I feel like giving up
Sherman is pretty good--but not quite perfect. Sophie, on the other hand, seems to urinate as a maniuplation. She will urinate and then when we catch her in the act and say NO! she runs to the door, expecting to be taken out. It's like peeing on the carpet IS her signal. It's a bad one and I haven't been able to replace it with a better one. Example: last evening, the puppies and our older dog were fed at about 5 pm. I was waiting for them to finish their dinner before I took them out for their walk. Sophie stopped eating, walked over to the carpeted area of our family room and peed. Now, they'd had a long walk at 3 pm, and had been taken out twice between then and 5. No barking, no sniffing, circling, nothing at all to indicate she might need to go. Also, no urinary tract infections. Unfortunately this is common behavior. She does this very, very frequently. We've had a string of a few good days and then, it's back to the same old doing whatever she wants, whenever she wants. I had pulled back the carpet last night, deciding that my daily cleaning with a steam cleaner must not be sufficient. there were many, many stains and the pad reeked. I saturated the carpet and the pad with Nature's Miracle, as the bottle indicated. I left it overnight to speed the drying process. This morning, she was out at 6:30 (short walk), fed, out at 7:30 for an hour long walk and came in to settle down. I went downstairs to start a load of laundry and to sort socks. I was downstairs less than 15 minutes. When I came upstairs the pad had been shredded. And this isn't the only thing that's been destroyed. Now, they've taken to chewing woodwork--100year old irreplaceable woodwork, with toys on the floor around them. They've finished teething--no swollen gums, their teeth are in. Now, I hate that carpet and really want to replace it--but it makes no sense to do so if the puppies are going to continue to pee at will. They walks well on a leash; they knows basic commands, they're affectionate and smart. They enjoy playing with each other, with ARchie, with us. They are good with other dogs, and all people, especially children. Sophie does guard her food a bit but that is improving. I was successful at house training my other dogs by the time they were 4 months old, almost 100 percent; 100 percent came very, very quickly after that. Our other dogs also rarely told us they needed to go out--they adapted to 4 walks per day, plus outside time as weather and schedule permitted. I understand that all dogs are individuals and I realize that some dogs are easier to train than others. I just am at my wit's end. I am spending so much time cleaning up messes that I don't enjoy any of the rest of my life. It isn't fair to the puppies. My husband refuses to try crate training, although I've lobbied for it for the past 2 months, at least. You guys are really good and experienced. What am I missing? What could I do differently? I've read through the training thread and nothing is leaping out at me. Help! |
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| I am no expert and hopefully the other more experienced will chime in but maybe she might have a bladder infection and just can't help it.
Do you limit their water consumption after a certain period at night.. I know when I brought Dudley home.. it was no water after 8:00 pm. and out for last pee at around 11 or 12. When I fostered the little sheepie/springer this past spring... I applied the same technique and there were very few accidents in the house. I have also noticed that I could walk both my dogs 10 kms and it wouldn't matter.. they would still be raring to go.. but an hour at the dog park, running and wresting with other dogs.. and they are out like lights when we get home.. to tired to get into mischief Good luck and don't give up.. one day the light bulb will click on and they will get it.......... carpet is overrated anyways... |
| There's a good chance you aren't doing anything wrong, which, in this case, is probably what you don't want to hear! Clyde was horrible to potty train and we were having problems right up to 6 months as well. One day, everything just clicked and he just figured it all out. I didn't change anything, I just kept doing the same thing, which I was told was the right thing, but it sure felt wrong at the time!
I guess the first question that I would ask is, what is their normal signal to go outside? Do they have one? It could be that it's so subtle, you're missing it. Clyde's signal was to stand by the door for about 20 seconds-- which is no good if I'm upstairs or not in plain view of the door. We wound up training him to ring a bell to go outside and it was a lifesaver. At first he rang it all the time just for outside time but after a short time, that tapered off. Or, do you just take them out at scheduled times? Also, you mention a lot of walks. Do they go potty primarily on the walks? Maybe they have some confusion about asking to go potty since they assume potty time is when they're walking? As far as chewing, I think even the best of young dogs have weak moments where there are certain things that they love to chew and can't help themselves. Anything that looks like a napkin or toilet paper in our house is irresesitable! Yours are at that age where they do really annoying things for no reason! Maybe you can bitter apple the woodwork or confine them to an area that they can't do as much damage in? Why is your husband against crate training? I have to admit, I'm not a fan of the crate either but it also doesn't have to be forever if things go well. It can be a great tool to train and then once things are going well, you can give a little more freedom each time until the dogs are 100% trustworthy. It also keeps them from chewing and staying out of trouble when you can't watch them. Things will get better, I promise! Jill |
| I am a big believer in crate training. Dixie was crated when she was a pup, and has only had two accidents total in the house. Every time she drank, we took her immediately outside and gave the command "go potty". Every time she ate, same thing. When she was not able to go, we would stand outside and wait...sometimes for a LONG time! Now she can sleep through the night, sometimes as long a 8 hours.
