Warning: religion related
****** This Pastor has guts!! Thought you might enjoy this interesting prayer given in Kansas at the opening session of their Senate. It seems prayer still upsets some people. When Minister Joe Wright was asked to open the new session of the Kansas Senate, everyone was expecting the usual generalities, but this is what they heard: "Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask your forgiveness and to seek your direction and guidance. We know Your Word says, 'Woe to those who call evil good,'! but that is exactly what we have done. We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and reversed our values. We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery. We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare. We have killed our unborn and called it choice. We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable. We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building self esteem. We have abused power and called it politics. We have coveted our neighbor's possessions and called it ambition. We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression. We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment. Search us, Oh, God, and know our hearts today; cleanse us from every sin and set us free. Amen!" The response was immediate A number of legislators walked out during the prayer in protest. In 6 short weeks, Central Christian Church, where Rev. Wright is pastor, logged more than 5,000 phone calls with only 47 of those calls responding negatively. The church is now receiving international requests for copies of this prayer from India, Africa and Korea. Commentator Paul Harvey aired this prayer on his radio program, "The Rest of the Story," and received a larger response to this program than any other he has ever aired. |
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| I got this in my inbox and was really surprised to find out that it's true. Tha actual wording is a little different but the essence is the same:
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/wright.asp It's thought provoking. I'm a big believer in the separation of Church and State, so I think starting the session with prayer is inappropriate. It's not that I don't believe in God - but even Jesus preached that one must obey the laws of God and the laws of man -"Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." |
| Apart from the prayer motif, one has to admit that your pastor has highlighted much of the double speak (by that I mean changing the meaning of words) in present day society - politics included. Here in Missouri, the hot topic is Amendment 2 on the November ballot asking voters to amend the state constitution to permit embryonic stem cell research. To avoid objections of openents that note that such research involves human cloning, the amendment redefines cloning as implantation of a fertilized ovum in a womb, thereby allowing proponents of the amendment to state that it does not allow cloning since all research is done outside the womb - contrary to all established definitions of human cloning. |
| I've seen this before and think that minister is right in everything he said.
I don't see how any American can separate church from state, when our nation was founded by people seeking religious freedoms. Some think taking religion out of government is religious freedom, I see it as a loss of freedom. When did the morals of America start declining? Read his prayer again. When man started calling evil good. I feel that abortion, the declaration that a fetus is not a life until.......... started a chain of events that we're paying for. Loss of respect for human life, that which God creates has led to a loss of respect for life in general. As George said, ".......November ballot asking voters to amend the state constitution to permit embryonic stem cell research. To avoid objections of openents that note that such research involves human cloning, the amendment redefines cloning as implantation of a fertilized ovum in a womb, thereby allowing proponents of the amendment to state that it does not allow cloning since all research is done outside the womb - contrary to all established definitions of human cloning." Wouldn't that definition also mean that since a clone is a "fertilized ovum in a womb", that the onset of a pregnancy is also life? And, to take that life would be a sin against God, not a law (choice) of man. Jesus did preach that one must obey the laws of God, and those of man. But, which did He speak of most often? The laws of man "have" been changed to accomodate man, ignoring the laws of God. Our forefather's wrote our laws in accordance with those of God's. Everything should be opened with a prayer. We should want God to bless us, to lead our way. We can't expect God to bless our government and the people just because we changed the definition of a word. All of those word defining changes were of moral conduct. Has our country been blessed as it was in the past, or have we seen a decline. jmop |
I do love a good political debate  Mouthy, nothing personal intended because I know where you're coming from but I can't help but ask:
mouthypf wrote: I don't see how any American can separate church from state, when our nation was founded by people seeking religious freedoms. The Puritans who came to this country for religious freedom had to leave England because they were being persecuted and killed for not practicing the state religion. The people who came here intentionally separated Church and State so that everyone would have the freedom to practice their own religion in safety. So, how does the incorporation of Christian religious beliefs into the laws of our land ensure religious freedom for non Christians? mouthypf wrote: The laws of man "have" been changed to accomodate man, ignoring the laws of God. Our forefather's wrote our laws in accordance with those of God's. In the 1700s our founding fathers created a system of laws and rights that applied to only white, land-owning men. Women, white men without property and anyone non-white had no rights. God does not discriminate, so therefore I would say that the original laws of this country were not in accordance with God's Law and over time they have rightly been changed. mouthypf wrote: Has our country been blessed as it was in the past, or have we seen a decline.
Our country has struggled with some pretty tough times - I'm sure people were far more God fearing during the Civil War and Great Depression. I think the problem we have now is that families are no longer practicing their religions and passing those reigious beliefs down to their children. If we as a society believed in abstaining until marriage and valuing the life of an unborn child, we wouldn't need laws against abortion. The government shouldn't be controlling morality. We as a people should be defining what is moral and what is immoral, and not accepting immoral behavior. We're doing a crappy job on that. |
| Well said Sue!
