Dog Fight
The Sheltie is extremely dominant has always been, she is 11 year old. She likes to lay on the window seat so no one bothers her. Yesterday when any of the dogs came near her she would do a grunt growl thing, Phoebe would just stand there and stare at her until I told her to stop and lay down. Last night I let them out to run in the yard. Every one was out including my son (18) and grandson (3) running around. The the sheltie knocked down the grandson, Phoebe came running over the sheltie started growling and going after Phoebe. Phoebe grabbed the sheltie by the neck and just pounced. Scared the death out of me and my son. I went running each one of us grabbed a dog to pull them apart. I picked up the sheltie and ran her into the house she was bleeding pretty bad. Got the wounds cleaned off and ran to my vet. They had to shave down the bites and the dog now has 8 stitches. After I picked up the dog from the vet she had to stay because they knocked her out to clean her up and do the needed repair I placed her in my crate to keep her calm for the night. This morning instead of letting them go out together I walked the Sheltie when they came bad in the house she started the grumpie growl at Phoebe again so back in the crate she went. Phoebe just stands there and looks at her when she does this but she is not backing down it is more of a "try it" look. This is not a normal thing for these two. The Sheltie even though she is 11 years old is extremely active. My brother travels a lot for work so they have been together like this for at least one week a month for the past two years. She does not growl at my Collie only Phoebe. I am trying to figure out how to stop this behavior since she is here with me until December 21. Phoebe out weighs her by 55 pounds and the fight was brutal. The Sheltie is extremely lovable but since she is older does not like the rough and tumble of my grandson when he lays on her. She does not growl at him she just moves to the window seat. I need some help with this |
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| I have no help but a big sigh...
ohhh boyyy.... |
| Wow, it seems to me a LOT of people are going through this lately...
I wonder why? I don't have any suggestions other than to keep them separated for their and your safety and sanity. Crates and baby gates... separate rooms, rotating their free time etc. |
| I think it is a dominance issue... and it certainly sounds like Phoebe was NOT interested in allowing the sheltie to harm/challenge your grandson. I'd say just keep them seperated if you have to watch her, as they both feel the need to be the boss! I'm not sureof any way to force them to be nice to each other, if they can't work it out non-violently for themselves. Maybe somebody else can think of something... |
| We're working on a fight free household right now so I know what you're going through. It sounds like, from what you posted, that Phoebe retaliated after the Sheltie attacked, who was already very excited from knocking down your grandson. If they hadn't had problems in the past, could this be an isolated incident or do you feel another fight brewing when they're together now? I've found that I can feel a different tension in the air when I know they're getting upset with each other.
The best suggestion that I can give you to start with is to diffuse the situation before it starts. Watch their signals and if it looks like something is changing, throw in a distraction. Now, whenever Bear even walks near Clyde (or vice versa) in a less than playful way, we start providing distractions. I'll get all excited and call Bear over, maybe play with him a second to pull his mind away from the no good it was thinking of before. For us, we're dealing with over 200 pounds of dog between them so when they go at it, it's rough and nearly impossible to separate without getting hurt ourselves. For us, it really requires us to be on our toes and watch how they're interacting. I think these days, I even jump the gun and start distracting even when nothing is wrong. It seems to be helping because we've been without any incident for over a week, down from a few a week previous to that. |
| Sorry to hear about what happened. I'm sure Phoebe's not too hapy about the Sheltie being around, even though they've gotten along in the past. I agree with Butter, it definitely helps diffusing the situation before any aggressiveness happens. Usually if one is fixated on the other is a sure giveaway, ears go down, tail stops wagging.
It happens a lot at our house when our little dog, Haggis is under my office chair or the furniture, I try to get up and just get in the middle of it before it happens. I usually start saying "no" to Haggis & then walk up to Frank and give him attention as these fights generally seem to happen in front of me. Things escalate very quickly. Whenever we leave the house, Haggis is crated for his own safety. You really need to try to keep them separated as much as possible for the Sheltie's safety. |
| Well so far today things have been quiet. Gabby is in the crate and she has pain meds so she is a bit out of it. Phoebe is just being herself. When Gabby wakes up and see's Phoe she is ok when I let her out of the crate and she goes to the window seat she turns around and growls at Phoebe. Phoebe does the stand down stare but as soon as I call Phoe she comes.