As for the chewing, I can't help you there, Dixie was never a chewer. I wish you luck! Tell you husband TRYING a crate can't hurt, it can only help. Dogs are cave dwelling animals, and can get great comfort from a place to call their own. |
| I think some dogs just take longer for it to click. My parents sheepdog was pretty much good to go by age 4 months, but Barney, my dog, was definitely not reliable until closer to 10 months (and I still worry sometimes!). I wonder, too, if because they are both learning together, if they are not caring as much as they would if they were only puppies--like egging each other on to not learn.
Good luck, sounds like you're doing it right...just don't give up! |
| If he won't go for a crate, how about a penned off area in your kitchen...no access to the carpets or the wood work. She likes to pee on the carpet, and at this point I don't think you can get the smell truly out.
We had to rip our carpet out, and I have no had any accidents in the house for a long time. For some reason Zoe (who is 6mths but a small breed)...will hold it as long as she can, I might get a small bark if she has to go....but I just make sure they get outside often. Crates are awesome, they also help in training them individually too. Just give it a try before you make any decisions, keep them confined in some area that is NOT for punishment, and then gradually increase their space. Then you can tether them to you by a leash....do not let them have any freedom...or they will sneak off and pee. And get rid of the carpet, it's definitely going to hinder their sucess. I find 6 mths to 1 year a really really challenging time...and most dogs in shelters or rescue are this age because they change and become bad...but it passes. Consistency, and reward good behaviour...going back to basics...escort them to pee, treats, pee on command by using your key phrase....let walks be for fun....but Potty time for training. Litter mates take longer to train than a single dog would. Good luck, I'm sure it will click with them too. |
| Your encouragement does help, really.
They make it through the night pretty well, pretty reliably. Sherman is recovering from a bout of colitis ( most likely brought on by some forbidden delight--probably something yummy one of neighborhood college students left on the yard and didn't get noticed when we were out for our walk. We pick up water at about 8 pm, and don't feed after 6 or 6:30, regardless, which has made their night times pretty decently. Sherman didn't make it when he first got colitis, but that was obviously not his fault. As soon as his meds began, he went back to his reliable self. We've always taken the puppies out immediately after eating, starting when they came home to us at about 8 weeks. Also immediately after waking, after (or in the middle of) playing, etc. THe usual puppy strategy that worked before. Those potty breaks were just outside in our yard, unless it was a time we had scheduled for a longer walk. Lots of praise for successful pee/poop. In fact, they do know---at least part of the time--enough to make sure they pee/poo before coming in. Both have been called to come in and started, only to turn away and run off to a favorite potty spot and then happily trot into the house. Sophie used to signal me very subtly--too subtley for me to pick up, at first. She'd just come to me and stare at me. I'd pet her, say good girl, and she'd go pee--next to me. So, I did smarten up and as soon as she came over, I'd take her out for a pee/poo. Mostly she went then---but she went other times, as well, with no signal. Last night, there was none. They were being fed early, actually, so I'd have time to take them on their usual long after dinner walk and be back in time to pick up my daughter from work. So, Sophie shouldn't have had to go, really. She'd had a long 3 pm walk and a couple of in between potty in the yard times. Food a little after 5 pm--pee on the carpet at about 5:15. While I watched. No warning. No sniff, circle, no looking at the door or me, even. Just walk over, pee, and then scoot for the door. When I come home at night, all the dogs enthusiastically greet me, and Sophie and