening to me

,

Sharon

Hi Sharon,

Welcome to the forum from Nova Scotia...I check out your pictures.. Max is absoutley gorgeous!!!.. I love his markings.

What a snuggle bug.

I am honored that so many people have nothing better to do than scour my website for "flaws" - at least while they attempt to decimate me they are leaving some other poor soul alone! I would like to send you an attachment on my philosphy for raising OES, (please give me an email to send it to) we offer contact with 95% of our pups, which is more than any show breeder can claim and can forward tons of references including posting contact info for our veterinarians and the Professor of Orthopaedics at University of Saskatchewan Veterinary College! Too bad these folks don't find something meaningful to do with their time, like train their dogs in programs for terminally ill children etc etc. which many of our pups are proficient in. Maybe the breeders disouytign the helath of our dogs cannto keep a dozen OES togetehr - because they don't have temeperaments that can be trusted like our wonderful dogs! Laika is not a fluke she is typical of all our pups!

I don't think anyone here is out to pick your web site apart for anything. Someone asked a question and many of our experienced members looked it over and gave their opinion.

I don't disagree that your heart is in the right place and that your dogs may have lovely temperaments but I think you're going to find it very difficult to find a lot of support from people who love and work hard to preserve the breed when you're a breeder that isn't breeding for the standard. As someone else mentioned, whether you agree with showing or not, it is a way for dogs to be judged impartially for conformation.

Brown/brindle OES? Leaving tails on "just to see what it would be like"? Less than stellar hip certifications? It just makes no sense to breed dogs of that caliber. They're great pets and should be loved just the same but breeding them is a disservice to the Old English Sheepdog breed.

We welcome your viewpoint. Please post your philosophy on the forum-- just cut and paste it here.

Quote:

Laika is not a fluke she is typical of all our pups!

just to reiterate, Max is another success story from Sue's farm and a wonderful example of OES. I'm proud to have him!!

Sharon

personss wrote:

Quote:

Laika is not a fluke she is typical of all our pups!

just to reiterate, Max is another success story from Sue's farm and a wonderful example of OES. I'm proud to have him!!

Sharon

He is adorable... but is he to standard? Just because a dog is cute and loveable does not mean it should be bred. (No I'm not saying you are breeding him, just trying to point something out)

sues.oesdogs@yahoo.com wrote:

I would like to send you an attachment on my philosphy for raising OES, (please give me an email to send it to)

I am interested in seeing your philosophy of raising OES too but am unwilling to post my private email publicly on the forum. Please cut & paste so that we can check it out or if you sign up as a member you can send a personal message privately to each member.

As far as your comments regarding the concern for our time, if you peruse this board you can see how wrapped up we are in our dogs including conformation, agility, herding, obedience, therapy, etc.

Hi Willowsprite, I totally understand where you are coming from, along with everyone else on this forum. I don't pretend to be an expert at all, I'm just a regular person with a lot of common sense. When someone like myself looks into the standards of this breed, I believe my dog meets those standards. And, of course, I'm not breeding my dog, he is neutured. I understand the difference between adorable and meeting the standard, but I think my dog has both. Just my thoughts,

Sharon

Thank you Lisa, I read your first responses where you said things like "I wish I had talked to you all sooner" Or "I hope my dog remains healthy". People are obviously illiterate and uneducated who participate in this forum, grabbing at jealous straws, they refer to hip xrays of fair rating being bred. We once bred Thora who produced a pup with hip problems, she was bred at two years but before her two year exam, she was immediately spayed and retired. Idun also produced a pup with hip problems and was also retired although she herself had a normal rating! The only other dog to have a fair rating was Modi, Here is his story - he was registered, he was from champion show lines, he was inbred ( a nice name for incest in dogs) and we purchased him specifically for breeding at $2500 and his owner refused to compensate for his fair rating of hips or his total lack of sperm!

Born on April 4th 2001
Bred by Barbara Hughes Ladrigue and Frances Fine

Barbara Hughes resides in Bay City MI

France Fine resides in Southgate MI

Modi’s Mother was Pickwick Fine Sabrina Fair, her parents were Pickwick Fine Pooh Bear and Pickwick Fabulous Fine Fox

Modi’s Father was Pickwick Fine Mighty Montgomery, his parents were Pickwick Fine Pooh Bear and Pickwick Tojo Patriot Patty

You can see from this pedigree both parents had the same father, Pickwick Fine Pooh Bear

Modi came to us from a strong and impressive line of Champions, and we believed him to offer a strong genetic health background to our breeding program. We were so very wrong!

In spring of 2002 it became apparent that Modi would have difficulty breeding and surgery had be performed, namely "phemosis and paraphemosis’ or more commonly described as circumcision.

As summer progressed, Modi began limping, first with one front foot then the other. Repeated trips to the vet could not determine any cause. Finally x-rays were taken early in July which discovered signs of early arthritic changes in his bone structure on his front legs. At the same time follow up tests were done regarding his breeding ability and it was determined he had a zero sperm count.

On July 17th I sent a letter from our veterinarian to Modi’s breeders, to confirm what I had brought to their attention verbally in the previous weeks. Barbara Hughes wanted time to decide if she was going to extend her usual 48 hour health guarantee to cover Modi’s genetic health problems. Following repeat phone calls I gave Barbara until September 15th to decide if she was going to accept responsibility for the in-line breeding that I believe caused Modi’s health issues. September 15th has come to pass and Barbara has not accepted any responsibility, continuing to live by her 48 hour guarantee!

I would like to point out that Modi’s health problems would not be considered unhealthy by the AKC, and Barbara has said the arthritic front legs are not cause for concern or shouldn’t stop him breeding; that his hips are excellent so disregard his arthritic front legs! That is if he could breed of course! Either way, his health is nowhere near the standards I require for him to be included in our breeding program.

Modi is presently staying with my husband who operates a mobile laboratory working on rural drinking water projects in remote areas, the people working on the project love him to bits, one person has offered to give him a home on a Bison ranch.

I continue to reaffirm my guarantee, that for the life of any of our pups, should they develop any genetic health disorder as confirmed by a Veterinarian I will replace that pup without question!

I will not spend any more time on this disgusting forum of disconnected people, however I challenge any OES breeder anywhere that if they would like to be a part of our OES family they too can be featured on our website, so long as they subscribe to the same philosophy for breeding and and do all genetic health tests of their dogs and offer lifetime guarantee of all their pups - I doubt any of them can measure up! Here is my philosphy for those who appear to be uanble to read my website accurately!

We raise Old English Sheepdog Puppies, guaranteed not for two years, not for three years, but for their lifetime! Should a pup develop any genetic health problem as confirmed by a veterinarian I will refund the price of the pup or replace the pup (your choice). Visit www.oldenglishsheepdogs.com to meet the extended family of OES all over North America and I am happy to put you in touch with many references close to you. Also on our website is a link to our veterinarian, Dr. Haider Elbermani who is happy to answer your calls and confirm the good health of all of our dogs.