I just don't understand what could have happened these two were best buddies even eat out of the same bowl. Something must have triggered it. I don't know if it was because of the baby maybe so but Gabby was just playing. Do you think Phoebe thought she was going after him? |
| I think its possible that Phoebe thought Gabby was trying to hurt your grandson, especially considering the past examples of her strong maternal instinct.
I think its important that you make sure Gabby has her time on her window seat where she is not distrubed, she is probably cranky being in a new house and is not used to not being in charge. I would not keep them totally separate as I bet they will become friends again in time, but definitely discourage Phoebe from doing the staredown and intervene with some happy distractions if you see a problem brewing. good luck! |
DTrost wrote: I just don't understand what could have happened these two were best buddies.
So were Bear and Clyde-- and now Clyde is having surgery.  Things happen in dogs' minds that we'll never understand. |
| Same with Haggis & Frank too. Another dog fight just happened behind my chair about 15 minutes ago & now I have a few good scratches from Frank (need to cut his nails). I hope this settles down here soon too as it's very upsetting. |
| The human is the key. As soon as you hear a grumble or growl, you are there, physcially, large and in charge. The fewer words the better, remember they don't speak the same language as we do. Have some sound and action to defuse the situation by distraction. Cesar Milan's "grab" and "tzzzzzt" has worked for me many times. I'm not saying that's all I do.
The dogs were setting their challenges, but you can't let them do that. You are the dominant one, they follow you. Having unneutered males makes they a thousand times worse (I've been worrying about Bear) as hormones cloud their brains. I might be separation will be the answer for now......of course during the healing process, but while the guest is there unless you can get control. A friend who has taught me a lot about dog handling is nursing a bad hand wound from separating fighting males, so even the "experts" slip up and a fight ensues. Remember, large and incharge. Your manners, presence, etc must always let them know you are the BOSS. All this kissy face, smoochies we so love to do has to be tempered with direction and presence. Recently I shook my brother and his wife when I had their wild and crazy terrier under control less less than 5 minutes. Large and incharge. I doubt the humans learned anything, but that dog sure did. All done without words, no hitting, grabbing, etc. |
SheepieBoss wrote: Having unneutered males makes they a thousand times worse (I've been worrying about Bear) as hormones cloud their brains.
Bear is neutered. He was a rescue so he was neutered a couple of weeks before I got him. No way am I keeping an intact male of that size in the house unless I have a really good reason! |
| It does sound very much like Phoebe was protecting your grandson and it got out of hand. It also sounds like the grudge isn't being dropped, so, yeah, the human intervention is necessary.
Archie has stepped up into the patriarch/enforcer role at our house. If he thinks the puppies are being too boisterous, he'll growl at them, and do the herding dog thing of running them to ground. Mind you, the puppies have been extraordinarily good around people of all kinds/sizes/ages, but there is an occassional jump and Archie will correct the puppy right away, before we get the chance. My issue right now is that something happened between Sophie and her littermate Sherman when the humans were out. Sophies breakfast and bowl were scattered down the stairs by the back door. She seems permanently ready to take offense at anything Sherman does. Both have a tendancy to take out bad moods on their sibling. Example: No chewing my shoe, Sophie, as I take it away. She complies meekly and then snarls at Sherman if he comes near. He'll do the same, but not as much or as strongly. All corrections by humans are firm and gentle. |
| Sorry, I thought you were going to show Bear. I agree, I'd not have an intact male in the house, period, unless he's an only. |
ButtersStotch wrote: Bear is neutered. SheepieBoss wrote: Sorry, I thought you were going to show Bear. Me too! That's funny.ButtersStotch wrote: No way am I keeping an intact male of that size in the house unless I have a really good reason! SheepieBoss wrote: I'd not have an intact male in the house, period, unless he's an only. Joan too! That's funny. |
| The new book "My Smart Puppy" by Brian Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson has some really great practical techniques to help claim space and calmly assert control.
