Struggles for Dominance-- Could Really Use Some Help
Let me tell you what happened today and maybe you guys can give me some advice on how to get through this time with less blood and injuries: I missed the first part of what happened but I walked into the room, Clyde was walking towards the front door, turned away from Bear. Bear was standing right behind him making his annoying low whine (think of a groaning Wookie). I don't think he was touching Clyde at this point. Clyde has facing the corner ignoring Bear. I walked over and nudged Bear in the back leg and told him to back off. I attempted to get in between them and they moved over to the stairs landing and took up the same stance-- Clyde in the corner and Bear coming up behind him groaning. Bear was leaning on Clyde, with Clyde standing very tight and still. I let this go on for about 30 seconds and I attempted to just step between them without touching them and hoped that one would follow me. But neither did. As soon as I got involved, or in an extreme coincidence, all hell broke loose and they went nuts on each other. Neither one would back down and we finally had to pull them apart as best we could. I think all of us here are pretty shaken up. I'm pretty freaked out that Clyde is limping and hurt. He's walking and moving but he's really favoring his front leg when he puts weight on it. I think he's mainly shaken up and sore but if it doesn't improve by the morning, we're off to the vet. So, what would you guys suggest I do? My first impulse is to back off and let them work it out on their own but, especially after today, I'm really afraid someone is going to get hurt. As I go over what just happened, I think it was my fault that the fight happened and I feel terrible, even more so that Clyde is hurt. I'd love to hear from people that have gone through this or can give other suggestions on how much I should or shouldn't be involved. Thanks, Jill[/i] |
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You think they're fighting over who will get to walk right behind you first or who will just be your favorite? I really just replied because I felt bad for Clyde since he got hurt.  I hope this is something that resolves itself and quickly. |
| Yikes - I'm so sorry this is happening. I hope you get some great advice, but from me all I can offer is the hope that it will soon be better. |
| Jill.
I am not a behaviorist, and do not "do" agression. It is far too complicated and I am not going to suggest anything except to read 2 articles: Go to this page and halfway down you will see Part I dated Jan 1, 2002 and Page 2, April 1, 2002. It is facinating reading for anyone who is ready to accept exactly what they do not understand. http://dvm.adv100.com/dvm/author/author ... &sort=null What I like about the way this is spelled out in the "analysis" in Part II is that we can really respect how little we know and how dangerous it is for us to misinterpet signals and how easy and often this can be done. |
| Awwww poor Clyde! That's so unfair. I hope your big sweetie is all better by morning.
Maggie and Chummie have gotten into some snarly scuffles although luckily there have been no serious injuries. When I see them tensing up, I distract them by giving a command ("sit" or "down") and making them obey. That is, I try to get their attention on me instead of each other. I never try to intervene or get in between them because that triggers them to launch on each other. For a long time, I also would routinely "down" Maggie for an extended period of time whenever there had been a fight. I didn't care who started it. I just wanted Maggie to realize she would be happier if she could avoid it. I figured Maggie was more trainable than Chum in that regard. Good luck. I hope this phase passes quickly. |
| Thank you, Nicole. The situation in that article is pretty different from what is going on with the boys but some of the info pertained well and made sense. Whether or not you choose to buy into the alpha theory (which I'm still on the fence over) it makes perfect sense that as Bear ages, he's changing, and that his behavior is going through changes, too. He's acting like a jerk and Clyde doesn't like it. As I replay this evening's fight over, I'm pretty sure that Bear was the aggressor and Clyde reacted.
In reading the article, it looks like I reacted ok. I didn't try to shield Clyde from Bear. I cleaned him up and took care of his wounds but I didn't alienate or isolate Bear so he has no reason to view Clyde as "needing protection." I should point out, counter to the article's dogs, within 10 minutes of the fight, Bear and Clyde were lying side by side, up against each other outside on the patio. They aren't holding grudges and they're getting along fine, same as always. This isn't a case where they're just tolerating each other, they're still acting like buddies. In an evil twist, Lucy has been prancing around like this is the best night of her life. She seems to have really enjoyed the altercation. *sigh* My evil little girl. |
Valerie wrote: Awwww poor Clyde! That's so unfair. I hope your big sweetie is all better by morning.