Sherman follow me upstairs. Archie is glad for t he break from the puppies and stays downstairs to help smell dinner cooking. The puppies climb all over me, while I change out of my work clothes and insist on going outside immediately--and they pee and/or poo, even though they were out at 3 pm for about 45 minutes or so, and probably at least once between 4 and 6 pm. It only took me one time to realize that they really, really did have to go and that I was stupid not to have listened the first time. So, when it's important to them, they do signal in a very insistant way. But that's them together. Sherman on his own, will come up and bark at us (not my choice of signal, but hey--I'm not that choosey) At first, Sophie just seemed to have a tiny bladder capacity. She needed to go much more often than Sherman (who now ressembles Niagra Falls). No bladder infection--one Sunday (of course, no regular vet hours) she seemed to need to go every 5 minutes. On her walk, she'd stop every 20 yards or so. She didn't act ill, and no fever so I didn't call the vet on Sunday evening--by Monday am, she was fine. And her bladder check was clear. But that was when she was 3 months old. Now, she's obviously gotten a much larger bladder capacity (I know--I've mopped up the puddles). And she knows to pee outside--she'll make a special last minute trip to her potty spot before coming in. She just seems to have no inhibitions about peeing in the house whenever she wants. And thinks the family room is a good spot to pee. My daughter and I both think that she is using a pee on the carpet as a signal to go out--whether to play or to pee. But definitely as a manipulation. She dashes for the door when we say No, all excited to go out. We've tried not taking her out then, so as not to reward bad behavior, but that usually ends in more pee. Walks are for walk, for fun, and of course, for elimination (especially the first thing in the morning, first thing at night ones). Lots of times to go outside between, in the yard, for pee/poo. Each has his/her own favorite spot. Lots of play time with the humans in the family, with ARchie, with other dogs, other people. Except for this (and the slight, and improving food agression) she's a delight. Sherman is pretty delightful, except for his predisposition to seek out, consume and get colitis from any bit of garbage human eyes miss. He's great about 'drop it' and letting me open his mouth and pull whatever disgusting thing he's gotten into out--but sometimes there's something I miss, no matter how good I am. We keep bathroom doors closed: he loves toilet paper--and toilet water--and whatever happens to be in the garbage can. Kitchen garbage is kept behind closed doors, and always was because of first kids, and then dogs. Why is my husband so against crate training? I haven't a clue. We've never used one before (part of his reason, I'm sure) and never needed to. Our other dogs were reliable enough when we were around, and until they were always, always, always reliable, were confined when we were gone. It was a very rare accident after 4 months, and then only under very easily understood circumstances. But, since the puppies, especially Sophie, are so much more difficult (and I agree that it's harder because there are 2 of them--harder than I expected), I'd do a crate in a minute. But I've learned that unless everybody's on board, nothing works. We've already ripped out the carpet in the living room, dining room and entry (all one kind). Believe me, it was no loss at all, but we still to keep the living room off limits because they'll immediately go pee in there, on the hard wood floors, despite careful and repeated cleaning of the floor. The family room carpet is also no loss. I hate it with a passion. But--the floor under is cement. I'm reluctant to get new carpet until the puppies are trained, but the cement isn't very liveable, either. Being the family room--and opening completely (as in a 15 ft door way) into the kitchen, it is where we spend most of our time, and not easily blocked off in a way that lets the puppies spend time with humans but off carpet. |
| How small is the restricted area and what type of space?