I have been thinking about these posts, and wondering how people would feel if the prayer had been a Muslim one instead of Christian. Something to think about. Shellie |
| I agree, well done sue. When I read the original I kept wondering "what prayer? whose prayer?" are agnostics now not Americans? These are issues that always bother me when this discussion comes up, I just could not put it as eliquently as you did. |
| I agree. Nice job, Sue. I had started to write something similar to a post about a week ago that had some similar content--about religion and government, but I couldn't get it to sound the way I wanted to, so I'm glad you could! |
| Those that came to America came for the freedom to "worship" in their own way. They believed in, and served the same God as the State Church. But, they wanted to worship the Lord in the simplistic ways that Jesus taught, rather than in the king's more formal, ceremonial style.
These were Godly men and women. They were "willing" to die for their Lord, willing to seek a new land where they could worship the way they felt led by God to worship. Their own persecution is why they included freedom of religion in their laws. To ensure that no one would suffer their fate. That's how their Christian beliefs ensured that even non-Christians have the right not to believe. What I mean when I say I can't understand how people can seperate the two is that God was a part of their daily life. He was in the classbooks, He was included in the laws, such as "one nation under God" and In God We Trust"................. If they came here "because of their beliefs". It only makes sense to me that they would try to live by the law of God, and make the laws of the land according to His Word. They didn't separate the two, they separated the worship. I may be mistaken, but I think all the early settlers were given a piece of land. In the early days there were actually two sets of laws. One for North and South. None are perfect, but we keep getting farther from God's law and thats whats important. God does discriminate. He loves and forgives everyone. Promises salvation to everyone that comes to Him and asks for forgiveness, but He does discrimates against sin. If we look in the Bible, we can find laws that we've changed that go against His law. These are the things that my God considers sins, the same things man once considered illegal, until we lowered our standards and made it legal. But, that doesn't change the fact that God said NO. When this country was a God fearing country, it grew to become the greatest nation in the world. Since we've allowed the government to take God OUT of everything, we're falling. We're not #1 anymore in the eyes of the world. We use to be feared. We're now being walked on, and about to be beat up if we don't get God back in our country. Bailey's Mom wrote: I think the problem we have now is that families are no longer practicing their religions and passing those reigious beliefs down to their children. If we as a society believed in abstaining until marriage and valuing the life of an unborn child, we wouldn't need laws against abortion. The government shouldn't be controlling morality. We as a people should be defining what is moral and what is immoral, and not accepting immoral behavior. We're doing a crappy job on that.
 I agree! Some may remember the good ole' days in school when we said a morning prayer and recited the Pledge of Allegance. Even Week Day Religious Education. Nothing was pumped into our heads. We weren't forced to do anything, some didn't even go if parents objected to it. Those were times when kids would come home and ask mom and dad what something meant, and would even ask, "How come we don't go to church?"
What are WE AS A PEOPLE, one nation under GOD, gonna do about this messed up society we're living in? How we gonna fix it? How are we gonna get Uncle Sam out of making moral decisions? No offense meant to anyone. jmop God bless all! |
Quote: How are we gonna get Uncle Sam out of making moral decisions?
When you put man at the top, not a god-figure, then there is no standard moral behavior. This is why our founding fathers put "One nation, UNDER God" thus making a moral code higher authority that what is currently fashionable. What the "people" want then becomes the moral guide. If the "people" are being led by evil people (look back over history, there are many) then immoral actions become the norm. Religion offers moral stability over the generations. There always has been, is, and will be immoral acts committed in the "name" of religion, but these people are evil using religion as a cover. They are not following the true religion. The current problems between the two Islamic sects is nothing new, it's been going on for centuries. Do we blame Islam or the people who have bastardized the teachings to where murder is acceptable? Finally, where does this continually shifting morality lead us? We are suppose to be more "moral" now, but we are less. We have become intolerant of anyone else's viewpoint except our own and we think it is our right to make a fuss. Thus we are imposing our viewpoints onto other people. |
| White Christians were not the first people here and are not the last. Native Americans as well as immigrant Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Hmong, etc. all live in this country and they all have their own religion that is an essential piece of their everyday life. I don't understand what makes Christianity more important than all of those than we can say Christian prayers in schools/Congress but leave out the rest? It certainly isn't because they were the first ones here, because Native American mysticism would be taught in all classes if that were the case.
