Value of A Deaf Sheepdog Puppy
Is there a place where I could find out sale prices for deaf dogs? I think if I could show that they are worth only a small amount, I could bolster my chance for a refund. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks, ddsmommy (loce@his.com) |
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| You will not be able to put a "value" to her! There are many deaf OES sold by irresponsible breeders! They aren't often sold as "deaf" - they are sold without the "buyers" being aware! Therefore, it is almost impossible to put a "price" on them. The breeders hope that once you realize it - you'll be too attached to return them and they get the $$$ - you get the heartache of deciding if you can keep a deaf puppy. This is why it is SO important to research breeders!!!!
Please know that she will most likely be euthanized by the breeder if returned! That's the fate of most deaf pups! Otherwise, if the breeder is ruthless - they may re-sell her to some unsuspecting person - not informing them of her deafness! Either way, it's not exactly fair to the dog! She is deaf - it could be a lot worse! I would urge you not to return her to the breeder. Please email me privately if you need to discuss raising a deaf dog! By the way, I think they are priceless - I'd get "stuck" with one in a minute! Kristen |
| Forgot to add...
If the breeder doesn't euthanize her or resell her - she'll be used as breeding stock - producing many more deaf pups for them to make bundles off of unsuspecting families!!!!!!! |
| I was wondering if you bought this pup on puppyfind.com. We've had discussions on this forum about a particular breeder there and if it is the same one I'm hoping maybe all of us on the list can petition puppyfind.com to not allow her to sell puppies there anymore. |
| Granted, I am one of the most cynical people in the world - but I have to say I doubt very much PUPPYFIND.COM gives a HOOT about the quality of puppies sold through their website. They are basically an advertisement agency for puppy mills! Who knows, they may even be run by puppy mills/commercial breeders/brokers!!!!
The "breeder" (using that term loosely) we discussed a few weeks back is only one of many that sell deaf puppies!!!! Deafness is common in OES - particularly when breed irresponsibly! Any Sire/Dam that has produced deaf offspring should NEVER be bred again! Not only are they bred continuously by these breeders - but often times either the Sire & Dam themselves are deaf! They can't get top dollar for the deaf ones - so instead they keep them as part of their breeding stock! When they're done with them in the "factory" - they dump them! The condition these dogs live in are deplorable!!! It is so important that we carefuly research a breeder - and understand that owning a dog (healthy or not!) is a life long committment and a big responsibility. Unfortunately, some do more research when buying a used car than we do buying a puppy!  And it's even more unfortunate that some think nothing of "dumping" a disabled/unhealthy puppy just like they would a disabled/broken down car! 
JMHO! Kristen |
| Along with everyone else's points here, I just want to add that if you love this puppy and find she is already responding to hand signals, so obviously is trainable, then I would definitely not give her back. When we have 2 legged children we do not get to choose whether the child will be perfectly healthy, or perhaps be deaf or blind, or some other affliction, but most would love their child anyway, no matter what, no differently than if the child had been born healthy. Buying a pup is a lifetime commitment, and many dogs go deaf, blind, or have difficulty moving around as they age, and when we buy a puppy we are accepting those responsibilities that come later in life as well, to make sure the dog has the best quality of life we can provide.
It is deplorable that some breeders will continue bloodlines with faults such as this, and if you suspect it may be a puppy mill or irresponsible breeder situation then by all means, do what you can to stop it, many if not all here would support you in any way we can, but aside from that, I would suggest you continue loving your puppy, help her sharpen her other senses to make sure she is safe, but please don't give her back if it's a bad situation. If you don't think you are able to I would suggest finding a home that is willing to accept her and the fact that she is deaf, instead of returning her to the breeder *if in fact it is an irreputable breeder* As for some tips, my parents have a husky cross that is going both deaf and blind a little younger than we hought he would, he's only 7, and we have learned many tips and tricks to make life easier for him. Scent is a dog's strongest sense and can be used, along with hand signals for training. A scent that they don't like is used to reinforce things like when going for a walk and waiting to cross a road, if the dog doesn't hear a car coming and pulls to cross, spray a little citrus in front of the dog and give a hand command that represents danger. You can make one up. When the dog responds to you and stops whatever action, lots of praise, with lots of touching, since they cannot hear the praise, but still verbalize it because they can still sense from you that they have garnered your approval. A signal to represent 'come' is the most important one you can teach your puppy and continually reinforce it, because if your pup ever gets loose, you want to make sure it repsonds to this one right away to keep her safe. Anyway, since I do not have a deaf dog myself I am certainly not an expert, but there are lots of people on the forum here who can help you out, and probably many training videos, books and info on the net as well. Good Luck! |
| Personally, I would take the $700 and put it aside for this little one's training, etc. However, I know everyone can handle different things. I am sure there is a mourning period of the loss of that little puppy you had in your mind -- coming when called at the sound of your voice.