If you aren't crating, then the area needs to be pretty small to help with potty training. I start all my dogs with crates, and they get "more house" as they earn the privilege. If they start potting, back to the crate they go, and we start over. I have a couple (the min pins) who always are crated when we are gone or at night, or they would pee and/or poop in the house. I would never leave Chewie (named for Chewbacca, not eating furniture!) in a regular room in the house yet. There is just too much temptation. He has a roomy, extra-large crate, or he is babygated on the porch with a cement floor. It is puppy-proofed and safe. It's a pain, but I always stay out with the dog until they go potty. Then I verbally praise and give lots of physical praise. (I'm not a food rewarder) I teach them "potty" too - it's a very handy command. Sometimes they are outside for fun and exercise, sometime it's just a bathroom break. Chewie is 5 months and is just starting to signal at the door (scratches with a paw) this week  . Otherwise he was taken out on a schedule, after meals and after waking up. I haven't had littermates, but have had puppies at the same time. I have heard from others that littermates are slower to learn people things, they are more focused on the canine pack. |
Quote: It's a pain, but I always stay out with the dog until they go potty. Then I verbally praise and give lots of physical praise. (I'm not a food rewarder)
I teach them "potty" too - it's a very handy command. Sometimes they are outside for fun and exercise, sometime it's just a bathroom break. Me too. We're out until they potty. LOTS of praise (not food) when they go. Happy voice, strokes, scratches. Trying to teach 'potty' although it's never been a strategy I've needed before. At night they have access to the front entry way, stairway and upstairs hall. My dogs don't sleep in the room with me, although they are free to sleep with kids if the kids want them. No pee at night now for several weeks. If I had an enclosed porch, that's where I'd place them, but I don't. When we got our first dog, we'd put him in the basement when we were gone. However, since then, the basement has been changed in purpose, although we are going to have to re-convert it back to 'dog space' again. It just isn't where we spend much time, so we haven't really wanted to keep the puppies there --except now we are going to have to re-configure the laundry room, it seems. |
| I sympathize... I went through the same thing with Dancer.
I ended up having to tether her to me, kept her on leash right with me at all times for a couple weeks. And I mean at ALL times. This would be more difficult, if not impossible to do with two puppies though. Dancer did get better, but honestly, she is still not 100% reliable. If I don't get her out on time, she will pee on the kitchen floor. With two puppies I think crate training would be the best way to go. |
| You are not alone. London is 5 1/2 mths and is giving me fits with potty training. Some days - no accidents, other mornings and I wake up and normally step in a big puddle.
Hope it clicks in her brain pretty soon. |
O...FINALLY SOMETHING I CAN TALK ABOUT AND HAVE A SUGESTION. ok olive did NOT like potty training. i have had to have my carpets cleaned professionally. at 8 months she still did not understand. i was at a loss. i rerad in the dog wisper book to go back to basics. the dog has learned to like a certin surface ie grass, pine straw...or in our case carpet. olive as well will pee in front of you if excited, and then she would do it out of stubourness. so i first went to burlington coat factory because they have metal baby gates that are pressure mounter or able to screw into the wall for around 30 dollars vs. the pet stors that wanted 100 for the same thing. I put the gates up in the kitchen which connects to my living area. it copntained her but gave her plenty of space, and she was still right there with me so it seemed to work. then when i caught her making a mess in there i would say no! and take her out. If she went outside on a walk like she was supposed to she earned free time in the actual living room with me but as soon as i saw her waundering off i would put her right back in the kitchen. now she is more used to going on the kitchen floor, so if she must go she will walk in the kitchen to do it...which is easy clean up, and she has now learned to go out on her own and to go in the house is no good. i also hung a bell at the door and i ring it EVERY time we go out. now she will go up to the bell and ring it with her nose letting me know she has to go out. it was a process, but it turns out OES are really smart and smart=stuborn. I understand your frustration, but they will get it. in the mean time keep them off you carpet.  |
| I feel for you. My suggestion would be to encourage your husband to look at the crate training section of this forum or to get a book and just read up on it. I have LOVED it with Bingley, and it is something we ONLY do when we're not home, at night, and when we need to get ready for work. He doesn't mind it at all, walks right in and chews on his favorite toy.
I like the suggestion of literally keeping them by your side CONSTANTLY - of course it is harder with two of them!  If they aren't at your side I would have them be in their crate, or small section of the room (probably individually). Crate training works because the dog doesn't want to 'mess' in his den area. Sooo if the area is big enough for both of them there is probably room for them to have 'their own' area as well as a potty place.
It sounds like you're doing good stuff and it is probably just more difficult because there are two of them and their personalities are just not in sync with the whole potty thing!  GOOD LUCK with everything and try and see if your husband would read up on the crate training. . .   |
| Chauncey was also difficult to potty train or train in general. I've finally found someone as stubborn as I am . We have crated him from day one basically to make sure he didn't eat the sofa when we went away. He is out 99% of time, unless we go away. Although he never pooped in the crate, I use to catch him sneeking in to pee there, if I wasn't watching. He is now 100% potty trained. The meathod that has always, even with Chaunce, worked best for me is to take him out after food and water and when he potty's we come right back inside, we only went outside to potty, never to play until he was housebroken. Walks were where we excercised & played. This way a trip outside was only associated with potty. We played inside during the training time and got the needed extra exercise on walks. |
| Question: When you are not home then who is watching and constantly supervising the dogs? If they cannot be watched then they absolutely need to be contained in an area or crated. Otherwise it is a free-for-all and the whole house will be a bathroom.