Maggie and Chummie have gotten into some snarly scuffles although luckily there have been no serious injuries. When I see them tensing up, I distract them by giving a command ("sit" or "down") and making them obey. That is, I try to get their attention on me instead of each other. I never try to intervene or get in between them because that triggers them to launch on each other. For a long time, I also would routinely "down" Maggie for an extended period of time whenever there had been a fight. I didn't care who started it. I just wanted Maggie to realize she would be happier if she could avoid it. I figured Maggie was more trainable than Chum in that regard. Good luck. I hope this phase passes quickly. That sounds pretty similar to us, too. We down Bear because, quite frankly, he needs it. He has a stubborn drive (I think it's the guard dog in him) and he has a hard time settling and backing down. I tried commands before I stepped in but they were so deep into whatever communication that they had going, they wouldn't budge. I had hoped my walking through would distract rather than instigate. Have you ever broken up an ongoing fight or have they fizzled out on their own? Normally the boys fizzle out with no one getting hurt. I hope I'm overreacting and today was an isolated incident. |
| I might be horrible, but when it actually becomes a fight, I leave the room and that typically breaks it up because one of them will want to follow me. I have never reached in. They have sharp teeth! |
| USUALLY it is best to let them settle it. If you interrupt them before they settle whatever started things, then they will just resume things at a later date. It sounds like that was the case, as you described they were all chummy/chummy afterwards - not a case of a personality clash.
As Bear is growing up, he is trying to change his position in the pack. This is normal, and always happens - unless the younger dog is so low on the pecking order that they don't even try to move up as they mature. They just need to work things out. You know your dogs best - whether to let them settle things with you there to supervise, or if you need to stop it. Stopping things is not usually the best solution - I wouldn't unless things get real bad. And it always sounds horrible!  |
got sheep wrote: Stopping things is not usually the best solution - I wouldn't unless things get real bad. And it always sounds horrible!
Lol. I know it. You'd think they'd be missing limbs by the sounds they were making. Today I'm glad we separated them. I think what made it worse was that Clyde fell (he bumped into the bottom stair in the scuffle and went down) and Bear fell on him. I think that fueled the fire for both of them. I don't mind them working them out on their own. and that's usually the method I subscribe to as well, but I worry when one (or both) gets hurt. In this case, at least they're evenly matched so neither one is whomping on the other. |
| Sorry that clyde got hurt in the altercation. It is hard as Bear is at the silly teenage phase, unfortunately, finding his oats as they say (looking to be the Alpha of the family). Unfortunately Bear outweighs Clyde in weight and size too. The fact that you stood between the two of them was both taking on the Alpha role of protecting you. Very hard with young male dogs at this stage, as they are testing each other to see who ends up being the boss. Both probably feel like they are your protectors and fights happen.
Believe it or not it is why not many run all the same sexes together for that very reason. One good thing is two dogs will fight till the other goes into submission, two bitches going at it is worse, they keep fighting wether one has gone into submission or not.
I was at a friends place and two bitches went at each other, one a young bitch of 2 the other the matriarch of the family and 6 years old, it was a challenge for being top bitch of the pack and in the end we had to get the hose and squirt them to seperate them, then pulled them away from each other as they would of killed each other
I hope all settles down in your household and the boys can work it out, sorry I have no advice for your situation, it really is a hard one, especially if they end up taking a dislike to each other. Just hoping that does not happen and they will settle back to being the best of buddies with each other. Sheesh Teenagers   |
| It is scary to hear two dogs suddenly sound like they're going to kill each other. I haven't had this problem with my 3 girls, but I have seen it often enough with rescue dogs. For them they seemed to be establishing territory though, and resource guarding a lot (maybe because they were used to having so little). I almost never have 2 rescues at once, but on the rare occasions that I have, I made sure each had time to roam the house without interference from the other. Time spent in a crate or a separate room for each, as well as supervised time together.
On one hand I think it's good for them to be allowed to sort it out for themselves, possibly lessening the time they battle for dominance? On the other hand, I don't want them to hurt each other so cooling off periods are good for me at least, and seem to be good for them. |
| Right after Norman died, we had a huge power struggle going on. It didn't help that Toby was almost 2 and a teenager. We really assumed that Carl would take over since he was older and had been here first. Since there were raging hormones in the little man, I think he thought he had a shot. Most of the time it was just constant humping Carl humping Toby, Toby attempting to hump Carl. (I would still rather have a thousand humping dogs than one girl in heat!) We only really had a couple of fights during that time and it was usually when Bob was there and not me. It seems like whenever they thought there was an opening in the hierarchy (Bob is the low man on the totem pole) they'd give it a shot. They also seemed to know that Bob had no clue how to handle the situation so it would escalate.