On our website you can read about the wonderful temperaments of these great dogs, their personal characteristics and their excellent health. For my own health reasons I have recently placed some of our dogs in new homes to continue our breeding program. Fulla now lives in New York state; Eir is in another home here in Saskatchewan, Thrud is here at home but will be leaving for her new home soon. Saga is in her new home in San Francisco, California and Hel now lives in Abbotsford, British Columbia. All our dogs are checked for Thyroid, Heart, and Eyes as well as x-rays to certify their Hips and Elbows. Each of our dogs has a rating of “good” or “excellent” for their hips and I do not breed any dogs with only a “fair” rating. All health reports are posted on line for you to download and verify.

All of our dogs have dark brown gentle eyes, I do not breed any dogs with blue eyes, this is because if you breed adults with blue eyes and white heads then the pups will be predisposed to deafness. Occasionally a pup is born with either blue eyes or one blue and one brown eye, but 90% of our pups have dark brown eyes.

Every one of our dogs is great with children, I can trust them all with our young grand daughter – even when they are giving birth to their pups. Friends children often come by to play with the dogs and pups, even a child who is afraid of dogs when they arrive here is comfortable with them when they leave.

Each of our litters could be registered with AKC or CKC, however I do not register our pups as I feel these organizations should put the health of the animals ahead of ribbons in the show ring. As long as AKC and CKC continue to register litters when the parents have previously produced pups with genetic health problems, or as long as they register pups who have not been certified for Hips and Elbows (at a minimum) I will refuse to register my litters with them. Each of my pups is bred to take first place in Genetic Health, which is how I can offer the guarantee which I give!

All pups receive their first vaccinations at 8 weeks of age, it is futile to give them sooner as pups maintain an immunity from their mothers milk for one month after they are weaned. I arrange all pups travel to be as least disruptive as possible to the pup and at no time do our pups stay in commercial kennels en route.

Our pups sell for $900, $900 CAD for Canadian families and $900US for American families. We are happy to quote travel arrangements for you. All families get to pick their pups in order of their deposit being received, a deposit of $100 will hold a pup for you. If you are serious about adopting a pup from us then please tell me about the home you have waiting for an OES. Once I agree for you to adopt a pup from us then our relationship is based on old fashioned trust, as I despise contracts as much as I despise the show ring

If you are interested in an Old English Sheepdog then you should know they are teddy bears in disguise, they think they are human, they have personality plus and they love to be with their new family 24/7. They will bring endless love and happiness to their new family, but please realize the time commitment you invest in your new puppy will directly reflect in the bond and relationship you develop with them. I welcome phone calls at [phone number removed]and everyone is welcome to visit our farm at any time, no appointments are necessary.

Peace
Sue Peterson
Phone: [phone number removed]

No where in this "philosophy" do I see anything about actually breeding for the standard-- and I don't think insulting the forum members by calling us illiterate and uneducated is the way to make a strong point. We're perfectly able to read, which is why we question your breeding program and practices. No one is jealous (I have no idea what you even mean by that) but we do care greatly about the breed.

Quote:

The only other dog to have a fair rating was Modi, Here is his story - he was registered, he was from champion show lines, he was inbred ( a nice name for incest in dogs) and we purchased him specifically for breeding at $2500

So what you're saying, is you bought a dog with a fair hip rating to breed with? Or did you buy him before his hip ratings were done?

As a member of this disgusting forum I certainly wouldn't spend any time refering or recommending a breeder who doesn't know what dog has what lines that carry bad hips. Complete pedigrees are funny that way....you can actually track where problems come from down the previous line.

A breeder that does not do anything but contribute to the pet overpopulation problem, and has no interest in preventing further breeding of unregistered pets, or ensuring that they come back if it doesn't work out, is doing just that.

I would never support an irresponsible breeder who makes money on the backs of backyard dogs.

I am happy for all the folks on this forum that have thier OES babies. I just hope that education will ensure that the right breeders are supported. Just because a dog CAN be bred, doesn't mean that it SHOULD be bred. Many dogs in rescue and shelteres are not registered so that the breeder can NOT be identiified. Geez, and I was just wondering where all those dogs came from! Now I know.

I can assure you that I am not both illiterate and uneducated nor am I disconnected, whatever you mean by that.

I find it fascinating that you choose to make personal attacks on members of this forum who have done nothing but question the approach that is being taken by your kennel. Nobody here has called you a name, or called you a bad person.

I find it further interesting that you exclaim that you aren't going to spend any more time on this "disgusting forum" then proceed to use it to both air your grievences with another breeder and also in an attempt at blatant advertising for your own program.

Regarding your assertion that no dogs with a fair rating is bred, that might be technically true that you are not currently breeding dogs with a fair rating, although I'd really be interested in seeing your hip certifications for your current Sires and Dams. Are you breeding dogs younger than 2 years old, and/or have not yet had hip certifications?

I also direct your attention to your own website where you show a dog Monty that produced ALL of your litters for the entire year of 2001 ("Monty fathered all pups born here in 2001."), whose hip evaluation is shown as "fair". It seems that you bred him too early; you didn't have his hips checked until after he sired all of your pups for the year, and then his evaluation showed only "Fair" hips.

Here's a close up:

Please feel free to explain and or defend your kennel here, but please refrain from ad hominem attacks on our members.

Your philosphy seems to contradict itself repeatedly. Maybe that is just because I can't read :roll:

For example, on another section of your website it says only your one male is registered, not your females. Yet you state your pups *could* be AKC or CKC registered. That is not possible to register pups from unregistered parents with unknown lineage.

I can bet if you had DNA testing done on your "brindles" you would find they're not even old english sheepdogs.

It's kind of random that I ended up finding this. I was actually looking for information on the University of Guelph's hip certification program, as was mentioned earlier in this post.

The first link lead me to a Vizslas' breeder's website (nice lookin' dogs but sound too high-energy for me - running 1 hour per day... ha!).

This breeder has a statement of ethics which can apply to a breeder of any breed. I think it's something that's worth reading.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/~smulley/ethics.html

Wow - that link looked great. It was so detailed and well-written. She must have taken a great deal of time to pen something so well thought out. Thanks for posting it!

Excellent article, thanks for posting the link.

Sheepie Heaven wrote:

We did get a dog from Sue and I can say nothing wrong about this breeder. Very professional and backs up her dogs genetic health for the life of the dog.

Imagine my surprise to find my dog being discussed on this forum. I did meet you in Petsmart ( where you were training your dog?) I feel it is my responsiblity to mention the fact that as you yourself say you are an ameteur and therefore should not be belittling other peoples pets. Congratulations to you for meeting many a show dog but until you are a show dog judge keep your opinions on other peoples dogs to YOURSELF!

It is interesting all your talk of Angus having a thin coat, weak haunches and being small. When I had him at the vet "Trussler Rd animal clinic" he asked me if I was going to show Angus and when I said I wasn't but couldn't really anyway because he isn't registered, his response was "what a pity because he is a beautiful specimen." You are welcome to call and verify that statement anyone that may think I made it up. Particularly "Sheepie Heaven" Steph.

Angus's Mum wrote:

Sheepie Heaven wrote:

How is your vet more qualified to judge than Sheepie Heaven? Is he an OES vet specialist or a show judge of OES?

Amanda P wrote:

Angus's Mum wrote:

Sheepie Heaven wrote:

How is your vet more qualified to judge than Sheepie Heaven? Is he an OES vet specialist or a show judge of OES?