Having a deaf dog requires some extra responsibility, such as making SURE it is within a fence or on-leash with you at all times when outside. You didn't ask for a deaf puppy, I'm sorry about that. And she didn't ask to be born deaf. If you don't feel like you can take on the added responsibility, PLEASE find someone who can. Where did you get her? Breeder's name? |
| Thanks for the feedback. First of all, I want to emphasize that we do want to keep this puppy. As I said in the previous post, she is sweet and smart and so well behaved even without formal training. The reason that I was asking about the price is because if the puppy is deaf, my feeling is that I should receive a close-to-full refund on the purchase price. If a reputable breeder discovered the puppy was deaf, I assume that he or she would keep the puppy or try to place her in an appropriate home. But in this situation, I am assuming that there'd be no charge for the puppy beyond reimbursement for vet bills, shots, food and board up through the time of placement. If I have to pay more than "fair market value" for the puppy, I feel as if I am being taken advantage of. I am more than willing to keep the puppy and invest in special training for her (I have started researching trainers for that purpose). Just because she came to me by accident, I do not think I should have to pay more than if the deafness had been discovered before she was sold - and I could have gotten her for free or minimum cost as a rescue.
As for questions about where the puppy was purchased, I entrusted that to my mother. We had an OES growing up that we'd purchased from a breeder and my parents bred her twice (all in accordance w/AKC guidelines, etc...) But the breeder who sold my parents their sheepdog was no longer in business and my mother could not locate any breeders in the area who were having litters in the near future (she was more impatient for me to get the dog than I was but that is another issue...) So she heard about a place in NJ that purportedly purchases puppies from breeders, not puppy mills. She went there and met the puppy, saw the papers and bought her. Based on my dealings, I have to say that the pet store owner seems reputable enough (or at least is sufficiently familiar with his obligations under the law with respect to refunds and exchanges). I also do not believe that he intentionally sold a deaf puppy. But he is obviously dealing with an operation that is breeding dogs with a deaf gene and I would like to alert someone to that fact as well (not sure who I would inform) |
| I had mentioned on here on a previous post that if you paid by credit card you are able to dispute the charge. Even if it's been a couple of months, you have a valid complaint. If that is the case, I would contact your card company asap. |
| ddsmommy,
You should get a full refund - but your contract may indicate that in order to get a full refund - you would have to return the dog. Review your contract and see what stipulations it may have. I would discuss with them that you want a full refund but don't want to return the puppy and see if they will allow that! Please be sure to go to www.deafdogs.org for valuable information on raising a deaf dog! You don't necessarily need "specialized training" - most training programs (you absolutely need to follow positive reinforcement training - no punishment training!) - will incorporate "hand signals" in their training methods. I enrolled Sydney in positive reinforcement training programs with hearing dogs. I think I know the place in NJ that you are referring to - they are a "puppy broker". I sympathize with you - my mother bought me a puppy from what we later discovered was a puppy mill (she's not the deaf one though). Your Mom's heart was in the right place. Please email me privately if you need anything! Best of Luck Kristen |
| Sorry dds, but NO reputable breeder would sell to a pet store. The puppy likely came to the pet store shipped by the Hunte Corp.
There are simple tests for deafness that should be done when chosing a pup that were unfortunately overlooked. ie: dropping a set of keys to see if the pup responds ... This is a really unfortuntate situation, and believe me, I don't envy the situtaion you are in. In can happen any time one buys from someone other than a reputable breeder.  And at one point in our lives, I'm guessing most of us have. 
The 'breeder' doesn't care if they are producing deaf puppies. They only care about the cashola the pup brings in. If it's returned - it only costs them about $45. to have it PTS -- OR -- Often times Mills, BYBs will use the deaf dogs as breeding stock. Grrr.