If I saw anything from them that looked like they were even thinking about starting with each other, I would distract them or break it up. If they got into each other, I'd let it go for a bit and then try to break it up without physical contact from me. I'd roll a soccer ball into the middle of it or throw a big stuffed animal at them. It would distract them but they didn't know where or whom it came from so they couldn't redirect their actions anywhere. It didn't take too long for them to sort it out. Carl does seem to reassert his position every chance he gets. He humps Toby whenever he gets a chance. |
| Poor Clyde! How's he doing this morning, Jill? Did he stop limping?
I have noticed that Beaureguard is trying to move up in the pack now too. He'll be two in two weeks, so it is the teenage "agnst" I think. But, I had an almost 3 year old male here, as a foster, for about six weeks, and they had a few rounds struggling for dominance. Nothing as serious as what you described, though. I lean toward letting them work it out, too. I tried to distract them, much like what Mandy described, by throwing something for them to chase or getting their attention somewhere else. I'll also run them through a series of commands (sit, down, stay, etc) to get them back to "calm, submissive" state. I hope it's a short lived thing for your boys and that they'll work it out and be best buds. No more wounds! |
| Hi Jill-
We went through an aggression problem earlier this year with Meesha and Panda going after each other with Meesha being the aggressor and also Kaytee going after everyone but Meesha. (Ah... the wonders of pups coming of age!) We worked with a personal trainer for several weeks trying to get a handle on what was setting them off and watching the body language (staring, stiff or frozen stance, etc.) in order to defuse a fight before it happened. Once they get in that intense focus of dog fight instinct there's no way to back up a step. We too used distraction or redirecting their focus. We have peace in the pack now but I think it really depends on the dogs involved. As for the actual fights, they can be down right terrifying for those who witness one but also dangerous for anyone trying to stop one. If you visit the Leerburg website, there is an article on how to break up a dog fight if it becomes necessary- http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm . I've never had to try it but I think the approach is well worth reading. Jaci |
| Nicole: Those where great articles, something to think about. Thank you for sharing.
Jill: sorry to hear you are going through this. I hope things work out for you. |
6Girls wrote: Hi Jill-
Once they get in that intense focus of dog fight instinct there's no way to back up a step. We too used distraction or redirecting their focus. Jaci, What did the trainer suggest as far as distracting the dog once they were in the "frozen" state? It sounds like you were also experiencing the unmovable dog syndrome that seems to happen here, too. Once they hit that state, commands are completely ineffective. Using myself as a distraction definitely didn't work out. |
| Thanks for all the comments so far, everyone. Clyde seems better this morning. He's still favoring the leg but nothing like the sad hobble from last night. The boys actually had grooming appointments this morning and Clyde was raring to go. One of the vet techs from my vet works at the facility where they were going for grooming so I had her look Clyde over and she said it looks like it was likely a muscle strain but she was going to watch him all day and if there was any indication that it may be something else, she'd take him to the vet's office and call me. She's a really cool girl and I trust that she'll take good care of him.
To add insult to injury after an already stressful evening, we're trying a new groomer who I already didn't like before she even touched the dogs. When I had talked to the owners of the place (which does, dog day care, grooming and boarding), they were awesome and very excited to have the boys even after I explained all their grooming needs. They talked to the groomer who said she'd be glad to take them. The attitude that I got when I got in there was nothing like I was expecting. I don't expect her to know the Komondor breed (although she felt like she needed to tell me what I should be doing, in her opinion-- which was completely opposite what I'd learned so far from other Kom owners) but Clyde had a few mats by his neck and a couple tangles by his butt that I would've taken care of myself had we not had all the drama yesterday. She made it out like he was the worst matted dog she had ever seen and wanted to shave him. I was ready to explode but I just asked her if she was uncomfortable with working on him in this condition, should I take him back? I tried to be nice and make it all about her comfort level but really I was pretty ticked. I really hate when groomers give you this attitude like you're a bad dog owner because an OES has a few mats. It's pretty clear to me that she doesn't know the breed. Nonetheless, we left them there so hopefully all will come out well. |
Just catching up on this thread. I'm SO sorry about Clyde and Bear's fight!  Ever since the pit bull attacked Mandy's Carl in Philly, I cringe at just the thought of two dogs going at each other.