Where did I say my vet was more qualified than Sheepie Heaven? I only stated his opinion on Angus. He did do a thorough examination of Angus though and Sheepie Heaven didn't even touch his so called weak haunches. The point of my message to Sheepie Heaven was not to belittle the quality of someone else's dog when she is not an OES specialist or a show judge of OES's. I hope she gets the message better than yourself.

I'm sure your dog is great but if do more research on responsible dog breeding and breeding for health and standards, you'll better understand why people had the reactions to the breeder that they did. I'm sure you did research but there's always more things to learn. My own views on good breeding have changed drastically in the last few years and I've been a dog person all my life, but until recently, I never understood what breeding programs were all about and what they're designed to do. Breeding is much more than bringing a male and a female together. Doing that results in "brindle" OESs and fair hip ratings, as your breeder has done. It just isn't safe. I'm sure your puppy is delightful but what your breeder is doing really isn't.

I recently met a dog from this breeder about 25 minutes from where I live. Of course, seeing a sheepdog, I had to stop and say hi. The guy looked at me like I was nuts, and I explained I have 4 of them at home. He said well do you want another one? He said he had no idea how I could have more than one as he is not able to handle the one he has. I'm not sure if he was joking, however, the dogs behaviour and temperment were questionable. That of course could be entirely due to how he was raised. I asked the guy where he got his dog, and he told me. I tried to keep my expression neutral, but obviously wasn't successful, because he saw my look and immediately said "Yeah I know" in a way that made me think he has heard things before.
Anyway, from a pet standpoint, looking at the dog, he is cute, not a bad looking dog at all. From a breeder standpoint, I saw a narrow and weak rear end, hocks that turned in, a ewe neck (the neck seemed to bend toward the back instead of stretching out a bit), shoulders that seemed to start at the back of the dogs head, legs that were too long, and a coat that was way too soft for a 3 year old dog. All that in a few minutes. I'm no expert either, and I'm constantly learning, but I have a right to an opinion, and that was it.
Perhaps my opinion of that breeder colored my opinion of the dog as well.... but I still don't agree with someone breeding for all the wrong reasons and going about it the wrong way as I feel that breeder does.

Maybe this link needs to be posted on this thread also. :wink:

Comparisons :!:

http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html

Also, the same week I met that dog, I was made aware of an ad offering an 8 week old puppy for sale, with a tail. I was curious about where it came from, had a friend call, and sure enough it had been bought from this breeder. These people had the pup a few weeks (meaning it was shipped to them at about 5 weeks old) and they barely spoke english and had to leave the country and give the dog up. The "breeder" wouldn't take the dog back or assist them in any way.
This raises several fairly obvious concerns, aside from her breeding practices or her dogs.... first of all, how could she have interviewed these people very well to make sure it was going to be a stable home? I know things come up, but still... I think it was a case of send the money get the dog.
Secondly, sending a pup at 5 weeks old???!!!
Third, not taking the pup back and having no concern for what these people did with it. They did sell the puppy, but were planning on dumping it at a shelter if they couldn't in time.

I wanted to post about both of these events before, as it was during the time this thread was active, but I was so angry I couldn't.

Angus's Mum wrote:

Sheepie Heaven wrote:

Warning bells, warning bells.
I actually met someone at PetsMart and their dog Angus from this breeder. The dog was the same age as Barkley, and was noticeably smaller (and our breeder doesn't breed them large), had weak-looking haunches (well, to me an amateur) and also had a much thinner coat.
The owner said that the breeder doesn't show her dogs because she thinks it's cruel. The owner said the breeder claims that show dogs spend their whole lives in cages, except when they're being shown. :evil:

I feel it is my responsiblity to mention the fact that as you yourself say you are an ameteur and therefore should not be belittling other peoples pets. Congratulations to you for meeting many a show dog but until you are a show dog judge keep your opinions on other peoples dogs to YOURSELF!
The point of my message to Sheepie Heaven was not to belittle the quality of someone else's dog when she is not an OES specialist or a show judge of OES's. I hope she gets the message better than yourself.

Angus's mom. I am glad you feel that way about defending your pup. I am sure he is a dear, and you are are good, proud mom.

I also feel it is my responsibilty to mention that we are all entitled to our opinions and we share them here all the time. :lol:

The whole "good breeder" and "bad breeder" has been a hot topic here over the past few weeks, and it just so happens that there are pups appearing all over North America that originate from cetain Saskatchewan farm dogs. The members of OES.org are learning from each other about different aspects of the OES, whether it be confirmation, training and behavior and general health. No dog is perfect, but we do compare and make notes and discuss where things could improve. Maybe you would like to become a member and learn along with us!

I am sorry you did not get an OES from a reputable breeder, and perhaps that is hard for you to accept, but you didn't. I am sure Angus is quite the pooch, and I hope you enjoy him as he thrills you with his antics. He may not be perfect, and from looking at pictures of the dogs he was bred by, he probably does lack in a lot in the overall OES standard. But he is yours and obviously well-loved.

And by the way, I have met Sheepie Heavens dear Barkley and have been to the breeder's place and met her dogs. Sheepie Heaven probably knows more about the breed standard than you and your vet. She knows more than me!

My dog is a rescue and he is from a questionable breeder, I think. He has many faults, especially a very poor stop.

Joan and I love him like crazy, he probably wasn't being bred towards the breed standard and he's just not "show material." Great dog though! Happy and smart. What else could ya want?

Bosley's mom wrote:

Angus's Mum wrote:

Sheepie Heaven wrote:

Warning bells, warning bells.
I actually met someone at PetsMart and their dog Angus from this breeder. The dog was the same age as Barkley, and was noticeably smaller (and our breeder doesn't breed them large), had weak-looking haunches (well, to me an amateur) and also had a much thinner coat.
The owner said that the breeder doesn't show her dogs because she thinks it's cruel. The owner said the breeder claims that show dogs spend their whole lives in cages, except when they're being shown. :evil:

Okay. You all keep talking about a certain farm breeder in Sask. Why don't you just come out with the name instead of beating around the bush? You mean Sues OES dogs, right? Then show me some proof of only one bad dog that you know about then maybe I will believe your hype. Do you mean to tell me that your so called reputable breeders never have any problems with their dogs? Do they offer a money back guarantee or the choice of another puppy if a problem happens to occur with the hips etc?

By the way even if you have met Sheepie Heaven she still isn't an expert and what she says doesn't count! In my humble opinion of course

I disagree with your opinion of Sue not being a reputable breeder. By that you mean because she doesn't register her dogs she is bad. Again I say to you show me some proof. Look at Laika and look at Danu on Sue's web page for example, what a beauty!

Your forum has now got Laika's Mum wondering if her dog is inferior. From what I see of the pictures on this forum she is spectacular and even Sheepie Heaven said she had her photo on the fridge before she got Barkley and from what you say about Sheepie Heaven she knows a lot about OES's, in your humble opinion of course.

Me, I don't profess to know everything about OES's but I do know enough not to belittle another persons pet. It's just plain bad manners. That's like saying You are an ugly woman and I don't know a thing about you.