I understand that people believe passionately that Christinaity is the only religion, but you have to understand that there are people from every religion that believe passionately that theirs is the right one. And there are people who believ passionately that there is no religion. It hardly seems fair or just to insert one belief arbitrarily into a system of government that governs people from all ends of the spectrum. I think a good Christian would never force their belief on someone else, but rather make it available if someone chooses to take part. |
| The Pledge of Allegiance only added the term 'under God' in 1954. Prior to that it was 'One nation, indivisible...' |
| True, I did not use a good analogy. Our founding fathers were quite religious, how about "Endowed by our Creator..." |
Quote: .......I don't understand what makes Christianity more important than all of those than we can say Christian prayers in schools/Congress but leave out the rest?.... Christianity covers a broad spectrum of denominations. Some differ in beliefs and customs, but most believe in the same God. Our founding fathers were Presbyterian/Catholic, branches of so called Christianity faith. I guess that would be the reasoning for that.? Most public prayers are started and ended with Dear God, Heavenly Father or such. No Name of God is mentioned, although in all religions I know of, God has a Name. Because of this, I feel that those participating in the prayer are praying to the god of their faith. I feel like maybe I'm in a minority, but I've thought that, and prayed that way in public since I was a child. I think we all basically want, and pray for the same things for one another, love, peace, joy, security, safety, prosperity, etc........... I see no harm in a joint prayer asking for these things, and if you end your prayer in "Jesus Name", or another, if they be God, they will hear a mighty plea from the people, rather than the bickering of people over who's right or wrong, or the sounds of silence from the lack of a prayer. Quote: ......I think a good Christian would never force their belief on someone else, but rather make it available if someone chooses to take part.
I agree with that comment in two ways: 1. No one should try to force their belief on someone else. 2. A good citizen of these great United States of America should not try to force their disbelief on believers, by insisting that the religious ancestry of our country, and the freedom to practice that religion be removed from our government. Otherwise the words "freedom of religion" could eventually be rewritten as: "free from religion". Barney 1: Thanks for the correction. 
Jmop |
mouthypf wrote: Our founding fathers were Presbyterian/Catholic, branches of so called Christianity faith.
Our Founding Fathers were definitely not Catholic LOL! The people who founded this nation were anti-Catholic. Remember, we didn't have a Catholic president until JFK and the fact that he was Catholic was a factor during his election. |
| I'll normally never get involved in a religion debate but this has reminded me of one of my favorite comedians, Greg Proops (Who's Line is it Anyway fans will know who I'm talking about) commenting on how things started in the new world. It's much more entertaining to see him perform it but I had always found it rather amusing and thought provoking. I censored the swear words but it isn't exactly G rated so read at your own risk.
Greg Proops from Comedy Central Presents: Clearly, the reason the United States is this way, is England's fault. Now, once upon a time, the English sent people all around the world, right? We got the *Pilgrims*. They celebrate Thanksgiving in England, by the way. It's called "!@#$ off, Puritan." And we're told a lot of *lies* growing up, right? About American history. (goofy voice) "Really, Greg? Which ones?" *All* of them. And one of the chiefest lies we're told is about Thanksgiving, right? Ever since you were little you've heard this: (high-pitched fuzzy/cuddly voice) "The Pilgrims left England to escape religious persecution and to sneak religious freedom into the new world." And even when you're little you're like, (raising hand) "Umm... bull!@#$? You're just saying that, right? (singing and dancing onstage) 'Cause it sounds better than the truth... La-la-la la la-la-la-la... It *sounds* (kicks heels together) better and it *tastes* (kicks heels together) better, so we'll all pretend it really happened... There were no women or minorities... Just a bunch of white guys wearing wigs..." My feeling is... the Pilgrims were *asked* to leave England. England was never funner than when the Pilgrims split, right? The people in England got a little tired of these dour, right-wing, conservative, psycho-Christians wearing all black, bumming people out, *confusing* everyone by wearing buckles (points to shoes) on (points to belt) their heads (points to head). "Is that tight enough for you, Cotton?" "Yea, verily." Finally, someone went, "Hey, I've got a crazy idea. Why don't you freaky little weirdoes get in a rickety, leaky, dinky little boat and get the *!@#$* off the island? (makes kicking motion) Sail around 'til you hit the new world. When you get there, commit genocide on the indigenous people, all right? Have a groovy time. Have a witch trial. Let us know how that works out for you. We'll be back in England having the Renaissance in case anyone needs us. So they send this group over, right? With guns and bibles and *no* farming implements. Hmm. How English is that? (fairy English accent) "Oh, surely there'll be a shop open. I say, Squanto, can you make us some baked beans on toast?" They send this group over, and then I have to hear this all the time: (gruff English accent) "Well, all Americans are fat and stupid." (goofy chuckling) Really? Well, thanks for sending over the best and brightest to start the party, huh? Maybe we could send over some freaky Texas militia hate-group, gun-toting weirdoes over to your country, huh? |
| Good one Jill! Yup, our Founding Fathers were not much fun at all. Hard to believe that in a few hundred years we've morphed from totally God fearing, tea totalling and uptight to the most decadent country on the planet. |
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