Isn't it typical, though, that they're now buddies again? It's just top control they each want, but they still love each other. Geesh!! Hope Clyde gets through his grooming day okay and doesn't have to go to the vet. Keep us posted!! |
| The two boys (brothers from the same litter) that we had while I was growing up would fight occasionally. Since I was only about 10 or 11 when they were in the fighting stage...I couldn't physically do anything to break them up. Their fights usually only lasted a few seconds, but if I caught them during the "pre-fight stage" I would try to distract them. What worked best for me was making a loud noise to distract them...rolled up newspaper slapped on the counter, large book dropped flat on the wood floor. Not that scaring them is the best alternative, but it worked to distract them from their argument. |
Amanda P wrote: The two boys (brothers from the same litter) that we had while I was growing up would fight occasionally. Since I was only about 10 or 11 when they were in the fighting stage...I couldn't physically do anything to break them up. Their fights usually only lasted a few seconds, but if I caught them during the "pre-fight stage" I would try to distract them. What worked best for me was making a loud noise to distract them...rolled up newspaper slapped on the counter, large book dropped flat on the wood floor. Not that scaring them is the best alternative, but it worked to distract them from their argument.
I'd take scaring over fighting any day! The problem was that they would not respond to anything-- I did try some stuff when they were going at it. It was like they were in a bubble and no distraction was getting through. No joke, I'm actually thinking about getting an air horn. That should startle them out of a scuffle. |
Thanks for reading those articles. Canine behavior and agression is very complicated and I think it is a disservice to our dogs when we try to simplify it so that WE can understand it. 
The fact that they are friends again is a good sign, but the fighting to draw blood would be a concern. This was not the normal "get out of my face" squabbling that ususally lasts a few seconds. I don't let dogs work it out themselves if it is more than a couple growls, snaps and maybe a few seconds of tussle. I don't think it is healthy to let it escalate to any higher level. If anything looks like it could be developing into something I defuse it right away, as it is made perfectly clear that I do not tolerate certain behaviors. Each dog to their separate corner for some cooling off time, as it take 2 to Tango. I don't believe that they lie and plan for the next attack during time-out, but hopefully look at it as being "controled" by me so they don't have to worry about it. I think you did the right thing, but next time you may want to step in a bit earlier and/or with more intent. A loud noise or something to distract them if required, but you need to be careful that it doesn't set them off, either. If you can get their attention, and get them to sit or lay and then get a small reward for listening, great...but if it is past that then I would do what I had to do. A cold stare is a threatening stance, a dare in some cases, while a growl or snap is more of a guarding or protective reaction. The threat should always be defused, in my opninion. And I don't think it would be a bad idea to keep them separated when not supervised, for the next while...weeks, maybe months, until all the teen naughtiness is over. |
| As James and I talked it over today at lunch, and went over what each of us saw, we're slowly putting together a better picture. I now think the blood was not due to a bite, but a puncture from Bear's tooth when he fell on Clyde after Clyde went down. It wasn't Bear's fault directly that Clyde's leg got hurt-- in other words, he didn't cause the injury.
Clyde and Bear roam pretty separately already so having their own space isn't a problem. I hope I didn't make this sound as if they were actively chasing each other around causing trouble relentlessly. I think even more importantly, I'm going to remove any possible trigger. James pointed out that there was a bone on the stairs, that I hadn't noticed at the time, so now I'm wondering if that played a big part. Clyde definitely has food issues so that wouldn't surprise me. I'm not trying to justify any of it, just make sense out of why it may have happened and how I can prevent it from happening again. I also welcome any more suggestions and experiences, too. I try to never put too much faith into only one solution since what works for one of us won't necessarily work for all of us. |
Quote: No joke, I'm actually thinking about getting an air horn. That should startle them out of a scuffle.