We're not belittling anyone's dog. As several members have said, we love our dogs, no matter what. No one is saying that to be a good loveable pet that it has to be perfect. It IS perfect, to the person who loves it.

However, with so many dogs in shelters or that end up in rescue already with health problems, temperment problems, or just a lack of a home, why breed more crossbreed dogs who do not come from the best background (and to prove that you only have to look at her own website to see her dogs hips have NOT been certified, and the few that have been xrayed but still not certified did NOT have good results)?

Willowsprite wrote:

Willowsprite you can say what you wish but I feel my dog was belittled on this forum. He is not a crossbreed dog he is a purebred OES. Again I say you show me at least one dog of Sue's that you know of that has problems and maybe I will believe the hype. It seems to me it is all your opinions but please show me some actual proof that this breeder is selling dogs with health problems.

Are you really all so brainwashed that you think a little piece of paper that registers a dog makes it better than a non registered dog. Angus isn't the first dog we have owned and they have all been purebred
" Registered" dogs. I must say apart from our Scotch Collie who was the perfect dog from day one, Angus is just like our previous OES "Sadie" and she was registered, he is playful,happy and mischevious.

However I think you should give Sues dogs a break and keep your opinions of her dogs to yourselves. Just how many of her dogs do you know about that are in the shelters you mention by the way

Just so you know.... by Canadian law, under the Animal Pedigree Act, a dog sold as purebred must be registered. It is fraudulent to sell a purebred without papers. Dogs not registered are considered crossbreds.

Willowsprite wrote:

Thanks for the info but it doesn't make sense. You have a non registered pup from registered parents, in my simple mind the pup is still and OES purebred with or without a little certificate.

Same in Australia too, all living progeny must be registered. WHY?

To be able to access information on the breed for many generations & future generations down the track. To be able to evaluate pedigrees and not to breed from ancestors/carriers that have produced dogs with genetic health issues Why? To help prevent disorders like Cerabella Ataxia, Progressive Retinal Atrophy etc etc and all the other disorders that can and do come up, it lessens the chances of producing problems in the generations down the track to have an offical registered record.

So it is irresponsible not to register all living progeny, wether they are family dogs or show dogs.

Yes sometimes breeders do get it wrong, not every one is perfect, but it lessens the chances of having terrible problems crop up, if people breeding do the right thing and register all progeny as well as the Health testing too.

A pet person can ring up and say, my dog has this or that and that information is not passed on into records as the dog is not registered and that problem in those lines is not traceable to others or for a breed record . OK so what, what has that got to do with it? Well who's not to say a sister or brother from that particular litter is being used to produce puppies or even the mom or dad again or two or three generations down the track, no official recorded history of past & future generations to help keep those problems out of the breed. .

It keeps valuable information, History & important records for future generations, an archive & a future reference on how the breed is progessing and what problems are cropping up or reducing

It benefits the breed as a whole and helps to ensure a brighter future for the breed, if breeders do pay the money and register all living progeny. :wink:

Another thing it stops is by registering the litter it gives the date the litter was whelped on an official register, so here in Australia there is a strict code that comes with that, that a bitch cannot be mated again till a minimum of 18 months from her prior litter.
It helps stop a bitch becoming baby making machine, being mated everytime they come into heat.. If these rules are broken then severe penalties from the Kennel Council.

Well your dog is from registered parents, then why is the progeny not registered also?

Dear Angus' Mom,

Nobody on this forum has attacked you, they gave their opinion about your dog, and it wasn't with the knowledge that you would ever read it. If they thought you were a member, or you were likely to read about it, I'm sure they would have been more tactful.

You are chatting with a wide cross section of sheepdog enthusiasts here, from people deeply involved with rescue, to new breeders to very well esablished breeder/showpeople, trainers, and me, a guy with a dog and a site. Nobody here is being "emotional" or even "passionate" about this, though you can't tell that without knowing the people involved. We're just chatting.

You have come to the forum with a chip on your shoulder, perhaps understandably so, but with a chip nonetheless.

You are probably unaware of our "mantra" here at oes.org.

1) Assume the poster meant no insult. Read each post assuming the best intentions of the writer.
2) Write each post as if you were sitting at your kitchen table, sharing a cup of tea with a neighbor you don't know very well.

If you were offended by someone's comments about a dog they met in a parking lot, I apologize. However we all must remain civil.

Thanks.

PS Your breeder came to this site and insulted people left and right, insulted the site and questioned our abilities to read and write and our levels of education. Nobody started jumping up and down asking her to prove her opinion, although I certainly disagreed with it. Please go back and read the couple of posts I have made in this thread. I have suggested that everyone's dog is wonderful, no matter what their background.

However, your breeder does claim to check hips, implying that this important step is being done properly, and that no dogs below a certain score are used for breeding. Her own info on her own site contradicts this assertion, however.

I re-posted the info the hip "certifications" found on her site, that shows that all of her litters for an entire year were sired by a dog with hips that rated the lowest possible acceptable score, even though she vociferously claimed to never breed dogs with that rating.

Let's look at her assertions:

sues.oesdogs@yahoo.com wrote:

We once bred Thora who produced a pup with hip problems, she was bred at two years but before her two year exam,

Why?

sues.oesdogs@yahoo.com wrote:

The only other dog to have a fair rating was Modi, Here is his story -
[...]
Born on April 4th 2001
Bred by Barbara Hughes Ladrigue and Frances Fine

Barbara Hughes resides in Bay City MI

France Fine resides in Southgate MI

Modi’s Mother was Pickwick Fine Sabrina Fair, her parents were Pickwick Fine Pooh Bear and Pickwick Fabulous Fine Fox

Modi’s Father was Pickwick Fine Mighty Montgomery, his parents were Pickwick Fine Pooh Bear and Pickwick Tojo Patriot Patty

You can see from this pedigree both parents had the same father, Pickwick Fine Pooh Bear

Modi came to us from a strong and impressive line of Champions, and we believed him to offer a strong genetic health background to our breeding program. We were so very wrong!

In spring of 2002 it became apparent that Modi would have difficulty breeding and surgery had be performed, namely "phemosis and paraphemosis’ or more commonly described as circumcision.

What? They knew he was going to have difficulty in breediing -- he was only 1 year old! I don't think that someone can claim to be a responsible breeder while breeding (or attempting to breed) dogs too young to have their hips certified! Do you?

sues.oesdogs@yahoo.com wrote:

Each of our dogs has a rating of “good” or “excellent” for their hips and I do not breed any dogs with only a “fair” rating. All health reports are posted on line for you to download and verify.

Really?

Ron wrote:

Regarding your assertion that no dogs with a fair rating is bred, that might be technically true that you are not currently breeding dogs with a fair rating, although I'd really be interested in seeing your hip certifications for your current Sires and Dams. Are you breeding dogs younger than 2 years old, and/or have not yet had hip certifications?

I also direct your attention to your own website where you show a dog Monty that produced ALL of your litters for the entire year of 2001 ("Monty fathered all pups born here in 2001."), whose hip evaluation is shown as "fair". It seems that you bred him too early; you didn't have his hips checked until after he sired all of your pups for the year, and then his evaluation showed only "Fair" hips.