It is definitely back to basics with these pooches. I would be making it worth their while to potty outside by rewarding them in a very special way. Get something that they absolutely love to eat...cheese, hot dogs, chicken, steak....whatever. You need only to give them a tiny piece the size of you fingernail. What you need to do is make it a REALLY big deal to potty outside. If they get praise for sitting, and playing nice, and just being cute, then it may not be a big deal. Try something different for potty...something very meaningful to them. At this point I would be trying anything possible, as the older they get the more of a habit they are getting into. Now if seems as if Sophie is now in the habit of going in a particular room. You need to block off her access to that room. Totally. She needs to forget about that "bathroom" and find another one...outside in the yard...and you need to show her that if she holds her pee and goes outside she gets something very special...a wonderful treat. She almost has it, as she will pee and then run outside. If she could not get there, then you would be able to read her "cue" if she tries to get into that room, or even looks towards the room. That would mean "I want to go potty". Do not correct a dog for going in the wrong place...for some dogs even a loud "no" may scare him and make him hide to pee in the house. If that happens the dog will just not do it in front of you, but will continue to do it when you are not around. You need to teach the dog where to go potty and then reward the dog for it...reward them well. http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=7411 Bosley drove me nuts with housetraining, as he is the first dog that I ever had so much trouble teaching potty. He was not reliable until he was at least 6 months old, and up until he was 4 months old I was pulling my hair out...Then it clicked and we started getting the real ones and some fake-out pees....and we were so thrilled we rewarded them all  ....So I can certainly sympathize.
Bless those breeders who start the puppies young, when they are only a few weeks old....before they leave their house. Makes a world of difference.... |
| I definitely recommend crate training. My last puppy (Tibetan Terrier Pandy) with my Mom wasn't crate trained and she peed on carpeting until she passed at age 13. My Mom thinks the crate is an awful invention and will give us her "opinion" every chance she gets. I must remind my Mom how Pandy peed on the floor all the time and how Fozzie doesn't give us any trouble when he's in his crate. He goes in with a treat, has his little rug, a Nylabone, sqooshy toy and water bowl (hooked up to the side).
We have found that crate training has been AMAZING with Fozzie. He has an occassional accident in the house but it's on the way to the outside door. I feel much more comfortable knowing that he, Annie, and our possessions are safe from harm's way when we can't be watching him all the time. He will graduate to have the run of the house someday like Annie, but that will be a while yet. |
| I love the crate.. I raised my Berner with a crate... it is the best tool in puppy training in my opinion....plus it's their bedroom.. safe haven spot. |
| Barney HATED the crate...we tried it for a good 3 months...so we ended up just keeping him separated in the kitchen, where he really didn't have very many accidents. We had him since he was six months old and I think it took a good year for us to really trust him, but he still 'lives' in the kitchen when we aren't home. |
| I'm ready to trust Chauncey and put the crate away. I am home with him full time and trust him more than my husband. I have gone away for short periods of time and gradually increased to an hour or so and he has been great. We have tried using gates and leaving him confined to the kitchen but he seemed fearful when we did this. After the third time he kinda cowarded, the gates went to the attic. He just turned one last Sat.
My question I guess is...how do you know when to trust them when your going to be gone longer than an hour or so? I didn't mind crating him when he was younger, but I do now. In fact most times, unless it's too hot, he goes with me. My husband was home the past 2 days when I had to leave for Dr. appt. and tests and saw how Chaunce behaves. If he sees me pick up my keys he gets so excited, bum wiggles and runs to the door, he loves to go for a ride. But it's not always possible. |
| I think you know that better than anyone else...trust is earned...testing him every time you go out...I'd keep working on the time amount and keep increasing it.