Do what you can to get as much of your money back as possible, then concentrate your efforts on your little one. You sound like a really good doggy mommy.  She is with you for a reason. |
| DDS,
If you already have an emotional attachment to the puppy, I don't think that "being stuck" with the puppy would be such a bad thing. I don't blame you for not wanting to pay too much, BUT if you send that puppy back, the breeder may think they have invested too much and want to euthanize?? Are you concerned because you want to breed? Or are you not sure about having a deaf dog? I've heard that once they are trained anyone who doesn't know the dog will not even notice that it's deaf. The OES needs tons of training whether deaf or not. You might want to reconsider your options...JMHO, Maria & Moe |
| DDS, There are many known puppy brokers in southern NJ. Pet stores puy from puppy mills I saw the papers. If I was you I would call the better business bureau in my town and see if anything can be done. If you pay $1200.00 0r $700.00 for an OES would the price affect how you would feel about the puppy? If you plan on keeping the puppy start now and gather all information you can there are other OES owners with deaf sheepie dogs and lead a wonderful loving life with them. Ask for help forget the money and take care of this puppy who did not ask to be deaf if you can't treat her like any other dog then perhaps a new home would be the best for this puppy. I feel for this puppy that needs all the love and care that all puppys need in order to grow up and return love. I understand your situation and there are some slime balls out there making money at the expense of innocent puppys. I wish you the best and bid you peace. |
| I want to buy a Japanese Chin puppy, but I don't have a lot of money with which to buy one because I found two respectable home breeders but they charge at least $1,000 per puppy! So I discovered puppyfind.com where that are many pups from all over that run from $500-1000 plus shipping which is around $200.
I read many other messages on these forums and I'm terrified of getting a genetically disadvantaged puppy. It's just so tempting to buy that $600 puppy from Oaklahoma but it's hard to know if it's a puppy mill or irresponsible breeder that doesn't test the sire and dam. Also, shelters frequently do not carry this breed. I would very much appreciate your help or imput regarding the above: email me ledesir06@yahoo.com Thank you all |
| I did some brief research and found this link to the Japanese Chin Club of America. On this site is their breeder referral link. http://www.japanesechinonline.org/breed/referral/
Click on the region where you are located and send an e-mail to the address that pops up. They will refer you to a reputable breeder in your region. Also, here is a link to a rescue organization if you are interested in adopting an older dog. http://www.japanesechinrescue.org/ Good luck with your search!  |
Willowsprite wrote: When we have 2 legged children we do not get to choose whether the child will be perfectly healthy, or perhaps be deaf or blind, or some other affliction, but most would love their child anyway, no matter what, no differently than if the child had been born healthy. Buying a pup is a lifetime commitment, and many dogs go deaf, blind, or have difficulty moving around as they age, and when we buy a puppy we are accepting those responsibilities that come later in life as well, to make sure the dog has the best quality of life we can provide.
I could not agree with you more!!! |
| I came across your discussion because a friend of mine, who is a small breeder of OES just did a stud service for a lady and most of the litter is deaf. I am a breeder of another breed and I read with interest your discussion. This stud dog has fathered a previous litter with this female and the pups were fine...he has fathered other litters and there were no deaf puppies....so, who is to blame? Unfortunately, even in my breed, they seem to always blame the stud dog. I wish there were a gene test to do prescreening for this situation or any. Unfortunately there is not. So, not everyone is trying to breed irresponsibly. As the story goes, the female owner sold the deaf puppies for a small sum and is having the other dogs tested. People were glad to take them on and work with them. The thing that complicates the issue is that she now wants the stud owner to refund the stud fee....sort of becomes complicated doesn't it? He has never produced deaf pups and she certainly would not want to do a repeat breeding...such is the world of dog breeding...!!!! Gabrielsark@aol.com |
| It takes 2 to produce deaf puppies. So no one is "at fault". It's a combination of the genes that causes the problem. And genes can sometimes be a crap shoot no matter how careful you are in breeding. |
| I just wanted to say that I've raised a deaf puppy. We adopted him from the shelter, not knowing that he was deaf, and he's one of the best dogs we've ever had. Granted, he's not an OES, but an Australian Cattle Dog. He's never had formal training, but responds to the hand signals that our family made up, that way everyone knew them. He also hasn't cost us any more than his non-deaf counterparts, and, actually, is healthier than they are for the most part. So I really don't see any problems in your future. |