Here's a close up:

So here's the situation: You have sheepdog lovers from all over the world in all different walks of sheepdog life, looking at your breeder's website and through it to your breeder's breeding program, and finding what they think are issues with it. You have a dog from this breeder to whom you are very attached. You love your dog! I don't blame you. But I'd think you would want to take a look at the issues being raised.

Good luck with your Angus! I hope that we can still be friends; sign up (it's free and easy) and come and chat with us sometime.

Ron.

Let me reiterate with a direct quote:

Quote:

Eir is the third brindle pup we've had born to Sif. Researching the history of OES, someone, when founding the OES breed registry, stated "all shades of brown are to be discouraged". With this in mind I believe the brindle coloring was in fact more common in years gone by.

Well, as long as she believes it. That dog should've stopped breeding with the birth of the FIRST brindle pup.

Quote:

Show titles are just that – consider how you measure up to Ken or Barbie - and then decide if you really are looking for a show dog or a family pet.

Anyone who thinks that about showing knows very little about standards and what breeding for standards is all about. Ken and Barbie are toys designed way off the human norm, there is no reason to think that a well bred OES couldn't be judged and do well. The standards are not unrealistic-- that is, IF YOU'RE BREEDING FOR THEM! If all you care about is a pet, please save one of many animals in rescue that need homes and don't pay money to someone like this. This breeder clearly knows right from wrong, which is what makes her so dangerous. Rather than stick with the standards and responsible breeding, she's inserted her own opinions and unfounded ideas about what she thinks the OES should be. If that's the case, it is not one person's place to try to make changes in a breed that has standards in place for a reason.

This is not to say that some of the dogs that have come from her aren't beautiful, I'm sure they are. What scares me is that she's playing with fire and without a sound breeding program, you never know what you're going to get.

Ron wrote:

Dear Ron,

I'm sorry if you think I have a chip on my shoulder but I must disagree with your opinion. Because I take offense to one of your members belittling my dog ( not me ) you think I have a chip on my shoulder? However you say that if your member had thought I would read the comment she posted then she would have been more tactful. I could have told her how to be more tactful and it is quite simple. Next time she wants to belittle my dog or any other persons dog just leave out the obvious. The names and places. Ironically it was this poster of yours who told me about your website otherwise I probably wouldn't have read what she said. Funny how things work eh?

I read your Mantra and I don't think her comments on Angus were with the best intentions.

If I had been sitting in her kitchen sharing a cup of tea with her I doubt if she would have said those things about Angus to my face. In fact we were talking in Petsmart and she didn't happen to mention them then?

Perhaps it's your poster that needs to re-read your mantra.

So "Guy with a dog and a site" I am not emotional or passionate about this either, just wantd to be heard and bring it to one of your members attention that her comments were not appreciated.

I read all your postings everyday and I do enjoy reading what's going on and there are some interesting information. So thanks.

I understand what you're saying, but I think you've got it a little skewed. She wasn't talking to you, she was talking about you and Angus, and you "weren't here".

Let me give an example that I feel would be a little closer to what happened here: You're sitting at your kitchen table having a conversation with a neighbor, say, about another neighbor and talking about how bad their lawn looks.

Suddenly you look up and see the bad-lawn neighbor standing at the door (and clearly heard it by the expression on her face).

Now, wouldn't you feel embarrassed to be one of the participants in the conversation?

How would you have handled it if you were the neighbor at the door?

I would've turned around and said "Oh, hi. We were just talking about how much your lawn sucks."

But on the forum, I have to be more careful. :twisted:

I would have had her join into the converstion and pointed out where next time she could improve...

and if she continued to go on and on about how hurt she was I would have her sit down for a cup of tea and tell her to get over it. :lol:

lisaoes wrote:

It benefits the breed as a whole and helps to ensure a brighter future for the breed, if breeders do pay the money and register all living progeny. :wink:

I find this VERY interesting. I do not think the registration here(Canada) is as strict as it is in Australia. I do not think a breeder has to wait 18 months between breedings with the same bitch.

In Australia is would they be able to register a litter that the parents were brother an sister?

And about health issues...are they reported to the registry in Australia?

I'm just curious. And I am learning a LOT from this thread.

ButtersStotch wrote:

I would've turned around and said "Oh, hi. We were just talking about how much your lawn sucks."

But on the forum, I have to be more careful. :twisted:

Ditto....

That's interesting about waiting 18 months between matings. Studies have proven this is actually far more detrimental to the bitch.
Dr Hutchinson offers an excellent repro seminar that goes over this in great detail.

Since a bitch goes through the exact same hormonal changes after each heat cycle whether she has been bred or not, he explains how the uterus is bombarded by progesterone every single heat cycle. This ages the uterus and makes it less hospitable for embryos. A dog that cycles more frequently will have an "older" uterus than an older dog who cycles less frequently. After each heat cycle the uterus develops endometriosis, then cysts etc.
Anyway, there is a lot more to it than that... but basically it is better to have your litters closer together while the bitch is younger (under 5) and then retire her sooner from breeding.

I would worry less about how many litters I may have and worry more about the quality and health of one litter....

Oy vey

Yes to all those questions Wizard Merlin, but one point I think you read it wrong, what I mean is a dog that is not registered and showed a problem and the breeder used a litter sister to have pups , or a dog from that litter to stud to another bitch down the track. There is no records to stop them using that line with the problems and to continue on doing what there doing, they have no one to answer too like a higher authority, so they can do what they like and keep breeding whoever to whatever as they are not registered and the breeder is not traceable.

Full Brother to Full Sister is just way too close and very uncommon but it has been done. You run a huge risk of problems, so breeders that do that have to be very knowledgeable and know exactly what they are doing. Talking all breeds here, not just OES.

Yes we have a health register where things are reported & recorded on individual breeds.

18 months apart is just the way the Kennel council rules are unless extenuating circumstances, say a bitch only whelped one or two pups, so permission has to be attained to go ahead earlier.

Willowsprite wrote:

ButtersStotch wrote:

I would've turned around and said "Oh, hi. We were just talking about how much your lawn sucks."

But on the forum, I have to be more careful. :twisted:

Ditto....

You are all so Charming :twisted:

Jumping into the foray here, I think it is important to keep in mind the context of the discussion of a particular dog. It had nothing to do with how wonderful a pet that dog is or how good an owner he has or how good a human being Angus's mum is.

The discussion was about a particular breeder and whether or not the breeder uses appropriate breeding stock and the results of what some consider to be poor breeding practices. (and having read this thread, I would agree, although I have not met this breeder or any of her dogs, as far as I know). As it happens, a member of this forum, who happens to be extremely knowledgeable about breed standard, encountered your pup, who came from the same breeder. She used him as an example of what a less than stellar breeding program can produce, standard wise. This was not an indictment of you, or of your pup, but rather a part of a discussion about breed standard and breeding practices. This is as completely different a discussion about how wonderful a pet your puppy is, as I am sure he is, just as I am sure you are a wonderful pet owner.