As for the gates in the kitchen, I always started the puppies this way...but remained home with them. I'd cook supper while they were behind the gates...went about my day leaving them confined. When I was wanting to play with them I'd go inside their area to play. They could see me often, and hear everything...it was not isolation. Maybe your's felt too alone. |
 You are not alone  |
| I was totally against crating, but with our 2nd dog, I crated him, as Ollie chewed everything and messed everywhere - I really wish we had crated Ollie big time, would of saved a lot of mess and trouble. Jack now walks into his crate and sleeps, I even leave the door open for him - he loves it - good luck |
| DON'T GIVE UP SOME PUPS JUST DO TAKE LONGER THAN OTHERS. I HAVE A SHELTIE(MAX) THATS 3 AND MY OES(LUCY) THAT JUST TURNED 2. I USED THE SAME METHOD WITH BOTH. CRATE TRAINING FOR ONE AND DONT FEEL THATS IT'S CRUEL IT'S VERY HELPFUL FOR THEM NOT TO GET INTO ANYTHING BAD AND FOR YOU TO HAVE A SENSE OF EASE WHEN THE CRATE IS USED. I GAVE THEM NO WATER A COUPLE HOURS BEFORE BEDTIME BUT STILL TOOK THEM OUT RIGHT BEFORE BED. HAVE A TRIGGER WORD SUCH AS POTTY OR GO POO-POO AND GIVE THEM LOTS OF PRAISE AND EXCITEMENT WHEN THEY DO. I SOMETIMES WOULD GATE OFF THE KITCHEN WHEN AT HOME AND MAX CHEWED AROUND THE WOODWORK SO I USED A NASTY TASTING SPRAY(NOT BITTER APPLE BUT SIMILAR AND IT WORKED) LUCY IS 3 AND STILL WILL CHEW THINGS BUT ONLY WHEN SOMEONE IS HOME. HER CRATE IS NOT USED ANYMORE BUT SHE STILL WILL SLEEP IN IT AS THE DOOR IS ALWAYS OPEN. SHE CHEWED HER BED AND TOOK OUT THE STUFFFING SO I GOT HER A NEW ONE AND SHE DOES THE SAME THING. SHE DOESNT TAKE IT OUT OF HER CRATE WHEN SHE'S HOME ALONE BUT IN THE EVENING SHE WILL TAKE IT OUT AND WANT TO CHEW IT. MUST BE OUT OF FRUSTRATION OR SOMETHING. IT TOOK AWHILE FOR ME TO FEEL COMFORTABLE NOT CRATING HER AS SHE CAN GET INTO ALOT BUT DID VERY WELL.NO PROBLEMS AT ALL. I JUST SHUT OFF THE ROOMS I WANTED TO KEEP HER AWAY FROM AND SHE LEAVES THE PILLOWS ALONE ON THE COUCH. SHE WAS INTO TOILET PAPER ALOT WHEN SHE WAS A PUP AND SHE STILL WILL TAKE THINGS FROM THE BATHROOM TRASH CAN IF YOU LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN. EACH PUP HAS THEIR OWN TIMEFRAME AS FAR AS HOW QUICK THEY CAN LEARN AND YOURS WILL TOO. LEAVE ALONE FOR SHORT HOURS THEN EXTEND.
I ALSO WILL POST THIS SITE FOR A PET STAIN CLEANER THAT I THINK WORKS BETTER THAN NATURES MIRACLE. I HAVE 2 CATS AND 2 DOGS AND HAVE TRIED MANY AND SOME LEFT THE STAIN OR THE SMELL BUT THIS ONE HONESTLY WILL TAKE AWAY BOTH. IT'S GREAT. GOOD LUCK TO YOU AND THINK ABOUT USING THE CRATE IT WILL BENEFIT YOU BOTH IN THE LONG RUN. WWW.JUSTSTAINSANDODORS.COM |
tgir wrote: At this point, I am at my wits' end. Help!
Patch was around a year old when I got her - she was housetrained but had a tough time adjusting to my schedule. And, she would look at me and squat - it would infuriate me. But, i knew we had to learn one another's schedule - and she had to get adjusted to her new home and surroundings. She was in a shelter for a month before I adopted her so that didn't help housetraining either. I never crated her, but would gate off parts of the house. I was so frustrated at times, but also realized she confused about a new home situation. Stick it out - it will be ok soon. We've all suffered the frustration of house training so I think we can feel your pain. |
| I'm a little nervous about posting this, but things have improved dramatically in the past few days. Thankfully. Sophie's new favorite spot to pee is my flower bed, but progress is progress. Sigh. |
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