The one that comes to mind is "Mine" in which you basically teach your dog to sit whenever you get in between the dog and some object or another dog. I use it all the time with Maggie and it is great -- especially when walking on the street and she starts to pull toward another dog or sees a squirrel. I do it whenever I see Maggie looking too interested in something Chumley has. I love it because I intervene and then Maggie sits then looks up and smiles so it becomes an opportunity to reward and praise. Perhaps if you could work on "mine" with Phoebe, it might give you a technique to get her to back down the staring match. I agree with everyone else that you do need to be aware of the brewing fight long before it actually happens. |
 Thanks Valerie. I didn't know this was called Mine. I've been using this with Willoughby and it almost always works . I also reward him with a cookie. This AM, he was frightened by a very large snowman and began barking and trying to lunge at it. (our west coast wonderland) and after a sit+cookie+ priaise, he walked over to it, sniffed and then went about his business as usual. |
| I started trying this tonight, Phoe has not gotten the hang of it yet but it is keeping them somewhat comfortable together.
It seems like Phoebe is trying to keep her away from everyone in the house. As soon as Gabby comes up to one of us Phoe is pushing her away which causes Gabby to growl then the stare down begins. Since the vet does not want Gabby running around or jumping I took both of them on a nice long winter walk in the drizzle rain we are having. They got along fine until we got back in the house and Gabby got frisky. I got inbetween them and did the Mine Phoe just looked at me like I was nuts but she did respond to come and down. Once Gabby walked away she was fine. I don't give up easily so I will keep it up. Gabby is used to a crate so as soon as it starts I have been telling her "crate" she just runs to the crate it is Phoebe who is dominating and runs after her until I tell her to come then down which Phoebe does immediately. |
| Hi,
Sorry you're having these problems. Sadly, I think it's the "changing of the guards". It happens with almost all animals whom live together in groups or packs. The young up and coming alpha will challenge the leader for the place as leader. Most often, we don't see it with our dogs, unless we live in a multi-dog household. I'm not there to view first hand what happened, but, I suspect from what you've said, this is what has happened. Most dogs don't challenge for the leadership until they've reached the age of maturity. I think this is why you never noticed a problem before , but they could have given off subtle warnings to one another in ways which could easily been missed previously. In the past, I suspect that Pheobe due to her age listened to the sheltie who you said was dominate and was put in her place with a look or low growl. Now that Pheobe may be maturing she is not backing down and a fight breaks out. Actually, it's neithers fault and I wondered why the older dog is being crated and not Pheobe? The older dog may come to realize this and the jealousy may further cause things to escalate. If both dogs are fighting , both need to be shown it's not acceptable. Doesn't matter who started it. When I say crate them , this is also to give them a time out and calm down, which is a form of distraction and not used for punishment, nor a long time. If all my dogs vy for my attention, and I see it bothers Blue I simply get up and walk away. Animals have a complicated set of rules and heirachy they set for themselves. The submissive dogs couldn't care less who is the boss. As long as the boss is not cruel they will not oust them. (This occurance happens very rarely in wolves where the pack will band together and oust a very cruel alpha.) Most often, each know their place and are accepting of it. Wolves like dogs need the reassurance of a strong leader, which is why we humans must let them know that we are the boss of all of them. I hope no one misunderstands me when I say "boss" , we too can never be mean or cruel to our dogs only loving but firm. They feel more secure knowing their place. I'm going off a bit on topic here but just wanted to give a bit of background on pack mentality. If the dogs listen to you that makes this so much easier to deal with. In my household, Shaggy was always alpha amongst the dogs. With her passing, Blue naturally would have emerged as the leader as he was the pre-existing dog in the household (that makes a difference) and the oldest (that too sometimes makes a difference). When Shaggy passed, Merlin was only 4 months , still Blue a submissive dog never felt comfortable in the roll he stepped in. He tried to put Merlin in his place and Merlin at only six months reacted by pinning him and growling close to his face. Therebye challenging him for dominance. No fight broke out as Blue didn't fight back and accepted he was now the subordinate. Merlin was very young to have asserted himself in the alpha role but Blue was comfortable enought to let him take over. No fights have ever occurred between these two, but in your case with two that are not willing to back down for the top spot there may be continued problems until one acknowledges being submissive to the other. The dynamics changed again when I brought Panda into the household. He is very submissive and has never tried to step into the leadership role. Old Blue, who is now 17 saw his