In another context, think of it this way: Imagine== You have a wonderful 6 yr old daughter who is bright, beautiful and who loves the ballet. She does well in school and in her local ballet classes. By chance, a ballet teacher from a very prestigious school happens to see your daughter in class. She notices her very good points, but also notices that her legs are short in proportion to her body, that her ankles are a little thick and that her neck is also a little short. This would all dramatically affect your daughter's chances at a professional career in the ballet. The visiting teacher may note what a beautiful, well raised child she is, how hard she works, her grace, but knows that she simply doesn't 'fit' the body type demanded of professional ballerinas. This doesn't mean your fictional daughter isn't a beautiful, smart, wonderful child who should continue taking ballet classes as long as she enjoys them. It does mean that you and she should think hard about the realities of this particular aspect of her future.

Thank you for your explanations but I really think this is getting blown way out of proportion. I really do understand your philosophy on this breeder. She doesn't register her dogs, doesn't get the hips checked, breeds her dogs too often, doesn't breed her dogs often enough, encourages unwanted colouring, so on and so on.

I am not about to dispute any of that stuff (none of my business) my only point was that Sheepie Heaven in her own words said she is an amateur (pet owner) and therefore she has no right to discuss the quality of my dog or any other dog for that matter as if she was an expert.

If it makes everybody happy I will say Angus is an ugly scrawny crossbreed. :oops:

I can say that because he is my dog and I am usually a person that likes to please people so keep you all happy I will give up now and trust that none of you will ever see my point. So really there is no point going on and on and on. :!:

I saw your point, but I noticed that you didn't respond to my hypothetical embarrassing moment, except to comment about two other member's approaches... and I couldn't tell whether you were being playful

or sarcastic :roll:

in that post -- or both.

I think your arrival here could have been handled better by everyone involved, including me.

Ciao!

Ron wrote:

or sarcastic :roll:

in that post -- or both.

I think your arrival here could have been handled better by everyone involved, including me.

Ciao!

Sorry I forgot to respond to your hypothetical embarrassing moment Ron.

If I was caught in an embarrassing situation like that I would be mortified and it is hard for me to think what I would say. I feel it is one of those situations that you would have to be in before you know how you would respond. I am pretty sure though that I wouldn't be so glib as to say we were just talking about how your lawn sucks. If I have to think of my response it would probably be that I would ignore the fact that the neighbour overheard the conversation about the bad lawn and change the subject. Lucky for me I have Great neighbours

If the neighbour pulled us up on the fact were were bad mouthing his lawn, then I may get into a discussion on how hard it is to keep lawns looking good and being good neighbours by not spraying chemicals to keep the weeds down etc. (because they are harmful to humans and pets)

Hopefully this is the last you will hear from me eh? :roll:

You DID catch the sarcasm in the post where Butterstoch said she'd say his lawn sucks, right?

That's the thing about typing rather than being in person. Sometimes sarcasm is hard to detect or just the tone of the note is hard to interpret, which can bring about a lot of unnecessary hurt feelings.

I'm sure know one meant to hurt your feelings and no one was attacking you or your dog's character; it sounds like you might be a sensitive person, which I can be too!

I hope you stick around the forum; that way you'll get to learn stuff and we'll get to learn stuff from you (and maybe see pictures of Angus)...

To be honest, I'd just as soon be told that the neighbors were talking about how much my lawn sucks as to have to pretend to believe a lie and wonder what was really said.

And to be very honest, I am not close to an expert, but am smart and knowledgeable enough about OES conformation to recognize how far my dogs deviate from the standard. I'm not qualified to serve as a judge but I know that Sherman and Archie are both too leggy and that Sophie has a number of deviations from the OES standard, including the sort of coat that she has, and yes, weak looking haunches, although I'd back her in a fight with a bear, based on attitude alone. I don't love them any less, but I'd be a fool to not recognize my dogs' obvious faults or to be offended if others mentioned them to one another or to me.

Angus's Mum wrote:

Hopefully this is the last you will hear from me eh? :roll:

I don't see why yuo'd have to leave... I rather like your intelligence.

Stick around!
Many a rocky start turns into a great romance! Just think of all those movies from the 40s!

Think of this like a "Mom meets forum, forum loses mom, mom marries forum" story!

We don't usually bite, honest!

Well, most of us.

SLINK SLINK Slink slink slink

I had the oppertunity to purchase an OES female from Sue Peterson in 2007. I kept in close contact with Sue and told her of my special needs being aflicted with MD. This would be my 6th OES and I needed a very special dog. (I had been a large dog trainer in the past) I recieved a very special dog that is going to have a birthday in Feb of this year. Ally will be 7 and she's perfect. She nows when I'm having a bad day and is always by my side. There isn't a day goes by I regret getting an animal that was out of the US. I used to bread small dogs and non of them have the personality of Ally. She goes everywhere I go and is welcome in everyones home. She was easily trained and easy to maintain. Everyone that comes in contact with her falls in love with her. If I had to do it again I would and will defenatly perchase from the Petersons again.
Deliriously Happy
Cathy

I wish you all the luck in the world with your dog.

I've been away from the forum for over a week so didn't see this discussion until just now.

Angus's mom:

I'm sorry you feel I belittled your pet. That was never my intention and I didn't hide the details of our meeting because I never thought I was being insulting to either you or Angus.

This discussion was about a breeder, and whether or not that breeder could be considered to be a reputable breeder. I was pointing out some reasons (her not showing and some of Angus's physical characteristics) that suggest the breeder is not breeding to preserve the breed standard.

Whether or not Angus meets the breed standard does not reflect at all on his value as a member of your family, and certainly does not reflect on your love for him. Many forum members will happily agree that their dog doesn't meet the breed standard (as Ron did), but of course that doesn't mean they are not good dogs.

Again, I'm sorry I offended you. I'm glad you found the forum and hope you join as a member and stick around!

Sheepie Heaven wrote:

Thanks Sheepie Heaven. That's all I wanted.

PS: A wise person once told me if you can't say anything nice or good about someone or something then don't say anything at all.

I have to agree with you all here. We have had some really bad experiences also in the past. Not knowing about the stupid breeding tricks people play, my husband has always had a German Shepherd, growing up etc. So when we bought our house and 2+ acres we decided to get a shepherd. We first bought one from a breeder, we checked him out as far as not being a puppy mill etc. Found that the both parents were available to look at. The mother had a great disposition, puppies were health guarenteed. We chose a puppy we thought was not fearful or any of the bad traits we read up on to look for in a pup. Brought him home we socialized him etc. He became so mean and so nasty that we couldnt trust him around strangers. He was great with the family but no one else. We always had to keep him kenneled when company came, we couldnt let him run outside, we had to kennel him outside. I do not like that in a dog at all I want to be able to trust my dog. We then bought a sweetheart. Different breeder house raised, they even started collar and leash training on the pups. The children in the family even had them named. We have of course had to pick the one they named "favorite" She is a sweetie pie. The only thing company is afraid of with her is the bath they get from her footlong tongue :lol:

We recently lost another shepherd we had that was also poorly bred but we adopted her and she suffered a lot of health problems because of the poor breeding. She was what they call and "american" german shepherd. They are bred to be more fine boned and delicate. YEA sucks doesnt it. She had a lot of skin problems was going blind in one eye and even the vet had no clue what was going on. She had tummy problems, I called her my aneroxic doggie because she wouldnt eat, but would guard her bowl from cheyenne. We loved her very much, she grew up in the house and was very loyal. She died very young at the age of 8 and broke our hearts. It was just so sad what the breeder had done to her.