| There is an article on the Orthopedic Foundation For Animals website about deafness.. Genetics and Inheritance of Canine Deafness http://offa.org/deaf_genetics.html I'm glad all the affected puppies found homes! The breeder might also share the following link with the new owners so the puppies can get a good start on training and desensitization- http://deafdogs.org/training |
My deaf dogs are priceless  |
Guest wrote: I came across your discussion because a friend of mine, who is a small breeder of OES just did a stud service for a lady and most of the litter is deaf. I am a breeder of another breed and I read with interest your discussion. This stud dog has fathered a previous litter with this female and the pups were fine...he has fathered other litters and there were no deaf puppies....so, who is to blame? Unfortunately, even in my breed, they seem to always blame the stud dog. I wish there were a gene test to do prescreening for this situation or any. Unfortunately there is not. So, not everyone is trying to breed irresponsibly. As the story goes, the female owner sold the deaf puppies for a small sum and is having the other dogs tested. People were glad to take them on and work with them. The thing that complicates the issue is that she now wants the stud owner to refund the stud fee....sort of becomes complicated doesn't it? He has never produced deaf pups and she certainly would not want to do a repeat breeding...such is the world of dog breeding...!!!! Gabrielsark@aol.com I sent you an email this morning... |
| I was corresponding this morning about a deaf 8 week old puppy on the east side of the state... it was the reason I had written. She appeared on Craigslist late Friday afternoon. I know of a litter born over there on February 28th and the age stated fits. I sent questions the owner could ask potential adopters which includes a note that they may be legally required to contact the breeder/rescue before rehoming the dog, the importance of a fenced yard, and deaf dog training information. I later wrote again about adopting her. I received a reply at 11pm last night that I read this morning. The owner bought this deaf OES puppy for $50 because she "...couldn't see her being taken to the pound." according to the ad. But it wasn't working out. The pup was too bitey with the older resident puppy and there's some jealousy. I was told they didn't want the puppy to backslide in behavior. I was also told there were other people interested in adopting her and that she would have to be spayed. This afternoon I was told I could adopt her ($50) if I could be over today, otherwise there was another family that could. I couldn't so I mentioned a couple more things to share with her new family and asked that they pass long the OES.org website address. Hoping they'll come here if they need help. Quote: As the story goes, the female owner sold the deaf puppies for a small sum and is having the other dogs tested. People were glad to take them on and work with them. I personally don't care if a breeder shows their OESs or competes with them... what I do care about is breeder responsibility and dog temperament and health. It's great that the breeder is having the other dogs tested... I assume that means BAER testing. But I'm hoping THIS deaf puppy isn't from a couple of squabbling breeders that are so focused on pointing fingers at each other about who's to blame that they've lost focus on the puppies they’ve already produced. Even one deaf puppy isn't something you dump for $50 so you can be rid of the disappointment or no-profit problem. If you're doing that, you're no better than the irresponsible BYBs you're trying to distance yourselves from. Responsibility continues after the puppy has been sold or rehomed because you had a hand in creating it. I have no idea whether this baby was one of the deaf puppies mentioned but don't forget about them and how they are adjusting to their new homes. As Marilyn said, deaf puppies will happen in this breed despite careful planning and research. Not that anyone should ever rejoice when it does but they deserve the same care and concern as the puppies sold for $800, $1,000 or $1,500. My only hope is that this baby ends up in the right home this time.  End of rant.  Some day I'll finally get that deaf puppy, Kathy.  |
6Girls wrote: I Quote: As the story goes, the female owner sold the deaf puppies for a small sum and is having the other dogs tested. People were glad to take them on and work with them. I personally don't care if a breeder shows their OESs or competes with them... what I do care about is breeder responsibility and dog temperament and health. It's great that the breeder is having the other dogs tested... I assume that means BAER testing. But I'm hoping THIS deaf puppy isn't from a couple of squabbling breeders that are so focused on pointing fingers at each other about who's to blame that they've lost focus on the puppies they’ve already produced. Even one deaf puppy isn't something you dump for $50 so you can be rid of the disappointment or no-profit problem. If you're doing that, you're no better than the irresponsible BYBs you're trying to distance yourselves from OK, I'm confused. What did the original poster's question have to do with showing or competing? Kristine |