I hadn't thought of that, but it sounds like it just might work. What happened with your two sounds very similar to what we have been going through. It seems to come in waves, and it isn't as bad as it was, but it does still happen. My guys usually only go at it for a few seconds - so far. If I see one or the other stiffen, I know it's coming and I distract them. If you don't catch it in time they can no longer hear you. If I stand up and say hey, and clap my hands loudly they both stop. (usually - if I stand or start towards them they stop with no clap) When Zeke was younger I had a very hard time letting them go and sorting it out on their own. Once I did step back and let them go, it happened much less often. Now about 85% of the time all Tucker has to do is growl or hang his head and Zeke hits the floor, usually belly up. But like you said, it isn't over food or toys. It's always something else. And ever since those pits, Zeke is just a little different. I am too, so maybe he is picking that up from me. As for the airhorn idea - that will get their attention and distract them. The problem will be having it at hand when you need it. I don't guess there is such a thing as one that isn't so loud?? My guys aren't afraid of loud noises, but I certainly don't want to start anything! Shellie |
| Back in August I adopted a 10 month old Great Pyr. from the shelter.
Byron, my Great Pyr. is great with my goldens but for some reason, on a few occasions, has gotten into it with Fred, my OES. I am of the same opinion as Bosley's Mom. I do not just let them work it out. If I see that something looks like it is starting I diffuse it right away. I found that the trigger for Byron and Fred is usually a bone so no toys are left out unsupervised. And I always leave Byron, the Great Pyr., crated when I am not around. Byron and Fred will always be buddy-buddy after any altercations they have. In my case I think it is mainly a young male, Byron, feeling his oats and trying to establish a new pecking order. |
jackcjjc wrote: In my case I think it is mainly a young male, Byron, feeling his oats and trying to establish a new pecking order.
I think that's some of our problem as well. Bear just turned 14 months old and Clyde is 2. Bear's breed is not known for its submissiveness and backing down either! Koms are independent leaders and I think Bear is just starting to realize he doesn't have to let Clyde push him around all the time either. Clyde may be sweet but he isn't innocent. I know they share the blame. |
| ah, jill, I'm sorry. Didn't see this til now. I have no suggestions, just sympathy...I hope clyde is better and that they are better toward each other. |
| Jill,
You aren't alone. We have spats/fights between Lucky & Sam occasionally. If we can catch them before they start fighting we separate them for about an hour while they both cool off. I haven't figured out a magic cure for them as occasionally it just seems like one of them is in a crappy mood but I can tell you that the fights get further and further apart. Hopefully one day the next fight won't ever happen. |
| Jill,
How did Bear look when he came back from the new groomer? |
Sheepie Heaven wrote: Jill,
How did Bear look when he came back from the new groomer? Lol. The same but with cleaner feet! On the other hand, Clyde looked absolutely stunning. He's never looked better. But the way I was treated as a customer at that place says that I will NEVER be returning. Not only was the groomer completely rude when we dropped them off, it was clear she didn't know the breeds well but she was telling me what I "should" be doing. She was trying to tell me what Bear's cords were supposed to look like, but didn't understand that they aren't "born" with them and that cording is a long and ugly process until things take hold. From the moment we walked in the door to pick them up, she never quit complaining about how long it took to brush Clyde out, how much her back hurt and how hard it was on her. No one wants to hear "Wow, I'm glad those aren't my dogs," from someone who spent all day with them. She made it harder on herself anyway because she told me that she won't use anything with a blade so she must have hand worked every mat and tangle. I expressly told her, feel free to strip Clyde if it was too much but she refused. He looked beautiful but it isn't worth the stress on me. She had me almost in tears when I left and that's not like me to get like that over something. |
Quote: What did the trainer suggest as far as distracting the dog once they were in the "frozen" state?