After her death which was the friday before christmas, we decided no more dogs BUT well then we came across this cutie comedian 3mo old OES. I had an OES when I was a teen and just loved the personality and everything about him. THis little guy has so much personality. I just cant believe it. He has a vet appointment today for his first check up!!! He has a health certificate that he's guarenteed but we have to have a vet check him to validate the certificate. He came from a loving home with kids that named the pups. He is soooooooooo cute ok when i figure out how to upload my husbands camera I have some great pic's we him and cheyenne, who also has a vet appointment today. And right now I need some apple stuff because he is trying to eat my carpet!!!

Cheyenne thinks he is her pup and she tries herd him when she hears us tell him to do something. Its a zoo here but i'm loving it!!!!

I have heard of her ,as a matter of fact my family owns one of her dogs,we hope to purchase another this summer.We would not purchase an oes pup from anyone else!I have to question how many folks out there have purchased a pup from this particular breeder and have any first hand accounts ie: legitimate complaints? We certainly do not !!!

I purchased Bella from Sue in August. I was in complete contact with her the entire time. Bella is now 8 months old and and an awesome pup. I have had OES for 20 years, mostly rescues, only one other pup from a backyard breeder. Bella is the best of the best! My vet said she was "fabulous". She has the best tempermant of any dog I have ever had and is heathy, happy and beautiful. No matter where I take her, she is the favorite. I would not hesitate to go to Sue again.

Mary

That's good to hear, Mary...

...and Welcome to the forum! Please share more about Bella with us!

Though I'm glad to hear that people have good experiences with some of her dogs, I can't help but have the feeling that the point is being missed. Good breeding is a whole package-- a dog that meets the standards made by the breed clubs, organizations made up of individuals that have devoted their lives to the breed. Those standards include temperament and emphasize health but the physical appearance of the dog is important too. Many physical traits are bred into the dog to prevent future health problems so although a certain amount of it is cosmetic, a lot of it is not.

I mean no offense to any specific poster, but if you don't know what the ideal is, you can't judge the dog that you have objectively. Don't get me wrong, I love all dogs and I'd take a dog in need any day. 2 of mine are rescues! It just seems like if you're paying good money for an Old English Sheepdog you'd want an Old English Sheepdog like you've seen on tv or in the dog shows-- the best dog you can get and as close to what the Old English Sheepdog standard calls for.

If I were taking in a rescue, I'd expect to get a dog that might be leggy, cow hocked or lanky because it isn't unheard of for dogs from poor breeding to wind up in rescue. I just don't understand how if you're actively searching for a dog, of a breed that you've chosen as the right fit for your family, that will spend the next 10 to 12 years as a huge part of your life, why would you pick anything less than as close to perfect as you can? Why settle for anything less? I think every dog deserves a good home but by patronizing breeders like this you're not doing a disservice to the breed, but to yourself.

I am not going to try and change any views, and in turn no one will change mine.. However, I am going to state my views and experiences ...I am not here to debate show vs. pet.Registered vs non registered.

My understanding is that this particular breeder has been @ this for a good long time .Your going to get reputable and non reputable breeders on both sides of the fence.

The remarks from satisfied owners are available for view on her family website, and are posted for anyone in the world with access to the internet to see...Several of which are not first time oes owners..She does care, long after the financial transaction is completed .This I know from first hand experience.I spent a tremendous amount of time researching this particular breeder .I did not look @ just a website ... And yes I will still only purchase from this particular breeder in the future.....b/c I trust her and her standards....There are no guarantees in life!Please don't assume that b/c I purchased an oes from this particular breeder that I am patronizing anyone's breeding standard..........or as you state doing a disservice to myself...

ButtersStotch wrote:

Butterstoch meant when she said "patronzing breeders like this" is "going to or using breeders like this"...not being patronizing toward them.

And of course a breeder is going to have good satisfied customer stories or quotes on their website and nothing bad...the quotes don't also have to be true...they could be completely fabricated (I'm NOT saying that these are...I've never even seen the website).

I suppose I will have to wait and find out exactly what she meant . I believe I have already stated that the deciding factor for me was not and would never be based on a website.Kinda a double- edged sword there isn't it???

barney1 wrote:

. ::

barney1 wrote:

True and true.

I really get the feeling that a lot of people that have been posting feel like anyone that posts anything about this breeder is "out to get her" or "doesn't understand Sue." That is not the case. Practices like that are not acceptable by the breed clubs, responsible breeders or anyone who feels strongly about responsible breeding. I think the "brindle" theory is what really gets me the most about this particular breeder.

I'm not looking to change anyone's view in a single post but I think saying "Well, I got a good dog and I have no complaints" is really narrowing your ability to make a good, educated decision in selecting a dog. A good dog does not automatically equal a good breeder. As someone else pointed out, even the lousiest breeding will result in something great every once in awhile. With more education (on this subject), you'd (a general you, again, not a specific poster) understand why people have come to the conclusions that they have about this breeder.

I am amazed that so many people have so little to do in their lives that to bash someone they dont know! I would like to see all those so called breeders of OES who claim it is important to measure up to breed specifics, send in photos of themselves and lets see how they measure up to the models that grace our fashion shows - I lay bets they don't! Does this make them bad people - heavens NO! What makes them bad people is their lousy temperament and inbreeding! Remember my invitation goes out to all of you snotty breeders, you are welcome anytime to visit our dogs and farm, and I challenge you to:
1. Match my guarantee!
2. Spend your time training your dogs for therapeutic work giving love to those who need it most
3. Do better than Modi"s breeders when it comes to breeding healthy pups see http://www.oldenglishsheepdogs.com/modistory.htm
4. Pressure AKC and OES club of America to demand full genetic health tests of all litters before registering them
5. Demand that AKC stop registering litters of OES parents who are carrying the Cerebella gene
6. Demand AKC stop registering litters of parents who are rated less than Good or Excellent on their Hip and Elbow x-rays.
If you follow these steps then I can believe you are truly interested in preserving the best of this wonderful breed!

I do not think you will get very far in establishing yourself as an exemplary breeder by pointing out your problems with another breeder. Nor will you help by calling posters on this forum illiterate or uneducated or inbred.

By your own posts, you have violated a number of best practices, such as breeding a bitch prior to her 2 year hip evaluation. I am not a breeder, nor do I show dogs, but I cannot imagine doing such a thing. You retired her after her hip certification came back. Did you inform the purchasers of her puppies and offer to take back any puppies that displayed problems?

. Obviously, you have had owners who are and have been wonderfully pleased with the puppies they purchased from you. If you did not, likely you would not still be in business. Most of the kudos seem to come from the owners of young dogs, too young for most to display problems with hip displaysia.

I don't know your dogs or you or anything about you other than what you've posted here on this forum. Based on your posts--not any other posts by fans or detractors--I would not wish to purchase one of your puppies.

Quote:

Sue..