Quote: So, not everyone is trying to breed irresponsibly. I wanted to be clear that I was NOT coming from a position that "all breeders who don't show or compete are irresponsible". I wanted that off the table before my rant ( ) about a deaf 2 month old puppy being rehomed on Craigslist. I hoped info shared privately would get back to the unknown breeder that the puppy was not working out. I also shared info with the owner that they may be required to contact the breeder before rehoming the puppy. And rescue was not going to be accepted. I'm not sure why I bother sometimes... |
6Girls wrote: Quote: So, not everyone is trying to breed irresponsibly. I wanted to be clear that I was NOT coming from a position that "all breeders who don't show or compete are irresponsible". I wanted that off the table before my rant ( ) about a deaf 2 month old puppy being rehomed on Craigslist. I hoped info shared privately would get back to the unknown breeder that the puppy was not working out. I also shared info with the owner that they may be required to contact the breeder before rehoming the puppy. And rescue was not going to be accepted. I'm not sure why I bother sometimes... That's OK. I'm getting to that point myself. I'm still not sure I know what you're getting at.  I mean I do, but I don't. I felt like I was reading half a conversation wondering "OK, so where did that come from???"  Kristine |
| HEY!!!!! I am supposed to be the only one that can come out of nowhere and confuse things!! |
Donner's Mom wrote: HEY!!!!! I am supposed to be the only one that can come out of nowhere and confuse things!! Really?? Who gave you a monopoly??!!  I swear there's a full moon. Or at least that's my story and I'm stickin' to it Kristine |
There is always a full moon here!  Eat a raw egg(shell and all) with your dinner! That is our new stress approach we are trying here! |
Mad Dog wrote: Donner's Mom wrote: HEY!!!!! I am supposed to be the only one that can come out of nowhere and confuse things!! Really?? Who gave you a monopoly??!! I swear there's a full moon. Or at least that's my story and I'm stickin' to it Kristine Sorry Kristine. you need another excuse. Full moon isn't until May 17th  |
| Oh my... you probably are only getting half of it. I think Kathy has the other half of my conversation somewhere.  Hopefullythe PM cleared things up... though it may have confused you all the more. Pass me the eggs, Kathy. |
6Girls wrote: Oh my... you probably are only getting half of it. I think Kathy has the other half of my conversation somewhere. Hopefullythe PM cleared things up... though it may have confused you all the more. Pass me the eggs, Kathy. OK. NOW I understand. Kathy gets 1/2 the conversation, I get the other half, and we respectively conclude we're both losing our minds. Hear that Kathy: IT'S NOT OUR FAULT! We don't have to sign up for that drug trial for early Ahlzheimer's after all  Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: 6Girls wrote: Oh my... you probably are only getting half of it. I think Kathy has the other half of my conversation somewhere. Hopefullythe PM cleared things up... though it may have confused you all the more. Pass me the eggs, Kathy. OK. NOW I understand. Kathy gets 1/2 the conversation, I get the other half, and we respectively conclude we're both losing our minds. Hear that Kathy: IT'S NOT OUR FAULT! We don't have to sign up for that drug trial for early Ahlzheimer's after all Kristine Not to put a TOTAL damper on things.....  Alzheimers diagnosis is made from a postmortem brain autopsy....  |
Mad Dog wrote: 6Girls wrote: Oh my... you probably are only getting half of it. I think Kathy has the other half of my conversation somewhere. Hopefullythe PM cleared things up... though it may have confused you all the more. Pass me the eggs, Kathy. OK. NOW I understand. Kathy gets 1/2 the conversation, I get the other half, and we respectively conclude we're both losing our minds. Hear that Kathy: IT'S NOT OUR FAULT! We don't have to sign up for that drug trial for early Ahlzheimer's after all Kristine Well, why the heck do you think I stay so confused! You all had better agree to visit me when I am at the funny farm!!! |
| I posted the original email about ten years ago. I cannot believe that I even considered returning my deaf girl for 20 seconds. She has turned out to be the best dog ever. I would have paid 10 times as much to have such a sweet, loving, loyal dog. She sleeps by my bedside every night and in the bed when I am sick, she has welcomed another dog in the house and eagerly greets every person in our neighborhood. I cannot imagine a more wonderful girl. |
Guest wrote: I posted the original email about ten years ago. I cannot believe that I even considered returning my deaf girl for 20 seconds. She has turned out to be the best dog ever. I would have paid 10 times as much to have such a sweet, loving, loyal dog. She sleeps by my bedside every night and in the bed when I am sick, she has welcomed another dog in the house and eagerly greets every person in our neighborhood. I cannot imagine a more wonderful girl.  |
| what a wonderful update! So nice to hear that things worked out so very well for you both! |
 So happy for you that this worked out! She is lucky to have you - and vice versa, I'm sure! |
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