We used the distraction BEFORE they got to the point of a fight. Once they reach the frozen state with the head lowered, eye to eye staring with hackles raised I think it's too late to do anything unless you leave leashes on both and they can be separated. We had to observe our knuckle-heads to figure out what was setting them off. While Panda is never one to actually start fights, she was the reason some took place. We found that it was usually her being her over-exuberant, never-back-down, in-your-face, no-limits, fearless, everything-is-fun self. With Kaytee, it was too much excitement or just the sound of the other dogs getting excited that would set her off. With the temperaments we were dealing with, we only kept them separated for about 5 to 10 minutes after a fight. My thought is that they have to come to terms with each other. But they also had to learn that the behavior is not going to be tolerated so confinement away from the pack was the punishment including an escort with a firm grip of the scruff. Meesha has drawn blood in a few fights so she does mean business if they get to the point of a fight. Despite her 40 pound frame, she has never backed down. Believe me when I say it took a lot of constant supervision while they were together and immediate intervention to prevent a fight. (The fights were always in the house with Panda and Meesha.) If we see the behavior even begin to start we give a verbal warning. If it doesn't settle things, I back Meesha down by walking into or invading her space to get her attention on me and getting her away from the other dog. I have also poked her in the side/chest to break the focus during the low key beginning of the behavior only, never during the intense phase. Panda is sent in the other direction and told "enough" or "settle" which took her a while to learn. I'm working with a pack of 6 girls...maybe the boys are different or more intense. I think age has also brought about some peace... Panda just turned 2 and Kaytee will be 2 the end of this month. That phase between 1 and 2 years can be tough. Jaci |
| Jill,
Bring Clyde & Bear on down. My groomer would love them. She has had 4 sheepies (when we had Marcus) all on the same day grooming them and then they get to play in a contained area until I pick them up. Plus she is so reasonable on her prices and her shop is inside my vets office. I love her to death. Send them down and we'll let Lucky, Sam, & Clyde gang up on Bear.  Oh and London can annoy them all.
batonrougesheepies |
Quote: James pointed out that there was a bone on the stairs, that I hadn't noticed at the time, so now I'm wondering if that played a big part.
I recommend that you pick up ALL the toys, chews, nylabones, etc. You wouldn't believe what one stupid toy/chew can do if one dog thinks another shouldn't have it. We almost always have 20-30 Nylabones around the house but the one left in the middle of the floor would be the one to cause a challenge. We later put a basket in the corner filled with their toys and if they want one, they go get it but we round them all up at the end of each day. |
| Hi Jill,
How are things going with Clyde & Bear? Any improvement? We've been having problems recently too with Haggis the puppy Norfolk going after Frank. Although 99% of the time they are best buds. Haggis is nearing age 1 & not neutered so I think a lot has to do with the whole dominance issue. This has been a recent thing here at the house & I'm really trying to nip it before it gets bad. Since there is such a size difference between Haggis & Frank, I really can't let them sort things out on their own. In the beginning, Frank would just cower to the aggressiveness but now he is starting to stick up for himself and Haggis is getting more intense. Fortunately, I can pick Haggis up by the scruff of the neck & remove him from the situation. I really would like to create a diversion before it happens, but it flares up so fast that I'm not in tune with the signs yet. |
| Things have settled down. It's almost like they just had a cranky week and now they're feeling better. I do notice their behavior more now though and as soon as we see a potential trigger (like food or toys), and a situation potentially escalating, we grab the toy and move them away from each other before they have time to get excited. We've been doing a lot of distraction to keep them from scuffling. |
| I don't have any advice. But I know if anyone can keep a handle on things it would be you. How scary that happened and hopefully that will blow over and everything will be back to normal. |
| Hi,
I can relate as even after two years Old Blue will go into attack mode after Panda if a trigger (such as food or toys) are on the floor. Otherwise he ignores him. I am concerned however as Merlin will immediately rush to his buddy's defence if Panda even tries to stand up to Blue. It gets complicated with the dynamics of the three involved...urg boys!!! Merlin and Panda are otherwise friends and will often lay together on the floor such as the pics I've seen of your two. Merlin and Blue are best buds and always play together. You may be right that a bone which is perhaps the trigger that caused the fight in the first place. In my case the last fight occurred just a few days ago..one of my cats leaped onto the top of the pantry - knocking down a bag of opened cat kibbles..thereby dumping them all over the floor. FOOD!!! I scrambled to pick it up. Normally Merlin the Alpha can race over to grab something and the other two won't even challenge him. In this case as the kibbles were all over...each scrambled to get some, Blue then went into attack mode with Panda, Merlin raced over to help..the battle royal happened..but me as super alpha managed to break it up. Don't be so hard on yourself, you seemed to be very aware of the body language and distraction is what I find works best if I see Blue in that mood. Being very observant of removing possible triggers helps. With my three removing the triggers has helped decrease any outbreaks and distraction if I notice the body language. Still every once in a while things happen such as I mentioned above. Glad that all are okay! Marianne and the boys |
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