I too disagree with many of the posters regarding who is a "good breeder" for the reason stated as I don't see anything wrong with breeding if they are missing the black line under their eyes (halo?) that some dogs require to show, teeth crooked, and several other minor things that do NOT effect health.

but...

agree with tgir whole-heartedly in regards to breeding before her 2 yr hip evaluation.

I am glad to see you are on this forum defending your reputation Sue. As you will remember we purchased Angus(Hel's pup) from you in August and he is a beautiful dog thanks to you.

Reading all this negative stuff about your breeding practices I am now starting to think if Angus was registered I would show him and prove how great he is.

Now all you Reputable breeders who keep this going about Sue's dogs I have a great question for you. If you all care so much about the well being and health of your dogs, why do you still carry out the barbaric practice of Chopping :oops:

off the tails of your pups. The tail is there for a reason and the practice of chopping it off does nothing for the dogs health except maybe harm it. My daughter is a registered massage therapist and she is convinced Angus is so much better off having a tail because it give him balance and it's better for his hips. Which of you Reputable breeders that have been slamming Sue's practices can prove to me that it is better for the dog to chop off it's tail :oops:

In my opinion chopping off the tail is for window dressing. May be so the hair on the butt can be flufffed up and make the dog look more like it is up to the so called breed standard.

Actually, the historical reason that tails were docked was to denote that the dog was a working dog, and as such, exempt from tax (in England).

I do not know whether or not docking tails harms a dog's balance or hips (your daughter's expertise as a massage therapist notwithstanding). Certainly the way that show dogs are groomed, with the very fluffed up coats is done to excentuate the appearance of the dog's lines, in accordance with breed standard, and does nothing to promote a dog's health. Nor does anyone claim otherwise.

I do know that breeding dogs too young or too often, and certainly without hip and eye certifications is poor breeding practice, no matter what your intentions are regarding showing or registering the puppies.

My personal opinion is that it is always possible to pick apart other people's ideas of what makes a good dog or good breeding practice. This is a subject of debate on this forum quite often. It isn't a personal slam against any breeder, but often contains opinions founded after many years of experience dealing with the abandoned results of bad breeding practices, and the thousands of dollars spent on vet care that could have been avoided by requiring breeders to certify their dogs as free from any genetic faults such as hip displaysia.

My personal opinion has been that none of the posters here has bashed Sue Peterson, although some are quite adamant about their opinions of what is and what is not a good breeding practice. On the other hand, Sue has come here to insult posters and this forum, more than once. In my opinion, this speaks volumes about her as an individual and also as a breeder.

Angus's Mom:

Whether or not Angus were registered, you wouldn't be able to show him in North America because the breed standard is for the tail to be docked. You can't show an OES with a tail.

Docking is painless and poses very little risk if done properly. Many OES's tails are not "chopped" off as you say. Have you heard of banding? Do a little research. Painless, and no risky anaesthetic needed. Removal of dew claws is thought to be painful for the pups, but it has been deemed necessary.

Can anyone say their dog is worse off for not having their tail?

Very good points from ButtersStotch and tgir. Nothing more to add.

I think anyone reading this post has enough to make an informed decision.

Can we put this discussion to rest?!? :roll:

Actually I did know the historical reason for chopping off the dogs tails .

However, we all know that isn't a good enough reason now and when will the Reputable Breeders stop this practice of cruelty to animals? May be when some individual presses charges on a breeder for continuing the barbaric practice for sake of cosmetics. I really wonder if that could happen some day? I have heard of people getting charged for leaving their dogs in extreme conditions etc, why not tail chopping too?

Now you are probably thinking I am really nuts eh?

Please don't get into bad breeding again i.e:too young,too often, hip stuff I would just like some proof that tail chopping is good for the dogs and if not, some great reason why it continues to be done by the Reputable Breeders who say they only care about the good of the animals. Ha!

At least that is one thing Sue does right, she doesn't chop off a tail for fun and no one can dispute that fact

Another thought I just had is that breeders should have proof before they speak about other breeders or else they could find themselves slapped with a slander suit. Could that be possible? I would think putting things in print could be dangerous. I hope I haven't opened a can of worms.

Actually, on this point I sortof do agree. Emphasize on the sortof.

I haven't yet heard a good reason why it is necessary. Personally, I'm glad I don't have to groom a tail, or worry about things getting knocked off coffee tables, but those aren't good reasons to dock. So if it's not necessary, why bother?

At the same time, I haven't yet heard a strong enough argument that it causes harm. So why stop?

Tail docking is essentially illegal in some countries (Norway?.... others?), with some specific exceptions.

I liken tail docking to circumcision. Basically unnecessary but basically harmless.

Are you also strongly against circumcision?

I think if I were a breeder that came on the forum and found comments that I thought were incorrect about my practices, rather than responding negatively and calling names, I'd counter each claim with a counterclaim that proved the poster wrong. That way, when other people may stumble on this site, looking for advice on a choosing a breeder, they would see that although this breeder's methods were called into question, she was able to answer with facts that set people's mind at ease. Instead they see name calling, arguing and challenges. As a potential buyer, I would consider that a major turnoff.

I think, once again, the point is being missed... and I think it will continue to be missed.

Sheepie Heaven wrote:

Aw come on Sheepie Heaven dogs missing tails poop too and they don't have the great pump action that dogs with tails do, to get rid of the poop. Some day you may have to groom Barkley's bum and some day I may have to groom Angus's bum but isn't that what Mum's do?

I do know I could not show Angus without a tail here but I could show him in Europe if he were registered. I am not totally as ignorant as you seem to think I am when it comes to OES's. We owned one minus a tail for eleven years because we didn't have the option of keeping her tail. We had the option with Angus and jumped at it. Why don't you do a little research yourself and watch some videos of tails being chopped off and see if you feel the same way? I do know about banding and what I have to say on that matter is this. Why don't you band your little finger until it falls off and then tell me if it hurts or not. What dog do you know that was able to say "That didn't hurt a bit when my tail was chopped off."?

As far as dew claws I agree it's a good idea for them to be removed because they can cause problems for the dogs.

As far as likening tail docking to circumcision I don't think that's comparing apples to apples. My opinion on circumcision is not up for discussion on this forum or any other forum.

Still would like to hear some proof that tail chopping is good for the dogs. I will try to get some proof that it is bad for the dogs too.

Angus is going on to bigger and better things than the show ring and I think he will have more fun doing it too. He is going to be a therapy dog and bring smiles and hugs to people in need. I think he will much prefer doing that to being stuck in a cage at shows waiting to be paraded around the ring. Speaking of cages did you read the posts of people who said they went to Reputable show dog breeders looking to buy a pups and they were appalled at the mess the dogs were kept in and in cages. I seem to remember you said that just doesn't happen and why would my breeder say such a thing. Well I guess that proves you wrong in that department.

Dogs living their lives in filthy (or clean) cages doesn't happen at any of the breeders I would patronize. :wink:

I still haven't seen any explanation from this breader about her "no breeding with bad hips" claim; I've pointed to the facts and her own statements, and she refuses to discuss them. She has been nothing but rude here to people, and while I have given her some slack due to the nature of the thread, enough is enough. Further, she promised not to return here, so we can all see what her word is worth.

(I'm sorry, was that really a dig from me? It is infectious.)

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