position slipping further down the heirachy and after 2 years has not accepted Panda. He continues to put Panda in his place. In dog life this is to insure that Panda is down in last spot. He even aligned himself with Merlin whom is the king amongst them. Blue rough houses daily with Merlin and grooms him. Merlin is kind to both but will race over if Panda and Blue stare down at each other and always goes to Blues side. Panda outnumbered and not willing to take on both, always walks away. I suspect it would be different if Merlin was not around. Always reminds me of a kid acting tough saying na na naaa naa I have a big brother to back me up. Distraction and always being aware is the key. I took away triggers - toys and treats are the biggest ones. The alpha dog always races to get them and submissive dogs don't challenge. If you have two dogs vying for leadership those triggers may cause a fight to break out. It's always better to seperate dominate dogs if you are handing out treats. Some dogs are so easy going they don't have a problem at all with sharing. With your two you may want to try that and it sounds as if Pheobe listens to you, so keep reinforcing that fighting is not acceptable. I know by my description it sounds like chaos in my house, but while there are some problems, fights are extremely rare. They all listen to me when I tell them sit or down , to diffuse any possible confrontations. It gets complicated with dog dynamics and the most important thing of all is letting them know fighting is not acceptable. The SPCA always gets calls (they told me) about dogs fighting at the park. It's always the upright whose dog lost the fight that calls or whose dog was fighting another dog that attacked it. Their mandate is you never get the "winners" upright calling about this. Yet, both dogs are at fault. A submissive dog will put their head down, avoid eye contact and walk away or show belly up if they are not interested in fighting. A dog that won't back down is just as dominate and may be the reason the other dog attacked it in the first place. (some offleash parks won't allow intact males to come for that reason as other dogs sense this and will attack them). So in a nutshell, although one dog seems more at fault than the other, they are both guilty of fighting. Each should be crated or given time out. Groan, I feel for you and it's a bit of a challenge for you, especially since you will have the two for another month. Hang in there, be firm and treat them both equally and relish that you are the Alpha B in the household.
Good Luck! Marianne and the boys |
| The sheltie is getting older, so less patient and as a senior wants peace and quiet. Phoebe is getting older, and I saw you had some similiar issues with her and your collie last year. It take 2 to fight, so not worth the effort to find out who started it..It doesn't do any good because a dog won't understand. They speak "doggie", so it is up to you to jsut make them both understand "no fighting".
I once had a dog that was dog- agressive. I was a foster home for rescues so it was very difficult to manage. I had a behaviorist come over and give me some tips. She told me a few things that I found very useful, so I will share them with you. Dogs don't always like each other. Some dogs like all dogs, some are particular about who they like and some don't like any. We can't change that. Sometimes it is not our dog that is the instigator. Often another dog is rude, or giving weird signals so the interpretation is off. In our home my dog had to learn to "mind his own business". He didn't have to like having strange dogs in the house, but he had to learn to ignore it. It was up to me to communicate this to my dog. He was not to strut or stare or argue....He had to ignore....and if he was not comfortable he could come to me for a safe place or his crate. It was up to me to reward him for ignoring and anytime he came to me to "get away" he had to be sure that I would deal with it... It is of utmost important to NOT allow the unwanted behavior. I became very good at steering it off, and diffusing potential situations. It is not about being fair, or letting one do something over the other. It is about the human being in charge and in control. If the dogs have any questions or concerns they are to go to the human.... If I feel a dog needs to be rewarded, they get rewarded. For example, often I will go to the kitchen and make a coffee. Dixie is so good at coming and sitting politely by the treat cupboard. Bosley will often come and stand beside her. She gets a treat, He doesn't. You see? I decide that I like her to sit nice and polite. If Bosley sat nice and polite then he would get one, too, but he didn't... so too bad. MY decision because I control all good things. Now specific for Pheoebe, I see a lot of people-guarding happening...not guarding as protecting, but guarding as not sharing...There is a booklet called "MINE" buy Joan Donaldson that covers many different aspects of this behavior. It is well worth the read. |
| Thank you all for your tips. The reason Phoebe is not in the crate is because she out grew the one she had and I don't have one for her. When the fight occured my thoughts were on getting Gabby to the Vet. When I came home from the vet I thought it was too late for her to have a time out. My brother has always had a crate for Gabby and she feels very secure in it, the door is never closed on the crate you just have to tell her "crate" and she goes.
When Phoebe does the stare down thing after Gabby growls she has to stay in the foyer gated in. I guess you can call it her crate area, but she hates it because she can't be with everyone so she just lays there with her nose through the gate and does this moan thing for a few minutes. Once she knows she is being ignored she just stares at everyone. I just bought the book from Amazon can't wait to get it. I did have the problems before with Annie ( Collie ) but since she was with the trainer it stopped. For some reason I don't think they like each other any more and Gabby is used to being the domanent dog especially since she runs my brothers household. It could be the older dog thing we have been calling her the grumpy old lady for about a year now. Funny since they were together for about a week just two weeks ago and on Thanksgiving and everything was fine. |
DTrost wrote: For some reason I don't think they like each other any more and Gabby is used to being the domanent dog especially since she runs my brothers household. It could be the older dog thing we have been calling her the grumpy old lady for about a year now. Funny since they were together for about a week just two weeks ago and on Thanksgiving and everything was fine.
It happens. There's a German Shepard named Ace at the park that Bear and Clyde loved to play with and the feeling was mutual. One day Ace was running full speed, loving that all the other dogs were chasing him. He was heading the pack and there were about 3 or 4 smaller dogs and then Clyde and Bear. Ace turned around to see who was chasing him and ran full force into a concrete garbage can-- really, really hard. He yelped and went down. When he got his bearings back (he was knocked motionless for a moment), he looked up and who do you think finally caught up with him? Clyde and Bear of course, who I don't think realize Ace took the hit that he had. Ace went nuts as soon as they acted like they wanted to play and got crazy aggressive towards them. The only thing that we can think of is that he took that hit and either thought the boys did it to him, or just plain associated the pain with Bear and Clyde because every since that day, we can't be in the park together. Ace goes nuts to the point where it's scary. The thing that really stinks is that, for once, the boys really didn't do anything! |
| Thanks for the "MINE" recommendations. Definitely going to check it out.
I have been averaging about one dog fight a day now which usually happens right behind my back as I'm sitting here in my office working. I really have been trying to stay on top of it before it happens but sometimes it kicks up really fast without me noticing Frank walking in. Haggis is almost 1 and won't be getting neutered anytime soon because he will be shown. I know this is probably coincidence, but these fights started kicking up after Frank got neutered himself. I wonder if that has put him into a more subordinate role? The boys are both fine with Rebecca, but she's top dog. I was wondering from you guys that are experienced with this, how long before things settled down in your household? The breeder is telling me that this is not going to get better, even with me intervening. |
VerveUp wrote: I was wondering from you guys that are experienced with this, how long before things settled down in your household? The breeder is telling me that this is not going to get better, even with me intervening.
Your breeder told me that, too and not only do I not believe it's true, I think that kind of attitude makes things worse because you'll start believing it, too. It really upset me at the time she said it but, after talking to other people with dog experience (including that Kom's owner at the show) and doing some reading, I felt much more positive that we can make things work. I've already found just watching and paying attention, along with taking away or limiting the triggers has already helped a lot. We haven't had a scrap since I was in PA 2 weeks ago, down from a few times in a week. Once you know what to look for and recognize what can turn into an explosive situation, that gives you the ability to diffuse it-- and I only say that because it really has been working for us. That's not just a quote from a book or something I read somewhere! Will Frank continue to go after Haggis if you scoop him up? Or vice versa? How have you tried intervening already when you have to? |
ButtersStotch wrote: Will Frank continue to go after Haggis if you scoop him up? Or vice versa? How have you tried intervening already when you have to?
No, as soon as I grab onto the scruff of Haggis' neck, Frank backs off but Haggis will continue to growl even with my hands on him. It just boggles my mind since they are buds 99% of the time. I just hope it doesn't get to a point where they hate each other. I will continue to try to intervene before it turns into anything. I hope I have the results like you do Jill, but maybe Bear got his rank positioning by the way he injured Clyde. Please keep posting about your progress so maybe that will give me some hope. |
| No, Clyde still humps Bear and I don't see any change in terms of the way the seem to "fall in" with each other. Clyde got him in the lip in their last fight a couple of weeks ago and, ever since then, that seemed to have slightly humbled Bear. I don't think he ever felt pain from a bite before and he didn't like it. |
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